IRC log of pwg on 2019-09-19
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 06:02:26 [RRSAgent]
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- logging to https://www.w3.org/2019/09/19-pwg-irc
- 06:02:36 [wendyreid]
- Meeting: PWG Session with Amazon
- 06:02:38 [wendyreid]
- Chair: wendyreid
- 06:02:46 [wendyreid]
- Date: 2019-09-19
- 06:03:27 [laudrain]
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- 06:03:33 [gpellegrino]
- present+
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- 06:03:38 [Rachel]
- present+
- 06:03:40 [Yanni]
- present+
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- present+
- 06:03:43 [wendyreid]
- present+
- 06:03:45 [romain]
- present+
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- present+
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- present+
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- scribe+
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- present+
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- present+
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- present+
- 06:04:20 [laudrain]
- Wendy: short meeting with Amazon, welcome Stanton
- 06:04:33 [laudrain]
- stantonm: kindle team
- 06:05:17 [dauwhe]
- present+
- 06:05:21 [laudrain]
- wendyreid: we’d love Amazon join Publishing@W3C
- 06:05:30 [laudrain]
- roundtable
- 06:06:52 [bkardell_]
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- 06:07:36 [laudrain]
- wendyreid: goal today on questions on our activity
- 06:07:47 [toshiakikoike]
- present+
- 06:09:01 [laudrain]
- … question 1: from https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1lgY3cAnRCQ7tgIk-w6FvTv2zYusyAmV_U-JcZh4ItOk/edit#gid=0
- 06:09:17 [stantonm]
- https://kindlegen.s3.amazonaws.com/AmazonKindlePublishingGuidelines.pdf
- 06:09:22 [laudrain]
- … Educational texts often include complex images and tables. Currently, the kindle recommendations suggest that to have a more accessible EPUB, the number of complex tables is limited or converted to images - in contrast to accessibility guidelines. For extended description, if the content is hidden using CSS (aside.hidden) swaths of content are often lost along with the extended discription. How can we get these elements of the EPUB CSS and HTML to translate
- 06:09:22 [laudrain]
- more accurately to kindle?
- 06:09:40 [laudrain]
- stantonm: paste guidelines link
- 06:09:59 [laudrain]
- Rachel: discussions at CSUN
- 06:10:15 [laudrain]
- … complex tables, don’t flow well
- 06:10:33 [Avneesh]
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- 06:10:38 [laudrain]
- … tabel evene well coded dn’t work well
- 06:10:52 [laudrain]
- stantonm: we don have problem with larege tables
- 06:11:17 [gpellegrino]
- (every RS has problem with large tables)
- 06:11:24 [laudrain]
- Rachel: accessibility is mandated by universities
- 06:11:38 [dauwhe]
- q+
- 06:11:54 [laudrain]
- … so 2 versions, an Amazon one, and another one for else
- 06:12:04 [laudrain]
- … double produciton costs
- 06:12:25 [laudrain]
- … recomand our customer not tu use the Kindle version
- 06:12:47 [laudrain]
- stantonm: interested to see some content
- 06:12:48 [wendyreid]
- ack dauwhe
- 06:13:12 [laudrain]
- dauwhe: are these tables fonctional in another systems
- 06:13:23 [laudrain]
- Rachel: yes, like VitalSource
- 06:13:39 [laudrain]
- … these systel were developpped with education in mind
- 06:14:01 [laudrain]
- … textbooks require a lot of tweaking
- 06:14:27 [laudrain]
- dauwhe: are there behaviours we want to define ?
- 06:14:44 [laudrain]
- … there is no solutions for mobile devices
- 06:15:29 [laudrain]
- … theorically CSS overflow should sove but small support from reading systems
- 06:15:46 [gpellegrino]
- https://github.com/w3c/publ-cg/issues/49
- 06:15:55 [laudrain]
- wendyreid: quesions in the list may be directed to all RS
- 06:16:23 [laudrain]
- topic question 2:
- 06:16:31 [laudrain]
- We've had some issues with titles being deemed ineligible for enhanced typesetting due to common HTML or CSS, such as display: inline-block or the caption element. Are you working to eliminate such restrictions?
