Education and Outreach Working Group Teleconference -- 08 Nov 2019

<Sharron> Scribe: Sharron

<shawn> trackbot, start meeting

<trackbot> Meeting: Education and Outreach Working Group Teleconference

<trackbot> Date: 08 November 2019

<shawn> Chair: Brent

Curricula

<dmontalvo> https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/WAI_Curricula

Daniel: We have been working and getting all the aspects in sync. We want to review the requirements for the supporting documents. We may need addiitonal guidance from other audiences. Thinking about recruitment courses and what they should know as they build courses from this curricula. Understanding from HR departments for example if this is appropriate for their purposes.
... Second thing is to post the Approval to Publish survey. It will be an approval for only this first version with the understanding that we may continue to tweak as we get community and WG comments in the coming weeks.
... Related to this, we are building a MOOC based on the curricula and in collaboration with several community memebers.

MOOC

<shadi> https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/WAI_Curricula/W3Cx_Introduction_to_Web_Accessibility_MOOC

Shadi: We discussed this concept a while back. To build a MOOC on W3CX training program. We want to announce it in December so the course can open in January. It will be good to have a final curriculum published by the time we have the Mooc launched.
... We have reached out to people who teach these topics to provide input on the curricula as we work to finalize it. Keep the outreach a bit under the radar. Making sure we are meeting real needs with the final curricula.
... We are partnering with UNESCO which is great since they have such an extensive reach. We expect the echo of the MOOC to go very far. When we announce, the idea is to include several trainers from different W3C member goups and coordinate with UNESCO.

Daniel: This is just the first version, we are aware that we will continue to iterate. So the Approval to publish should be understood as publication of this first step and we will continue to work on updates as comments are submitted from this group and the wider community.

Brent: When we talk about the curricula, "we" is EOWG but who is the "we" of the MOOC development?

Shadi: Yes the curricula is a chartered development project of EOWG but the MOOC is a W3C staff generated project coordinated with UNESCO. It is based on the curricula developed here in EO. We will learn from the development of the MOOC in ways that may impact the iterations of the curricula.

Evaluation video

Brent: Shadi and team have been working, the survey closed, thanks for the comments and appreciate Shadi's acceptance of late comments. Thanks to all who commented, let's discuss what clarification is needed.

Shadi: We had the first discussion a few weeks ago and there were some optional questions that several people did complete - thank you. Input on voice and music were helpful as we choose the voice artist - one male, one female. You can see the survey results compiled and linked from the agenda in a document. This all went to the production company but there are a few open issues.
... the team will do a v2 of the first video and a v1 of all the other 4. We will open a survey to capture your comments on all of them.
... for the record, as of now we have selected the female voice Arabella and the male Gahame. Those will come in only at the very end. We will not hove those voices in the drafts you review. Claudia will continue to read in the meantime so no need to comment on that.
... the idea is to have the main narration introduced by one gender narrator and then narrated by the other. Those will switch off for each video. Any questions?

<shadi> https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/Video-Based_Resources/Evaluation_Introduction#Video_1:_Evaluation_Overview_.28.7E2_minutes.29

Shadi: One issue that was identified was that since we removed the word 'resource' some sequences have become unclear. The name of the resource can be confused as part of the sentence.
... particularly in sequence about "involving users" ther is a potential to confuse the resource title with part of the sentence.
... suggestion is that the voice artisit will be able to qualify that so no need to add the word 'resource' back everywhere. However, looking back over the script, there remains one place where I think it may be debatable. "Easy Checks" intro for example.

<Vicki> +1 seq.5 no need to add resource

<Zakim> Sylvie, you wanted to suggest to have another voice pronouncing the resource names

Sharron: +1 no need to add

Sylvie: Could another voice speak the title and also have a visual clue of that?

Shadi: Yes, the titles do get visually highlighted so the question is really about the audio. The suggestion is another voice. I am afraid of the complexity but it could be done. What do others think?

<yatil> -0.5 to other speaker, that would be distracting

<JennC> I agree that having another speaker voice would be distracting

Kevin: I think there is risk that it would be quite distracting even though I can understand the value.

<Vicki> +1 more distracting, maybe confusing

<Laura> +1 to more distracting having 2 voices

Shawn: I appreciate the idea and glad to have it considered. Screen reader users are used to various voices. For most people however , since it is interwoven into the sentence, it could be distracting.

Daniel: We will also have a problem where people may not understand the significance of another voice saying the title.
... I support the idea of avoiding the word resource over and over but happy to have it added in when necessary and used sparingly.

