IRC log of Chinese-Web-en on 2019-09-20
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 04:32:43 [RRSAgent]
- RRSAgent has joined #Chinese-Web-en
- 04:32:43 [RRSAgent]
- logging to https://www.w3.org/2019/09/20-Chinese-Web-en-irc
- 04:33:02 [nigel]
- Meeting: Joint Chinese IG and TTWG meeting
- 04:33:10 [nigel]
- Log: https://www.w3.org/2019/09/20-Chinese-Web-en-irc
- 04:33:24 [Zakim]
- Zakim has joined #Chinese-Web-en
- 04:34:37 [Chunming_]
- Chunming_ has joined #chinese-web-en
- 04:34:52 [Michael_Li]
- Michael_Li has joined #chinese-web-en
- 04:35:46 [Qingqian]
- Qingqian has joined #Chinese-web-en
- 04:36:06 [QingAn]
- QingAn has joined #chinese-web-en
- 04:36:21 [angel]
- angel has joined #chinese-web-en
- 04:36:41 [xiaoqian]
- zhiqiang: [going through the agenda]
- 04:36:46 [xiaoqian]
- scribe: xiaoqian
- 04:37:05 [xiaoqian]
- topic: Bullet Chatting (joint session with TTWG)
- 04:37:06 [gkatsev]
- gkatsev has joined #chinese-web-en
- 04:37:39 [xiaoqian]
- Song: co-editor of the proposal, another editor is from Bilibili
- 04:37:47 [xiaoqian]
- ... we also invited the experts from Niconico
- 04:38:38 [xueyuan]
- xueyuan has joined #chinese-web-en
- 04:38:45 [xiaoqian]
- ... 1. difference from between subtitle and bulletchatting
- 04:39:28 [xiaoqian]
- ... subtitle is usually coming from words of the actors
- 04:39:40 [xiaoqian]
- ... or description about a certain scene
- 04:40:04 [xiaoqian]
- ... bulletchatting is more about the comment incentive by the content of the video
- 04:40:26 [xiaoqian]
- ... to express the emotion of the audience in real time
- 04:40:42 [xiaoqian]
- ... to share the feeling about the same scene of the video
- 04:41:14 [xiaoqian]
- ... users can send out the bullet chat at the same time as they watch the video
- 04:41:37 [xiaoqian]
- ... subtitle is usually displayed in 1-3 lines
- 04:41:48 [xiaoqian]
- ... the display area is fixed in the video
- 04:42:26 [xiaoqian]
- ... bullet chat can show up in any row of the video area
- 04:42:43 [xiaoqian]
- ... and it's usually moving from one side to another side
- 04:43:22 [xiaoqian]
- nigel: regarding the performance, what's the difference between the two?
- 04:43:39 [xiaoqian]
- ... especially the text overlap
- 04:43:57 [xiaoqian]
- ... it's not technical limit, more editorially
- 04:44:24 [xiaoqian]
- ... the present mode
- 04:44:29 [nigel]
- s/performance/presentation
- 04:44:40 [xfq]
- xfq has joined #chinese-web-en
- 04:44:46 [xiaoqian]
- ... subtitle is usually static
- 04:44:51 [nigel]
- s/... the present mode/Song: the present mode
- 04:45:24 [atai]
- atai has joined #Chinese-Web-en
- 04:45:31 [xiaoqian]
- ... bullet chat can interact with the users
- 04:45:41 [xiaoqian]
- ... more dynamic
- 04:46:04 [xiaoqian]
- ... text direction
- 04:46:27 [xiaoqian]
- ... TTML aims to define a format for subtitle
- 04:46:56 [xiaoqian]
- ... it describe the show-time, the display style, the position and the content
- 04:47:36 [xiaoqian]
- ... while bullet chat, is to help implement bullet chat in the Web
- 04:48:47 [xiaoqian]
- ... we would like to have it as an HTML element, it'd be nice if it can help define the attributes and events about the style, the position, time, and content
- 04:49:50 [xiaoqian]
- xfq: it tries to describe the attributes and events to help implement those use cases that are not covered by TTML
- 04:51:15 [xiaoqian]
- atai: from the current statics, which spec are you targeting when you analysis the gap? the HTML spec?
- 04:51:28 [Bert]
- Bert has joined #chinese-web-en
- 04:51:43 [xiaoqian]
- ... what kind of applications do you think will be the major vendor for this API or element?
- 04:52:09 [xiaoqian]
- Song: not sure yet, need more conversations with the other companies
- 04:52:37 [xiaoqian]
- ... but there are hundreds Webapps companies working on bullet chat in China and Japan
- 04:53:09 [xiaoqian]
- ... with very different implementation
- 04:53:21 [xiaoqian]
- ... we may not be about to cover all the use cases
- 04:53:46 [xiaoqian]
- ... would like to design an API or element which can be extensive
- 04:53:56 [xiaoqian]
- ... f.ex., the AI masking cases
- 04:54:31 [xiaoqian]
- atai: whether HTML element is necessary may be a different question
- 04:54:35 [xiaoqian]
- Song: agree
- 04:54:52 [xiaoqian]
- Glen: so it can also be a JS library
- 04:55:09 [xiaoqian]
- ... a lib including the queue objects
- 04:55:18 [xiaoqian]
- ... have you considered that option?
