15:58:43 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #tt
15:58:43 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2020/03/12-tt-irc
15:58:45 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
15:58:46 <Zakim> Meeting: Timed Text Working Group Teleconference
15:59:11 <nigel> Previous meeting: https://www.w3.org/2020/03/05-tt-minutes.html
15:59:19 <nigel> Agenda: https://github.com/w3c/ttwg/issues/100
16:00:14 <cyril> cyril has joined #tt
16:00:33 <nigel> Regrets: Glenn
16:00:36 <nigel> Present: Nigel
16:00:39 <nigel> Chair: Nigel, Gary
16:00:43 <nigel> scribe: nigel
16:00:49 <nigel> rrsagent, make minutes v2
16:00:49 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/03/12-tt-minutes.html nigel
16:02:09 <cyril> scribe: Cyril
16:02:16 <nigel> Present+ Andreas, Cyril, Gary
16:02:36 <cyril> agenda: https://github.com/w3c/ttwg/issues/100
16:03:07 <cyril> Topic: This meeting
16:04:25 <cyril> nigel: for today, we have a bunch of incoming comments from APA on IMSC. we need to iterate and see if we need a change before CR or not
16:04:43 <cyril> nigel: we have IMSC1.2 CR but not sure we need to discuss
16:04:52 <cyril> nigel: only one AOB item for the DST issue
16:05:30 <cyril> topic: IMSC 1.2
16:05:48 <cyril> pal: I have an update to the IMSC test reel
16:05:52 <atsushi> (will be here shortly - last call continuing)
16:06:03 <cyril> ... I was hoping plh would be here and have progress on it
16:06:10 <atai2> atai2 has joined #tt
16:07:17 <atsushi> present+
16:07:28 <nigel> Present+ Pierre, Atsushi
16:08:08 <cyril> nigel: we have issues 519 to 524 that concern accessibility
16:08:21 <nigel> Topic: APA WG comment: Reference to WCAG 2.1 imsc#519
16:08:25 <nigel> github: https://github.com/w3c/imsc/issues/519
16:08:58 <cyril> nigel: they are suggesting that we do a change about WACG
16:09:33 <cyril> ... change 'recommends' to 'requires'
16:09:48 <cyril> ... D.1 does not say it's not normative
16:09:54 <cyril> ... so that would be a normative change
16:10:26 <cyril> ... we have to do that before publishing CR?
16:10:41 <cyril> pal: that's news to me because WACG are guidelines and do not use MUST or SHALL
16:10:57 <cyril> ... it was not clear to me that they were requirements
16:11:23 <cyril> nigel: they're called guidelines, they have success criteria
16:14:15 <cyril_> cyril_ has joined #tt
16:14:26 <cyril_> gkatsev: WACG has a conformance section
16:15:10 <cyril_> pal: my recommendation would be to remove the word 'recommends' and replace it with 'specifies' so that the WACG document speaks for itself, instead of us trying to interpret it
16:15:41 <cyril_> nigel: the text currently says 'recommends that an implementation provide'
16:15:59 <cyril_> ... it's not very clear if it's the implementation or the content provider
16:16:22 <cyril_> pal: in general, my preference would be to paraphrase as little as possible and point to WACG
16:16:40 <cyril_> nigel: I agree it feels uncomfortable to try to interpret another recommendation
16:16:51 <cyril_> ... I would make an adjustment to pal's proposal
16:16:59 <cyril_> ... "specifies provisions of"
16:17:14 <cyril_> pal: I can take a pass at it and propose text
16:17:26 <cyril_> nigel: it's further down as well
16:17:34 <cyril_> ... in paragraphs 5 and 6
16:17:49 <cyril_> nigel: in terms of CR, this is a change to normative text
16:18:01 <cyril_> ... I would be more comfortable delaying that by a couple of weeks
16:18:16 <cyril_> ... it's likely to have less of an impact now that if we do it later
16:18:32 <cyril_> pal: the question in my mind is: is that going to change anythign
16:18:39 <cyril_> nigel: as in what?
