15:54:35 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #pbg
15:54:35 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2019/10/29-pbg-irc
15:54:36 <ivan> rrsagent, set log public
15:54:36 <ivan> Meeting: Publishing Business Group Telco
15:54:36 <ivan> Chair: liisa
15:54:36 <ivan> Date: 2019-10-29
15:54:36 <ivan> Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-publishingbg/2019Oct/0030.html
15:54:36 <ivan> ivan has changed the topic to: Meeting Agenda 2019-10-29: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-publishingbg/2019Oct/0030.html
15:54:37 <ivan> Regrets+ Avneesh, Luc, George
15:57:08 <Daihei> Daihei has joined #pbg
15:59:26 <ivan> present+
15:59:30 <Karen> Karen has joined #pbg
15:59:39 <ivan> present+ Daihei
15:59:48 <dauwhe> present+
15:59:59 <ivan> present+ dauwhe
16:00:09 <ivan> present+ ralph
16:02:11 <dauwhe> Zakim, why are we here?
16:02:11 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, dauwhe.
16:03:07 <ivan> present+ liisa
16:03:09 <Karen> present+ karen
16:03:13 <ivan> present+ billk
16:03:16 <Bill_Kasdorf> Bill_Kasdorf has joined #pbg
16:03:20 <JulieBlair> JulieBlair has joined #pbg
16:03:20 <Bill_Kasdorf> present+
16:03:27 <jeff> jeff has joined #pbg
16:03:33 <jeff> present+
16:03:46 <JulieBlair> present+
16:03:49 <Jonathan_Greenberg> Jonathan_Greenberg has joined #pbg
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16:05:52 <liisamk> present+
16:06:10 <dauwhe> scribenick: dauwhe
16:06:19 <Ralph> Ralph has joined #pbg
16:06:22 <Ralph> present+
16:06:37 <dauwhe> liisamk: let's get started
16:06:40 <david_stroup> david_stroup has joined #pbg
16:06:46 <dauwhe> ... I wanted to talk about epubcheck fundraising
16:06:50 <ivan> present+ david_stroup
16:06:55 <dauwhe> ... the page has been updated to talk about the phase 2 work
16:07:13 <liisamk> https://www.w3.org/publishing/epubcheck_fundraising
16:07:17 <dauwhe> ... we do not have enough to get us to the milestones in january and february
16:07:26 <dauwhe> ... so we need to make a push to get contributions
16:07:39 <dauwhe> ... and to explain the importance of the next phase
16:07:50 <dauwhe> ... Daihai, you've talked to people in japan?
16:08:09 <dauwhe> Daihei: yes, I'm waiting to hear from APL?
16:08:23 <dauwhe> ... before the end of the year
16:08:33 <dauwhe> ... still waiting for authorization
16:08:43 <dauwhe> liisamk: I've heard there have been conversations with Apple
16:09:36 <dauwhe> Daihei: I'm asking people to contribute and to use EPUBCheck 4.2
16:10:16 <dauwhe> liisamk: we wanted to have a broader discussion of epub adoption
16:10:19 <ivan> Topic: epub adoption
16:10:31 <dauwhe> ... what are we hearing about epub 3.2 and epubcheck 4.2?
16:10:33 <dauwhe> q+
16:10:42 <Ralph> scribe: Ralph
16:10:50 <liisamk> ack dauwhe
16:11:03 <Ralph> Dave: EPUB 3.2 adoption happens automatically when you move to EPUBcheck 4.2
16:11:14 <Ralph> ... that happens soon at Hachette
16:11:35 <dauwhe> liisamk: PRH has worked through most of our 4.2 validation
16:11:37 <ivan> scribe+ david_stroup
16:11:47 <dauwhe> ... so we've been making 3.2 since then
16:11:59 <ivan> scribe+ dauwhe
16:12:05 <dauwhe> ... and we're bringing up backlist titles to 3.2
16:12:25 <dauwhe> ... anyone having trouble?
