IRC log of rqtf on 2019-09-25
Timestamps are in UTC.
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- logging to https://www.w3.org/2019/09/25-rqtf-irc
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- RRSAgent, make logs world
- 12:53:08 [Zakim]
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- Meeting: Accessible Platform Architectures Working Group Teleconference
- 12:53:10 [trackbot]
- Date: 25 September 2019
- 12:53:24 [jasonjgw]
- agenda+ Real-time communication accessibility.
- 12:53:54 [jasonjgw]
- agenda+ XR accessibility.
- 12:54:17 [jasonjgw]
- agenda+ Miscellaneous updates from TPAC, and Task Force priorities.
- 12:54:25 [jasonjgw]
- present+
- 12:54:27 [jasonjgw]
- chair: jasonjgw
- 12:57:35 [Judy]
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- 13:00:12 [Joshue108_]
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- 13:03:52 [janina]
- present+
- 13:04:08 [jasonjgw]
- zakim, next item
- 13:04:08 [Zakim]
- agendum 1. "Real-time communication accessibility." taken up [from jasonjgw]
- 13:04:11 [scott_h]
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- 13:04:12 [Joshue108_]
- present+
- 13:04:20 [Joshue108_]
- scribe: Joshue108_
- 13:04:28 [SteveNoble]
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- 13:04:31 [scott_h]
- present+
- 13:04:33 [Joshue108_]
- JW: We are talking about RTC Accessibility.
- 13:04:44 [Joshue108_]
- There was a join meeting at TPAC with the WebRTC group.
- 13:04:58 [Joshue108_]
- The Accessible RTC draft was discussed.
- 13:05:07 [Joshue108_]
- Who would like to start?
- 13:05:35 [jasonjgw]
- Josh: there was a meeting with WebRTC WG.
- 13:05:47 [SteveNoble]
- present+
- 13:06:18 [jasonjgw]
- Josh: WebRTC Working Group participants found our use cases to be valuable.
- 13:07:03 [jasonjgw]
- Josh notes the availability of implementations of real-time text, some of which require polyfill implementations; it was suggested that the approach be captured in the relevant specification.
- 13:07:29 [jasonjgw]
- Josh: the WebRTC Working Group will determine the relevance of the use cases for their work.
- 13:07:47 [janina]
- q+
- 13:08:35 [jasonjgw]
- Josh notes the request to review the IETF draft [on use of real-time text in the WebRTC data channel.]
- 13:09:03 [jasonjgw]
- Janina: we should identify what use cases may need to be resolved that may not be well served by the draft.
- 13:10:02 [Joshue108_]
- Here is that doc they would like us to review https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-data-channel-02
- 13:11:19 [Joshue108_]
- JW: I think there is a code you can input if you are using your phone away.
- 13:11:24 [Joshue108_]
- JS: That is news to me!
- 13:11:31 [Joshue108_]
- So that was a suggestion.
- 13:11:40 [Joshue108_]
- So we don't have to localise all the time.
- 13:12:08 [Joshue108_]
- So the issue seems to be what sort of buffering or delay etc needs to be implemented.
- 13:12:27 [Joshue108_]
- JS: Discussed data streaming and RTT type coms..
- 13:12:49 [Joshue108_]
- This approach may help the poor pronunciation or braille display output.
- 13:13:04 [Joshue108_]
- JW: Yeah, like waiting for an end of line, and waiting indefinitely.
- 13:13:11 [Joshue108_]
- JS: That is the emergency concern.
- 13:13:28 [Joshue108_]
- They will get what ever is transmitted, but where is the time out.
- 13:13:39 [Joshue108_]
- q+ to ask about the review of https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-data-channel-02
- 13:14:04 [Joshue108_]
- SH: Great to hear it all went well.
- 13:14:14 [Joshue108_]
- JS: We had a great week, there is a lot to report.
- 13:14:39 [Joshue108_]
- JW: I've looked at the draft, included in the minutes.
- 13:15:45 [Joshue108_]
- ack jan
- 13:16:01 [Joshue108_]
- ack me
- 13:16:01 [Zakim]
- Joshue108_, you wanted to ask about the review of https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-data-channel-02
- 13:16:12 [Judy]
- q+
- 13:16:20 [jasonjgw]
- Josh: inquires about the details of the review process.
- 13:16:41 [Joshue108_]
- q+ Judy
- 13:16:47 [Joshue108_]
- ack Judy
- 13:17:13 [Joshue108_]
- JB: Dom and I have something to go about explaining the ways RTT can be done and linking with the polyfill implementation.
- 13:17:21 [Joshue108_]
- That needs to get tied in with APA.
- 13:17:54 [Joshue108_]
- JS: And they said the reason WebRTC doesn't say so much about RTT is that the IETF spec covers this.
- 13:18:20 [jasonjgw]
- Josh inquires whether the message was that the IETF spec will cover the RTT use cases.
