20:48:48 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #dxwg
20:48:48 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2020/01/14-dxwg-irc
20:48:54 <PWinstanley> rrsagent, make logs public
20:49:03 <PWinstanley> chair: PWinstanley
20:49:06 <PWinstanley> present+
20:49:22 <PWinstanley> regrets+ Makx, DaveBrowning
20:49:28 <PWinstanley> meeting: DXWG Plenary
20:49:44 <PWinstanley> agenda: https://www.w3.org/2017/dxwg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2020.01.14
20:50:23 <PWinstanley> rrsagent, create minutes v2
20:50:23 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/01/14-dxwg-minutes.html PWinstanley
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21:02:40 <riccardoAlbertoni> present+
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21:03:50 <alejandra> present+
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21:03:56 <alejandra> scribenick alejandra
21:04:11 <SimonCox> present+
21:04:27 <roba_> present+
21:04:29 <PWinstanley> agenda https://www.w3.org/2017/dxwg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2020.01.14
21:04:33 <antoine> present+
21:04:36 <Ana> Present+
21:04:45 <plh> plh has joined #dxwg
21:04:50 <plh> present+
21:04:51 <Caroline> Caroline has joined #DXWG
21:04:51 <alejandra> scribenick: alejandra
21:04:57 <Caroline> Present+ Caroline
21:05:08 <alejandra> rrsagent, generate minutes v2
21:05:08 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/01/14-dxwg-minutes.html alejandra
21:05:52 <alejandra> PWinstanley: no minutes to look at but catching up with latest stuff from last year
21:06:03 <alejandra> ... we'll start off with revision of re-charter
21:06:18 <alejandra> ... 13 Support; 3 abstain; 1 against but not by Formal Objection
21:06:34 <alejandra> ... the against was peculiar
21:06:43 <alejandra> ... [reading comment]
21:06:51 <AndreaPerego> AndreaPerego has joined #dxwg
21:06:58 <AndreaPerego> present+
21:06:59 <alejandra> ... philippe, have you got any comment?
21:07:13 <alejandra> plh: not everyone needs to like everything
21:07:36 <alejandra> ... my approach would be: thanks for your feedback but we need to consider all the comments
21:07:46 <AndreaPerego> RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
21:07:46 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/01/14-dxwg-minutes.html AndreaPerego
21:07:47 <alejandra> ... it wasn't a formal objection
21:08:17 <alejandra> PWinstanley: in the last charter, we had a challenge on getting traction on supposedly competing standards
21:08:33 <alejandra> ... probably we need to make sure we have better degree of engagement from the start
21:08:47 <alejandra> plh: we have a recommendation
21:08:57 <alejandra> ... we have DCAT2 to maintain now
21:09:19 <alejandra> ... I'm not going to be answering the question on what is the scope from the consortium
21:09:38 <alejandra> PWinstanley: enagement and giving people a rationale for all that we are doing, it is something we need to keep at the front of our minds
21:09:46 <alejandra> ... anyone else want to comment?
21:09:51 <PWinstanley> q?
21:09:56 <roba_> q+
21:10:00 <PWinstanley> ack roba_
21:10:14 <alejandra> roba_: the experience from OGC is that there is a tension between standard process and tooling
21:10:38 <alejandra> ... perhaps we haven't done here systematically is work out where the momentum in the community is
21:10:46 <alejandra> ... where is the community we want to influence looking
21:11:10 <alejandra> ... the technologies that have momentum/adherence
21:11:15 <alejandra> ... interoperability
21:11:39 <alejandra> PWinstanley: we have lots of people that signed up to the group, but we've only have a dozen who joins in hte conversion let alone the meetings
21:11:55 <alejandra> ... they are from W3C member organisations
21:12:09 <alejandra> ... it'd be helpful to get additional points of view
21:12:14 <alejandra> s/view/views
21:12:27 <alejandra> ... especially if we move to evergreen standards
21:12:27 <Caroline> Q+
21:12:31 <AndreaPerego> q+
21:12:31 <alejandra> ... anything else?