16:18:51 <cyril_> pal: I don't think it changes any conformance to IMSC
16:19:13 <cyril_> nigel: it does not look like we have conformance language associated with it but it is in a normative section
16:19:28 <cyril_> pal: on the basis of that one, that's not a change of requirements
16:19:36 <cyril_> ... the risk is not very high
16:19:53 <cyril_> nigel: for this specific issue, we should have an editorial pass
16:20:40 <cyril_> SUMMARY: Discussed in today's call and agreed to do an editorial pass to adjust the text so that it no longer interpret WACG guidelines as recommendations
16:21:07 <cyril_> RRSAgent, pointer
16:21:07 <RRSAgent> See https://www.w3.org/2020/03/12-tt-irc#T16-21-07
16:21:28 <cyril_> Topic: APA WG comment: Requested Additional WCAG 2.1 References
16:21:37 <cyril_> github: https://github.com/w3c/imsc/issues/520
16:22:18 <cyril_> nigel: this is going to require some work
16:22:24 <cyril_> ... that would go in section D.1
16:22:33 <cyril_> ... they all make sense
16:22:52 <cyril_> pal: at some point it becomes easier to point to the WACG spec instead of pointing to each of them
16:23:31 <cyril_> nigel: the helpful thing here would be to describe the relevant part of an IMSC document that might be used to achieve these guidelines
16:23:48 <cyril_> ... for example, for contrast in a text profile we can point to how to do it
16:24:18 <cyril_> ... 1.4.3 minimum contrast could point to color and background color
16:24:40 <cyril_> ... we could also point to xml:lang
16:25:01 <cyril_> ... the useful thing is not to re-express the guidelines but indicate the tools to do that
16:25:11 <cyril_> pal: that makes sense
16:25:18 <cyril_> ... we can give it a try
16:25:45 <cyril_> cyril: now or in a new edition?
16:26:02 <cyril_> nigel: that will not affect any processor or conformance, it's a usage guideline
16:26:35 <cyril_> ... a document author should be aware of how to use color/backgroundColor to meet these guidelines
16:26:50 <cyril_> ... this is in the same category as the previous issue #519
16:27:28 <cyril_> cyril_: how will we consider done?
16:27:36 <cyril_> nigel: we create a PR and ask them to review
16:28:48 <cyril_> SUMMARY: Discussed in today's meeting and agreed to do an editorial pass to list those additional success criteria and how to address them in the context of IMSC
16:28:53 <cyril_> Topic: APA WG comment: Add note on alt text
16:29:00 <cyril_> github: https://github.com/w3c/imsc/issues/521
16:30:03 <cyril_> pal: the text that is being suggested might already be in 5.1
16:30:22 <cyril_> ... I can take an action item to determine if the text is already present and if not, add it to the annex D
16:30:40 <cyril_> nigel: they wanted to specifically put it in the altText section
16:31:09 <cyril_> pal: we should not put where the syntax is defined but I'm happy to go through the document to make sure the concept is in
16:32:11 <cyril_> pal: that note is actually best handled in annex D when we describe how to meet the criteria
16:32:14 <cyril_> nigel: makes sense
16:34:42 <cyril_> SUMMARY: Discussed in call today. The editor will consider the best location to incorporate this advice for document authors
16:35:01 <cyril_> Topic: APA WG comment: Add introduction
16:35:08 <cyril_> github: https://github.com/w3c/imsc/issues/522
16:35:44 <cyril_> pal: before taking any action, I'd like to know if they've considered the text in 5.1
16:35:59 <cyril_> cyril_: maybe the fact that it's in 5.1 and not early
16:36:20 <cyril_> pal: exactly, happy to move some of it to an introduction if it suits them
16:37:08 <cyril_> SUMMARY: Discussed today. Pierre to ask follow-up question on this issue.
16:37:58 <cyril_> Topic: APA WG comment: Author proposes, user disposes
16:38:05 <cyril_> github: https://github.com/w3c/imsc/issues/523
16:38:49 <cyril_> nigel: we have MAUR in D.2
16:39:20 <cyril_> ... this particular issue recommends adding a note to the spec
16:39:48 <cyril_> pal: I can see what it means but the wording does not seem useful
16:40:07 <cyril_> ... as a general idea, saying that the final rendering depends on user settings, local regulation ...