- 06:16:45 [laudrain]
- stantonm: we have a backlog, this is the goal
- 06:17:14 [laudrain]
- … we’re handling the migration to the new engine
- 06:17:37 [laudrain]
- … we prioritize some features
- 06:17:41 [laudrain]
- q+
- 06:17:53 [wendyreid]
- ack laudrain
- 06:18:02 [duga]
- q+
- 06:18:24 [laudrain]
- … new engine, fine typesetting, it is in Kindle previewer
- 06:19:08 [dauwhe]
- https://github.com/FriendsOfEpub/WillThatBeOverriden/blob/master/ReadingSystems/Kindle/KDF-KFX/KindlePreviewer3.md
- 06:19:09 [laudrain]
- stantonm: EPUB is the input
- 06:19:11 [wendyreid]
- ack duga
- 06:19:33 [dauwhe]
- q+
- 06:19:37 [laudrain]
- brady: itntersting to have you part of this community
- 06:19:59 [laudrain]
- … publishers use features that work everywhere
- 06:20:17 [laudrain]
- … so we are getting the fonctionnality only we support
- 06:20:42 [laudrain]
- … it would be good to share together on this subject
- 06:21:12 [laudrain]
- wendyreid: see the ebookcraft
- 06:21:28 [laudrain]
- … ‘don’t be creative’…
- 06:21:33 [wendyreid]
- ack dauwhe
- 06:21:49 [laudrain]
- dauwhe: what Brady said
- 06:21:54 [romain]
- q+
- 06:22:02 [laudrain]
- … see the link in the iRC
- 06:22:10 [laudrain]
- … we
- 06:22:12 [wendyreid]
- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8OOHyBT-l_0 Theresa's talk
- 06:22:27 [laudrain]
- … rely on the minilum commun denominator
- 06:22:37 [wendyreid]
- ack romain
- 06:22:40 [dauwhe]
- s/minilum commun/lowest common/
- 06:22:51 [laudrain]
- romain: test platform for ereaders
- 06:22:59 [laudrain]
- … difficult to implement
- 06:23:24 [laudrain]
- … what does it mean for Kindle? same at Google, Kobo, Apple…
- 06:23:29 [dauwhe]
- q+
- 06:23:39 [laudrain]
- … discuss how to improve the situation?
- 06:23:47 [wendyreid]
- ack dauwhe
- 06:24:17 [laudrain]
- dauwhe: there was hundreds of tests, running the test is very dificul
- 06:24:28 [laudrain]
- topic: Quesiotn 3
- 06:24:29 [dauwhe]
- s/hundreds/hundreds of thousands/
- 06:24:30 [laudrain]
- Recently Amazon starts to sell ebooks in Tradition Chinese from publishers in Taiwan. But only EPubs in horizontal writing are accepted. I believe that Amazon had done well to support conversion from EPUBs in vertical writing in Japan from 2012. Will Amazon align with i18n requirement of web when dw eloping its own format?
- 06:25:00 [laudrain]
- stantonm: we accept EPUb and want to conform to EPUB guidelines
- 06:25:24 [Yanni]
- q+
- 06:25:25 [laudrain]
- … we want to honor the styels from the original EPUB
- 06:25:42 [laudrain]
- … like for vertical for chinese.
- 06:25:44 [inamori_]
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- 06:25:52 [laudrain]
- … every book, every language
- 06:26:08 [wendyreid]
- ack Yanni
- 06:26:25 [laudrain]
- Yanni: vertical writing in Japan and Taiwan
- 06:26:56 [laudrain]
- … if you can do for chinese, it shoudl be ok for Japan
- 06:27:09 [laudrain]
- topic: question 4
- 06:27:17 [laudrain]
- Does Amazon still support KF7?
- 06:27:47 [laudrain]
- dauwhe: i have to scripts that propoagte styles in all the paragraphs
- 06:28:05 [laudrain]
- … as descendant selectors are not doing the work
- 06:28:24 [laudrain]
- … some kindle devices never upgrade
- 06:28:36 [laudrain]
- … we would like to stop worrying on that
- 06:28:50 [laudrain]
- stantonm: we don’t upgrade these devices
- 06:29:13 [laudrain]
- … many devices would not get this
- 06:29:36 [laudrain]
- dauwhe: test on my Kindle 1 and Kindle 2
- 06:29:46 [laudrain]
- stantonm: devices breaks
- 06:30:28 [laudrain]
- … unofficially you should not care about
- 06:30:59 [laudrain]
- topic question 5: Using Kindle with assistive technologies on iOS, Android and Windows we are not able to navigate the content by headings (h1, h2, h3, ...) is it a limit of the reading solutions or of the file format?
- 06:31:20 [laudrain]
- stantonn: we are committed to accessibility
- 06:31:38 [laudrain]
- topic: question Amazon’s "enhanced typesetting” feature interacts with text-to-speech accessibility features. Even if every image has <alt> descriptions in the EPUB we send to Amazon, those descriptions may not be available to Kindle customers. This makes the Kindle ebook significantly less accessible that the EPUB version.
- 06:31:46 [laudrain]
- stantonm: same line
- 06:32:10 [duga]
- q+
- 06:32:26 [wendyreid]
- ack duga
- 06:32:28 [laudrain]
- dauwhe: some people in operation try to answer the questions
- 06:33:33 [laudrain]
- duga: I hear « why are you doing these things »
- 06:33:53 [romain]
- q+
- 06:33:58 [laudrain]
- wendyreid: Liisa sending files that don’t work.
- 06:34:26 [laudrain]
- … we have front line access to the best expertise in accessibility
- 06:34:40 [laudrain]
- … a real benefit for this group
- 06:34:49 [laudrain]
- q?
