<Julian_Calderazi> by the way. commuting. can't scribe

<Madeleine> hello

scribe+

Avneesh: The previous meeting for this document was a few month ago
... we got a lot of direction and action items from the meeting
... Gregorio and Charles have made many edits and substantial progress
... so we think it is in time to have another meeting to discuss it
... some other distributors are implementing, and Julian has implemented it

Julian_Calderazi: We implemented it on copyright pages

<Julian_Calderazi> we implemented it on the copyright pages on epubs

<Julian_Calderazi> not on a website.

Avneesh: Gregorio and Charles, can you provide an update?

gpellegrino: Charles and I have split the document into three documents

<Avneesh> https://w3c.github.io/publ-a11y/UX-Guide-Metadata/

gpellegrino: the first one is the principles, how to display accessibility metadata
... two techniques, one on ONIX and one on Schema metadata
... techniques for implementors with links back to the principles
... what we need to do in the CG is to elaborate the text on the different forms of metadata
... some of the sections are only titles, no explanation or text
... we need short descriptions for each
... the techniques are ok, please review, but the principles need the most work

Avneesh: From the high level view, the document is designed in two layers, the principles apply to whatever metadata format you use
... the secondary layer is techniques, which would be updated more frequently
... it currently supports ONIX and Schema, but could be expanded to MARQ or others
... could we get an update from Madeline?

Madeleine: The update is that I've been working with Editeur on the schema and ONIX harmonization, there have been some additions to ONIX
... I have a note out to meet with Graham, and I can provide an update once we've met
... there are a few that won't be implemented, that are features of reading systems not metadata
... there are some where, for example "screenreader friendly" but ONIX requires a number of fields and makes it more complicated
... the crosswalk page is complicated in trying to explain that
... I hope to have something clearer in ONIX
... those are some areas I am hoping to see improvement

<gpellegrino> http://www.a11ymetadata.org/the-specification/metadata-crosswalk/

laudrain: I wanted to mention, with Gregorio, we sent to Graham some new codes we wanted to add to ONIX
... I have not heard back about our request

<Zakim> laudrain, you wanted to ask julien for web site url

laudrain: we wanted to add codes about tables, content navigation, contracts, complex image descriptions
... we can share that here
... we hope it can be added to ONIX soon
... I had a question about the cross walk, the missing hazard features in ONIX
... is that in review?

Madeleine: The flashing hazard was agreed to be a good addition
... one of the latest versions of ONIX might have it
... I think that the less common hazards (motion simulation and sound) are not included yet
... the most likely outcome is that the flashing hazard will be adopted

laudrain: There's a proposal circulating, we will add it

Avneesh: This is a WIP, it's a progressive change to the documents

Madeleine: Separating them like this is helpful

Avneesh: Nice to see progress

George: I was in Washington DC last week, we are continuing to try to find someone in MARQ
... they're meeting soon and we'll try to advocate for this
... when we get someone from a different metadata group
... what do we expect them to do?
... create a crosswalk from Schema to their standard?
... once they do that, they can use the UX guide to inform the changes
... is that the work mode we expect?

Madeleine: Yes, the cross walk gives you the basics of where to look
... but the principles and techniques are really useful for implementers
... the community is the best source

George: They would then develop their own techniques

Madeleine: I think so

laudrain: My impression is that MARQ is completely new to accessibility and will look at our documents
... there has been some conversion from ONIX to MARQ in France
... first they have to consider where and how to add the accessibility metadata to their own standard
... they'll look at the source (ONIX from publishers) and adapt from there
... it's a bit too soon to describe the process

Madeleine: If they don't have it yet, it will be a longer process to add it

George: I believe they have added an accessibility section in the last year, referencing Schema
... but we need a representative from them

laudrain: It would be useful to give me the information before the meeting in January
... if you have any information, I can also do my own research

Avneesh: The outcomes that George mentioned are correct, the crosswalk work is provided by the principles document
... the two outcomes are the crosswalk and priorities provided by the principles document
... let's move on to the next topic
... what are the improvements?
... we have some fundamental pieces there already
... I see the improvements in two parts, the technical improvements
... are there corrections required
... the second level is language/definitions improvement
... I hope many of us have gone through the document

Madeleine: I'm pleased to hear that there's more text to be added
... I'm wondering if there is a good place to draw that text from
... Schema doesn't have the best definitions, but W3C might?
... W3 Web Schemas
... there are some short descriptions, but I don't know if they're suitable
... the accessibility summary has a description we can use
... do we want a definition or an explanation

gpellegrino: I think that the goal in the principles is why this information is useful for the end users
... we don't explain how to represent it
... we need to explain some terms like "screenreader friendly"

Madeleine: I thought we had done that

George: I agree with Gregorio that we find out what we need from schema in terms of definitions and terms, but I am not sure where everything goes
... schema.org is the authoritative place for the information
... once we have it, we have everyone review and sign off
... the question is do we need to have writing assignments and due dates for everyone?

