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12:53:10 <trackbot> Meeting: Accessible Platform Architectures Working Group Teleconference
12:53:10 <trackbot> Date: 25 September 2019
12:53:24 <jasonjgw> agenda+ Real-time communication accessibility.
12:53:54 <jasonjgw> agenda+ XR accessibility.
12:54:17 <jasonjgw> agenda+ Miscellaneous updates from TPAC, and Task Force priorities.
12:54:25 <jasonjgw> present+
12:54:27 <jasonjgw> chair: jasonjgw
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13:03:52 <janina> present+
13:04:08 <jasonjgw> zakim, next item
13:04:08 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Real-time communication accessibility." taken up [from jasonjgw]
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13:04:12 <Joshue108_> present+
13:04:20 <Joshue108_> scribe: Joshue108_
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13:04:31 <scott_h> present+
13:04:33 <Joshue108_> JW: We are talking about RTC Accessibility.
13:04:44 <Joshue108_> There was a join meeting at TPAC with the WebRTC group.
13:04:58 <Joshue108_> The Accessible RTC draft was discussed.
13:05:07 <Joshue108_> Who would like to start?
13:05:35 <jasonjgw> Josh: there was a meeting with WebRTC WG.
13:05:47 <SteveNoble> present+
13:06:18 <jasonjgw> Josh: WebRTC Working Group participants found our use cases to be valuable.
13:07:03 <jasonjgw> Josh notes the availability of implementations of real-time text, some of which require polyfill implementations; it was suggested that the approach be captured in the relevant specification.
13:07:29 <jasonjgw> Josh: the WebRTC Working Group will determine the relevance of the use cases for their work.
13:07:47 <janina> q+
13:08:35 <jasonjgw> Josh notes the request to review the IETF draft [on use of real-time text in the WebRTC data channel.]
13:09:03 <jasonjgw> Janina: we should identify what use cases may need to be resolved that may not be well served by the draft.
13:10:02 <Joshue108_> Here is that doc they would like us to review https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-data-channel-02
13:11:19 <Joshue108_> JW: I think there is a code you can input if you are using your phone away.
13:11:24 <Joshue108_> JS: That is news to me!
13:11:31 <Joshue108_> So that was a suggestion.
13:11:40 <Joshue108_> So we don't have to localise all the time.
13:12:08 <Joshue108_> So the issue seems to be what sort of buffering or delay etc needs to be implemented.
13:12:27 <Joshue108_> JS: Discussed data streaming and RTT type coms..
13:12:49 <Joshue108_> This approach may help the poor pronunciation or braille display output.
13:13:04 <Joshue108_> JW: Yeah, like waiting for an end of line, and waiting indefinitely.
13:13:11 <Joshue108_> JS: That is the emergency concern.
13:13:28 <Joshue108_> They will get what ever is transmitted, but where is the time out.
13:13:39 <Joshue108_> q+ to ask about the review of https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-data-channel-02
13:14:04 <Joshue108_> SH: Great to hear it all went well.
13:14:14 <Joshue108_> JS: We had a great week, there is a lot to report.
13:14:39 <Joshue108_> JW: I've looked at the draft, included in the minutes.
13:15:45 <Joshue108_> ack jan
13:16:01 <Joshue108_> ack me
13:16:01 <Zakim> Joshue108_, you wanted to ask about the review of https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-data-channel-02
13:16:12 <Judy> q+
13:16:20 <jasonjgw> Josh: inquires about the details of the review process.
13:16:41 <Joshue108_> q+ Judy
13:16:47 <Joshue108_> ack Judy
13:17:13 <Joshue108_> JB: Dom and I have something to go about explaining the ways RTT can be done and linking with the polyfill implementation.
13:17:21 <Joshue108_> That needs to get tied in with APA.
13:17:54 <Joshue108_> JS: And they said the reason WebRTC doesn't say so much about RTT is that the IETF spec covers this.
13:18:20 <jasonjgw> Josh inquires whether the message was that the IETF spec will cover the RTT use cases.
13:19:00 <Joshue108_> JW: I've had a look at this spec.
13:19:21 <Joshue108_> It is a detailed control level spec for how to transfer RTT over the WebRTC data channel.