- 04:55:47 [xiaoqian]
- Song: some of the companies may be implementing with JS lib
- 04:56:32 [xiaoqian]
- ... but it must be with some limits so they are asking for an extra standardised API
- 04:57:19 [xiaoqian]
- Glen: A JS lib can be a good starting point if it gets consensus from the other players
- 04:58:21 [xiaoqian]
- Song: our co editor and my engineers team really hope to standardise the bullet chat
- 04:58:48 [xiaoqian]
- ... but from the discussion this week, we also see the potential to reuse the current technologies
- 05:00:12 [xiaoqian]
- Song: we would like to have an element which describes the control for show area, time, delay, styling
- 05:00:52 [xiaoqian]
- @@: if I understand correctly, there is also requirements that are not covered by the VTT and TTML
- 05:01:15 [xiaoqian]
- Nigel: animation?
- 05:01:33 [gkatsev]
- s/@@/Eric_Carlson/
- 05:01:44 [xiaoqian]
- Glen: we have animation, but we would love to hear more requirements for bullet chat
- 05:01:57 [xiaoqian]
- ... if both solution are too heavy way
- 05:02:17 [xiaoqian]
- ... you can consider a light way of implementation
- 05:02:51 [xiaoqian]
- Lin: current limitation is more on performance as they are using CSS and JS
- 05:03:12 [xiaoqian]
- ... so they would like to have an API to ease the implementation
- 05:03:39 [xiaoqian]
- ... requirements including animation, speed control, font-style
- 05:03:49 [xiaoqian]
- ... it's more about how to make things easier
- 05:04:07 [xiaoqian]
- atai: thank you for the introduction over the week
- 05:04:26 [xiaoqian]
- ... it seems you already have the technology to solve the problem
- 05:04:42 [xiaoqian]
- ... what you want now is introperability
- 05:05:05 [xiaoqian]
- ... if your application is trying to solve the same problem as VTT and TTML?
- 05:05:58 [xiaoqian]
- ... it will be successful to bring the an new format if it can help the implementation easier
- 05:06:15 [xiaoqian]
- Glen: it will be helpful to show some demo
- 05:07:18 [xiaoqian]
- Song: the problem now is I don't think any developers is using the VTT and TTML to implement it
- 05:09:02 [xiaoqian]
- ... next question is about the layout to display the text
- 05:09:48 [xiaoqian]
- ... our point of view is how to display the bullet chat with markup
- 05:10:17 [xiaoqian]
- ... what is really needed is the element to represent the bullet chat
- 05:11:16 [xiaoqian]
- nigel: when you send the bullet chat, do you send everything to the client? or just the content?
- 05:12:24 [xiaoqian]
- xfq: I think there is lots of possibilities in the implementation from different companies
- 05:12:57 [xiaoqian]
- Michael_Li: the rendering calculation is done in the client side
- 05:13:17 [xiaoqian]
- ... so we need to send all the necessary things
- 05:13:33 [xiaoqian]
- ... but we also see potential to improve this implementation
- 05:14:30 [xiaoqian]
- nigel: that seems to be an important things to agree on
- 05:15:18 [nigel]
- rrsagent, make logs public
- 05:15:24 [nigel]
- rrsagent, pointer
- 05:15:24 [RRSAgent]
- See https://www.w3.org/2019/09/20-Chinese-Web-en-irc#T05-15-24
- 05:15:49 [xiaoqian]
- Song: bilibili also mentioned the key to extent the bullet chat on top of any existing technologies is live transportation
- 05:16:10 [xiaoqian]
- ... as one of the important use case is live streaming or live events
- 05:16:17 [nigel]
- rrsagent, make minutes
- 05:16:17 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/20-Chinese-Web-en-minutes.html nigel
- 05:16:27 [xiaoqian]
- ... so we need to log the elements in real time
- 05:17:20 [xiaoqian]
- ... for the on-demand playback, if User A is watching at 10', and User is watching at 5', both of them can send a comment at the same time
- 05:17:53 [xiaoqian]
- ... the system needs to accept the comment and generate the bullet chat in real time
- 05:18:08 [xiaoqian]
- ... so when User B arrives at 10'
- 05:18:22 [xiaoqian]
- ... he can see User A's comment for 10'
- 05:19:10 [xiaoqian]
- [demos from Niconico]
- 05:19:57 [xiaoqian]
- RRSAgent, make minutes
- 05:19:57 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/20-Chinese-Web-en-minutes.html xiaoqian
- 05:20:22 [xiaoqian]
- Michael_Li: demo about the scrolling of content
- 05:20:44 [xiaoqian]
- ... users can play art works with bullet chat
- 05:21:06 [xiaoqian]
- ... the styling can but sync with the music
- 05:21:29 [xiaoqian]
- ... if I slow down the play speeds, the comments also slow down
- 05:22:17 [xiaoqian]
- ... you can also do crazy things with unicode letters
- 05:22:53 [xiaoqian]
- Eric_Carlson: so you may still need JS to do this kind of effect even you have a file format
- 05:24:03 [nigel]
- -> https://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm31436903 niconico example
- 05:24:05 [xfq]
- description by niconico: https://rentry.co/bgc5h
- 05:24:26 [xiaoqian]
- Michael_Li: we would be happy to accept what can be standardised if it's helpful
- 05:24:38 [xiaoqian]
- ... not necessary to cover all the use cases
- 05:25:05 [xiaoqian]
- Eric_Carlson: so you would like to standardise something that can reduce the JS work
- 05:25:51 [xiaoqian]
- ... f.ex., we want to standardised in our work whether it's playing or not, the current time of the element
- 05:25:52 [naomi]
- naomi has joined #Chinese-Web-en
- 05:26:25 [xiaoqian]
- nigel & plh: it can also be helpful for a11y
- 05:26:55 [naomi]
- RRSAgent, make minutes
- 05:26:55 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/20-Chinese-Web-en-minutes.html naomi
- 05:26:56 [hax]
- hax has joined #chinese-web-en
- 05:27:13 [naomi]
- present+ suzuki, koizuka, Michael_Li
- 05:27:29 [xiaoqian]
- nigel: I haven't get a clear idea where the work should happen
- 05:27:57 [xiaoqian]
- xfq: it would be helpful to create a communicate channel
- 05:28:40 [xiaoqian]
- [another demo about the champion cup of world game]
- 05:28:54 [xiaoqian]
- song: there can be different layout of the texts
- 05:29:22 [nigel]
- -> https://www.bilibili.com/video/av35199206/?p=3 Bilibili example
- 05:29:50 [xfq]
- zhiqiang: maybe we need to set up a regular communication channel to discuss more details in the future
- 05:30:09 [xfq]
- xiaoqian: we can create a CG
- 05:30:24 [nigel]
- rrsagent, make minutes
- 05:30:24 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/20-Chinese-Web-en-minutes.html nigel
- 05:30:41 [xfq]
- ... invite Chinese IG editors, Japanese companies, timed text people in W3C etc.
