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13:13:19 <trackbot> Meeting: Silver Community Group Teleconference
13:13:19 <trackbot> Date: 24 September 2019
13:13:44 <jeanne> zakim, clear agenda
13:13:44 <Zakim> agenda cleared
13:13:49 <jeanne> present:
13:13:56 <jeanne> present+ jeanne
13:14:06 <jeanne> regrets+ Shawn, Bruce
13:14:35 <jeanne> chair: jeanne
13:14:56 <jeanne> rrsagent, make minutes
13:14:56 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/24-silver-minutes.html jeanne
13:15:27 <jeanne> agenda+ TPAC week meeting review
13:15:27 <jeanne> agenda+ Functional user needs working session
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13:35:16 <Cyborg> Present+
13:35:38 <Rachael> present+
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13:36:18 <Chuck> present+
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13:36:47 <CharlesHall> present+
13:36:59 <KimD> Present+
13:37:07 <jeanne> scribe: jeanne
13:37:08 <Rachael> scribe: Rachael
13:37:12 <jeanne> zakim, take up item 1
13:37:12 <Zakim> agendum 1. "TPAC week meeting review" taken up [from jeanne]
13:37:52 <jeanne> Chuck: We didn't get to all we wanted to.  We addressed some content, but didn't get to tests or techniques
13:37:56 <Rachael> scribe: jeanne
13:38:29 <jeanne> ... we had a robust discussion on Motivate and Reward.
13:39:09 <jeanne> ... strong opinions that were divergent.
13:39:24 <jeanne> ... what does it mean to motivate and what does it mean to reward?
13:39:51 <jeanne> ... what does reward mean, and how could Silver offer rewards to organizations
13:40:31 <CharlesHall> The Guidelines motivate organizations to go beyond minimal accessibility requirements by providing a scoring system that rewards organizations which demonstrate a greater effort to improve accessibility.
13:40:53 <CharlesHall> we need to modify this requirement
13:41:31 <Jan> Jan has joined #silver
13:41:38 <Jan> present+ Jan
13:41:46 <jeanne> Charles: We have to work on the requirement itself in order to write the measurement
13:43:36 <jeanne> LInks to MInutes and summaries <- https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/silver/wiki/2019_September_16-20_in_Fukuoka,_Japan#Minutes
13:46:33 <Cyborg> q+
13:47:21 <Rachael> q+
13:47:34 <Chuck> q+
13:48:06 <Rachael> scribe: Rachael
13:48:28 <Rachael> Cyborg: Impressed with how much was done with the template. I think that part is doable.
13:48:32 <Rachael> q-
13:49:05 <Rachael> ...in terms of the tests and methods, since we haven't had a chance to test out what we are developing. 1.1.1 is doable but color has a different series of challenges.
13:49:27 <Rachael> ...hopefully Chuck can talk to whether we can have color ready by the end of November.
13:50:35 <Rachael> Chuck: I am unfamiliar with this process having not gone through the chartering as a participant of W3C. Is it possible to make a correction? Or is it too arduous? To Cyborg, There is one milestone whihc we haven't hit which is bugging me. I'd like to get more of Andrew's math in the methods before committing to geting Color contrast in there.
13:50:53 <Rachael> ...I think there will be a lot of review and conversation in the group. It may not be the best candidate.
13:51:00 <Rachael> ...because of feedback.
13:51:45 <Rachael> Jeanne: I'd like to clarify that the first public working draft. If you look at the first public working draft of WCAG, it isn't even a page long.  Boilerplate, a few goals, and the title Conformance.
13:52:09 <Rachael> ...strategically it is better to publish something drafty on time than it is to change the date.
13:52:38 <Rachael> ...from my point of view, I'd like to get color contrast in, as much as is done, becuase it takes the existing guidance nad moves it forward.
13:52:40 <Rachael> q+
13:53:05 <Rachael> ...getting Andy's math in is a high priority. Then we get valuable feedback.
13:53:08 <CharlesHall> q+ for a comment on user / functional needs in content migration
13:53:12 <Rachael> Chuck: I speculate there will be much
13:53:21 <Chuck> ack Cy
13:53:23 <Rachael> Jeanne: Some of it may be really good.
13:53:24 <Chuck> ack Ch
13:53:24 <Zakim> CharlesHall, you wanted to discuss a comment on user / functional needs in content migration
13:53:29 <Chuck> ach Chu
13:53:33 <Rachael> ack Chuck
13:53:34 <Chuck> ack Chu
13:54:46 <CharlesHall> People may have [with/without/who can/cannot] [action or function] due to: human factors (like [example of disability]); technical factors (like [example]); or contextual factors (like [example]).
13:54:48 <Rachael> Charles:  How do we handle content migrationg wiht regards to functional needs?