16:40:22 <cyril_> ... we could say that, if don't say it already somewhere
16:40:35 <cyril_> nigel: I do have a bit of a fundamental problem
16:40:49 <cyril_> ... authors specifying layout is not an issue
16:40:54 <cyril_> ... it's a positive point
16:41:17 <cyril_> ... the authors know what's in the video when the subs will be presented
16:41:33 <cyril_> ... I get that sometimes people want to override that
16:41:48 <gkatsev> q+
16:42:19 <cyril_> gkatsev: I agree with you Nigel but on the other hand, it would be useful for author that it's going to happen
16:42:35 <cyril_> ... for example for the CVAA in the US and the font-size change
16:42:51 <cyril_> ... the captions can become too big and missing
16:43:20 <cyril_> ack gkatsev
16:43:30 <cyril_> pal: we've had this discussion many times before
16:43:41 <cyril_> ... there are different regulations in different places
16:43:50 <cyril_> ... I don't think we can summarize it in one sentenc
16:44:00 <cyril_> ... I don't know how to make a sentence that is productive
16:44:19 <cyril_> ... just saying it might not be rendered as the author intended is not sufficient
16:44:27 <cyril_> q+
16:44:50 <cyril_> nigel: we don't provide in IMSC any tools that the author can sensibly take advantage of
16:44:57 <cyril_> ... the closest is overflow and wrap option
16:45:06 <cyril_> ... but even then, they are not that useful
16:45:22 <cyril_> ... we could say don't make region as tight as possible
16:45:43 <cyril_> ... there are techniques that you can put for specific cases
16:46:12 <cyril_> ... the second point is that this guidelines is more targeted to implementers of processors rather than authors
16:46:23 <cyril_> ... we might want to get back to them to ask if they meant authors
16:46:42 <cyril_> ... because this specification says in the absence of anything else this is how to render
16:47:02 <cyril_> ... but in practice implementers have to take other things into account
16:47:28 <cyril_> pal: we could reference issue #316
16:47:38 <cyril_> ... the resolution was to add the reference to MAUR
16:48:02 <cyril_> ... my proposed disposition would be in the MAUR section to add a note along the lines of what you just mentioned
16:48:07 <nigel> scribe: nigel
16:48:11 <nigel> cyril: What about adding an example?
16:48:24 <nigel> .. We could say there are plenty of ways for authors to take into account and give
16:48:35 <nigel> .. the example like what Nigel said not to make the region too tight so the text does
16:48:37 <cyril_> cyril_: what about giving an example
16:48:38 <nigel> .. not get clipped.
16:48:47 <nigel> scribe: cyril_
16:49:06 <cyril_> pal: in section D.2
16:49:11 <cyril_> ... we have one sentence
16:49:15 <cyril_> ... we could expand on that
16:49:52 <cyril_> gkatsev: I think maybe it's enough to say that authors should specify styling and positioning and that due to MAUR it may be overriden
16:50:10 <cyril_> pal: I like that, we could say the document specifies a nominal rendering
16:50:22 <cyril_> ... I want to avoid saying 'authors'
16:50:46 <cyril_> gkatsev: the sticking point is that users can modify the rendering (not the accessibility requirements)
16:50:54 <cyril_> nigel: this is the document processing context
16:51:13 <cyril_> ... users may influence the document processing context to modify the actual presentation in order to meet the MAUR guidelines
16:51:47 <cyril_> SUMMARY: Discussed and editor to add text to D.2 to express this concept
16:52:06 <cyril_> Topic: APA WG comment: semantic layers
16:52:13 <cyril_> github: https://github.com/w3c/imsc/issues/524
16:52:55 <cyril_> nigel: TTML and IMSC permit metadata description to be specified on particular bit of information
16:53:06 <cyril_> ... there is no formal requirement to do anything on that
16:53:14 <cyril_> ... the facility to have layers exist already
16:53:47 <cyril_> ... by using e.g. ttm:role
16:54:01 <cyril_> ... but there is no normative requirement on processor to use it
16:54:30 <cyril_> ... so force content provides a clear mechanism for authors and processors to define a interoperable presentation behavior
16:55:13 <cyril_> pal: "Forced" is a very specific tool for a very specific use case
16:55:26 <cyril_> ... the broader question is how to indicate the semantics of timed text
16:56:07 <cyril_> ... how to get the consistency across the ecosystem but that's beyond the scope of IMSC
16:56:35 <nigel> q?