- 05:31:50 [chaals]
- chaals has joined #chinese-web-en
- 05:35:19 [nigel]
- nigel has joined #Chinese-Web-en
- 05:35:59 [nigel]
- rrsagent, make minutes
- 05:35:59 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/20-Chinese-Web-en-minutes.html nigel
- 05:42:43 [xiaoqian]
- Bobby: I'm Bobby Tung, from TW, i18n invited expert, working on CLReq
- 05:43:07 [xiaoqian]
- ... our last Chinese discussion was 6 yrs ago
- 05:43:39 [xiaoqian]
- ... CSS Writing Mode
- 05:43:58 [xiaoqian]
- ... moves to CR in this TPAC meeting
- 05:44:08 [xiaoqian]
- ... L3
- 05:44:46 [xiaoqian]
- ... it started from 2010
- 05:45:03 [xiaoqian]
- ... it's very important to CJK and mongolian
- 05:45:55 [xiaoqian]
- ... it will be a great help to Japanese, Mongolian, and old books
- 05:46:13 [xiaoqian]
- ... [stories about the editors and the spec]
- 05:47:12 [xiaoqian]
- ... actually, it comes from the JLReq
- 05:47:33 [xiaoqian]
- ... JLReq started from 2007
- 05:47:55 [xiaoqian]
- ... Richard contributed a lot the work
- 05:48:08 [xiaoqian]
- ... back to 1984-1985
- 05:48:16 [chaals]
- chaals has joined #chinese-web-en
- 05:48:45 [chaals]
- present+ chaals
- 05:48:52 [xiaoqian]
- ... Mac-Aides Pagination-Adobe, want to explore the market in Japan
- 05:49:12 [Bert]
- Bert has left #Chinese-Web-en
- 05:49:25 [xiaoqian]
- ... the engineers needed help from the publishers on typewriting
- 05:49:29 [Qingqian_]
- Qingqian_ has joined #chinese-web-en
- 05:49:45 [naomi]
- naomi has joined #Chinese-Web-en
- 05:49:55 [xiaoqian]
- ... JIS X from 1993
- 05:50:38 [xiaoqian]
- ... so they invited experts from the industry to work on a very detail document for typewritting
- 05:51:05 [xiaoqian]
- ... to properly display the Japanese language
- 05:51:30 [xiaoqian]
- ... they started from writing mode, Ruby...
- 05:51:30 [QingAn]
- QingAn has joined #chinese-web-en
- 05:51:39 [xiaoqian]
- xfq: Ruby started from 1998
- 05:52:07 [xiaoqian]
- Bobby: 1998, XML was the popular language
- 05:52:33 [xiaoqian]
- ... librarian wanted to storage the books digitally
- 05:53:12 [xiaoqian]
- ... when it came the HTML5 and CSS3
- 05:53:45 [xiaoqian]
- ... in 2014, W3C published the HTML5.0 REC
- 05:54:11 [xiaoqian]
- ... dpub-er would like to have a format other than kindle
- 05:54:45 [xiaoqian]
- ... publishers have explored lots of possibilities
- 05:55:14 [xiaoqian]
- ... then people agreed on solution with the Web technologies
- 05:55:40 [xiaoqian]
- ... then we have problem, for the full-width and half-width
- 05:56:42 [xiaoqian]
- ... there is some differences in Traditional Chinese and Japanese according to the national standard
- 05:57:06 [chaals]
- rrsagent, draft minutes
- 05:57:06 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/20-Chinese-Web-en-minutes.html chaals
- 05:57:45 [xiaoqian]
- ... then I realised it's a common problem for the W3C i18n IG, unicode C
- 05:58:23 [xiaoqian]
- ... for example, in Japan they changed the name of the year starting from 2019
- 05:59:24 [xiaoqian]
- ... there is not document to record the layout differences between the Japanese, TC and SC
- 05:59:56 [xiaoqian]
- ... so I wrote down an initial draft of CLReq based on the TC requirements
- 06:00:34 [xiaoqian]
- ... we got support from W3C in 2013 to started the CLReq TF
- 06:00:54 [xiaoqian]
- ... it's a document with 3 language version
- 06:01:17 [xiaoqian]
- ... Yijun knows well about SC and TC
- 06:01:37 [xiaoqian]
- ... Eric speaks both Japanese and SC
- 06:01:52 [xiaoqian]
- ... Hiding comes from the Singapore community
- 06:02:23 [xiaoqian]
- ... fuqiao is also pushing for teleconfs
- 06:03:10 [chaals]
- s/Japanese, TC and SC/Japanese, Traditional Chinese and Simplified Chinese
- 06:03:27 [xiaoqian]
- ... one issue is how to avoid hanging punctuation at the beginning of the line
- 06:04:18 [xiaoqian]
- ... modern Traditional Chinese in Taiwan is complicated
- 06:04:55 [xiaoqian]
- ... some punctuations is acceptable as the starting point in Traditional Chinese
- 06:05:29 [xiaoqian]
- ... some experts is keen of the idea to keep every Chinese character in a unique cell
- 06:05:57 [naomi]
- naomi has joined #Chinese-Web-en
- 06:06:08 [xiaoqian]
- ... Traditional Chinese is actually looser than Japanese in some of these details
- 06:06:37 [xiaoqian]
- ... Eric is hosting a Type is beautiful project to identify these kind of features
- 06:06:50 [xiaoqian]
- ... another important topic is Ruby
- 06:07:38 [xiaoqian]
- ... we usually put a tone on the top of the Romanization