13:55:47 <CharlesHall> sounds like my mic is failing
13:55:54 <CharlesHall> will type
13:56:19 <CharlesHall> there was a lot of hesitation around using the EN functional needs wording
13:56:29 <Rachael> Jeanne: I do like the idea of content migration in regards to functional needs. Maybe what we  put in this draft is just the functional needs and don't try to kill ourselves with the methods
13:56:30 <Cyborg> q+
13:56:49 <CharlesHall> there was also a lot of interest in naming specific disabilities within the human factors parenthetical examples
13:57:17 <CharlesHall> so we need to finalize the editorial format while we continue the migration
13:57:52 <Rachael> Rachael: I like the idea of focusing on functional needs but would like to see a few methods for examples. Can we put something for COGA in to demonstrate how they fit?
13:57:56 <KimD> q+ to ask if we should do 3 - one that is largely the same, one that is color, one that is new?
13:58:11 <Rachael> ack Rachael
13:58:33 <Rachael> Jeanne: Set up a time to discuss.
13:59:04 <Rachael> Cyborg: Few thoughts: That conversation with Rachael and yourself to pull out some functional needs based on an SC, I would like to participate.
13:59:07 <jeanne> Cyborg: 1) pull out functional needs for a COGA sample SC
13:59:31 <jeanne> ... 2) It makes sense to put functional needs in the FPWD
13:59:35 <Rachael> ....Focusing on the functional needs for the first working draft makes sense to me. You mentioned methods but I think we are looking at tests first.
14:00:13 <jeanne> ... 3) Tests: What are the list of potential tests to meet user needs, what are their pros and cons? Do they still allow flexibility of opportunity?
14:01:33 <CharlesHall> note on tests: there are 2 fundamental types: testing the method (implementation); and testing having met the human functional need
14:01:44 <Rachael> Jeanne: I agree. Tests are a part of methods. When I say methods, I include tests. I agree with Rachael that we should have 1 or 2 in at least draft form.
14:02:11 <Chuck> q+
14:02:21 <Cyborg> q+
14:02:57 <jeanne> ack cy
14:02:57 <Rachael> ...it may not be as comprehensive as you and Chuck are proposing but we'd at least have some to show where we are going
14:03:50 <Rachael> KimD: I think at TPAC I heard Michael say if we had 3-4 SC equivilents ready to go that would be enough. We could focus on 1 that is similar, 1 that is familiar but expanded, and 1 that is completely new.
14:04:13 <Rachael> ....that will show an example of each. It can be drafty so that may be helpful to focus down to 3. and maybe an extra.
14:04:15 <Rachael> +1
14:04:25 <CharlesHall> +1 for draftiness
14:04:52 <Rachael> Jeanne: We have heading which Jan and I worked on. Its gone through the earliest version of hte process. We'd need to update the functional needs to where we are currently. It has tests, methods and a guideline.
14:05:28 <Rachael> ...color contrast is in progress and if it could get to 1-2 methods that would be illustrative, especially if 1 method was current and 1 was Andy's.
14:05:37 <Rachael> ...then we could do either COGA or low vision proposal as a new one.
14:05:46 <Cyborg> and 1.1.1 also possible
14:05:54 <Cyborg> (Makoto, Jenn and me)
14:06:01 <Rachael> ...Pause, stop, hide is also in darft form.
14:06:16 <Rachael> Kim: It would be helpful to know what we are aiming to put in first draft.
14:06:30 <Cyborg> what was Bruce Bailey working on again?
14:06:32 <Rachael> Jeanne: That was the universe of what is in progress that is fairly well along.
14:06:59 <Rachael> ...Bruce was working on audio description but didn't get past hte needs. I'm not sure they match up with the way we're doing functional needs now.
14:07:05 <Cyborg> 1.1.1
14:07:06 <Rachael> ..are there any others?
14:07:08 <Jan> I think we should target one COGA and one LV in addition to at least 2 that we are currently working on.
14:07:42 <CharlesHall> again, any of those that are far along are still in need of editorial review for how needs are written
14:07:42 <Cyborg> sorry, i should add that with 1.1.1, we are expanding to look at cognitive needs
14:07:58 <Chuck> q?
14:08:06 <jeanne> ack kim
14:08:06 <Zakim> KimD, you wanted to ask if we should do 3 - one that is largely the same, one that is color, one that is new?
14:08:20 <jeanne> ack chuck
14:08:24 <KimD> ack KimD
14:08:51 <Cyborg> q+
14:09:29 <CharlesHall> +1 to beyond true/false. we need a type of test for the human need in addition to the test for implementation method
14:09:30 <Rachael> Chuck: Cyborg inspired me regarding the tests. My questions are meant to broad but they are going to be color contrast centric. In the case of Andrew's new math, it lends itself to true/false testing. Can we include some tests that are beyond true/false since WCAG's current is true/false to demonstrate what Silver is about?
14:09:50 <Rachael> Jeanne: I wouldn't worry about that for color contrast. I think you're demonstrating a lot of other new things.
14:10:14 <Rachael> ...Language of page has some of the new tests.
14:10:17 <Cyborg> comment on what Jeanne is saying now...
14:11:02 <CharlesHall> i don’t agree with color being simply a math test.
