10:40:12 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #clreq
10:40:12 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2019/12/06-clreq-irc
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10:41:09 <xfq_> Meeting: Clreq Editors' Call
11:01:37 <xfq_> present+ Bobby, xfq
11:17:54 <xfq_> present+ huijing
11:18:19 <xfq_> Topic: Review of CSS definition status
12:56:45 <xfq> xfq has joined #clreq
12:56:57 <xfq> xfq has joined #clreq
12:57:07 <xfq> rrsagent, make log public
12:57:11 <xfq> rrsagent, make minutes v2
12:57:11 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/12/06-clreq-minutes.html xfq
12:58:17 <xfq> xfq has joined #clreq
12:58:21 <xfq> chair: xfq
12:58:27 <xfq> rrsagent, make minutes v2
12:58:27 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/12/06-clreq-minutes.html xfq
13:38:24 <Zakim> Zakim has left #clreq
15:17:42 <xfq_> xfq_ has joined #clreq
15:24:48 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #clreq
15:24:50 <xfq_> q?
15:25:14 <xfq_> Bobby: I've been busy with a lot of things
15:25:15 <xfq_> ... haven't started reviewing clreq & CSS definition status yet
15:25:15 <xfq_> ... just saw the fangsong & non-Chinese mapping issue
15:25:15 <xfq_> ... reminds me of cursive & Kai
15:25:19 <xfq_> ... https://bobbytung.github.io/cursiveaskaifont/
15:25:19 <xfq_> ... I'll be less busy this month, and start to work on the CSS definition status
15:25:24 <xfq_> rrsagent, make minutes v2
15:25:24 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/12/06-clreq-minutes.html xfq_
15:25:30 <xfq_> xfq: jlreq is also working on this
15:25:31 <xfq_> ... although I haven't seen the results yet
15:26:06 <xfq> xfq has joined #clreq
15:26:16 <xfq> Topic: Vertical text in Chinese Gap Analysis
15:26:19 <xfq> rrsagent, make minutes v2
15:26:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/12/06-clreq-minutes.html xfq
15:26:50 <xfq> xfq: https://w3c.github.io/jlreq/gap-analysis/#vertical
15:26:50 <xfq> ... ^ this is Japanese Gap Analysis
15:26:50 <xfq> ... what about Chinese?
15:26:50 <xfq> ... do we have these requirements?
15:26:55 <xfq> ... if so, are they important enough to be mentioned in the gap analysis?
15:26:55 <xfq> ... let's go through these items
15:26:55 <xfq> ... 2.1.1 Vertical form controls
15:27:00 <xfq> ... like input field, text area, selection options etc.
15:27:02 <xfq> rrsagent, make minutes v2
15:27:02 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/12/06-clreq-minutes.html xfq
15:27:06 <xfq> Bobby: this is interesting
15:27:07 <xfq> ... this has a great impact on some web pages
15:27:08 <xfq> ... what do you think, huijing?