21:12:36 <PWinstanley> ack Caroline
21:12:59 <alejandra> Caroline: we talked about that at the office and we're going to try to engage more Brazilians too
21:13:15 <alejandra> ... not only that, maybe it would be nice for each of us to try and bring someone else
21:13:26 <alejandra> ... brainstorming and think about who to engage
21:13:40 <PWinstanley> ack AndreaPerego
21:13:42 <alejandra> ... there might be organizations not even aware of the working group
21:14:04 <alejandra> AndreaPerego: my two cents - we should probably consider that it is a particular situation
21:14:12 <alejandra> ... DCAT was already standard and we extended it
21:14:24 <alejandra> ... supporting backward compatibility
21:14:31 <alejandra> ... people were looking at what we were doing
21:14:48 <alejandra> ... when we went to CR we started getting feedback
21:15:13 <alejandra> ... on the other side, because DCAT is already implemented, the profiles such as those done in Europe, they just included the new version
21:15:22 <alejandra> ... from them we got some feedback at the end of the process
21:15:33 <alejandra> ... in a new standard, the situation may be different
21:15:40 <alejandra> ... people are seeing what is going to happen
21:15:56 <alejandra> rrsagent, generate minutes v2
21:15:56 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/01/14-dxwg-minutes.html alejandra
21:16:07 <AndreaPerego> +1
21:16:12 <AndreaPerego> q+
21:16:14 <alejandra> PWinstanley: this conversation can be go on and on, but we should consider it from time to time
21:16:18 <PWinstanley> ack AndreaPerego
21:16:33 <alejandra> AndreaPerego: I cannot see the comments
21:16:48 <alejandra> same problem for me too (Alejandra)
21:16:54 <antoine> I see them
21:17:21 <alejandra> I got a message "Not allowed"
21:17:46 <alejandra> AndreaPerego: before I used to be able to see the comments
21:17:51 <antoine> q+
21:17:59 <alejandra> plh: this is member only
21:18:06 <PWinstanley> ack antoine
21:18:38 <alejandra> antoine: about these comments, which I can see, the person who didn't suppor the charter also has some comments on the document licenses and that the charter history is not completely accurate
21:18:48 <alejandra> ... I'm seeing the comments but not the charter now
21:19:05 <alejandra> plh: for the charter history, I'll fix it
21:19:13 <alejandra> ... for the license, I'd like to discuss with the group
21:19:24 <alejandra> ... the question is: DCAT Rec is supposed to use document license
21:19:37 <alejandra> ... we unintentionally switched to Software & Doc license
21:19:52 <alejandra> ... most of the groups don't use the document license
21:19:55 <alejandra> ... but use the new one
21:20:14 <antoine> sounds ok!
21:20:15 <AndreaPerego> q+
21:20:17 <alejandra> ... which allows the spec to be forked
21:20:38 <alejandra> ... we concluded that using the doc license to prevent the spec to being forked
21:20:46 <alejandra> ... makes no sense
21:21:05 <alejandra> ... most of the specs can be forked nowaways and in practice it doesn't happen now
21:21:11 <PWinstanley> ack AndreaPerego
21:21:17 <alejandra> ... my recommendation is to switch to a more open license
21:21:18 <alejandra> +w
21:21:21 <alejandra> +q
21:21:34 <roba_> q+
21:21:41 <plh> https://www.w3.org/2019/11/proposed-dx-wg-charter-2019.html
21:21:53 <plh> https://www.w3.org/Consortium/Legal/2015/copyright-software-and-document
21:22:10 <alejandra> AndreaPerego: what license we can use?
21:22:15 <PWinstanley> ack alejandra
21:23:32 <PWinstanley> alejandra: when I was editing something on the doc we had a list convo about this - we were looking at the license on the ttl and there is a distinction between the doc and the ontology.  Do we use the same, or different?
21:23:51 <AndreaPerego> q+
21:23:53 <alejandra> plh: it is as CC with attributions (not legal comment)
21:24:05 <SimonCox> Note that Wikidata will only use ontologies with CC0 license
21:24:10 <alejandra> ... I see no reason not to use the same license for the ontology
21:24:11 <PWinstanley> plh: the licence is not CC0.  We should use the same licence for doc and ttl
21:24:19 <SimonCox> q+
21:24:34 <PWinstanley> alejandra: I agree- that is what I would have suggested
21:24:36 <PWinstanley> q?