14:11:33 <Rachael> Cyborg: I've had the opportunity to talk with Andy about this concept. Andy was super keen at looking at other test and felt limited by pass/fail. He was immediately liking the idea of scale testing. Can you hold conclusion on that? I don't think that his tests will be true/false so much as he felt he was required to do true/false for 2.x
14:12:17 <Rachael> Jeanne: I was just trying to help you prioritize, not restrict you. If you have a test and you can get it done in 6 weeks, great. But I think we have some simple things that can be done in 6 weeks that could be a higher priority.
14:12:45 <Rachael> ...after we publish, we update every 2 months so if you don't make the 6 weeks, we have regular opportunity to add to what is there.
14:13:05 <Rachael> Cyborg: I think that Andy's is already working this for 2.x and so he can bring it over for the first draft of Silver.
14:13:07 <Rachael> Chuck: Yay
14:13:21 <jeanne> q?
14:13:29 <jeanne> ack Cy
14:14:23 <Jan> I can work on one for Low Vision
14:14:23 <Rachael> Jeanne: Jan made an earlier comment about thinking 2 new ones would be ideal. 1 COGA and 1 Low Vision.  Rachael, Jeanne and Cyborg will work on COGA. Who can work on one for low vision?
14:15:06 <Rachael> Cyborg: In terms of low vision, are we talking about something new or an exisitng criteria that doesn't adequately scope? My impression is that there is a number of current that don't adequately scope.
14:16:12 <Rachael> Jeanne: We asked each of the taskforces to give us 2 proposals that didn't get into WCAG. We have 2 from COGA and 2 from low vision. We need to take what they wrote and translate it into our info archecture, functional needs, and process. That is a fair amount of work.
14:16:26 <Rachael> ...I think we should honor their work by doing the ones they gave us.
14:16:35 <Rachael> ...just for this one.
14:17:21 <Rachael> Cyborg: In 1.1.1 we've been trying to expand to COGA and somewhat low vision.  With color we've been looking at many vision perception issues. What are the 4?
14:18:13 <Rachael> Jeanne: They are in the folder in the google drive. Draft silver content
14:18:31 <jeanne> https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1uU3_rH7hwHm01OM8GTluz4tn0ed1V2Gm
14:20:16 <jeanne> Clear Words -> https://drive.google.com/open?id=1pqh2BYGS_7banTivDvuagU9F6-xfd2QaJc0Q3g1TkxE
14:20:36 <jeanne> Enable APIs -> https://drive.google.com/open?id=1imkVmNUXwzs1ZbfCnuraWOyR8cZ3GaPXFHfAmzRzwwg
14:21:29 <Rachael> Jeanne: Will add Low vision items.
14:21:44 <Rachael> Jan: Clear words will be more difficult.
14:22:45 <Rachael> Jeanne: COGA can guide.
14:22:56 <Rachael> Rachael: I will circle back with Lisa and group.
14:23:42 <Rachael> Jeanne: Lets hold off on picking new ones. We need to do some research. I will send an email to the group with links. Please take time to read and think about them and we can discuss on Friday. What two or three exisiting that we have do we want to focus on?
14:24:03 <Rachael> Cyborg: Options are color, headings, 1.1.1,  Pause stop hide, and Language in Page
14:24:43 <KimD> +1 to including browsers and others
14:24:55 <Cyborg> and audio description
14:25:42 <Rachael> Jeanne: Browsers and audio description is important to many groups. What others? I would like to include color. Cyborg and Chuck - do you agree to put in whatever you have done?
14:25:43 <KimD> +1 to color because it's great to have a more comprehensive approach
14:26:10 <Rachael> Chuck: I feel better about being able to deliver knowing Andy and Cyborg have been working on it. Lets do it.
14:26:20 <Rachael> Jeanne: I think this shows well what Silver can do
14:26:41 <Rachael> ...any thoughts on another one? I think we should do one more. Language of page is so simple people won't take it seriously.
14:27:03 <Rachael> Cyborg: What was the ones we were looking at when we were talking earlier? Timing was one of them. Headers?
14:27:05 <Cyborg> timing?
14:27:12 <Rachael> Jeanne: Timing.
14:27:25 <Rachael> Cyborg: There was another one. What was it?
14:28:33 <Cyborg> sensory characteristics
14:28:35 <Rachael> ...what about name, role, value?
14:28:36 <Cyborg> name, role, value
14:28:40 <Rachael> Jeanne: That is a really hard one.
14:28:46 <Rachael> ...I think that will just be a method
14:29:14 <Rachael> ...is that one you worked on last week?
14:29:20 <Cyborg> and any other come out of conversation with Shawn re: migration?
14:29:46 <Rachael> ...that came from original prototyping.
14:30:05 <Rachael> Jeanne: That was an example of a really hard one. We've since decided that it will be a method.
14:30:23 <Rachael> Cyborg: Are there any others that came out of the Shawn conversation as being a priority?
14:30:36 <Rachael> Chuck: I don't remember any others that would be a good candidate.
14:31:22 <Rachael> Jeanne: Lets look at the functional needs that are done and see if there are any there that would be better candidates.
14:31:40 <jeanne> rrsagent, make minutes
14:31:40 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/24-silver-minutes.html jeanne
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