- 13:19:00 [Joshue108_]
- JW: I've had a look at this spec.
- 13:19:21 [Joshue108_]
- It is a detailed control level spec for how to transfer RTT over the WebRTC data channel.
- 13:19:59 [Joshue108_]
- It is some kind of reliable protocol, they are aiming to define the protocol and WebRTC will mint APIs to support it.
- 13:20:29 [Joshue108_]
- It does define the direction of text, if it is send only etc.
- 13:20:54 [Joshue108_]
- JS: Are you saying the IETF RFC refers to WebRTC in the data channel of the WebRTC spec?
- 13:21:05 [Joshue108_]
- JW: Its a divided deliverable.
- 13:22:04 [Joshue108_]
- JOC: It doesn't refer to the W3C WebRTC spec.
- 13:22:31 [Joshue108_]
- JS: WebRTC gave us the interesting reponse about the IETF doing protocols and we do web APIs.
- 13:22:52 [Joshue108_]
- Not suprised, but until IETF finish the protocol how are they write the API?
- 13:23:18 [Joshue108_]
- It confims our suspicion that the data channel is sufficient.
- 13:23:32 [Joshue108_]
- JW: Consistent with my understanding.
- 13:24:46 [Joshue108_]
- We were told ~ that VoiceOver works, we were urged to share our use cases with IETF.
- 13:24:52 [jasonjgw]
- Josh wishes to ensure that the different responsibilities are understood and taken into account.
- 13:25:25 [Joshue108_]
- JS: The WebRTC data channel may be sufficient but they need to be talked about and validated more.
- 13:25:28 [Joshue108_]
- q?
- 13:25:38 [Joshue108_]
- The next steps are they we look at this document.
- 13:26:16 [Joshue108_]
- ACTION: Josh and Jason to review IETF doc https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-data-channel-02
- 13:26:16 [trackbot]
- Created ACTION-2213 - And jason to review ietf doc https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-data-channel-02 [on Joshue O Connor - due 2019-10-02].
- 13:27:16 [Joshue108_]
- JS: We've got to look at community groups etc.
- 13:27:30 [Joshue108_]
- JW: Lets continue this next week.
- 13:27:42 [Joshue108_]
- Anything else on RTC?
- 13:27:48 [Joshue108_]
- zakim, agenda?
- 13:27:48 [Zakim]
- I see 3 items remaining on the agenda:
- 13:27:49 [Zakim]
- 1. Real-time communication accessibility. [from jasonjgw]
- 13:27:49 [Zakim]
- 2. XR accessibility. [from jasonjgw]
- 13:27:49 [Zakim]
- 3. Miscellaneous updates from TPAC, and Task Force priorities. [from jasonjgw]
- 13:28:03 [jasonjgw]
- zakim, next item
- 13:28:03 [Zakim]
- agendum 2. "XR accessibility." taken up [from jasonjgw]
- 13:28:38 [Joshue108_]
- JS: So unlike RTC that was a one hour meet, we spent ~ 3-4 hours talking about XR.
- 13:29:08 [Joshue108_]
- We had enlightening sessions, the intro to 3D on Friday morning by Nell from Amazon was very good.
- 13:29:39 [Joshue108_]
- Aims to develop a common vocabulary so we can work together.
- 13:29:45 [Joshue108_]
- It is well minuted.
- 13:30:00 [Joshue108_]
- https://www.w3.org/2019/09/20-apa-minutes.html#item01
- 13:30:38 [Joshue108_]
- JS: There was also the conversation from the day before. But we talked XR on the Thurs sesh, the APA sesh anetc
- 13:30:50 [Joshue108_]
- s/anetc/etc
- 13:31:01 [Joshue108_]
- JW: Thats helpful Janina, I've read some.
- 13:31:18 [Joshue108_]
- Good discussion on rendering, and related AOM discussion and scene graphs.
- 13:31:26 [Joshue108_]
- So valuable territory was addressed.
- 13:31:31 [Joshue108_]
- q+
- 13:31:48 [Joshue108_]
- JW: So what are the central ideas that will help with use cases etc.
- 13:32:09 [Joshue108_]
- JS: The AOM converstaions were in the TAG hour, AOM and scene graphs etc.
- 13:32:27 [Joshue108_]
- My take away was that, we are not the only ones with concerns to have semantic data coming out of XR.
- 13:32:46 [Joshue108_]
- Immersive web and XR people want to get to doing declarative programming and semantics.
- 13:32:56 [Joshue108_]
- So I think this is a common goal and I'm heartened by that.
- 13:33:10 [Joshue108_]
- It takes the WebGL, WebGPU stuff off the table IMO.
- 13:33:23 [Joshue108_]
- glTF seems promising for WebGL.
- 13:33:56 [Joshue108_]
- That was confirmed by Nell, Ada and other folks but the main concern is the semantics we need, and matching that with their requirements.