16:12:26 <Daihei> q+
16:12:39 <liisamk> ack Daihei
16:13:06 <dauwhe> Daihei: speaking of trouble, there were issues in Japan, but epubcheck was amended
16:13:28 <dauwhe> ... everyone is using 3.0.1
16:13:43 <Dan_Sanicola> Dan_Sanicola has joined #pbg
16:13:44 <dauwhe> ... I want to make sure the adoption is happening
16:13:58 <Dan_Sanicola> present+
16:14:04 <dauwhe> ... so during the next Asia call I'll call for adoption in Asia
16:14:21 <dauwhe> liisamk: any other questions about this?
16:14:26 <david_stroup> +q
16:14:29 <david_stroup> q+
16:14:41 <dauwhe> david_stroup: Pearson is adopting this as well
16:14:51 <dauwhe> ... we'll be using latest epubcheck by end of the year
16:14:53 <liisamk> ack david_stroup
16:14:55 <jeff> ack dav
16:14:57 <jeff> ack ra
16:15:07 <dauwhe> Ralph: Have there been any issues, small or large, with reading systems?
16:15:15 <dauwhe> ... in 3.2?
16:15:17 <Ralph> s/or large/or not small/
16:15:44 <dauwhe> liisamk: from the publishers perspective not all reading systems are using 4.2 on ingestion
16:16:00 <dauwhe> ... the kinds of things were causing errors for us, there was a little bit of forgiveness
16:16:02 <ivan> present+ Jonathan_Greenberg
16:16:07 <dauwhe> ... that's starting to shift
16:16:26 <dauwhe> ... and we had to figure out issues with older files
16:16:31 <jeff> q+
16:16:38 <liisamk> ack jeff
16:16:46 <dauwhe> jeff: I don't have comments on 3.2 adoption
16:16:58 <dauwhe> ... I see that in the agenda, there's a question about the epub roadmap
16:17:08 <dauwhe> ... if that's part of the current discussion I have a question for Dave
16:17:14 <dauwhe> ... I went to a CG call
16:17:34 <dauwhe> ... I don't recall a lot of tangible, we need to add these features to 3.2
16:17:51 <dauwhe> ... I went to the last BG call a couple of weeks ago, and there was a direct Q about road map
16:17:59 <dauwhe> ... and there was nothing added
16:18:13 <dauwhe> ... so the Q is are there any road map items?
16:18:37 <liisamk> q+
16:18:51 <Ralph> dauwhe: in general we don't have urgent and glaring missing features in EPUB to my knowledge
16:19:05 <Ralph> ... given the kinds of people currently doing EPUB and who are part of the conversation
16:19:30 <Ralph> ... there are directions we want to go, largely to prepare for better alignment in the future with Web specs and how the Web works
16:19:43 <Ralph> ... but I don't see anything that must happen in the next 6 months
16:19:55 <Ralph> ... EPUB is quite a mature spec; EPUB 3 is 8 or 9 years old at this point
16:20:01 <jeff> ack lii
16:20:11 <dauwhe> liisamk: Jeff, I think it's going to take some time for people to stop and think about this
16:20:26 <dauwhe> ... most of the things missing from epub have been missing forever, and people gave up on trying to get there
16:20:51 <dauwhe> ... there were workarounds, or you just didn't put some content in ebooks
16:21:01 <dauwhe> ... and we wondered if there was an app space for this content
16:21:17 <dauwhe> ... and now it's a question of what we haven't done, and what are the business opportunities
16:21:28 <dauwhe> ... I have books that need local storage for journaling, etc.
16:21:34 <mateus> present+
16:21:47 <dauwhe> ... but it doesn't necessarily have to happen in the next six months because we haven't had it for five years
16:21:56 <dauwhe> q+
16:22:29 <dauwhe> liisamk: how do we encourage more people to get involved in the CG? Do people want to take something back to their own organizations?
16:22:30 <Rachel> present+
16:22:35 <liisamk> ack dauwhe
16:23:05 <Rachel> dauwhe: some of the commonly requested features are CSS which we can't directly influence
16:23:11 <jeff> q+ on encouraging people to get involved in the CG
16:23:30 <Rachel> ...others are js but reading systems have largely chosen not to implement those
16:23:33 <liisamk> ack jeff
16:23:33 <Zakim> jeff, you wanted to comment on encouraging people to get involved in the CG
16:23:46 <dauwhe> jeff: I want to address your q on encouraging CG participation
16:24:04 <dauwhe> ... we took it to the japanese firms, we're talking today with pearson, prh, and hachette
16:24:22 <Rachel> scribe+
16:24:29 <dauwhe> ... and if no one is saying they had these requirements, if no one's market is telling them they need something, it might be a mistake to dredge it out of them
16:24:40 <dauwhe> ... it's reminiscent of web publications, something the market isn't asking for
16:24:57 <dauwhe> ... if we had a company chomping at the bit for local storage, we could see if there's a need from others
16:25:15 <dauwhe> ... if no one has business needs, I'd rather just say 3.2 is gonna be EPUB for the next three years.