- 06:08:12 [xiaoqian]
- ... Xidorn implemented a very unified Ruby in Firefox based on the standard
- 06:08:49 [xiaoqian]
- ... while another engineer in Apple implemented Ruby in a very different system
- 06:09:02 [xiaoqian]
- ... Eric is collecting requirements on Ruby
- 06:09:20 [Guest19]
- Guest19 has joined #chinese-web-en
- 06:09:32 [xiaoqian]
- ... we are also exploring the next step of Ruby
- 06:09:41 [chaals]
- s/JIS X/JIS X-4051:2004
- 06:09:48 [atai]
- -> https://github.com/immersive-web/proposals/issues/55 Issue about 360 video
- 06:09:48 [atai]
- 06:10:03 [xiaoqian]
- ... we hope to collaborate with all of you
- 06:10:29 [xiaoqian]
- Zhiqiang: is there any new requirements in CLReq which is not included in JLRep?
- 06:10:55 [xiaoqian]
- Bobby: no, but if you are going to support just Chinese in your system or application
- 06:11:14 [atai]
- s|-> https://github.com/immersive-web/proposals/issues/55 Issue about 360 video||
- 06:11:30 [xiaoqian]
- ... you can implement a looser layout system
- 06:12:04 [xiaoqian]
- ... also we want to document the requirements for Chinese
- 06:13:06 [xiaoqian]
- Qingqian: anything we can help from the Chinese IG?
- 06:13:40 [xiaoqian]
- Bobby: it'd be nice if you can help complete the data in CanIUse about layouts
- 06:14:54 [xiaoqian]
- ... please also file bugs to Chromium and Webkit if possible
- 06:16:24 [xfq]
- bobby: in the past we can only contact the implementers to feedback on Chinese layout issues
- 06:16:52 [xfq]
- ... japan has been pushing electric textbooks recently
- 06:18:04 [xfq]
- hax: Chinese reader application developers may also provide input
- 06:18:13 [xfq]
- ... like Tencent
- 06:19:21 [xfq]
- ... in narrow screens prohibition rules for line start and line end might be different, for example
- 06:19:30 [xfq]
- ... currently it's only in some products
- 06:19:34 [xfq]
- ... but not in clreq
- 06:21:06 [xiaoqian]
- Topic: MiniApp
- 06:21:30 [xiaoqian]
- qingqian: would like to give an update of the progress
- 06:21:39 [xiaoqian]
- ... explore the possible next step
- 06:22:07 [xiaoqian]
- ... if everyone knows the previous discussions, let's skip this part
- 06:22:42 [xiaoqian]
- ... we, with the other vendors, have been working on a WhitePaper
- 06:22:57 [xiaoqian]
- ... we have received feedback from the Chrome team and the TAG
- 06:23:19 [xiaoqian]
- ... breakout presentations this week
- 06:25:21 [xiaoqian]
- ... the TAG suggested open the content of MiniApp to allow discovery of the search engine and other systems
- 06:25:43 [xiaoqian]
- ... and to collaborate with the other W3C APIs and groups
- 06:26:27 [xiaoqian]
- ... in the AC meeting, Judy presented it again to the AC Reps
- 06:26:48 [xiaoqian]
- ... TAG provided a formal review comments to MiniApp
- 06:27:26 [angel]
- https://www.w3.org/community/miniapps/
- 06:27:34 [xiaoqian]
- Zhiqiang: in the Breakout session, they also suggest us to interoperate with the current APIs, f.ex., the manifest
- 06:28:13 [xiaoqian]
- Qingqian: let's focus on the workable items for the next step
- 06:28:29 [xiaoqian]
- ... for those things we agree to standardise
- 06:28:45 [xiaoqian]
- ... 1. those features needed only by MiniApps
- 06:29:02 [xiaoqian]
- ... we can start incubating the proposals
- 06:29:45 [xiaoqian]
- ... 2. the existing Web APIs, but with different interface in MiniApps
- 06:30:04 [xiaoqian]
- ... we shall submit requirements to W3C
- 06:30:27 [xiaoqian]
- ... one issue maybe the MiniApp vendors will think W3C groups are too slow
- 06:30:54 [xiaoqian]
- Zhiqiang: we can take a subset from the existing APIs, f.ex., Manifest
- 06:30:57 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/20-Chinese-Web-en-minutes.html xfq
- 06:31:17 [xiaoqian]
- Qingqian: we should be open-minded on this
- 06:31:34 [xiaoqian]
- ... as the vendors also need to consider business requirements
- 06:31:57 [xueyuan]
- xueyuan has joined #chinese-web-en
- 06:32:04 [xiaoqian]
- ... I'm proposing everyone to look at the Manifest API
- 06:32:16 [xfq]
- present+ Angel, Anqing, LiLin, Zhiqiang, Qingqian, Xueyuan, Fuqiao, Chunming_, wanming, hax, Bowen, lizheming, yuyin, shouqun, chaals, QingAn
- 06:32:39 [xfq]
- present+ xiaoqian
- 06:32:45 [xiaoqian]
- ... to see if we can use it as a solution of MiniApp
- 06:32:56 [xiaoqian]
- ... another idea is the Web Packaging
- 06:32:57 [xfq]
- present+ Yajun_Chen
- 06:33:15 [xiaoqian]
- Zhiqiang: what do you mean by packaging?