13:19:59 <Joshue108_> It is some kind of reliable protocol, they are aiming to define the protocol and WebRTC will mint APIs to support it.
13:20:29 <Joshue108_> It does define the direction of text, if it is send only etc.
13:20:54 <Joshue108_> JS: Are you saying the IETF RFC refers to WebRTC in the data channel of the WebRTC spec?
13:21:05 <Joshue108_> JW: Its a divided deliverable.
13:22:04 <Joshue108_> JOC: It doesn't refer to the W3C WebRTC spec.
13:22:31 <Joshue108_> JS: WebRTC gave us the interesting reponse about the IETF doing protocols and we do web APIs.
13:22:52 <Joshue108_> Not suprised, but until IETF finish the protocol how are they write the API?
13:23:18 <Joshue108_> It confims our suspicion that the data channel is sufficient.
13:23:32 <Joshue108_> JW: Consistent with my understanding.
13:24:46 <Joshue108_> We were told ~ that VoiceOver works, we were urged to share our use cases with IETF.
13:24:52 <jasonjgw> Josh wishes to ensure that the different responsibilities are understood and taken into account.
13:25:25 <Joshue108_> JS: The WebRTC data channel may be sufficient but they need to be talked about and validated more.
13:25:28 <Joshue108_> q?
13:25:38 <Joshue108_> The next steps are they we look at this document.
13:26:16 <Joshue108_> ACTION: Josh and Jason to review IETF doc https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-data-channel-02
13:26:16 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2213 - And jason to review ietf doc https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-data-channel-02 [on Joshue O Connor - due 2019-10-02].
13:27:16 <Joshue108_> JS: We've got to look at community groups etc.
13:27:30 <Joshue108_> JW: Lets continue this next week.
13:27:42 <Joshue108_> Anything else on RTC?
13:27:48 <Joshue108_> zakim, agenda?
13:27:48 <Zakim> I see 3 items remaining on the agenda:
13:27:49 <Zakim> 1. Real-time communication accessibility. [from jasonjgw]
13:27:49 <Zakim> 2. XR accessibility. [from jasonjgw]
13:27:49 <Zakim> 3. Miscellaneous updates from TPAC, and Task Force priorities. [from jasonjgw]
13:28:03 <jasonjgw> zakim, next item
13:28:03 <Zakim> agendum 2. "XR accessibility." taken up [from jasonjgw]
13:28:38 <Joshue108_> JS: So unlike RTC that was a one hour meet, we spent ~ 3-4 hours talking about XR.
13:29:08 <Joshue108_> We had enlightening sessions, the intro to 3D on Friday morning by Nell from Amazon was very good.
13:29:39 <Joshue108_> Aims to develop a common vocabulary so we can work together.
13:29:45 <Joshue108_> It is well minuted.
13:30:00 <Joshue108_> https://www.w3.org/2019/09/20-apa-minutes.html#item01
13:30:38 <Joshue108_> JS: There was also the conversation from the day before. But we talked XR on the Thurs sesh, the APA sesh anetc
13:30:50 <Joshue108_> s/anetc/etc
13:31:01 <Joshue108_> JW: Thats helpful Janina, I've read some.
13:31:18 <Joshue108_> Good discussion on rendering, and related AOM discussion and scene graphs.
13:31:26 <Joshue108_> So valuable territory was addressed.
13:31:31 <Joshue108_> q+
13:31:48 <Joshue108_> JW: So what are the central ideas that will help with use cases etc.
13:32:09 <Joshue108_> JS: The AOM converstaions were in the TAG hour, AOM and scene graphs etc.
13:32:27 <Joshue108_> My take away was that, we are not the only ones with concerns to have semantic data coming out of XR.
13:32:46 <Joshue108_> Immersive web and XR people want to get to doing declarative programming and semantics.
13:32:56 <Joshue108_> So I think this is a common goal and I'm heartened by that.
13:33:10 <Joshue108_> It takes the WebGL, WebGPU stuff off the table IMO.
13:33:23 <Joshue108_> glTF seems promising for WebGL.
13:33:56 <Joshue108_> That was confirmed by Nell, Ada and other folks but the main concern is the semantics we need, and matching that with their requirements.
13:34:28 <Joshue108_> SH: Do you think it is more of a technology or terminology issue?
