14:59:47 RRSAgent has joined #tt 14:59:47 logging to https://www.w3.org/2019/10/03-tt-irc 14:59:49 RRSAgent, make logs public 14:59:49 Zakim has joined #tt 14:59:51 Meeting: Timed Text Working Group Teleconference 14:59:51 Date: 03 October 2019 15:00:14 Present: Atsushi, Nigel 15:00:21 Chair: Nigel 15:01:13 scribe: nigel 15:01:28 Log: https://www.w3.org/2019/10/03-tt-irc 15:01:30 Present: glenn 15:01:39 Agenda: https://github.com/w3c/ttwg/issues/70 15:01:50 Present: Atsushi, Nigel, Glenn 15:03:01 Present+ Pierre 15:03:04 tmichel has joined #tt 15:03:34 Present+ Gary, Thierry 15:03:54 Present+ Cyril 15:04:15 Regrets: Andreas 15:05:08 irc only 15:05:23 Present+ 15:05:29 Topic: This meeting 15:05:39 Nigel: Anything for WebVTT? 15:05:43 Gary: No, nothing to discuss 15:06:01 Nigel: Then we have 2 TTML2 issues, and maybe we can quickly resolve the editorial issue about apostrophes too. 15:06:10 .. Plus one IMSC issue. 15:06:29 .. In AOB I've included the Charter, but more pressingly the upcoming DST change. 15:06:41 .. Is there any other business to cover? 15:07:56 Pierre: [wants to cover the font issue already on the agenda for IMSC] 15:08:20 Topic: Remove constraint on presence of xml:id (#989). ttml2#1162 15:08:26 github: https://github.com/w3c/ttml2/pull/1162 15:08:50 pal has joined #tt 15:09:22 Nigel: [summarises issue] 15:09:34 Pierre: My understanding is the proposal is to revert to the constraints of TTML1 15:09:46 .. which as was pointed out by many leads to some unexpected outcomes in some corner cases. 15:11:03 We have an approval on this already, so given there was no inclination to accept my suggestion to go further, we can go with what we have now. 15:12:18 Nigel: This PR removes any sense of definition that an out of line [thing] must have an xml:id and a [thing] without 15:12:33 .. an xml:id is not an "out of line" [thing]. 15:12:38 .. That brings it into line with TTML1. 15:12:43 Pierre: Right, I think this is good to go. 15:12:56 Nigel: Any other views or questions? 15:13:01 group: [no other views] 15:13:27 Cyril: So we're favouring consistency with TTML1 even though we know there is a weird behaviour. 15:13:36 .. Glenn suggested an option to edit TTML1. Is that an option. 15:13:52 Pierre: Unless there's a concrete use case I think we should not bother. 15:14:03 .. There's more risk and effort backporting something to TTML1 than leaving it as is. 15:14:09 s/option./option? 15:14:58 Nigel: I agree I haven't seen a concrete use case. 15:15:15 Pierre: There's a bunch of unexpected behaviours but every time we've run into one we've decided that 15:15:24 .. if there's no use case we should accept it, and we should continue doing that. 15:16:58 Cyril: I don't know if it is a concrete use case but clearly [missed] 15:17:07 .. we should at least have tests and check that it is consistent. 15:17:20 Pierre: I really like that idea, it's like what we did with some timing corner cases. 15:17:47 Nigel: Glenn already mentioned on the issue that he could create validation and presentation tests. 15:18:12 Nigel: I think we have consensus to go ahead with this if there are no other points? 15:18:14 I need to add tests for this PR before merging anyway, so I can add something for bar and alone unidentified region 15:18:16 Cyril: Yes 15:19:03 .. A lone unidentified region means nothing will ever be displayed. 15:19:12 Pierre: That's right, we should create a test like this, it's an excellent idea. 15:19:13 s/bar and alone/bare and alone/ 15:19:59 PROPOSAL: Proceed with this PR as is and add associated tests. 15:20:03 Nigel: Any objections? 15:20:11 RESOLUTION: Proceed with this PR as is and add associated tests. 15:20:36 Topic: Add informative note to tts:fontStyle recommending use of tts:shear instead of tts:fontStyle="italic" for Japanese text. ttml2#1120 15:20:42 github: https://github.com/w3c/ttml2/issues/1120 15:21:05 Nigel: The question here is do we have consensus to move this issue to IMSC? 15:21:15 Cyril: Yes from me, at least. 15:21:25 PROPOSAL: Move this issue to IMSC 15:21:31 Nigel: Any objections? 15:21:50 RESOLUTION: Move this issue to IMSC 15:22:30 Pierre: I can do this now, to IMSC repo? 15:22:32 Nigel: Yes 15:22:34 Pierre: Done! 15:23:08 Topic: Fix syntax coloring problem by using character ref for apostrophe. ttml2#1170 15:23:18 github: https://github.com/w3c/ttml2/pull/1170 15:25:20 Nigel: Seeking a view from TTML editors? 