16:25:30 <dauwhe> ... the road map should match what people need. And I"m hearing that people don't need very much.
16:25:31 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
16:25:35 <Daihei> q＋
16:25:43 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: it's not just books
16:25:47 <liisamk> ack Bill_Kasdorf
16:25:55 <dauwhe> ... I've been talking to Josh Pyle at Atypon
16:26:02 <jeff> q+ daihei
16:26:11 <dauwhe> ... they're building an epub reader for journal articles
16:26:30 <dauwhe> ... and at the end of the year there will be millions of journal articles in epub
16:26:59 <dauwhe> ... Atypon seems happy with epub of journal articles, as is Sage
16:27:16 <dauwhe> ... Atypon's intention is that they would be consumed in their own reader based on Readium
16:27:22 <ivan> q+
16:27:47 <dauwhe> ... they can only make epubs that make use of waht the publisher included in the XML, such as MathML or tables
16:28:17 <dauwhe> ... I was wondering why Josh wasn't pushing more for WP, but it seems EPUB works for him.
16:28:39 <dauwhe> ... oh, and Atypon is not charging the publisher for converting XML to EPUB
16:28:55 <liisamk> ack daihei
16:29:00 <dauwhe> Daihei: in response to Jeff's question
16:29:04 <ivan> q-
16:29:08 <dauwhe> ... and the TPAC PBG discussion
16:29:24 <liisamk> q+
16:29:26 <dauwhe> ... we talked aobut next stage of digital publishing
16:29:37 <dauwhe> ... or whether it's epub 3.2 or 3.5 or 4
16:29:58 <Karen> Karen has joined #pbg
16:30:36 <dauwhe> ... I'm going to have meeting with the people I met at TPAC
16:30:48 <dauwhe> ... including immersive web people
16:31:07 <dauwhe> ... and I can bring this information to PBG, and invite the people
16:31:42 <dauwhe> ... I've also talked to traditional publishers
16:31:55 <dauwhe> ... they are interested in extending css, and in digital magazines
16:32:03 <dauwhe> ... what would they like to see?
16:32:19 <dauwhe> ... most of the other publishers are members of APL...
16:32:46 <dauwhe> ... even if it is not an immediate need, what might make digital publishing more attractive to the audiences?
16:33:02 <dauwhe> ... with new devices, 5G, etc
16:33:43 <dauwhe> ... and we could talk more about the EPUB road map with these people
16:33:55 <liisamk> ack liisamk
16:34:24 <dauwhe> liisamk: some of the business stuff is relative to the fact that when these questions came up, we always had reasons to put thing to the side
16:34:35 <dauwhe> ... we needed readium, or epubcheck, or reading systems
16:34:53 <dauwhe> ... people need time to think about this. I gave up on these books three years ago.
16:35:01 <jeff> q+ to embrace Liisa's suggestion and propose a plan
16:35:14 <dauwhe> ... I haven't looked at what books we don't do in a long time
16:35:26 <dauwhe> ... i think the biggest hole is the illustrated coffee table books
16:35:44 <dauwhe> liisamk: anyone else?
16:35:45 <dauwhe> q?