13:34:42 <Joshue108_> Is this from a semantic POV or from just having the conversation.
13:35:12 <Joshue108_> JS: I took away that we were using similar terms but coming at them from diff angles - we need a common vocab.
13:35:37 <Joshue108_> Alice was quite involved - so is our model a tree or more like a scene graph?
13:36:00 <Joshue108_> This distinction is an open question - immersive web are more scene graph oreintated.
13:36:28 <Joshue108_> FOr interative or augmented envs, you dont have time for static DOM/tree, you need it all at once.
13:36:54 <Joshue108_> SH: So how do we get that work into our documents?
13:37:48 <jasonjgw> Josh: affirms Janina's summary.
13:38:39 <jasonjgw> Josh: we should be clear about the generic need for declarative semantics for accessibility and other purposes.
13:38:56 <Judy> q+
13:39:27 <jasonjgw> Josh suggests we need to understand how different components of the stack work, how semantic scene graphs work, and what is needed on the semantic side.
13:39:55 <jasonjgw> He thinks we may need to combine current accessibility tree-oriented approaches with semantic scene graphs.
13:40:26 <jasonjgw> In summary, Josh thinks the various aspects of this landscape need to be better defined an understood for purposes of a dialogue.
13:40:26 <Joshue108_> ack me
13:40:27 <Judy> q+ to discuss timing, and circulation of a backgrounder
13:40:55 <Joshue108_> ack Jud
13:40:55 <Zakim> Judy, you wanted to discuss timing, and circulation of a backgrounder
13:41:44 <Joshue108_> q+
13:43:25 <jasonjgw> Josh considers the notes to be of high quality.
13:43:32 <Joshue108_> https://www.w3.org/2019/09/20-apa-minutes.html#item01
13:43:40 <Joshue108_> ack me
13:44:37 <jasonjgw> Josh is currently capturing the ideas for purposes of understanding the material. These notes can be developed into a primer, once shared with the group.
13:54:45 <Joshue108_> <discussions on attending Inclusive XR workshop>
13:55:19 <Joshue108_> Some of us may make it.
13:55:40 <jasonjgw> zakim, next item
13:55:40 <Zakim> agendum 3. "Miscellaneous updates from TPAC, and Task Force priorities." taken up [from jasonjgw]
13:56:06 <Joshue108_> JW: Part of the intent is to consider what are priorities will be post TPAC.
13:56:16 <Joshue108_> We've done that, and know what we need to do.
13:56:30 <Joshue108_> Are there other TF conversations that should be noted.
13:56:43 <Joshue108_> JB: I've started doing debriefs.
13:57:10 <Joshue108_> JS: Relevant to this, we had a good meet with Authentication people, decentralised identifiers.
13:57:17 <Joshue108_> We asked for CAPTCHA to die.
13:57:30 <Joshue108_> They may be able to kill it. They validated what we have reported.
13:57:36 <Joshue108_> No disagreement.
13:57:42 <Joshue108_> SH: Thats great.
13:58:07 <Joshue108_> JW: Yes indeed. The AGWG are also talking about authentication. etc
13:58:33 <Joshue108_> I've also sent a note to the chairs of AGWG offering help but not had a response.
13:58:49 <Joshue108_> We have things to offer, and I'm not sure if they've read our doc.
13:58:57 <Joshue108_> q+
13:59:14 <Joshue108_> JW: Is there any authenitcation stuff to bring back to the TF?
13:59:17 <Joshue108_> JS: No.
13:59:24 <Joshue108_> ack me
13:59:57 <jasonjgw> Josh: notes discussion of the FAST which clarified the objectives of the document.
14:00:07 <Joshue108_> http://w3c.github.io/apa/fast/checklist
14:01:15 <Judy> [JB: Yes -- FAST is *really* hard to find -- let's fix that!]
14:03:59 <Joshue108_> We need a user needs discovery on FAST for anyone developing accessibility specs, then we need to iterate it.
14:04:58 <jasonjgw> zakim, bye
14:04:58 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been jasonjgw, janina, Joshue108_, scott_h, SteveNoble
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14:05:01 <jasonjgw> rrsagent, make minutes
14:05:01 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/25-rqtf-minutes.html jasonjgw
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