- 06:33:40 [xiaoqian]
- Qingqian: the structure of the files, how to compress it
- 06:33:49 [xfq]
- present+ Eric_Carlson
- 06:34:14 [xiaoqian]
- ... I think the current format isn't very dev-friendly
- 06:34:39 [xfq]
- present+ bobby
- 06:34:53 [xiaoqian]
- Zhiqiang: so we need to define the format and how to export the package
- 06:35:37 [xiaoqian]
- Qingqian: let's also figure out how to collaborate on these APIs
- 06:36:00 [xiaoqian]
- Zhiqiang: Package, Manifest, URI... I think these are important starting points
- 06:36:12 [xiaoqian]
- Qingqian: we need someone to take actions
- 06:36:43 [xiaoqian]
- Zhiqiang: I'm also hoping we can open source the implementations
- 06:37:16 [xiaoqian]
- Qingqian: TAG commented URI is necessary if MiniApp wants to run on the Web
- 06:37:55 [xiaoqian]
- ... as the Web relies on origin
- 06:38:27 [xiaoqian]
- ... can we reach consensus on a few important proposal today?
- 06:39:12 [xiaoqian]
- Hax: most vendors also have it, but it's not open to the developers
- 06:39:31 [xiaoqian]
- Zhiqiang: most of them have a private protocol
- 06:39:40 [naomi]
- naomi has joined #Chinese-Web-en
- 06:40:01 [xiaoqian]
- Qingqian: most of the MiniApps of Baidu works on the browser
- 06:40:34 [xiaoqian]
- ... f.ex., domain is smartapp/
- 06:40:43 [xiaoqian]
- ... but it's not the ideal implementation
- 06:41:11 [xiaoqian]
- ... technically it can be shared to other platform, but with bugs
- 06:41:41 [xiaoqian]
- ... we want to use runtime to convert it to a unified URI
- 06:41:54 [xiaoqian]
- ... so it can discovered by the Web
- 06:42:13 [xiaoqian]
- Zhiqiang: it will be tricky if we want the apps to be validated
- 06:42:54 [xiaoqian]
- Qingqian: we can create a runtime to approve the MiniApps on a white list
- 06:43:24 [xiaoqian]
- Zhiqiang: would like to discuss the detail of URI
- 06:43:44 [xiaoqian]
- ... every vendor requires MiniApps to be validated
- 06:44:37 [xiaoqian]
- Qingqian: 1. we need a URI for each MiniApp; 2. user can only access those MiniApps validated by the vendor
- 06:44:47 [xiaoqian]
- ... this is not conflict
- 06:44:51 [angel]
- rrsagent, draft minutes
- 06:44:51 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/20-Chinese-Web-en-minutes.html angel
- 06:44:59 [angel]
- rrsagent, make log public
- 06:45:07 [xiaoqian]
- Zhiqiang: most users don't usually visit a MiniApp with URI
- 06:45:29 [xiaoqian]
- ... what's the point of having a URI?
- 06:45:40 [xiaoqian]
- chumming: to share a MiniApp?
- 06:45:48 [xiaoqian]
- Zhiqiang: makes sense
- 06:47:09 [xiaoqian]
- ... f.ex., if an application have published a feature for different MiniApp for different platform, it's going to be using the same URI or a different one?
- 06:47:14 [atai]
- atai has left #Chinese-Web-en
- 06:47:41 [xiaoqian]
- hax: same domain name with different URIs?
- 06:48:00 [xiaoqian]
- Qingqian: similar to open a file in the OS
- 06:49:02 [xiaoqian]
- Bowen: will it be possible MiniApp are only kept in a platform?
- 06:49:20 [xiaoqian]
- Qingqian & Zhiqiang: it's not practical
- 06:49:34 [xiaoqian]
- Qingqian: it may be possible with Web Packaging
- 06:50:00 [xiaoqian]
- Zhiqiang: signature is necessary for every MiniApp
- 06:50:35 [xiaoqian]
- Qingqian: signature after a unified URI?
- 06:50:45 [Roy_]
- Roy_ has joined #chinese-web-en
- 06:50:55 [xiaoqian]
- ... who will be rule maker for the signature?
