IRC log of silver on 2019-09-27
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 17:36:18 [RRSAgent]
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- logging to https://www.w3.org/2019/09/27-silver-irc
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- RRSAgent, make logs world
- 17:36:22 [jeanne]
- present:
- 17:36:23 [trackbot]
- Meeting: Silver Community Group Teleconference
- 17:36:23 [trackbot]
- Date: 27 September 2019
- 17:36:29 [jeanne]
- zakim, clear agenda
- 17:36:29 [Zakim]
- agenda cleared
- 17:36:35 [jeanne]
- chair: jeanne
- 17:36:39 [jeanne]
- regrets+ Shawn
- 17:37:00 [jeanne]
- agenda+ Reminder about W3C member voting for AGWG charter, including Silver
- 17:37:01 [jeanne]
- agenda+ Select migrated SC and new SC for Silver FPWD
- 17:37:01 [jeanne]
- agenda+ Issues and Exceptions - continue discussion of minimum or required guidance
- 17:40:30 [LuisG]
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- 17:44:13 [jeanne]
- regrets+ Cybele
- 17:45:04 [janina_]
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- 17:48:06 [jeanne]
- zakim, take up item 1
- 17:48:06 [Zakim]
- agendum 1. "Reminder about W3C member voting for AGWG charter, including Silver" taken up [from jeanne]
- 17:58:00 [Chuck]
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- present+
- 17:59:26 [CharlesHall]
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- 18:00:02 [bruce_bailey]
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- 18:00:16 [bruce_bailey]
- present+
- 18:00:21 [CharlesHall]
- present+
- 18:01:06 [jeanne]
- present+ jeanne, Jennison
- 18:01:46 [johnkirkwood]
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- 18:05:41 [KimD]
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- 18:05:51 [KimD]
- Present+
- 18:06:12 [pkorn]
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- 18:06:32 [pkorn]
- present+
- 18:06:41 [LuisG]
- present+
- 18:07:12 [johnkirkwood]
- present+
- 18:07:23 [Chuck]
- Peter we hear you.
- 18:08:21 [pkorn]
- Thanks Chuck
- 18:09:04 [janina_]
- present+
- 18:09:49 [jeanne]
- AGWG charter is open until 8 October 2019
- 18:09:57 [Chuck]
- Hoping to avoid scribing, not feeling the best.
- 18:10:15 [jeanne]
- Kim: Can people other than the AC rep see the form?
- 18:10:46 [jeanne]
- Michael: THere are 3 questions, one of them will have a place for comments
- 18:11:10 [janina_]
- scribe: janina
- 18:11:47 [jeanne]
- zakim,take up next
- 18:11:47 [Zakim]
- agendum 2. "Select migrated SC and new SC for Silver FPWD" taken up [from jeanne]
- 18:12:07 [janina_]
- js: Picking up from Tuesday's conversation ...
- 18:12:15 [janina_]
- js: FPWD of Silver expected late November
- 18:12:33 [janina_]
- js: We need to decide what we can put in by then
- 18:12:56 [janina_]
- js: Suggestion was one SC, Color Contrast
- 18:13:09 [janina_]
- js: Plus one of the new proposals from COGA or LV
- 18:13:18 [pkorn]
- queue+
- 18:13:43 [janina_]
- js: Have action to find the proposals--now sent and on Wiki
- 18:13:45 [jeanne]
- https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/silver/wiki/Main_Page#New_Content_Proposals_from_Task_Forces_and_Prototypes
- 18:14:41 [janina_]
- pk: Offering to work on challenges language to get it includable
- 18:15:47 [janina_]
- js: Hope to have some proposed lang by next Tuesday's call
- 18:16:13 [janina_]
- js: Have gui9deline, description, methods, test ... Presented to aGWG and other TFs for feedback
- 18:16:21 [janina_]
- js: to give us new content to see how it might fit
- 18:16:32 [janina_]
- js: Clear wording from COGA
- 18:16:36 [janina_]
- js: Enable api
- 18:16:48 [janina_]
- js: Point of regard and text spacing from LV
- 18:17:13 [janina_]
- q+ to discuss spacing possibility for tech solution
- 18:18:16 [janina_]
- js: Let people where they are in a multi screen task re one of the CoGA pieces
- 18:18:26 [janina_]
- js: e.g. step 3 of 7
- 18:18:48 [janina_]
- js: Started draft on "clear words"
- 18:19:11 [janina_]
- js: Becky Gibson had begun work on enabling APIs
- 18:19:44 [CharlesHall]
- q+ to confirm if these are indeed active as none of the 5 appear in the 2.2 spreadsheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/11IKqjRFvkRd2dAfUiyc5whhB3yIYXvSiirWct7KQIB0/edit?usp=sharing
- 18:20:23 [pkorn]
- queue-
- 18:20:37 [jeanne]
- ack jan
- 18:20:37 [Zakim]
- janina_, you wanted to discuss spacing possibility for tech solution
- 18:21:16 [LuisG]
- janina: some of what we're writing guidance for...we're trying to push some of that forward
- 18:21:55 [LuisG]
- .. there is a CSS taskforce and we're discussing whether we have what we need for a user to define what would work for them
- 18:22:33 [LuisG]
- .. the new one is whether we can manage a different spacing after punctuation; defining what you want after that could be problematic because of things like "i.e."