<shawn> + 1 to shadi's voice-over artist pause after "A First Review of Web Accessibility" being sufficient. & Daniel's comment that "resources" in the sentence helps

<JennC> +1 for Shadi's pause and the sentence structure as is.

Lewis: If we wanted to use two voices, most VO artisits can use different qulaity voices to intone a different voice that would have the same indication without changing people.

Sylvie: Another idea would be to have a short pause before and after pronouncing the title.

Shadi: Yes and let the voice actor understand the need to emphasize differently.

Eric: I would expect the VO actors will do that easily. Could have a short ding or tone when a resource name is pronounced.

<shawn> hummm

<kevin> -1 to ding!

<Vicki> -1 to ding

<Laura> -1

<shawn> oresent+ KrisAnne

<JennC> -1

<shawn> interesting idea!

KrisAnne: My computer makes so many noises, they may think a computer is alerting them to something.

<markpalmer> +1 to that. Too many noises already.

KrisAnne: I am now wondering about the other resources, since we have only spoken about EasyChecks.

Shadi: For this sequnce then, in summary, it will be sufficient to have the indication doen by the VO artist.

<Zakim> kevin, you wanted to ask about 'provides' and other verbs

<dmontalvo> +1 These are the problematic ones, yeah

<yatil> WAI wrote

<yatil> WAI published

Kevin: Having read through this, there is a problem where it gets vague later on. Using 'provides' as a verb is part of the problem. It does not really say what the expected action would be.

<shawn> In "WAI provides XYZ", e.g., XYZ could be considered a service or something

Shadi: Good point, let's go one by one to see what/how we might change For example sequence #7 has been chaged to match "tools list"

<shawn> fine

<Brent> Tools list section seems fine to me.

<Laura> +1

<Sylvie> Sounds clear to me

<kevin> +1

<Lewis> +1

<markpalmer> Clear enough

<markpalmer> +1

Sharron: "WAI has created a tools list" perhaps?

<dmontalvo> I like it, there is still not in the wiki though

<JennC> After #7 follows #8 which matches the earlier example: [Resource title] explains... so it seems fine to me.

<yatil> +0

<JennC> +1

<Vicki> I like the current version but the modification is okay

<yatil> [ lots of provides in the video… ]

<Laura> "maintains" communicates that the list is updated regularly

<yatil> +1 to maintains

<Vicki> +1 maintains (for variety)

<shawn> "maintains" is a little more complex than "provides"

<Vicki> +1 shadi voice over artist

<dmontalvo> +1

Shadi: On to sequnce #7 and #8 [reads]

<Vicki> Seq.8 fine as is

<kevin> Sounds fine to me

<Laura> clear

<yatil> ok

<krisannekinney> clear to me

<Sylvie> with pauses before the resource title, yes

<Brent> Not too clear to me

<Lewis> I agree with Brent

<dmontalvo> =1

<shawn> not really clear on that one - probably because "Selecting" doesn't seem like a resource title

<dmontalvo> 1+

<Brent> "and" is better

<Vicki_> Adding "and" works

<Sylvie> -1

Daniel: Seems clearer with the 'and' otherwise starting with selecting seems like you will be instructed about an action.

Sylvie: I have a concern since seq #7 is long. What is the 'and' referring to?

Shawn: I agree with Sylvie. Simpler to say 'the resource....'
... what if it was "For an explanation of what tools can and cannot do, see 'Selecting Eval Tools'
... Might flow better "An explanation of what tools can and cannot do is in 'Selecting...'"

<Zakim> yatil, you wanted to say duck, a wrench

Eric: In seqeunce #7 it is defintive enough to end the thought. Adding in the 'selecting...' is important however so may not need to be added as an afterthought.
... Maybe integrate them more closely.

Shadi: Coming back to the 'and' - would that not add a natural connection?

<yatil> +1 to and

<Vicki_> +1 to and

Sharron: +1 I think that meeets the requirement

<Lewis> +1 to and

<Laura> +1 to and

<shawn> "And" can start new sentence :-)

<kevin> +1 to easy tweak and 'and'

<shawn> [ Shawn feels not a signifricant issue - and aware of the time... fine with editor's discretion. ]

<Vicki_> Shawn wins the voice over artist role

Shawn: Reading, adding pause, adding 'that'

<shawn> And [pause] "Selecting Web Accessibility Evaluation Tools" [that] explains what tools can and cannot do.

<yatil> would prefer and but ok with group

<shawn> OK for without the "and" and with the voice-over artist distinguishing the resource name (probably with more pause after it than amature-Shadi-v-o-artist did ;-)

Shadi: Sequence #8 - is it unclear where the resource title is?

<yatil> good

Shadi: Continues to read the titles in the context

<Vicki_> got to leave.