16:35:52 <liisamk> ack jeff
16:35:52 <Zakim> jeff, you wanted to embrace Liisa's suggestion and propose a plan
16:35:58 <dauwhe> jeff: it's a great perspective
16:36:11 <dauwhe> ... for years we've been so busy with today we haven't thought about tomorrow
16:36:29 <dauwhe> ... and maybe we have some breathing space now that we have 3.2
16:36:52 <dauwhe> ... so maybe it would be useful for pbg chairs to create a memo to the main users of EPUB 3
16:37:24 <dauwhe> ... describing where we are now, and we're trying to decide whether there is interest and value in doing the next turn of the crank on EPUB
16:37:43 <dauwhe> ... and they could study and return with an opinion
16:37:53 <dauwhe> ... there are probably hundreds of publishers out there
16:38:03 <dauwhe> ... and we could learn what they think
16:38:08 <dauwhe> liisamk: that's a great suggestion
16:38:35 <dauwhe> liisamk: we talked about a11y a few weeks ago
16:38:48 <dauwhe> ... Luc and Daihei talked to people at Frankfurt
16:38:59 <dauwhe> ... and it seems there are some issues around a11y around the world
16:39:09 <dauwhe> ... how can we help people with this?
16:39:23 <jeff> q+ to ask for clarification about what the issues are
16:39:35 <liisamk> ack jeff
16:39:35 <Zakim> jeff, you wanted to ask for clarification about what the issues are
16:39:40 <dauwhe> jeff: I would like to learn more about what the problems are
16:39:44 <dauwhe> ... around the world
16:39:50 <dauwhe> ... you've mentioned new EU laws
16:40:04 <dauwhe> ... I don't know the scope of the issues
16:40:14 <dauwhe> liisamk: I think it's two-fold
16:40:22 <Karen> q+
16:40:37 <dauwhe> ... Luc was telling us that the new laws in europe mandate that all content and everything has to be a11y by 2025
16:40:48 <dauwhe> ... so your website and epubs will need to be accessible
16:40:57 <dauwhe> ... so we need to make people aware of that
16:41:09 <liisamk> ack Karen
16:41:10 <dauwhe> Karen: I sent a note to the co-chairs
16:41:11 <ivan> present+ karen
16:41:21 <dauwhe> ... that EBSCO has joined W3C
16:41:28 <dauwhe> ... and they are very interested in a11y
16:41:38 <Bill_Kasdorf> Great to get EBSCO on board!!!!
16:41:38 <dauwhe> .. and they want to help participate in educating people
16:42:07 <dauwhe> .., we could work with WAI on outreach and educational materials
16:42:19 <dauwhe> liisamk: the other piece... we've heard vague things about struggles with a11y
16:42:41 <dauwhe> ... I spent a lot of the summer on one particular book
16:42:52 <dauwhe> ... and how hard it is to test pre-publication
16:43:08 <dauwhe> ... there's something we can and should be doing to help around a11y testing
16:43:15 <dauwhe> ... info that's hard to come by
16:43:28 <jeff> q+
16:43:32 <dauwhe> liisamk: comments? quesitos?
16:43:37 <liisamk> ack jeff
16:43:47 <jeff> http://library.ifla.org/2526/7/081-martinezcalvo-en.pdf
16:43:53 <dauwhe> jeff: I said earlier I didn't know what this was about and you mentioned 2025
16:44:04 <dauwhe> ... and I found this PDF (link above)
16:44:24 <dauwhe> ... this article makes it clear there is a thing, euro directive NNNN.N
16:44:41 <Bill_Kasdorf> s/euro/EU
16:44:51 <dauwhe> ... so we should, at a minimum, that if you create an EPUB 3,2 doc does that automatically fulfil the requirements
16:45:20 <ivan> q+
16:45:39 <dauwhe> ... if the answer is no, but the way you fix it is orthogonal to EPUB, like WCAG
16:45:50 <dauwhe> ... or maybe we need to fix something in EPUB
16:46:08 <liisamk> ack ivan
16:46:30 <dauwhe> ivan: if someone produced html 5, is it accessible? No. This is the same thing.