- 18:23:01 [LuisG]
- .. it seems it should be possible to make it easier to create a configuration that would control that. might not be necessary for Silver to do it if the uses can manage it themselves
- 18:23:38 [LuisG]
- .. some of what we're working on, might want to come up with technical solutions rather than best practices guidance
- 18:24:03 [LuisG]
- js: that's exciting news; but I think this is still important because we're not just talking about web/html technology.
- 18:24:08 [Chuck]
- q+
- 18:24:17 [LuisG]
- .. in VR, people would want to be able to control spacing, etc.
- 18:24:36 [LuisG]
- .. we would still want to include it, but not make it something the author would have to do; maybe something a user agent could do
- 18:24:50 [CharlesHall]
- +1 to Jeanne – still have guidance regardless of the ease of availability of technology solutions
- 18:25:10 [LuisG]
- janina: and using stylesheets never really ended up being something successful for users; the thinking is maybe we can do better at that
- 18:25:19 [LuisG]
- .. the VR and emerging tech is a whole other issue
- 18:25:39 [LuisG]
- js: I've always been a believer in it being a user agent rather than authoring function
- 18:25:58 [LuisG]
- .. it's a good point to maybe not have it as an early success criterion and instead wait
- 18:26:23 [LuisG]
- janina: it brings up questions about what kind of guidance this is? authoring, user agent, or can we create some kind of technological solution; a kind of AT
- 18:26:35 [jeanne]
- q?
- 18:27:32 [LuisG]
- .. since we brought up VR...we had some discussions and got walkthroughs on how some of that stuff is working; we got an understanding of what part of the stack stuff happens on...
- 18:27:48 [LuisG]
- .. I'm wondering how we write guidance for that sort of work; and that's ongoing right now
- 18:28:13 [LuisG]
- js: I didn't find all of that in the minutes
- 18:28:22 [LuisG]
- janina: it's from Friday morning; I'll send them out
- 18:28:33 [jeanne]
- q+ Jennison
- 18:28:40 [jeanne]
- ack char
- 18:28:40 [Zakim]
- CharlesHall, you wanted to confirm if these are indeed active as none of the 5 appear in the 2.2 spreadsheet:
- 18:28:42 [Zakim]
- ... https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/11IKqjRFvkRd2dAfUiyc5whhB3yIYXvSiirWct7KQIB0/edit?usp=sharing
- 18:29:16 [janina_]
- charles: Wants to point out we may still need guidance for a particular concern even if we have an emerging tech solution
- 18:30:02 [janina_]
- charles: notes none of the lv in current 2.2 sc? Should we look at these? Or others?
- 18:30:16 [janina_]
- js: We specifically asked for examples that couldn't go into 2.2
- 18:30:31 [janina_]
- charles: Understood
- 18:30:40 [jeanne]
- ack Chuck
- 18:31:07 [janina_]
- chuck: Like janina's suggestions, but all of those might be too much for our fpwd
- 18:31:24 [janina_]
- janina: agree
- 18:31:30 [jeanne]
- ack Jenni
- 18:32:47 [janina_]
- jenison: asks whether janina proposes beyond current SC?
- 18:32:55 [janina_]
- js: Yes, beyond
- 18:33:15 [janina_]
- cheuck: expansion on 2.1?
- 18:33:17 [janina_]
- js: yes
- 18:33:33 [CharlesHall]
- q+
- 18:33:42 [jeanne]
- ack charl
- 18:34:16 [janina_]
- charles: Is the suggestion for all 5 to be covered in the FPWD?
- 18:34:27 [janina_]
- js: No, likely too many to do well enough for FPWD
- 18:34:43 [janina_]
- js: We are open to volunteers to work on these, though
- 18:35:04 [janina_]
- js: Jan is eager to get COGA related SC wording suitable
- 18:35:17 [janina_]
- js: Anyone from LV willing to help with one of those?