21:24:42 <PWinstanley> ack roba_
21:25:00 <alejandra> roba_: people who are using the spec tend to go to the usable artifacts
21:25:12 <alejandra> ... if something is not well documented is an issue
21:25:50 <antoine> @SimonCox: Wikidata "duplicates" every ontology they want to use anyway. There are not many statements in Wikidata that use non-Wikidate classes and properties.
21:26:04 <riccardoAlbertoni> in the turtle we are using https://www.w3.org/Consortium/Legal/2015/copyright-software-and-document
21:26:06 <PWinstanley> ack AndreaPerego
21:26:07 <alejandra> FYI: this is the link to the discussion in the mailing list: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-dxwg-wg/2019Dec/0068.html
21:26:25 <alejandra> and I had mentioned CC-BY
21:26:37 <alejandra> so happy that the W3C one is similar
21:26:51 <alejandra> AndreaPerego: is there a sharealike requirement? can it be commercial?
21:27:05 <alejandra> plh: you need to attribute the work, with or without modification
21:27:06 <SimonCox> yes @antoine - that is because very few published ontologies are licensed CC0
21:27:12 <alejandra> ... include disclaimers...
21:27:19 <alejandra> ... if you make changes, you need to document them
21:27:29 <PWinstanley> ack SimonCox
21:27:58 <antoine> q+
21:28:05 <alejandra> SimonCox: I've already noted in the thread that wikidata takes an attitute that they don't reuse any ontology that doesn't have a CC0 license
21:28:24 <alejandra> ... I suggest a conversation between W3C and Wikidata should happen
21:28:34 <alejandra> ... vocabularies for general purpose
21:28:45 <alejandra> ... unfortunate that Wikidata cannot use them directly
21:28:58 <alejandra> ... antoine mentioned that they use to clone vocabularies
21:29:08 <alejandra> ... but my understanding is that it is not their preference
21:29:21 <alejandra> ... but they do it when there isn't an appropriate license
21:29:47 <alejandra> ... if we use the w3c URIs the attribution is given via the URI reference
21:29:54 <alejandra> ... and for the ontology then we could have CC0
21:30:32 <alejandra> action: plh to ask W3C legal if we can use CC0 for the ontology given the Wikipedia terms
21:30:32 <trackbot> Created ACTION-385 - Ask w3c legal if we can use cc0 for the ontology given the wikipedia terms [on Philippe Le Hégaret - due 2020-01-21].
21:30:35 <AndreaPerego> RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
21:30:35 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/01/14-dxwg-minutes.html AndreaPerego
21:30:58 <roba_> q+
21:31:17 <alejandra> plh: legal process is stretch
21:31:27 <alejandra> ... I'll see if I can get a 'yes' from them
21:31:44 <PWinstanley> ack antoine
21:32:02 <alejandra> antoine: I'm not extremely convinced by the wikidata argument in the moment
21:32:15 <alejandra> ... I was shocked to say that they clone ontologies
21:32:20 <alejandra> ...I'd be in favour of CC0
21:32:39 <alejandra> ... and I'd be in favour of discussing with Wikidata
21:32:44 <plh> https://github.com/w3c/dxwg/issues/1192
21:32:52 <alejandra> plh: another question about the spec
21:33:01 <alejandra> ... issue about using the proper license
21:33:10 <alejandra> ... willing that people are willing to change to the more open license
21:33:18 <alejandra> ... do we have to fix that issue?