- 06:51:03 [xiaoqian]
- ... now it's decided by the platform
- 06:51:27 [xiaoqian]
- hax: it'd be nice to have a unified signature
- 06:52:03 [xiaoqian]
- Zhiqiang: so URI is common requirement for us
- 06:52:09 [xiaoqian]
- Qingqian: agree
- 06:53:19 [xiaoqian]
- ... we are willing to lead the effer
- 06:54:51 [xiaoqian]
- action: Qingqian to talk to other vendors to standardise URI of MiniApp
- 06:55:08 [xiaoqian]
- ... next, Manifest
- 06:55:24 [xiaoqian]
- action: Zhiqiang to lead the researching of Minifest
- 06:55:38 [xiaoqian]
- ... next, packaging
- 06:56:07 [xiaoqian]
- action: Alibaba to lead the work on packaging
- 06:56:22 [xiaoqian]
- ... next, widget
- 06:56:46 [xiaoqian]
- action: Xiaomi to explore the standardising work on Widget
- 06:57:07 [xiaoqian]
- ... individual APIs
- 06:57:29 [xiaoqian]
- ... every vendor should submit their own requirements to W3C
- 06:57:57 [xiaoqian]
- action: fuqiao to help coordinate the single API proposals
- 06:58:06 [xfq]
- https://www.w3.org/community/miniapps/
- 06:58:11 [xiaoqian]
- ... Chaals helped us to create a CG
- 06:58:39 [xiaoqian]
- ... shall we have co-chairs for the CG?
- 06:59:04 [xiaoqian]
- [angel explain difference between CG and IG]
- 06:59:45 [xiaoqian]
- angel: CG can help us communicate with a boarder community
- 06:59:56 [chaals]
- s/boarder/broader
- 07:00:44 [naomi]
- naomi has joined #Chinese-Web-en
- 07:00:49 [xiaoqian]
- Zhiqiang: I think another important proposal is lifecycle
- 07:00:50 [xfq]
- present+ yigu
- 07:01:16 [xiaoqian]
- ... it defines the minimal requirements to run a MiniApp
- 07:01:55 [xiaoqian]
- Angel: please incubate all the proposals in the CG first
- 07:02:25 [xiaoqian]
- Zhiqiang: let's figure the minimal features of a MiniApp first
- 07:02:46 [xiaoqian]
- qingqian: agree, and to extend other features in the future
- 07:03:11 [xiaoqian]
- Zhiqiang: correct, packaging, manifest, lifecycle, basic APIs
- 07:03:47 [xiaoqian]
- Anqi: if something is within a scope of an existing WG, lets have the work there
- 07:04:07 [xiaoqian]
- Zhiqiang: can we open-source those minimal features?
- 07:04:17 [xiaoqian]
- Qingqian: +1 from Baidu
- 07:04:51 [xiaoqian]
- QuickApp vendors: we haven't reach the point yet, but will try
- 07:05:59 [xiaoqian]
- qingqian: signature is a sub-feature of packaging, but with a lot of business consideration
- 07:06:23 [xiaoqian]
- ... let's explore the possibilities to standardise it
- 07:07:08 [xiaoqian]
- Juejia: good discussion today!
- 07:07:32 [xiaoqian]
- Angel: work mode of the CG
- 07:07:49 [xiaoqian]
- ... monthly call of the CG
- 07:08:20 [xiaoqian]
- ... each TFs can have its own communication channel
- 07:08:42 [xiaoqian]
- chaals: present your proposal to the WICG once it's ready
- 07:08:56 [xiaoqian]
- ... get broader review from them
- 07:09:33 [chaals]
- [No need for it to be ready, just that you agree to work on something, and then they can give you a repo. Or you can use your own repository e.g. in miniapps CG]
- 07:09:52 [xiaoqian]
- Angel: we shall aimed at a WG to publish the minimal features for patent policy
- 07:11:18 [xiaoqian]
- ... update every 12 months
- 07:11:32 [xiaoqian]
- ... when we have finish the first version of each MiniApp features
- 07:12:07 [xiaoqian]
- Juejia: we would like work with the Web and W3C
- 07:12:37 [xiaoqian]
- ... leader of each TF should keep this in mind
- 07:12:47 [xiaoqian]
- Angel: agree
- 07:14:20 [xiaoqian]
- resolution: Reuse the MiniApp-whitepaper repo, rename to MiniApp
- 07:15:57 [xiaoqian]
- resolution: we should keep using the name MiniApp
- 07:16:55 [xiaoqian]
- chunming: mission of the CG or WG?
- 07:17:42 [xiaoqian]
- ... to have a standardised display or interaction of application on the Native Apps and the Web?
- 07:18:11 [xiaoqian]
- ... clearly document the scope
- 07:18:39 [xiaoqian]
- Angel: MiniApp should be an extension of the Web Apps
- 07:19:44 [xiaoqian]
- Chunming: lets try not to over emphasis the difference of MiniApp to the Web App
- 07:20:58 [xiaoqian]
- Chaals: tell them, you want to standardise Web App in a package
- 07:21:14 [lilin__]
- lilin__ has joined #chinese-web-en
- 07:21:38 [xiaoqian]
- ... MiniApp is a PACKAGE!
- 07:24:54 [xueyuan]
- xueyuan has joined #chinese-web-en
- 07:26:59 [xiaoqian]
- RRSAgent, make minutes
- 07:26:59 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/20-Chinese-Web-en-minutes.html xiaoqian
- 07:32:03 [xiaoqian]
- xiaoqian: next question, shall we publish documents in English or in Chinese?