15:25:42 Pierre: It's a pain to do this. There are 250 changes. 15:26:02 Cyril: It's difficult, I agree with Nigel that it will not be easy for other Editors to remember it and they might forget to do it. 15:26:18 .. But I also think that Glenn is doing all the editing these days and we heavily rely on him so if it hinders him 15:26:36 .. from doing his job we should accept the change. What he said is also correct that future editors can revert the change. 15:26:36 Without this change, I cannot do any further edits. 15:26:54 Cyril: On the editorial side I would approve the request. 15:27:19 .. The burden will be on Glenn to maintain it if other Editors contribute and use ' instead of ' 15:27:21 And it is a trivial change using M-x query replace. 15:27:34 PROPOSAL: Accept this pull request 15:27:36 Sure, that's reasonable. 15:27:37 Nigel: Any objections? 15:28:01 Pierre: I don't object to this change but the characterisation on the pull request is wrong - it is not trivial. 15:28:33 RESOLUTION: Accept this pull request 15:28:43 Nigel: I will press the Approve button. 15:28:53 Thanks 15:29:01 .. Done 15:29:45 Topic: Add support for #font imsc#485 15:29:50 github: https://github.com/w3c/imsc/pull/485 15:31:03 Nigel: I saw a potential for differing interpretations here, and proposed some options. 15:31:12 Pierre: I think we should go with bytes transferred. 15:31:29 Nigel: That's fine, but given the "loaded" terminology from WOFF, maybe we should use a different non-conflicting term. 15:31:45 .. WOFF says "loaded" is post-decompression. 15:32:01 Pierre: [Wonders what the HTTP spec calls this] 15:32:24 Cyril: What happens if HTTP does gzip compression? Do we count it before de-compression or after? 15:32:34 has a well defined @size attr that applies when one has 15:33:02 Pierre: The link above defines transfer length 15:34:04 .. the wording specifies the post-gzip decompression size. 15:34:13 .. Let's look at the size attribute in data in TTML2 15:34:30 Nigel: It has length not size, I think we mean that. 15:35:12 yes, @length that is 15:35:17 Pierre: It talks about the number of decoded bytes 15:35:25 Nigel: Presumably that must be post-decompression for it to make any sense 15:36:39 Pierre: I think we should keep it simple and use transfer-length. 15:37:13 actually, @length is only used with simple data embedding; so it would not apply to sourced embeddings; however, the model may be useful 15:37:24 .. This is after any transfer coding, i.e. after gzip. 15:37:29 .. What about entity length? 15:37:51 .. This is section 7.2, before any transfer-codings have been applied. 15:38:13 Nigel: What is a transfer-coding? 15:38:18 Pierre: like gzip 15:38:23 I would prefer that length mean post-transfer-encoding processing, i.e., entity length 15:38:28 Cyril: Do we have any tools for verifying against the HTM? 15:38:47 Pierre: I'm not aware of an open source tool that does it, but I have not checked TTV recently. 15:38:53 s/Do we/Side question: do we 15:39:01 by which I really mean post-decoding of any transfer-encoding 15:39:06 Cyril: We could be looking for a solution that will never be used. 15:39:22 Pierre: Even though it is not formally implemented, the goal is to prevent somebody from doing something stupid 15:39:34 .. like providing a 100MB or 1GB font resource and wondering why the client fails. 15:39:39 .. It's setting reasonable limits. 15:39:46 Cyril: We don't need the HRM for that though? 15:39:55 Pierre: No but it's the right place in the spec for it, to Glenn's point. 15:40:05 .. Here I think we're just looking for the right term. 15:40:19 .. In the case of HTTP it is called the entity-length. 15:40:40 Cyril: You could say that if you download everything locally then it should be that. 15:40:51 Pierre: Nigel was pointing out that "loaded" has a definition in WOFF. 15:40:54 if "entity length" means the number of bytes in a resource after removing any transfer encoding, then that is what I would suggest be used 15:41:08 Cyril: I would say we note that we don't mean the WOFF term. 15:41:14 Nigel: I still think that would be vague. 