15:27:10 <xfq> ... vertical input field might be an issue in web design
15:27:12 <xfq> rrsagent, make minutes v2
15:27:12 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/12/06-clreq-minutes.html xfq
15:27:18 <xfq> huijing: there is no interop on this currently
15:27:21 <xfq> xfq: currently only Firefox supports vertical text in forms
15:27:25 <xfq> huijing: I guess only Japan and Taiwan need this feature
15:27:25 <xfq> ... not Mainland China
15:27:31 <xfq> Bobby: in vertical writing mode, if you have a table and the text in it is in horizontal, the table may overflow, especially in a paginated context
15:27:31 <xfq> ... some forms can be resized
15:27:31 <xfq> ... so it's less an issue comparing with table
15:27:35 <xfq> rrsagent, make minutes v2
15:27:35 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/12/06-clreq-minutes.html xfq
15:27:40 <xfq> huijing: from a web designer's point of view
15:27:40 <xfq> ... if the text and table is vertical
15:27:40 <xfq> ... there should be an option to make the form vertical too
15:27:43 <xfq> rrsagent, make minutes v2
15:27:43 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/12/06-clreq-minutes.html xfq
15:28:03 <xfq> Bobby: video and audio elements in vertical writing mode is a bigger problem, especially for audio elements
15:28:04 <xfq> ... the audio control should be vertical
15:28:04 <xfq> ... a horizontal audio control takes up a lot of space in a page in vertical writing mode
15:28:10 <xfq> rrsagent, make minutes v2
15:28:10 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/12/06-clreq-minutes.html xfq
15:28:14 <xfq> xfq: we can mention this in the gap analysis if it is an issue
15:28:17 <xfq> Bobby: yes
15:28:18 <xfq> ... we can also discuss this in i18n meetings
15:28:22 <xfq> rrsagent, make minutes v2
15:28:22 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/12/06-clreq-minutes.html xfq
15:28:26 <xfq> huijing: in Arabic, the progress bar is often ltr instead of rtl
15:28:26 <xfq> ... initially it is because the lack of good bidi support
15:28:26 <xfq> ... but now many people already got used to it
15:28:26 <xfq> ... this case might be similar to our case
15:28:37 <xfq> s/it is because/it was because
15:28:47 <xfq> Bobby: I don't think so
15:28:47 <xfq> ... the volume, seeking, pause, resume controls have minimum widths
15:28:47 <xfq> ... doesn't look good in vertical writing mode if they're horizontal
15:28:47 <xfq> ... so the layout of the controls should be different in vertical writing mode
15:28:52 <xfq> xfq: we can use 'transform: rotate(90deg)' ;)
15:28:57 <xfq> huijing: this is a new issue in the digital age
15:28:57 <xfq> ... we can give recommendations, although there is no precedent about this kind of issues
15:29:02 <xfq> Bobby: we can ask people the question first
15:29:02 <xfq> ... about vertical forms, examination paper in vertical writing mode might have something similar
15:29:07 <xfq> xfq: let's go to the next item
15:29:07 <xfq> ... 2.1.2 Upright text orientation
15:29:07 <xfq> ... only Firefox has good support of it
15:29:07 <xfq> ... I think we have similar requirements in Chinese
15:29:12 <xfq> ... 2.1.3 Tate-chu-yoko
15:29:13 <xfq> ... I also think we have similar requirements in Chinese
15:29:17 <xfq> rrsagent, make minutes v2
15:29:17 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/12/06-clreq-minutes.html xfq
15:29:22 <xfq> Bobby: agreed
15:29:22 <xfq> ... many Japanese people use text-combine-upright rather than text-orientation to implement upright-oriented text
15:29:22 <xfq> ... because of the support for text-orientation is not good enough
15:29:25 <xfq> rrsagent, make minutes v2
15:29:25 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/12/06-clreq-minutes.html xfq
15:29:29 <xfq> xfq: unfortunately, yes
15:29:32 <xfq> Bobby: Classical Chinese didn't have Tate-chu-yoko
15:29:33 <xfq> ... some Taiwan publishers use Tate-chu-yoko because it is used in Japan
15:29:36 <xfq> xfq: yeah, so we have requirements for it now
15:29:41 <xfq> rrsagent, make minutes v2
15:29:41 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/12/06-clreq-minutes.html xfq
15:29:46 <xfq> Bobby: 2.1.4 Lists
15:29:47 <xfq> ... the illustration is correct for Chinese, but wrong for Japanese
15:29:47 <xfq> ... in Japanese, I think it should be "1．" (European numeral followed by a full-width full stop)
15:29:51 <xfq> xfq: or use "一"
15:29:58 <xfq> Bobby: or "一、" / "一　"
15:29:58 <xfq> ... I think 2.1.4 Lists is a very important feature
15:29:58 <xfq> ... unfortunately browsers don't support it
15:30:04 <xfq> rrsagent, make minutes v2
15:30:04 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/12/06-clreq-minutes.html xfq
15:30:14 <xfq> xfq: CSS Writing Modes L3 will be a REC next week
15:30:14 <xfq> ... 2.1.5 Table cells and 2.1.6 Logical properties
15:30:14 <xfq> ... I think we have similar requirements
15:30:19 <xfq> rrsagent, make minutes v2
15:30:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/12/06-clreq-minutes.html xfq
15:30:25 <xfq> Bobby: logical properties is a very important feature
15:30:25 <xfq> ... Amazon is quitting China market
15:30:25 <xfq> ... their work on Traditional Chinese is moving to the HQ
15:30:30 <xfq> ... targeting international users, thus using horizontal instead of vertical writing mode
15:30:30 <xfq> ... if you use right, left, top, and bottom, it is difficult to switch from a writing mode to another
15:30:30 <xfq> ... for line head indent etc.
