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17:51:18 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2019/09/24-aria-apg-irc
17:51:20 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
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17:51:22 <trackbot> Meeting: Accessible Rich Internet Applications Working Group Teleconference
17:51:22 <trackbot> Date: 24 September 2019
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18:01:17 <Matt_King> rrsagent, make log public
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18:01:45 <Jemma_> rrsagent, make minutes
18:01:45 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/24-aria-apg-minutes.html Jemma_
18:01:47 <Matt_King> MEETING: September 24, 2019 Authoring Practices Taskforce Meeting
18:01:57 <Matt_King> CHAIR: Matt King
18:02:04 <Matt_King> present+
18:02:04 <jongund> present+jongund
18:02:08 <jongund> present+ jongund
18:02:09 <Matt_King> rrsagent, make minutes
18:02:09 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/24-aria-apg-minutes.html Matt_King
18:02:11 <MarkMccarthy> present+
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18:04:15 <evan> evan has joined #aria-apg
18:04:16 <jamesn> Meeting: September 24, 2019 Authoring Practices Taskforce Meeting
18:04:26 <jamesn> rrsagent, make minutes
18:04:26 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/24-aria-apg-minutes.html jamesn
18:05:04 <Matt_King> Agenda: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/wiki/September-24%2C-2019-Meeting
18:05:18 <carmacleod> scribe: carmacleod
18:05:30 <carmacleod> agenda?
18:06:47 <Jemma_> present+ Jemma
18:06:57 <ZoeBijl> present+
18:06:58 <CurtBellew> present +
18:06:59 <Jemma_> zakim, who is here?
18:06:59 <Zakim> Present: Matt_King, jongund, MarkMccarthy, Jemma, ZoeBijl
18:07:01 <Zakim> On IRC I see evan, CurtBellew, Sarah_Higley, siri, jongund, Matt_King, Dorothy, MarkMccarthy, carmacleod, Zakim, RRSAgent, Jemma_, MichaelC, github-bot, yatil, jamesn, ZoeBijl,
18:07:01 <Zakim> ... trackbot
18:07:08 <evan> present+
18:07:20 <carmacleod> present+
18:07:36 <carmacleod> TOPIC: Third Working Draft Milestone Review
18:07:58 <Sarah_Higley> present+
18:08:12 <jamesn> s/Meeting: Accessible Rich Internet Applications Working Group Teleconference/Meeting: September 24, 2019 Authoring Practices Taskforce Meeting/
18:08:15 <Jemma_> https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/milestone/10
18:08:21 <jamesn> rrsagent, make minutes
18:08:21 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/24-aria-apg-minutes.html jamesn
18:08:31 <carmacleod> mck: as of right now, it looks like we are only at 50%, but that will change in the next few hours
18:10:19 <carmacleod> Regarding https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/727 - don't link directly  into spec for now
18:11:31 <carmacleod> mck: meter pattern, colindextext, rowindextext should have something to review next week
18:11:56 <carmacleod> TOPIC: TPAC review, including long term strategy and priorities
18:12:11 <carmacleod> mck: one part of TPAC agenda to review
18:12:33 <carmacleod> mck: long-term goals related to APG
18:13:23 <carmacleod> mck: first goal has always been to get full coverage of aria spec so that folks can get guidance
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18:13:47 <Jemma_> 1. Full coverage of ARIA spec
18:13:47 <Jemma_> 2. Integration of assistive technology support tables
18:13:47 <Jemma_> 3. Code quality and readability
18:13:47 <Jemma_> 4. APG Usability
18:13:47 <Jemma_> 5. Integration with other W3C accessibility educational resources
18:13:53 <carmacleod> mck: add info about which examples can be used "right now"
18:14:12 <carmacleod> mck: on track to deliver AT support tables next year
18:14:41 <carmacleod> mck: quality of code, i.e. contrast issues, etc
18:15:12 <carmacleod> mck: goal that by the end of next year that we have done an end to end audit
18:16:05 <carmacleod> mck: longer term: usability of the apg itself, convert APG from a monolithic note into a web site.
18:16:19 <carmacleod> mck: like WAI-ARIA Tutorials
18:17:30 <carmacleod> mck: every time we publish, new versions of examples are created, old ones live forever
18:18:10 <carmacleod> mck: need more educational/explanatory resources, all under one umbrella
18:19:05 <carmacleod> mck: would need support from other groups, might need joint task force to make it happen
18:19:47 <carmacleod> jon: what happened with combo box?
18:20:08 <carmacleod> mck: microsoft isn't willing to go along with proposal, so more discussion is necessary
18:21:05 <carmacleod> mck: nvda made fixes to support 1.1 model, so if we can get 1.1 pattern to work in AT, may be better not to introduce another new pattern
18:21:26 <Jemma_> http://a11y.pro/combobox-TPAC2019/
18:21:27 <carmacleod> mck: not sure all problems can be solved robustly with 1.1
18:21:40 <Jemma_> I copied Matt's presentation
18:21:58 <Jemma_> s/copied/copied the url of
18:23:10 <carmacleod> zoe: regarding code readability, I am drafting guidance in issue 1180 - please add comments
18:24:15 <Jemma_> https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/1180
18:25:09 <carmacleod> evan: I can do a PR for modernizing using build
18:26:17 <carmacleod> sarah: I can help with build processes so that we can use more ES6 code, etc, and update examples
18:27:09 <carmacleod> mck: how would this look for users?