21:33:42 <alejandra> proposed: close issue https://github.com/w3c/dxwg/issues/1192 without action
21:34:00 <alejandra> resolution is that we keep the license 'software and document' license
21:34:09 <alejandra> so, keeping the most open license
21:34:11 <SimonCox> ... i.e. the more open license
21:34:37 <alejandra> plh: if we get the new charter approved, we can squeeze it in the new charter
21:34:40 <antoine> q+
21:35:13 <PWinstanley> ack antoine
21:35:21 <alejandra> antoine: struggling to understand if this is the issue that we want
21:35:40 <alejandra> +1 to use the more open license
21:35:51 <PWinstanley> +1
21:35:55 <antoine> +1
21:35:56 <riccardoAlbertoni> +1 to use the more open license
21:35:57 <roba_> +1
21:35:59 <AndreaPerego> +1
21:36:06 <SimonCox> +1
21:36:12 <Caroline> +1
21:36:22 <Ana> +1
21:36:25 <alejandra> resolved:  close issue https://github.com/w3c/dxwg/issues/1192 without action (meaning that we will use the more open license for the spec)
21:36:31 <AndreaPerego> RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
21:36:31 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/01/14-dxwg-minutes.html AndreaPerego
21:36:56 <annette_g> annette_g has joined #dxwg
21:37:03 <alejandra> plh: I'll get approval for new charter by next week
21:37:05 <PWinstanley> ack roba_
21:37:21 <alejandra> roba_: wanted to make sure we don't loose the other important point Simon made
21:37:29 <alejandra> ... about dereferrencing of identifiers
21:37:38 <alejandra> ... check if we can have CC0
21:37:38 <annette_g> Hey, all, sorry to be so late. We're in maintenance mode at the supercomputing center, and I had to put out some fires.
21:37:51 <alejandra> ... and then check if dereferencing is a valid form of attribution
21:38:08 <alejandra> ... we need to have an understanding of that from W3C in general, and probably also OGC
21:38:31 <alejandra> PWinstanley: we need to select the meeting time
21:38:41 <AndreaPerego> topic: meeting time
21:38:41 <Caroline> Q+
21:38:44 <AndreaPerego> RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
21:38:44 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/01/14-dxwg-minutes.html AndreaPerego
21:38:48 <PWinstanley> ack Caroline
21:38:51 <alejandra> ... this time is difficult for Caroline in a regular basis
21:38:59 <alejandra> ... but would find Wednesday easier
21:39:07 <annette_g> present+
21:39:11 <alejandra> Caroline: I think I'd be available
21:39:21 <SimonCox> (To determine meeting timing we should do a poll - e.g. using Doodle)
21:39:25 <alejandra> PWinstanley: are people happy to keep this time or should we consider other times?
21:39:37 <AndreaPerego> +1 from me to keep the current time.
21:39:40 <SimonCox> This time OK
21:39:43 <alejandra> PWinstanley: is there a need for a call?
21:39:56 <alejandra> s/call/poll
21:39:59 <roba_> we are a self-selecting sample of course :-(
21:40:07 <alejandra> proposed: we keep this time
21:40:10 <riccardoAlbertoni> +1
21:40:11 <AndreaPerego> +1
21:40:13 <plh> +1
21:40:14 <PWinstanley> +1
21:40:14 <alejandra> +1
21:40:14 <annette_g> +1
21:40:16 <roba_> +1
21:40:17 <antoine> +0
21:40:18 <SimonCox> +1
21:40:25 <alejandra> resolved: we keep this time
21:40:25 <Caroline> +1
21:40:49 <alejandra> topic: DCAT2
21:41:00 <alejandra> PWinstanley: we have the member only results
21:41:18 <alejandra> ... 10 support; 3 abstain; 1 suggestion of changes
21:41:34 <plh> https://github.com/w3c/dxwg/milestone/24
21:41:50 <alejandra> plh: we need to see the issues in that milestone
21:42:09 <riccardoAlbertoni> +q
21:42:23 <PWinstanley> ack riccardoAlbertoni
21:42:55 <alejandra> riccardoAlbertoni: we have resolved most of the issues
21:43:00 <alejandra> ... several 'due for closing'
21:43:20 <alejandra> ... some other issues plh has assigned himself
21:43:35 <alejandra> ... 1182 and 1177 are open but I think we can close them
21:44:08 <alejandra> +q
21:44:24 <alejandra> PWinstanley: are people happy for riccardoAlbertoni to lead this?
21:44:39 <alejandra> riccardoAlbertoni: next two days, I'll be busy
21:44:39 <PWinstanley> ack alejandra
21:45:11 <PWinstanley> alejandra: that is fine - if riccardoAlbertoni can lead then others can review -  I've been doing this recently
21:45:39 <alejandra> plh: riccardoAlbertoni will you give me the document or do you want me to generate from github?