- 18:35:41 [jeanne]
- s/get COGA/get LV
- 18:36:27 [jeanne]
- zakim, take up next
- 18:36:27 [Zakim]
- agendum 3. "Issues and Exceptions - continue discussion of minimum or required guidance" taken up [from jeanne]
- 18:36:38 [CharlesHall]
- Charles will start working on Point of Regard
- 18:37:50 [janina_]
- js: Looking at incorporating challenges concepts for FPWD conformance section
- 18:38:03 [janina_]
- pk: Think it would be great either in, or longside
- 18:38:14 [janina_]
- q+ to remind of Explainer
- 18:38:40 [janina_]
- pk: Amazon will work with whoever is interested to make draft suitable
- 18:39:04 [jeanne]
- Prototype of ED -> https://w3c.github.io/silver/prototypes/EdDraftPrototype/
- 18:39:25 [janina_]
- pk: Were it should go should be decided by folks more experienced in AGWG processes
- 18:40:00 [janina_]
- jeanne: Noting a pretty detailed conformance section where these may fit
- 18:40:43 [janina_]
- js; Notes items raised that should be in the issues doc
- 18:41:02 [Chuck]
- q+
- 18:41:37 [janina_]
- pk: Biggest mismatch I see is notion that bronze equates to WCAG 2.1
- 18:42:16 [janina_]
- pk: There being non automatable parts of WCAG 2.x we need to bridge that to the ag model
- 18:45:06 [janina_]
- janina: Expresses concern that defining an equivalence creates more problems than it solves
- 18:45:24 [janina_]
- jeanne: Much discussion on this, but never thought of it as one to one mapping
- 18:45:51 [janina_]
- jeanne: Rather as a way to help people who have made investments into meeting existence guidance some notion of where they stand in the new model
- 18:46:46 [janina_]
- pk: Suggests lang that any site meeting 2.2 is still valid, without actually tieing to a new level
- 18:46:56 [KimD]
- +1 Bronze should not equal 2.x (AA)
- 18:47:17 [janina_]
- pk: Maybe also need to more qualitatively define what we mean by bronze, silver, gold. What's the user experience diff/
- 18:47:27 [janina_]
- s/\/?/
- 18:47:54 [Chuck]
- 8th level wizards casts spell of agreement with Peter.
- 18:48:00 [janina_]
- pk: We want to convey the opportunity to keep getting better and better
- 18:48:03 [CharlesHall]
- so do Marvel comics
- 18:49:11 [jeanne]
- +1 to Peter - have a qualitative analysis discussion of what makes bronze, silver and gold levels and beyond.
- 18:49:22 [janina_]
- Luis: There will need to be numbering for correspondance to give people continuity
- 18:50:04 [janina_]
- pk: Think it's more of the user experience than simply not pass/fail test
- 18:50:24 [janina_]
- js: It's time we revisit this conversation. We had it long ago, but not recently
- 18:52:05 [janina_]
- pk: Clearly we need to avoid invalidating 2.x for all who invested in meeting that; but how many actually meet 2.x AA? Beyond the home page? Average was around 47%
- 18:52:39 [janina_]
- pk: Training, tooling and knowledge is what we must not invalidate; more than specific equivalence statements
- 18:54:23 [janina_]
- pk: 4th would be processes -- if an org has a working process around AA, we don't want to invalidate that
- 18:54:48 [CharlesHall]
- process or tools may also include the ACT rules work
- 18:54:54 [janina_]
- js: Asks for examples
- 18:55:04 [bruce_bailey]
- it may be the case that awards less than bronze may be worth including
- 18:55:24 [janina_]
- pk: Thinking of what we do at Amazon, what we did at Oracle, at Sun, they're all based around meeting current WCAG
- 18:55:37 [MichaelC]
- q+
- 18:55:44 [janina_]
- pk: These become internal processes with defined steps
- 18:56:08 [janina_]
- pk: We don't want to tell people you need to change all your ways of working
- 18:56:09 [bruce_bailey]
- at AccessU, Eric mentioned that quote wood metals unquote are actual prizes
- 18:56:23 [janina_]
- pk: Silver should preserve institutional knowledge and tooling
- 18:56:44 [jeanne]
- ack janina
- 18:56:44 [Zakim]
- janina_, you wanted to remind of Explainer
- 18:58:08 [jeanne]
- +1 to an Explainer
- 19:00:08 [Chuck]
- ack Chuck
- 19:00:47 [janina_]
- TAG Explainer of Explainers: https://w3ctag.github.io/explainers
- 19:01:02 [jeanne]
- ack Micha
- 19:01:31 [janina_]
- mc: Supports not invalidating
- 19:01:44 [janina_]
- mc: But needs to make Silver different from WCAG 2
- 19:01:58 [janina_]
- mc: Meanwhile, WCAG 2.x should remain valid for some extended period of time
- 19:02:23 [janina_]
- mc: Don't want to force change; we need a balance
- 19:03:34 [KimD]
- KimD has left #silver
- 19:04:11 [janina_]
- zakim, bye
- 19:04:11 [Zakim]
- leaving. As of this point the attendees have been Chuck, bruce_bailey, CharlesHall, jeanne, Jennison, KimD, pkorn, LuisG, johnkirkwood, janina_
- 19:04:11 [Zakim]
- Zakim has left #silver
- 19:04:18 [janina_]
- rrsagent, make minutes
- 19:04:18 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/27-silver-minutes.html janina_
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