- 07:32:32 [xiaoqian]
- resolution: Proposals should be published in English
- 07:33:25 [xiaoqian]
- Angel: we also need to create a mailing list
- 07:33:50 [xiaoqian]
- Wanming: APIs needs two independent implementation
- 07:34:17 [xiaoqian]
- ... can we have MiniApp vendors as implementation as well?
- 07:34:31 [gkatsev]
- gkatsev has left #Chinese-Web-en
- 07:35:37 [xiaoqian]
- Qingqian: we only need implementation from 2 MiniApp vendors
- 07:35:46 [xiaoqian]
- others: agree
- 07:36:02 [xiaoqian]
- Xiaoqian: how do you define independent?
- 07:36:15 [xiaoqian]
- Zhiqiang: we are using different render engine
- 07:37:10 [xiaoqian]
- chaals: for implementation, what you need to show, it's to show it's widely accepted
- 07:37:34 [xiaoqian]
- ... if you have a device API, and there is another API in W3C
- 07:37:40 [xiaoqian]
- ... you have to a problem
- 07:37:48 [chaals]
- [we have mailing list public-miniapps@w3.org archived at https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-miniapps/ ]
- 07:37:54 [xiaoqian]
- s/have to a/have a
- 07:38:44 [chaals]
- … because if most of the web is going to use another API for the same thing, then you don't meet the conditions, and need to explain why we should have two different APIs. Eaier to make sure the other API meets your needs, usually
- 07:38:47 [xiaoqian]
- Wanming: we would like to work with the MiniApp community
- 07:39:01 [chaals]
- s/Eaier/Easier
- 07:39:14 [xiaoqian]
- Qingqian: would you consider runtime implementation for MiniApp?
- 07:39:26 [xiaoqian]
- Wanming: as only there is any need for Desktop
- 07:40:08 [xiaoqian]
- Xiaoqian: decision policy?
- 07:40:21 [xiaoqian]
- Angel: we are a small group
- 07:40:53 [xiaoqian]
- ... I proposal major consensus, no formal objections
- 07:41:06 [xiaoqian]
- s/I proposal/I proposed
- 07:41:24 [xiaoqian]
- ... majority = more than 2/3
- 07:43:32 [xiaoqian]
- ... vote from at least 2/3 vendors, and representative from developers
- 07:44:09 [xiaoqian]
- ... number of representative from developers = 1/3 of the number of vendors
- 07:44:12 [xueyuan]
- xueyuan has joined #chinese-web-en
- 07:46:21 [xiaoqian]
- Chunming: I propose we only need consensus from vendors
- 07:49:10 [xiaoqian]
- everyone: no, we need input from the developers
- 07:49:55 [xiaoqian]
- Angel: proposed: 2/3 vendors + reasonable amount of developers
- 07:51:06 [xiaoqian]
- resolution: decide when a proposal is ready to ship to WG - 2/3 vendors + reasonable amount of developers
- 07:51:44 [xiaoqian]
- action: Angel to draft a charter of the CG
- 07:52:48 [xiaoqian]
- Anqing: vendors include browser vendors
- 07:53:19 [xiaoqian]
- angel: we don't need to consider FO because it's just a CG proposal
- 08:02:31 [xiaoqian]
- resolution: 2 co-chairs at the creation of the CG, and we can add chair when we are clear about the tasks
- 08:03:24 [xiaoqian]
- action: Angel will propose a draft charter by 1 Oct and ask for review
- 08:03:54 [xiaoqian]
- resolution: first teleconference in Mid Oct
- 08:04:51 [xiaoqian]
- Angel: timeline for each TF?
- 08:05:00 [xiaoqian]
- Qingqian: too early to decide
- 08:05:13 [xiaoqian]
- chaals: teleconf in English or in Chinese?
- 08:05:27 [xiaoqian]
- Angel: one round in Chinese, one round in English
- 08:05:49 [xiaoqian]
- Qingqian: let's run it for a while and improve as time pass by
- 08:06:01 [chaals]
- +1 to Qingqian
- 08:06:10 [xiaoqian]
- Angel: we spent 3 months on the WhitePaper
- 08:07:04 [xiaoqian]
- resolution: stop working on the WhitePaper, create a FaQ wiki in the repo instead
- 08:07:26 [naomi]
- naomi has joined #Chinese-Web-en
- 08:08:12 [xiaoqian]
- action: Chaals to find the TAG review comments
- 08:13:02 [xueyuan]
- xueyuan has joined #chinese-web-en
- 08:14:17 [xiaoqian]
- https://www.w3.org/community/miniapps/
- 08:14:40 [xiaoqian]
- Join the MiniApps CG! ^^
- 08:14:52 [Roy]
- Roy has joined #chinese-web-en
- 08:14:59 [xfq]
- https://w3c.github.io/mini-app-white-paper/comparison.html
- 08:15:14 [xiaoqian]
- Hax: can we keep updating the comparison document?
- 08:15:28 [xiaoqian]
- Wanming: sure, but need support from the vendors
- 08:15:41 [xiaoqian]
- Hax: great, it's a great help to the developers
- 08:18:14 [xiaoqian]
- Wanming: we can add data of those proposals and specs Alex proposed
- 08:18:34 [xiaoqian]
- Angel: feedback for TPAC 2019?