16:46:44 <dauwhe> ... epub provides all the facilities to create a fully accessible epub
16:46:52 <jeff> q+ to comment on the EPUB HTML analogy vis-a-vis accessibility
16:47:06 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
16:47:11 <liisamk> ack jeff
16:47:11 <Zakim> jeff, you wanted to comment on the EPUB HTML analogy vis-a-vis accessibility
16:47:18 <dauwhe> jeff: the analogy to html is interesting
16:47:43 <dauwhe> ... if you do html that's wcag-compliant than we know the EU will say that is sufficiently accessible
16:47:58 <dauwhe> ... the question becomes, what do we recommend for the EPUB world
16:48:09 <dauwhe> ... maybe if you do WCAG in the HTML, you're done
16:48:15 <dauwhe> q+
16:48:28 <liisamk> ack Bill_Kasdorf
16:48:30 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: it depends on what the EU directive says
16:48:35 <dauwhe> ... what do they mean by accessible
16:48:38 <jeff> s/WCAG in the HTML/WCAG in the EPUB/
16:48:45 <dauwhe> ... WCAG itself has 3 levels of compliance
16:49:01 <dauwhe> ... epub a11y calls for WCAG AA
16:49:14 <dauwhe> ... the reason I got on the queue was to pick up on ivan's comments
16:49:37 <wolfgang> wolfgang has joined #pbg
16:49:37 <dauwhe> ... it's convienient that epubcheck work is done by DAISY, who also created Ace, the epub a11y checker?
16:50:18 <dauwhe> ... if there's anyone who could put messages in epubcheck about a11y, it's DAISY
16:50:29 <liisamk> ack dauwhe
16:50:48 <Ralph> dauwhe: as Bill hinted, there are formal a11y guidelines for EPUB
16:51:00 <Ralph> ... these point to WCAG for the HTML consituents
16:51:16 <Ralph> ... and there's a formal a11y checking tool that is necessary but not sufficient
16:51:26 <Ralph> ... fully automated a11y checking isn't yet possible
16:51:40 <Ralph> ... but we do have guidance and infrastructure around this topic
16:51:40 <dauwhe> liisamk: any other comments?
16:51:50 <jeff> q+
16:52:01 <liisamk> ack jeff
16:52:06 <dauwhe> jeff: I think that what dave said is good news
16:52:31 <dauwhe> ... it sounds like we might believe that if you do epub 3.2 with some additional pointers to wcag or EPUB a11y guidelines
16:52:39 <dauwhe> ... that we meet 2025 regulations
16:52:51 <Ralph> s/yet possible/possible
16:53:13 <dauwhe> ... it probably would be a good idea if someone could write a one-pager on how, if you're writing an ebook, and want to comply with the EU directives, do this.
16:53:21 <dauwhe> ... it would be useful and not a lot of effort.
16:53:32 <dauwhe> ...we could share it with our amazon colleagues
16:53:43 <liisamk> q+
16:53:48 <dauwhe> ... I don't know who the expert is, but it doesn't sound like a large task
16:53:59 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
16:54:06 <dauwhe> liisamk: I think it could be interesting to see what the EU says is the right validation
16:54:16 <ivan> ack liisamk
16:54:21 <dauwhe> ... and to Bill's point there are some warnings there that could be scary and hard to parse
16:54:53 <dauwhe> ... but we learned over the summer with both links and footnotes and with indexes that were actually not at all functional in most reading systems from a11y perspective but didn't fail the checkers
16:55:02 <dauwhe> ... so we haven't worked through all of that
16:55:16 <liisamk> ack liisamk
16:55:27 <liisamk> ack Bill_Kasdorf
16:55:30 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: on jeff's suggestion, I might be a candidate the write that
16:55:44 <dauwhe> ... I have a column in publishers weekly
16:55:46 <wolfgang> s/the write/to write/
16:55:54 <jeff> Bill++
16:56:22 <ivan> Topic: short/long term business issues
16:56:27 <dauwhe> liisamk: any short term/long term business issues that need to be discussed?
16:58:09 <Karen> +1 Bill's action on accessibility
16:58:12 <dauwhe> liisamk: sounds like our actions are Bill: writing on a11y, and are there things to fix in epub a11y?
16:58:28 <dauwhe> ... and go raise money for epubcheck!
16:58:35 <dauwhe> ... thanks everyone
16:58:42 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:58:42 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/10/29-pbg-minutes.html ivan
16:58:42 <ivan> zakim, bye
16:58:42 <ivan> rrsagent, bye
16:58:42 <RRSAgent> I see no action items
16:58:42 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been ivan, Daihei, dauwhe, ralph, liisa, karen, billk, Bill_Kasdorf, jeff, JulieBlair, liisamk, david_stroup, Dan_Sanicola,
16:58:42 <Zakim> Zakim has left #pbg
16:58:45 <Zakim> ... Jonathan_Greenberg, mateus, Rachel