18:27:36 <carmacleod> zoe: we would still link to our js files to show the javascript
18:29:14 <jamesn> q+
18:29:28 <carmacleod> evan: can separate the type of code we require authors to write from the deployed code
18:30:31 <carmacleod> james: debugging through code would not look the same as source code
18:30:39 <carmacleod> sarah: can use source maps
18:31:30 <jamesn> ack me
18:31:33 <carmacleod> jon: need to be careful that the code that you are seeing is not the code that is executing in the browser
18:31:53 <carmacleod> s/that/because
18:33:13 <carmacleod> mck: how much longer will we care about IE11
18:33:37 <Jemma_> q?
18:34:08 <carmacleod> mck: people might still be required to produce stuff that works in IE11, and possibly not our job to show them how to support it
18:34:33 <carmacleod> zoe: that boils down to "how many people use AT that only supports IE11"
18:34:51 <carmacleod> mck: I am not aware of any AT that only supports IE11
18:35:20 <Jemma_> https://webaim.org/projects/screenreadersurvey7/#browsers
18:35:30 <Jemma_> https://webaim.org/projects/screenreadersurvey7/#browsercombos
18:36:15 <Jemma_> the data is from Oct, 2017
18:36:25 <carmacleod> mck: we have said that our scope is modern and popular browsers, and we have historically included IE11
18:36:35 <MarkMccarthy> Maybe once the new WebAIM survey comes out we can get a little bit of a clearer picture, understanding its scope is limited
18:38:06 <carmacleod> sarah: many microsoft products no longer support IE
18:39:08 <carmacleod> mck: I would like to move on, but we will bring this up again at the beginning of the year, and we may decide to drop support for IE11 then
18:39:20 <carmacleod> mck: Next issue: spinbutton in Safari
18:39:41 <carmacleod> github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/1154
18:39:59 <carmacleod> mck: works with month and day, but not year?
18:40:16 <carmacleod> mck: is this a bug in the example, or a safari bug?
18:41:27 <carmacleod> jon: spinbutton doesn't work in vo
18:42:45 <carmacleod> mck: MacOS safari does work with VO - it just doesn't work with VO commands
18:45:07 <carmacleod> jon: could use aria-valuetext instead of aria-valuenow
18:45:25 <carmacleod> mck: need to report VO bug
18:45:36 <carmacleod> jon: I can look into this
18:45:57 <carmacleod> TOPIC: open examples in CodePen
18:46:21 <carmacleod> mck: need someone to do some css, then Jesse Beach will add to all of the examples
18:46:57 <carmacleod> github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/1110
18:47:54 <carmacleod> zoe: I will make the button pretty
18:48:35 <carmacleod> TOPIC: Issue 1150 - support warning
18:49:09 <MarkMccarthy> This widget may have support gaps that can only be filled by the development of new technologies. Authors should fully test this widget before using it for a production ready project. Likewise, it may be poorly supported by certain browsers or assistive technologies.
18:49:13 <carmacleod> github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/1150
18:49:55 <carmacleod> mark: wrote it so it can be generically used
18:51:06 <carmacleod> mck: if it is so general that it doesn't give any idea about what the gaps are, then users won't know if it affects them
18:52:11 <carmacleod> mck: should we scope this warning to just be mobile, touch screen, or similar?
18:52:47 <carmacleod> mark: open to making that change if others agree
18:53:11 <carmacleod> mck: ... assistive technologies offered via touch interaction ... ?
18:53:56 <carmacleod> mck: do we want to use the word "widget" or "pattern" here? Or "widgets implemented using this pattern"?
18:54:22 <carmacleod> mck: might depend on context (i.e. does it appear of pattern page or example page)
18:55:20 <carmacleod> mck: do we need the "Likewise" part?
18:55:21 <Jemma_> "This widget may have support gaps that can only be filled by the development of new technologies. Authors should fully test this widget before using it for a production ready project. Likewise, it may be poorly supported by certain browsers or assistive technologies."
18:56:15 <Jemma_> +1 for Matt's comments on the first sentence
18:56:49 <carmacleod> mck: maybe first sentence and last sentence are redundant?
18:56:53 <Jemma_> other than this looks great, Mark
18:57:08 <carmacleod> mck: which examples need this, other than slider?
18:57:18 <Jemma_> s/than this/than that, this
18:57:56 <carmacleod> mck: add it to slider first, then duplicate as needed
18:59:00 <MarkMccarthy> Thanks Jemma
18:59:10 <carmacleod> mck: new technologies like AOM
19:00:19 <carmacleod> jemma: "new technologies" sounds vague - maybe we need to specifically include AOM?
19:01:47 <carmacleod> mck: don't want a dependency on AOM in wording
19:02:10 <Matt_King> rrsagent, make minutes
19:02:10 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/24-aria-apg-minutes.html Matt_King
19:02:42 <carmacleod> zakim, who is on the call?
19:02:42 <Zakim> Present: Matt_King, jongund, MarkMccarthy, Jemma, ZoeBijl, evan, carmacleod, Sarah_Higley
19:03:16 <Jemma_> present+ curtbellew
19:03:22 <carmacleod> present+ jamesn
19:04:05 <carmacleod> present+ CurtBellew
19:04:27 <carmacleod> zakim, bye
19:04:27 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aria-apg
19:04:28 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been Matt_King, jongund, MarkMccarthy, Jemma, ZoeBijl, evan, carmacleod, Sarah_Higley, curtbellew, jamesn
19:04:36 <carmacleod> rrsagent, make minutes
19:04:36 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/24-aria-apg-minutes.html carmacleod
19:05:56 <carmacleod> you're welcome jemma!
19:06:04 <carmacleod> bye for now
19:06:18 <Jemma_> bye
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