16:56:36 <cyril_> q?
16:56:38 <nigel> ack cy
16:56:39 <cyril_> ack
16:57:21 <cyril_> SUMMARY: this is a really interesting topic, but we don't think we can make any useful change to IMSC in response to this comment
16:58:03 <cyril_> SUMMARY: TTWG suggests this should be the beginning of a conversion with APA and other interested parties
16:58:23 <cyril_> Topic: CFC
16:58:29 <cyril_> nigel: there were no objections
16:58:47 <cyril_> ... the editorial passes that we agreed to do, do not affect the normative parts
16:59:09 <cyril_> ... my proposal would be to say that the CFC is approved for CR publication
16:59:22 <cyril_> ... and we'll address the APA issues during CR phase
16:59:24 <cyril_> cyril_: +1
16:59:31 <cyril_> pal: good
16:59:41 <cyril_> nigel: no objection
17:00:10 <cyril_> s/no objection/it seems there is no objection from the group/
17:00:51 <cyril_> RESOLUTION: Publish IMSC1.2 CR on March 19th
17:03:45 <nigel> scribe: nigel
17:04:05 <nigel> Nigel: I think that gives Atsushi what he needs and the action moves to Pierre and Atsushi
17:04:14 <nigel> .. to get the materials ready for publication. Thanks everyone for that.
17:04:23 <nigel> Topic: AOB - #104
17:04:38 <nigel> Nigel: [short of time] Can we take this offline or defer until next week?
17:04:51 <nigel> Atsushi: Yes, if someone who can open ics files could check the file in the pull request
17:04:58 <nigel> .. please that would be very helpful?
17:05:05 <nigel> Nigel: I will try to do that. Others welcome to also.
17:05:08 <nigel> Topic: Meeting close
17:05:28 <nigel> Nigel: Thank you everyone, and thank you Cyril for scribing. I found that really interesting.
17:05:42 <nigel> .. We're out of time so I'll adjourn now, see you next week. [adjourns meeting]
17:05:47 <nigel> rrsagent, make minutes v2
17:05:47 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/03/12-tt-minutes.html nigel
17:06:33 <nigel> i/gkatsev: WACG has a conformance section/scribe: cyril_
17:06:40 <nigel> rrsagent, make minutes v2
17:06:40 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/03/12-tt-minutes.html nigel
17:07:52 <nigel> s/specifies provisions of/specifies provision of
17:08:35 <nigel> c/WACG/WCAG/g
17:08:40 <nigel> s|c/WACG/WCAG/g||
17:08:44 <nigel> s/WACG/WCAG/g
17:10:05 <nigel> s/one sentenc/one sentence
17:10:38 <nigel> s/that this guidelines is more targeted/that this note is more targeted
17:11:18 <nigel> s/cyril_: what about giving an example//
17:11:53 <nigel> s/this is the document processing context/the formal term we can make use of here is the "document processing context"
17:13:01 <nigel> s/ack//
17:13:22 <nigel> zakim, end meeting
17:13:22 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Nigel, Andreas, Cyril, Gary, atsushi, Pierre
17:13:24 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
17:13:24 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/03/12-tt-minutes.html Zakim
17:13:27 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, nigel; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
17:13:31 <Zakim> Zakim has left #tt
17:14:28 <nigel> scribeOptions: -final -noEmbedDiagnostics
17:14:33 <nigel> Present- atsushi
17:14:36 <nigel> Present+ Atsushi
17:14:44 <nigel> rrsagent, make minutes v2
17:14:44 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/03/12-tt-minutes.html nigel
17:18:30 <atsushi> nigel, you might get notice, filed CR transition request on imsc1.2 as https://github.com/w3c/transitions/issues/234
17:18:46 <atsushi> (note, still draft!)
17:37:14 <nigel> github-bot, end topic
17:52:18 <atsushi> (please feel free to edit/suggest via email/kick me/etc. on that; I should have prepared well before on that - hope schedule will work on time...)
18:14:40 <nigel> nigel has joined #tt
18:15:23 <nigel> nigel has joined #tt
18:16:09 <nigel> nigel has joined #tt
18:16:57 <nigel_> nigel_ has joined #tt
18:18:02 <nigel> nigel has joined #tt