21:45:46 <alejandra> riccardoAlbertoni: is there a procedure for this?
21:46:40 <alejandra> plh: focus on the issues and let me know and I can point you to the tools or run them myself
21:46:56 <alejandra> PWinstanley: reminder about discussion on papers and blog posts, etc
21:47:05 <alejandra> ... put them around and get quick feedback
21:47:58 <alejandra> ... perhaps different languages and different audiences
21:48:55 <alejandra> PWinstanley: are we going to break out the github for one repo per document?
21:49:03 <alejandra> I think that would be good
21:49:21 <roba_> +1 to split up and reset issue chaos
21:49:23 <alejandra> topic: Conneg
21:49:29 <antoine> I prefer to keep the same repo. Issues may be about several deliverables...
21:49:36 <SimonCox> According to Phillipe the DXWG is unusual in not having split the repo from the beginning!
21:49:50 <AndreaPerego> Same opinion of antoine
21:50:14 <alejandra> roba_: as nick is not here, I'll take the discussion on conneg
21:50:18 <plh> (indeed)
21:50:24 <SimonCox> (Git subtree command allows you to split the repo and keep the history)
21:50:37 <alejandra> ... my understanding is that nic has been following the W3C process for PWD3
21:50:55 <alejandra> PWinstanley: we voted towards the end of last year to take it forward
21:51:22 <alejandra> (but we won't get the split of the issues)
21:51:39 <plh> https://w3c.github.io/transitions/nextstep.html?shortname=dx-prof-conneg
21:52:23 <alejandra> roba_: I've got an extended contract with OGC and will extend conversations engaging various organisations
21:53:26 <alejandra> topic: prof
21:53:32 <alejandra> roba_: same situation
21:53:48 <alejandra> ... ready to be published as a note
21:53:53 <plh> https://w3c.github.io/transitions/nextstep.html?shortname=dx-prof
21:53:54 <plh> q+
21:54:09 <PWinstanley> ack plh
21:54:21 <alejandra> plh: it's been published as a note in mid Dec
21:54:45 <alejandra> ... it can be updated anytime
21:55:01 <alejandra> RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
21:55:01 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/01/14-dxwg-minutes.html alejandra
21:55:22 <alejandra> PWinstanley: remaining topic was open actions
21:55:44 <alejandra> https://www.w3.org/2017/dxwg/track/actions/open
21:56:43 <alejandra> 382 can be closed
21:56:56 <plh> close action-382
21:56:56 <trackbot> Closed action-382.
21:57:07 <alejandra> 242?
21:57:20 <plh> action-338?
21:57:20 <trackbot> action-338 -- Antoine Isaac to Handle definition in 662 re profiles and media types in Profile Guidance -- due 2019-06-18 -- OPEN
21:57:20 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/2017/dxwg/track/actions/338
21:57:27 <alejandra> PWinstanley: related to 242 is 338
21:57:53 <alejandra> PWinstanley: small taxonomy of profiles
21:58:06 <alejandra> ... data profiles and talk about them in isolation
21:58:36 <alejandra> ... if we're going to do anything on profiles it has to be very focused
21:58:38 <roba_> q+
21:58:43 <PWinstanley> ack roba_
21:59:04 <alejandra> roba_: ADMS is a note and declares itself a profile of DCAT
21:59:22 <alejandra> ... can we look at the W3C cannon and note how they relate to each other
21:59:33 <alejandra> ... we might get a sense on how to do things
21:59:46 <alejandra> ... keen to keep it open
21:59:58 <alejandra> ... not sure to specify what we want to do now
22:00:36 <alejandra> PWinstanley: we'll meet up same time next week
22:00:45 <roba_> bye
22:00:45 <SimonCox> bye
22:00:46 <riccardoAlbertoni> nye
22:00:47 <PWinstanley> rrsagent, create minutes v2
22:00:47 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/01/14-dxwg-minutes.html PWinstanley
22:00:52 <alejandra> RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
22:00:52 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/01/14-dxwg-minutes.html alejandra
22:01:34 <Ana> * thank you, bye
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