- 13:34:28 [Joshue108_]
- SH: Do you think it is more of a technology or terminology issue?
- 13:34:42 [Joshue108_]
- Is this from a semantic POV or from just having the conversation.
- 13:35:12 [Joshue108_]
- JS: I took away that we were using similar terms but coming at them from diff angles - we need a common vocab.
- 13:35:37 [Joshue108_]
- Alice was quite involved - so is our model a tree or more like a scene graph?
- 13:36:00 [Joshue108_]
- This distinction is an open question - immersive web are more scene graph oreintated.
- 13:36:28 [Joshue108_]
- FOr interative or augmented envs, you dont have time for static DOM/tree, you need it all at once.
- 13:36:54 [Joshue108_]
- SH: So how do we get that work into our documents?
- 13:37:48 [jasonjgw]
- Josh: affirms Janina's summary.
- 13:38:39 [jasonjgw]
- Josh: we should be clear about the generic need for declarative semantics for accessibility and other purposes.
- 13:38:56 [Judy]
- q+
- 13:39:27 [jasonjgw]
- Josh suggests we need to understand how different components of the stack work, how semantic scene graphs work, and what is needed on the semantic side.
- 13:39:55 [jasonjgw]
- He thinks we may need to combine current accessibility tree-oriented approaches with semantic scene graphs.
- 13:40:26 [jasonjgw]
- In summary, Josh thinks the various aspects of this landscape need to be better defined an understood for purposes of a dialogue.
- 13:40:26 [Joshue108_]
- ack me
- 13:40:27 [Judy]
- q+ to discuss timing, and circulation of a backgrounder
- 13:40:55 [Joshue108_]
- ack Jud
- 13:40:55 [Zakim]
- Judy, you wanted to discuss timing, and circulation of a backgrounder
- 13:41:44 [Joshue108_]
- q+
- 13:43:25 [jasonjgw]
- Josh considers the notes to be of high quality.
- 13:43:32 [Joshue108_]
- https://www.w3.org/2019/09/20-apa-minutes.html#item01
- 13:43:40 [Joshue108_]
- ack me
- 13:44:37 [jasonjgw]
- Josh is currently capturing the ideas for purposes of understanding the material. These notes can be developed into a primer, once shared with the group.
- 13:54:45 [Joshue108_]
- <discussions on attending Inclusive XR workshop>
- 13:55:19 [Joshue108_]
- Some of us may make it.
- 13:55:40 [jasonjgw]
- zakim, next item
- 13:55:40 [Zakim]
- agendum 3. "Miscellaneous updates from TPAC, and Task Force priorities." taken up [from jasonjgw]
- 13:56:06 [Joshue108_]
- JW: Part of the intent is to consider what are priorities will be post TPAC.
- 13:56:16 [Joshue108_]
- We've done that, and know what we need to do.
- 13:56:30 [Joshue108_]
- Are there other TF conversations that should be noted.
- 13:56:43 [Joshue108_]
- JB: I've started doing debriefs.
- 13:57:10 [Joshue108_]
- JS: Relevant to this, we had a good meet with Authentication people, decentralised identifiers.
- 13:57:17 [Joshue108_]
- We asked for CAPTCHA to die.
- 13:57:30 [Joshue108_]
- They may be able to kill it. They validated what we have reported.
- 13:57:36 [Joshue108_]
- No disagreement.
- 13:57:42 [Joshue108_]
- SH: Thats great.
- 13:58:07 [Joshue108_]
- JW: Yes indeed. The AGWG are also talking about authentication. etc
- 13:58:33 [Joshue108_]
- I've also sent a note to the chairs of AGWG offering help but not had a response.
- 13:58:49 [Joshue108_]
- We have things to offer, and I'm not sure if they've read our doc.
- 13:58:57 [Joshue108_]
- q+
- 13:59:14 [Joshue108_]
- JW: Is there any authenitcation stuff to bring back to the TF?
- 13:59:17 [Joshue108_]
- JS: No.
- 13:59:24 [Joshue108_]
- ack me
- 13:59:57 [jasonjgw]
- Josh: notes discussion of the FAST which clarified the objectives of the document.
- 14:00:07 [Joshue108_]
- http://w3c.github.io/apa/fast/checklist
- 14:01:15 [Judy]
- [JB: Yes -- FAST is *really* hard to find -- let's fix that!]
- 14:03:59 [Joshue108_]
- We need a user needs discovery on FAST for anyone developing accessibility specs, then we need to iterate it.
- 14:04:58 [jasonjgw]
- zakim, bye
- 14:04:58 [Zakim]
- leaving. As of this point the attendees have been jasonjgw, janina, Joshue108_, scott_h, SteveNoble
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- rrsagent, make minutes
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- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/25-rqtf-minutes.html jasonjgw
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