- 08:19:20 [xiaoqian]
- Zhiqiang: we made good progress on 3D Element
- 08:20:06 [xiaoqian]
- Xiaoqian: we should create a new CG for bullet chat
- 08:20:25 [chaals]
- i/Angel: feedback/Topic: TPAC 2019 Feedback
- 08:20:40 [naomi]
- naomi has joined #Chinese-Web-en
- 08:21:16 [xiaoqian]
- Angel: are you satisfy with the progress as we are in the second year of Chinese IG?
- 08:21:49 [xiaoqian]
- ... my own thinking is it's very important to communicate with the other members before the session
- 08:22:14 [xiaoqian]
- ... to reduce objection and doubt from the foreign companies
- 08:23:03 [xfq]
- scribenick: xfq
- 08:23:05 [xfq]
- angel: talk with the relavant people before the meeting is also helpful
- 08:23:44 [naomi]
- naomi has joined #Chinese-Web-en
- 08:24:04 [xfq]
- chunming: re breakout session
- 08:24:04 [xfq]
- ... we need to be careful about the wording "this is unique requirement from China"
- 08:24:04 [xfq]
- ... it can be used in other parts of the world too
- 08:24:44 [xfq]
- ... we can also talk about our proposal (next step) during our breakout sessions
- 08:25:49 [xfq]
- zhiqiang: there were lots of discussions in the HTML 3D element breakout session
- 08:26:16 [xfq]
- xiaoqian: potential next Chinese IG F2F topic: AR/VR
- 08:26:47 [xfq]
- ... propose early next year, after Spring Festival
- 08:27:14 [xfq]
- ... would be better to hold it before AC 2020
- 08:27:44 [xfq]
- s/be better to/be good to/
- 08:28:39 [xfq]
- xiaoqian: face tracking scenarios
- 08:29:11 [xiaoqian]
- s/xiaoqian: face/qingqian: face
- 08:29:25 [chaals]
- q+ to suggest taking face tracking to privacy interest group early…
- 08:29:41 [xfq]
- bobby: any interest in CSS from Chinese companies
- 08:29:41 [xfq]
- ... I think attending CSSWG meetings is a good opportunity for learning
- 08:30:02 [xfq]
- chaals: you should talk face tracking with PING
- 08:30:49 [xfq]
- ... it has privacy implications
- 08:31:10 [xfq]
- ... talk to PING about what can be done, and what can not
- 08:32:23 [xfq]
- hax: re CSSWG
- 08:32:24 [xfq]
- ... 360 has people interested in (and following) work in CSSWG
- 08:33:29 [xfq]
- ... although most people use libraries and frameworks
- 08:33:29 [xfq]
- ... there are people *working on* those libraries and frameworks, and need to learn new CSS features
- 08:34:31 [xfq]
- xiaoqian: some people thinks our white paper as standards
- 08:34:31 [xfq]
- ... do we need to clarify?
- 08:36:24 [xfq]
- bobby: some journalists do not know our work
- 08:36:24 [xfq]
- ... and wrote articles with somewhat hostility
- 08:37:08 [xfq]
- angel: maybe we can write blog posts
- 08:38:20 [xfq]
- rrsagent, make minutes
- 08:38:20 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/20-Chinese-Web-en-minutes.html xfq
- 08:39:01 [naomi]
- naomi has joined #Chinese-Web-en
- 08:40:00 [xfq]
- angel: this is the first F2F for us in TPAC
- 08:40:39 [xfq]
- ... hope we produce more stuff next year
- 08:40:40 [xfq]
- ... maybe a longer F2F
- 08:40:40 [xfq]
- ... thanks for all of your hard work!
- 08:41:06 [xfq]
- ... there wasn't many Chinese people in TPAC a few years ago
- 08:41:58 [xfq]
- ... in the future there may not be a need for a Chinese IG
- 08:41:58 [xfq]
- ... we can work in W3C working groups when the Chinese community is mature enough
- 08:42:34 [xfq]
- ... also thanks a lot for support internationally
- 08:42:37 [xfq]
- ... including people attending this meeting
- 08:43:21 [xfq]
- bobby: LG worked on Android Wear a few years ago
- 08:43:21 [xfq]
- ... proposed CSS Round Display
- 08:43:48 [xfq]
- ... it's can be used in iPhone X now
- 08:44:12 [xfq]
- ... hope we can incubate similar technical proposals
- 08:44:49 [xfq]
- s/incubate similar technical proposals/incubate our technical proposals in a similar way/
- 08:45:05 [xfq]
- rrsagent, make minutes
- 08:45:05 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/20-Chinese-Web-en-minutes.html xfq
- 08:48:50 [chaals]
- chaals has joined #chinese-web-en
- 09:16:05 [Guest19]
- Guest19 has joined #chinese-web-en
- 09:45:00 [Guest19]
- Guest19 has joined #chinese-web-en
- 10:50:57 [chaals]
- chaals has joined #chinese-web-en
- 11:45:17 [Zakim]
- Zakim has left #Chinese-Web-en
- 13:30:28 [Chunming]
- Chunming has joined #chinese-web-en
- 13:37:56 [nigel]
- nigel has joined #Chinese-Web-en
- 13:41:13 [xfq]
- xfq has joined #chinese-web-en
- 13:42:53 [xfq]
- xfq has joined #chinese-web-en
- 14:12:19 [xiaoqian]
- xiaoqian has joined #Chinese-Web-en
- 20:25:05 [chaals]
- chaals has joined #chinese-web-en
- 21:37:28 [chaals]
- chaals has joined #chinese-web-en