15:41:47 we should not tie this constraint to the semantics of internal compression support in a given font format 15:42:02 .. I think we're in the right territory with entity-length and transfer-length and just need to work out which one we want. 15:42:40 Pierre: Is there anything else blocking this PR? 15:42:45 Nigel: Nothing else as far as I can tell. 15:42:53 Pierre: I'm going to try to come up with some text right now. 15:44:07 Nigel: Looks like transfer-length could be zipped, whereas the entity-length is pre-transfer-coding, and therefore, 15:44:33 .. assuming that the post-transfer-decoding generates the same bytes as the pre-transfer-coding, then entity-length 15:44:35 .. is what we want. 15:45:20 Pierre: [working on an update that might be ready in a few seconds] 15:46:27 notes that constraints on image length is based on Decoded Image Buffer size, which suggest something like entity length 15:46:42 Pierre: [pushes the change] 15:47:44 Nigel: [reviews change] 15:47:48 -> https://github.com/w3c/imsc/pull/485/files/29b0f4de1917a1bf01c36defc7542f9f4f99282d..108a4dfaff9bc0fb98c972bb9b773b2032d7000d 15:47:56 Pierre: I think that addresses the issue you raised Nigel. 15:47:58 Nigel: Yes 15:48:48 Pierre: I plan to defer other issues. 15:48:51 just approved 15:49:05 Nigel: Just looking at the timeline of this PR, the key date was 14 days ago when the change was submitted to 15:49:09 .. address the TPAC meeting resolution. 15:49:12 Pierre: Yes 15:50:02 Nigel: Does anyone need time to review this latest change before we merge it? 15:50:09 Cyril: Can I have until the end of the day? 15:50:12 Pierre: Absolutely. 15:50:33 .. Assuming there's no major substantive change I'll work on an FPWD package, which may need some editorial changes, 15:51:02 .. to address publication checker issues, in which case I'll open another pull request and request quick review. 15:51:08 Nigel: That seems reasonable. 15:51:23 Pierre: All the other issues filed I will schedule for next WD and start working on them. 15:51:50 SUMMARY: Change accepted by those in the meeting, PR can be merged no earlier than end of current working day. 15:51:52 btw, I posted some recent issues against IMSC 1.2, which may require substantive changes 15:52:20 Cyril: Did Vladimir review this pull request? 15:52:22 Nigel: I don't think so. 15:52:28 Cyril: We should at least ping him. 15:52:38 Pierre: For the feature in general or the specific change? 15:52:50 Cyril: He may have a valuable comment, but we shouldn't delay FPWD. 15:53:01 Pierre: I agree, how do we do it. I can send him an email? 15:53:12 Cyril: Yes go ahead. I'll talk to him about it next week too. 15:53:21 github-bot, end topic 15:53:43 Topic: AOB - DST 15:54:18 Nigel: I proposed 2 options on the agenda. 15:55:40 .. [summarises agenda proposals] 15:55:45 .. We can't have it so everyone wins here. 15:55:56 Cyril: If it goes 1 hour earlier, then until mid-December I would not be able to attend. 15:56:10 Pierre: I've moved my schedule around so joining an hour earlier might be very difficult for me. 15:56:18 Atsushi: I can manage 1 hour later in JST. 15:56:48 Nigel: Thank you, in that case I think we will adopt proposal 1, to keep the same local time and make UTC track the DST change in the US. 15:57:12 .. I'll send that out and if any non-attendees here have a comment to make then they can do so on the reflector. 15:57:38 Topic: Charter update 15:57:46 Atsushi: No further update from me. 15:57:51 Topic: Meeting close 15:58:34 Nigel: We've completed our agenda, thank you everyone. 15:58:51 .. Please do add agenda topics to next week's agenda issue on the ttwg repo. 15:58:56 .. [adjourns meeting] 15:59:00 rrsagent. make minutes 15:59:06 s/rrsagent. make minutes// 15:59:12 rrsagent, make minutes 15:59:12 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/10/03-tt-minutes.html nigel 16:15:53 s/group: [no other views]// 16:16:33 s/but clearly [missed]/but clearly [scribe missed due to audio break-up] 16:18:44 s/.. Done/Nigel: Done 16:20:12 i/Pierre: The link above/-> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2616#section-4.4 RFC2616 transfer-length 16:20:39 s/HTM/HRM 16:21:49 s/github-bot, end topic// 16:22:01 rrsagent, make minutes v2 16:22:01 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/10/03-tt-minutes.html nigel