15:30:37 <xfq> xfq: https://w3c.github.io/clreq/gap-analysis/#vertical
15:30:37 <xfq> ... for Chinese, vertical text is currently marked as need work for advanced level support
15:30:37 <xfq> ... should we change it to need work for basic features, like Japanese?
15:30:43 <xfq> rrsagent, make minutes v2
15:30:43 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/12/06-clreq-minutes.html xfq
15:30:48 <xfq> Bobby: I agree
15:30:48 <xfq> ... I think Lists is the most important feature
15:30:48 <xfq> ... and Logical properties is the second most important one
15:30:52 <xfq> Topic: Go through the issue and pull request list
15:30:55 <xfq> rrsagent, make minutes v2
15:30:55 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/12/06-clreq-minutes.html xfq
15:30:59 <xfq> https://github.com/w3c/clreq/pull/231
15:31:02 <xfq> xfq: can we merge this?
15:31:06 <xfq> [All: agreed]
15:31:09 <xfq> https://github.com/w3c/clreq/issues/229
15:31:13 <xfq> xfq: we discussed this once
15:31:15 <xfq> ... it's about the classification for 'cjk-earthly-branch' and 'cjk-heavenly-stem
15:31:18 <xfq> huijing: currently they're alphabetic
15:31:19 <xfq> ... 甲甲, 甲乙
15:31:19 <xfq> ... doesn't sound correct to me
15:31:22 <xfq> Bobby: they should be fixed
15:31:26 <xfq> huijing: should it be cyclic?
15:31:31 <xfq> Bobby: I think it is fixed
15:31:36 <xfq> xfq: I also think fixed makes sense
15:31:37 <xfq> ... let's provide this feedback to the CSS working group first
15:31:37 <xfq> ... if there are other usages, we can discuss it later
15:31:41 <xfq> ... at least our consensus is that alphatic is incorrect
15:31:41 <xfq> ... if we use Earthly Branches to represent Chinese zodiac, it can be cyclic
15:31:41 <xfq> ... but we can design a new counter style for that, if needed
15:31:41 <xfq> ... I'll comment on relevant issues
15:31:47 <xfq> https://github.com/w3c/clreq/issues/228
15:31:51 <xfq> [xfq introduces the issue]
15:31:56 <xfq> xfq: cjk-tally-mark looks good to me
15:31:57 <xfq> ... it is additive
15:31:57 <xfq> ... I think cjk-stem-branch should be cyclic
15:31:57 <xfq> ... that's what it is designed for
15:32:01 <xfq> rrsagent, make minutes v2
15:32:01 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/12/06-clreq-minutes.html xfq
15:32:06 <xfq> Bobby: I agree
15:32:06 <xfq> ... https://w3c.github.io/predefined-counter-styles/ looks like something similar to what Florian described in https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/4425
15:32:10 <xfq> xfq: I'll publish a new WD of clreq
15:32:14 <xfq> Bobby: https://github.com/w3c/clreq/issues/206
15:32:20 <xfq> huijing: I can translate the text into English
15:32:23 <xfq> Bobby: Thank you!
15:32:28 <xfq> xfq: jlreq will also publish a new version
15:32:28 <xfq> ... integrate the errata
15:32:32 <xfq> Topic: Next telecon time
15:32:35 <xfq> Tentative: January 8 (Wednesday), 19:00-20:00 (UTC+8)
15:32:39 <xfq> xfq: I'll ask other editors
15:32:42 <xfq> rrsagent, make minutes v2
15:32:42 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/12/06-clreq-minutes.html xfq
15:35:32 <xfq> rrsagent, bye
15:35:32 <RRSAgent> I see no action items