IRC log of chinese-web on 2019-09-20
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 04:24:57 [RRSAgent]
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- 04:24:57 [RRSAgent]
- logging to https://www.w3.org/2019/09/20-chinese-web-irc
- 04:25:04 [angel]
- Meeting: Chinese IG Meeting
- 04:25:17 [angel]
- Chair: Qingqian, Zhiqiang, Angel
- 04:25:42 [angel]
- Present+ Angel, Anqing, LiLin, Zhiqiang, Qingqian, Xueyuan, Fuqiao
- 04:27:59 [Roy_]
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- 04:28:32 [wanming]
- wanming has joined #chinese-web
- 04:29:59 [yigu]
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- 04:30:04 [QingAn]
- QingAn has joined #chinese-web
- 04:30:19 [Chunming]
- Chunming has joined #chinese-web
- 04:30:56 [xiaoqian]
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- 04:33:26 [xfq]
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- 04:34:37 [Chunming_]
- Chunming_ has joined #chinese-web
- 04:35:21 [Chunming_]
- rrsagent, draft minutes
- 04:35:21 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/20-chinese-web-minutes.html Chunming_
- 04:35:24 [lizheming]
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- 04:35:36 [angel]
- zakim, who is here?
- 04:35:36 [Zakim]
- Present: Angel, Anqing, LiLin, Zhiqiang, Qingqian, Xueyuan, Fuqiao
- 04:35:38 [Zakim]
- On IRC I see lizheming, Chunming_, xfq, xiaoqian, Chunming, QingAn, yigu, wanming, Roy_, RRSAgent, jserv--, Zakim, angel, Zhiqiang, lilin
- 04:35:55 [Chunming_]
- scribenick:Chunming_
- 04:36:34 [Chunming_]
- https://github.com/w3c/chinese-ig/issues/154
- 04:36:39 [huangzhihao]
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- 04:36:50 [angel]
- Topic: Danmaku
- 04:36:53 [xfq]
- Topic: Bullet Chatting Proposal
- 04:36:58 [xfq]
- https://w3c.github.io/danmaku/index_en.html
- 04:38:23 [Chunming_]
- Song: [TTML与弹幕的区别]
- 04:38:26 [xueyuan]
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- 04:38:57 [Bert]
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- 04:39:45 [Chunming_]
- ... 1. 从定义上，字幕(subtitle/caption)是一个时间，人物说的台词和画面解释
- 04:40:21 [yigu]
- link to "TTML与弹幕的区别"?
- 04:40:43 [Chunming_]
- ... 弹幕是用户发表意见和分享观点，是用户在参与内容过程中实时产生的，并没有一个事先存在的文件来保存它们
- 04:41:09 [xfq]
- Differences between TTML and subtitles/captions -> https://docs.qq.com/doc/DUmRaamhZZHBxRkpY
- 04:41:11 [NJ__]
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- 04:42:01 [yigu]
- Thanks!
- 04:42:03 [Chunming_]
- ... 2. 从表现形式(presentation)上，字幕是一行或多行内容，一般显示在固定位置
- 04:43:05 [Chunming_]
- ... 弹幕在整个区域现实，数量上比字幕大很多，并支持一些交互（例如鼠标控制弹幕停止或继续，以及对某一个弹幕消息的回复）
- 04:43:12 [huangzhihao]
- 弹幕除了文字以外还支持emoji、图片、超链等扩展
- 04:44:29 [xfq]
- nigel: WebVTT currently doesn't let text to overlap, but TTML allows it
- 04:44:29 [xfq]
- ... it is not a technical limit, it's just an editorial choice, the subtitles/captions authors choose not to overlap them
- 04:45:32 [Chunming_]
- Song: 不是技术上的限制。
- 04:46:22 [Guest19]