Avneesh: One part is the definitions, do you want contributions in a wiki and then add it to the principles page?

gpellegrino: Somthing like that, or a shared spreadsheet is useful

Avneesh: Github has the wiki, which we can use

gpellegrino: That's fine

Avneesh: We can work on it in the wiki and then move on to the formal page
... should we open issues in the github issue tracker to log anything we find

<Avneesh> https://github.com/w3c/publ-a11y/issues

gpellegrino: I would think that would help

Avneesh: I have provided the link for the tracker
... this is how we can move ahead
... the next question is about editing, Gregorio and Charles are you ok to continue or do you need help?

gpellegrino: I am ok, this is my first time editing a W3C document

<Madeleine> +q

Avneesh: Would anyone like to help edit?

<Julian_Calderazi> I'll join

George: I can help with writing descriptions
... managing the github docket is not something I'm familiar with

Avneesh: Others can do the commits

Madeleine: I am happy to help if you need another editor, but I'm also happy to help with the writing!

Avneesh: Julian has also volunteered
... what should be the deadline?
... for the first draft

gpellegrino: We need all of the descriptions

Madeleine: is there a submission deadline?

Avneesh: No, there is no deadline
... the first draft will be all of the definitions and main pieces, things can be in pending status
... we are also close to the end of the year and holidaus
... is end of February a reasonable timeline?

Madeleine: End of January for writing submission to be completed

<Julian_Calderazi> +1 for en of Feb

<Julian_Calderazi> end*

Avneesh: We can start the wiki page for the definitions

George: Will the wiki list the missing definitions

Avneesh: Yes, this list in the principles document, we need those defined
... we have a good list of action items
... anything else we want to highlight?
... I have the list, but I will open github issue things
... the main landing page with the techniques
... when you click the links, it opens the pages
... perhaps the techniques should link on the same page
... other issue is for conformance, EPUB Accessibility, WCAG A, AA, AAA, but what if something is not conforming to EPUB accessibility but to WCAG or something else
... would the better way be to change the placement of the requirement
... it's currently EPUB Accessibility: WCAG etc.

George: Thinking about our future move to becoming more generic for publishing
... we'll probably have to do this for the EU directive
... you might have non-EPUB publications
... it seems like there are EPUB-specific requirements
... that are independent of WCAG
... conformsTo Accessibility Summary, but not WCAG

laudrain: I agree that it could be confusing to have the multiple requirements
... we have this document called EPUB Accessibility that is not just for EPUB
... it's a big question
... I am afraid now that we've started with the ISO process, can we change the name?

Avneesh: We cannot change the name
... changing might be possible, but we're starting the final ballot now
... there's many things are EPUB-specific
... it would require a lot of redrafting

laudrain: I don't want to change the name, but would it help to make the change you're suggesting?

Avneesh: This came from what George mentioned with not all documents being EPUB (web publications, audiobooks, etc)
... it would be helpful to not be so tied up in EPUB3
... one more issue was in ONIX
... when we talk about hazards, it does not say anything about it not being included in ONIX

gpellegrino: Please raise it in the tracker

Avneesh: These were the main issues
... do we want to have another call in January, February?
... is it a good idea to have a call in late Jan or early Feb
... or more frequent calls?

<Julian_Calderazi> @laudrain wrote you via zoom chat.

Madeleine: It would be useful to have a working group call for the contributors
... or we can just comment on each other's work
... might be helpful to get together

Avneesh: Perhaps a call in mid-january then
... after everyone returns from the break
... I will send a doodle poll
... anything else?

George: I just want to know when I'm assigned a thing, when you send out the list of definitions, do we have a template
... description followed by rationale, make it standard

Avneesh: I'll create the page

George: Who will write what?

Avneesh: Have two or three people do the first pass

Madeleine: There are 10, 3 people could handle 3-4

George: Unless there's one someone doesn't understand

Avneesh: I can assign them on the wiki page
... everyone is qualified to work on them
... I'll do a random assignment

George: Avneesh is going to send out links to the wiki with work assignments

Avneesh: There's some missing pieces, these need to be fixed

Madeleine: Even just to say it's not available

George: I'm still unclear about the relationship between the principles document and the official information on Schema.org

Charles: when you mention schema you mean W3C's wiki on hazards and things
... we have control over that, Matt and I can edit it
... if there's things missing or need clarification, we can do that

Madeleine: I think we were hoping to take definitions from that page
... but it would be good to share back

Avneesh: When we wrote EPUB Accessibility, we made a lot of improvements to the wiki page based on that as well
... like conformsTo

Charles: I updated that page when we did that work
... it's not complete
... weren't we also trying to come up with a more formal document?
... the w3c wiki with definitions, there was some objection to it just being a wiki
... it should maybe a note

Avneesh: There was no decision, but it's a concern if the links were normative
... informative links are fine
... for now it is ok
... but in the long term it should be formalized

George: When something is added to schema there is a process?

laudrain: Yes, there's a mailing list

George: We met with Dan Brickley, to get anything into schema you need to go through him/the process

laudrain: You contact the mailing list and there is discussion and it's published if there's no objection

Charles: That's for conformsTo and all of that, we have control over the values

Madeleine: For schema, the web will pick values, but we make our own to be clear

George: Great

Avneesh: thanks everyone!

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Present: Avneesh George Julian_Calderazi gpellegrino wendyreid laudrain romain laurent_ marisa
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