Brent: Sounds almost like WAI provides the people

Shadi: Good point

<shawn> great minds think alike:-) [08:15] <shawn> In "WAI provides XYZ", e.g., XYZ could be considered a service or something

<kevin> +1 to Brent

Sylvie: Maybe an intro sentence "WAI provides a numbeer of resources..."

<shawn> +1 to adding "the resources" in 11

Shadi: Anyone oppose adding 'resource' back in this instance?

<Laura> +1 to adding resources

Kevin: not sure I oppose entirely but find it clunky
... can you flip it around "Involving Users..." front loaded and follow up with what they do?

Eric: I have a quibble, sorry not to add sooner. Not sure this is a good decription of what the resource actually does.

<Zakim> yatil, you wanted to say another quibble

<shawn> guidacen in

<krisannekinney> i like the word guidance

Shadi: Would the word 'guidance' help?

<kevin> I think I like 'guidance' more

Eric: Fine for me

<Sylvie> +1

<shawn> (second "in" not needed)

<kevin> +1

<krisannekinney> +1

<Lewis> +1

<Laura> take out "the"

<shawn> +1 guidance in

<yatil> +0

Shadi: Reads revision including 'guidance'

<shawn> "With these resources" -> "With all these resource"

Shadi: does that change the need to change the word "resources" in sequence 13?

<shawn> s/"With all these resources"

<Brent> +1 to adding "all", should be all you need.

<yatil> +0

Kevin: Yes the sneaky add in of 'all' did a good job of clarifying and 'resources' fits since it is a collection

Shadi: I think we have managed to make clarification with only minimal changes.

<yatil> +1 for those changes, it’s probably the best we can do at this point

Shadi: changed one 'provide' to 'maintain', added 'guidance,' and added 'all' That is my conclusion. Hope it works well for everyone.

Improve style for text boxes

<shawn> https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/Video-Based_Resources/Evaluation_Introduction#Textboxes

<yatil> Updated Logo – OK

<Lewis> 9, but with Laura's suggestion of just "W3C" as the logo

Eric: Don't really like any of the options. Wasted space, 1,2,3 are too busy with small text. 4 is generic, 5, 6 is visual noise for those not seen the site, etc...
... propose to put an all blue background, no banner, no need for different colors. Logo in top left like as on the web site.

Shadi: But the resource name does not always appear in the absence of other visual content

Eric: In that case, it was fine as it was last week

Shadi: There was concern that it looked too much liek a button from the web site

Eric: OK in that case, I can accept #4 or #7

<Zakim> kevin, you wanted to say they remind me of PowerPoint sections slides

Kevin: I get the fact that they will be in context but they all remind me of a PowerPoint deck with the bar. There is not enough in the visual language that they are a resource, that there is a resource behind it, and to tie them back into elements within the WAI style.
... they waver around that and are a bit flat as a result. Not sure that any are good enough but #4 may be the closest. The earlier discussion of how it is highlighted that this is a reference to a real thing - a WAI resource. That was a reason for the creation of iconography that suggested a link to a thing. These are not just words.

Shadi: OK, is #4 an improvement over what we have already? The box with rounded corners?

Kevin: Yes, somewhat

Shadi: Would it help if the icon from #2 was incorporated into #4?

Kevin: Possibly, but not necessarily as a 'world' icon. At the time, it simply looks like a word, no sense that it visually supports the existance of this as a thing in the world.

<Zakim> shawn, you wanted to say fine with #4

Shadi: Summary - #4 is the best so far but still needs more to indicate the substance of the resource.

Eric: Maybe have a pointer hand, mouse hover indicator?

Shadi: What about the icon in #2?

Eric: Does not seem that useful, a mouse hover icon would be better.

<markpalmer> 4 is way too simplistic in my view. Needs more.

Laura: The icons in 2 and 3 seem to be non-W3C aligned. To have a mouse pointer to indicate clickable on #4 seems OK but it does not resonate with me entirely.

Shawn: Earlier Laura had the idea to include only the W3C logo rather than both that and the WAI to reduce clutter

<Laura> +1 to shawn :)

<kevin> +0.5 to that

<Zakim> shawn, you wanted to say W3C logo only (Laura)

<Lewis> +1

<yatil> +0.01

Shadi: Most suppert seems to be gathering here

Kevin: Flipping around the WAI site, there is actually a subtle gradient behind it that connects to the brand and brings it to life a bit more.

Shadi: Kevin, Eric, and Shawn and whomever else wants to... we seem to be converging on #4 with requested refinements.Can we make a subgroup for those refinements?

<Lewis> +1 to let people who want to do visual design specifics handle it.