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- 04:47:15 [Chunming_]
- Song: 3. TTML 关注字幕内容格式，弹幕希望提出一个技术实现方式（API，或规范video元素，而不是规范video元素所引用的视频文件格式）
- 04:48:14 [yj]
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- 04:50:35 [Qingqian_]
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- 04:50:46 [Larry_Zhao]
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- 04:51:33 [Chunming_]
- atai: 从目前情况看，你们已经实现了弹幕，现有规范和需求实现之间的差距在哪里？什么需要被实现在新的 弹幕API中？
- 04:51:42 [ericc]
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- 04:52:53 [Chunming_]
- Song: 现有大量中国和日本的公司都提供弹幕的功能，每个公司都有自己不同的解决方案，这是一个共性需求，但缺少标准简单的实现方案
- 04:53:04 [Larry_Zhao]
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- 04:54:08 [Chunming_]
- ... 我们并不打算标准化整个框架，但一些共性的点（例如避免多个弹幕消息的重叠和碰撞）应当考虑在这个标准方式中
- 04:56:17 [Chunming_]
- Glen: 你也可以定义javascript库和数据格式，所以开发者可以告诉浏览器如何呈现这些内容。你们考虑这种方法？
- 04:56:58 [Chunming_]
- Song: 没有。但有些公司这样实现。
- 04:58:09 [Chunming_]
- Glen: 做JS库可以是一个开始来获得不同实现厂商的共识，在JS库可以定义一些标准的弹幕消息格式
- 05:00:09 [Chunming_]
- Song: (continue) 回答“标准化需求”的问题，我们希望着重考虑 HTML 元素来扩展支持弹幕的呈现方式
- 05:00:29 [Chunming_]
- nigel: @@2
- 05:01:16 [Chunming_]
- Glen: 有TTML和VTT，有需求来自弹幕，我们也会考虑这些新的显示需求
- 05:01:54 [Chunming_]
- ... 很希望了解TTML和VTT支持弹幕的具体技术需求，找到新的技术特性，来拓展TTML和VTT的呈现
- 05:02:00 [Chunming_]
- nigel: 是的。
- 05:03:48 [Chunming_]
- Lilin: 很难用现有的技术实现弹幕，现有使用CSS/DOM，如果能够定义API，可以更简便地将弹幕功能实现处理
- 05:04:21 [Chunming_]
- ... 支持动画、字体、样式
- 05:05:48 [Chunming_]
- atar: 我感觉你们已经有技术方案去实现，只是希望实现这些技术方案的互操作
- 05:06:00 [lilin]
- 目前对于没有专门元素的时候，大部分的时候都是基于CSS3 + DOM + Javascript来实现。但是当前开发者实现弹幕比较麻烦，需要计算弹幕的位置，考虑弹幕与视频的同步，弹幕的速度与动画，以及不同字号的弹幕文字要避免碰撞。所以如果能标准化一个专门来实现弹幕的元素或者其他方式将很有用。
- 05:06:20 [lilin]
- from developper of bullet chatting
- 05:08:54 [lilin]
- https://w3c.github.io/danmaku/
- 05:09:31 [Chunming_]
- Song: (next question) 弹幕是否需要类似TTML、WebVTT这样的文本格式，这个API是要解决布局问题？同步问题？客户端-服务器的API问题？
- 05:10:23 [Chunming_]
- ... 我们认为，如果用API，这些可以不标准化；但如果是HTML元素去表达这些，就需要标准化（包括位置、布局、弹幕显示时间、内容样式等）
- 05:10:39 [naomi]
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- 05:12:17 [Chunming_]
- nigel: 当发出弹幕时，客户端只发送内容，还是要发送内容以外的很多控制选项？
- 05:14:08 [Chunming_]
- Michael_Li: 由于渲染是在客户端做的，服务器端只需要发送有限的信息，时间和内容，具体显示在客户端控制
- 05:14:19 [shanhuaqi]
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- 05:14:47 [nigel]
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- 05:14:58 [Chunming_]
- Song: (last question) 是否能够在TTML WebVTT基础上通过扩展来支持弹幕？
- 05:15:00 [nigel]
- rrsagent, pointer
- 05:15:00 [RRSAgent]
- See https://www.w3.org/2019/09/20-chinese-web-irc#T05-15-00
- 05:15:37 [nigel]
- rrsagent, make logs public
- 05:16:00 [Chunming_]
- ... 我们认为，TTML侧重格式；弹幕的动态性（内容动态生成）。例如niconico 和 bilibili 都使用弹幕在直播场景
- 05:16:24 [Chunming_]
- ... 在这种情况下，弹幕需要实时的记录用户评论的内容
- 05:18:17 [Chunming_]
- ... 对于点播模式，仍然有清晰的时间线概念，弹幕的实现需要将用户发出弹幕的时间记录下来，并共享给其他用户（当其他用户播放到指定时间时）
- 05:19:53 [Chunming_]
- Michael Li: （Demo）
- 05:20:06 [hax]
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- 05:20:43 [Chunming_]
- ... 弹幕的滚动显示，用户可以在comment里面增加一些artwork