<Laura> +1

<markpalmer> +1

<Brent> +1

Shadi: anyone opposed?

<yatil> -1 to be in the sub-group

<Lewis> as long as I'm not part of it :)

Shadi: subgroup is Shawn, Eric, Kevin, and Laura

<markpalmer> +1 to be in sub group

<markpalmer> I can stay

<Laura> I can stay

<shawn> scribe: Shawn

Work for this Week

https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/EOWG_Meetings#Work_for_this_Week

Clarifying the video only has illustrative visuals

https://www.w3.org/WAI/media/av/planning/#none

<scribe> scribe: Daniel

<dmontalvo> Shadi: Should we refer to the fact that there is no audio description via a voice over comment in the video or we can put that on the text of the website?

<dmontalvo> Laure: I think we should not add it in the video.

"Users who need captions will look there, so you can provide a captions file with only the appropriate indication, such as “[background music]”. Or you can provide the information in text with the video, such as:"

<dmontalvo> Shawn: People who need captions would look for that information in the captions. You can provide that in text within the video.

<dmontalvo> Shadi: For captions it is completely different, I agree. The question is, do you put that there is no audio description in the non-audio description channel?

<dmontalvo> Shawn: We can have a text file with audio description

<Sylvie> Not sur to understand what you said, Shawn

https://www.w3.org/WAI/media/av/description/#text--creating-description-in-a-text-file

<dmontalvo> Kevin: If there is just a way to say there is no audio description I would put this in the text of the website

daniel: able player does, you tube does not yet. think in the webpage, not in the main video audio

<Sylvie> +1 to Daniel

daniel: personally I start listing to video, and only look for audio description if I think it's needed. Don't think needed on these.

<dmontalvo> Shadi: Let's assume we have the video without this narration but we have the text file with this and a description on the website. We have the player that supports that but we have the video also in Youtube with a link back to our page

+1 !

<dmontalvo> ... Does anybody feel that is not sufficient?

<kevin> +1

<markpalmer> +1

<Lewis> +1

<Laura> +1

Daniel: good - we provide it, so eevn if not elsewhere, they can get to it

Showing "WCAG-EM" as a separate sticker/text

<Zakim> shawn, you wanted to note match visual and narrator and https://www.w3.org/WAI/test-evaluate/conformance/

<Lewis> +1 to have acronym first in narration

<Laura> +1 also

<Lewis> no, leave it like the rest

<Zakim> shawn, you wanted to suggest all same text: acronym [pause] full title -- that is, visual matches narration

<dmontalvo> Shawn: Propose just showing the acronym for a couple of seconds and then expand it

<dmontalvo> Lewis: I like that since it helps associate the acronym to the actual meaning

Pronouncing "WCAG" and "WAI" in different parts

<Lewis> -1

<dmontalvo> +1 to W A I

<markpalmer> +1 to W A I

<kevin> +1

+1 to waa-cag E-M

<markpalmer> +1 also to WaaCag EM

<Laura> +1 W A I "Way" may get misunderstood

<dmontalvo> Sylvie: Are we stuck on time for this video?

<dmontalvo> Shadi: We think of W A I to make people understand that it is an acronym, but we could use it only the first time and then use just WAI

<Zakim> dmontalvo, you wanted to ask for an alternative to WCAG == WAI-CAG

daniel: need to make clear W-A-I is acronym
... some people pronouce it way-cag

[ Shawn thinks way-cag eve move confusing ]

<dmontalvo> Lewis: When I hear people saying W A I or way-cag it makes me wonder how much time they have been around.

scribe: shows them as a newcomer

<Zakim> shawn, you wanted to say on the fense on this one - we always say "way" but for newbies "W-A-I" clearer -- except that's not what they'll hear in the field and to say "W-A-I"/"way"

<dmontalvo> Shawn: I think we should say W A I -- WAI for the first time and then simply WAI

<Sylvie> +1 to W A I or WAI

spoken ""W-A-I"[pause]"way"" ...or... ""W-A-I" or "way""

Daniel: leaning towards "wai" - it's right after the wording spelling out

<dmontalvo> Shadi: We are hearing support for WAI (all together) and WCAG as it is usually pronounced by staff

<shawn-focusing> trackbot, end meeting

- DRAFT -

Education and Outreach Working Group Teleconference

08 Nov 2019

Attendees

Contents

Curricula

MOOC

Evaluation video

Improve style for text boxes

Work for this Week

Clarifying the video only has illustrative visuals

Showing "WCAG-EM" as a separate sticker/text

Pronouncing "WCAG" and "WAI" in different parts

Summary of Action Items

Summary of Resolutions

Scribe.perl diagnostic output