- 06:34:50 [wendyreid]
- ack romain
- 06:35:15 [laudrain]
- romain: we do want you in the group, but what about an open issue tracker ?
- 06:35:27 [dauwhe]
- q+
- 06:35:29 [laudrain]
- … to open to people external of this group
- 06:35:36 [laudrain]
- … and tracking
- 06:35:59 [laudrain]
- wendyreid: user agent implementation
- 06:36:18 [laudrain]
- duga: i let the idea, but getting the feedback
- 06:36:28 [dauwhe]
- q?
- 06:36:35 [laudrain]
- … but we cannot read all
- 06:36:57 [laudrain]
- romain: it could reduce the feedback
- 06:37:00 [wendyreid]
- ack dauwhe
- 06:37:19 [laudrain]
- dauwhe: i like the idea but doing triage can be a lot of work
- 06:37:19 [romain]
- s/the feedback/the feedback noise/
- 06:38:07 [laudrain]
- … trying and seeing the scale of it
- 06:38:38 [laudrain]
- Travis: gratefull to be here
- 06:39:09 [laudrain]
- … advantages and drawback sitting here for someone of Amazon?
- 06:39:20 [laudrain]
- stantonm: interested in joining
- 06:39:34 [laudrain]
- … no promises
- 06:40:16 [laudrain]
- … getting more customer feedback, but not too overwelming
- 06:40:38 [laudrain]
- topic question:ONIX question. When Amazon switches to ONIX 3, will they accept or require accessibility metadata about ebook features and restrictions in ONIX?
- 06:40:57 [dauwhe]
- q+
- 06:40:59 [laudrain]
- stantonm: do not know, not on my perimeter
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- 06:41:22 [romain]
- ack dauwhe
- 06:41:40 [laudrain]
- dauwhe: a11y inside the EPUB and in the ONIX feed
- 06:41:51 [wendyreid]
- ack dauwhe
- 06:42:01 [laudrain]
- … in EPUB, is there someone to read that ?
- 06:42:17 [laudrain]
- stantonm: not much visibility on this
- 06:42:47 [laudrain]
- question: Kindle text-to-speech doesn’t seem to respond well to foreign languages text in a predominantly English language ebook - Greek text tagged as Greek is read out letter by letter rather as words. (Note that we haven’t tested this extensively.)
- 06:43:14 [laudrain]
- stantonm: should be read correctly with TTS
- 06:43:32 [laudrain]
- … if there are tags in, need specific examples
- 06:43:51 [laudrain]
- question: There’s no graceful fallback when devices don’t support certain EPUB features - eg if an ebook contains embedded audio, by default Amazon simply disables sales to some devices, even though the text of the ebook would be readable.
- 06:44:04 [laudrain]
- stantonm: interesting, need samples
- 06:44:12 [dauwhe]
- q+
- 06:44:21 [laudrain]
- quesiton: Very few epub:types are supported, meaning Kindle text-to-speech has very limited access to semantic information, and can’t properly handle elements which should be skipped by text-to-speech.
- 06:44:58 [laudrain]
- stantonm: use epub:type or css type, we prefer css
- 06:45:08 [laudrain]
- romain: we recommand aira role
- 06:45:13 [wendyreid]
- ack dauwhe
- 06:45:20 [laudrain]
- stantonm: my recognition as well
- 06:45:30 [romain]
- s/aira role/ARIA role/
- 06:45:41 [laudrain]
- dauwhe: does CSS aural be supported
- 06:46:14 [laudrain]
- romain: css ok for hiding, but ARIA should be used
- 06:47:12 [laudrain]
- romain: figure caption should be skipped
- 06:47:21 [laudrain]
- … some rs support that
- 06:48:14 [laudrain]
- question: W3C is working on specification for audio publications with similar use cases. Would the audible team be interested in participating in the working group or providing feedback on FPWD of Audiobooks specification
- 06:48:37 [laudrain]
- stantonm: audible is separate from kindle
- 06:48:53 [laudrain]
- question: How can we get the feedback that our work on EPUB Accessibility specification is working on the Kindle platform?
- 06:49:14 [laudrain]
- stantonm: in the kindle pub guidelines
- 06:49:22 [laudrain]
- q+
- 06:49:32 [dauwhe]
- q+
- 06:49:36 [wendyreid]
- ack laudrain
- 06:50:12 [wendyreid]
- laudrain: We'd be very happy if the Kindle Publishing Guidelines are edited to include accessibility guidelines
- 06:50:19 [wendyreid]
- ... we produce born accessible files
- 06:50:32 [wendyreid]
- ... we are using all of the validators and checkers (EPUBCheck, ACE)
- 06:50:47 [romain]
- s/ACE/Ace/
- 06:51:04 [wendyreid]
- ... we have these files at Hachette Livre and LIA, we have to say that these files go through Kindlegen, and they lose some features
- 06:51:22 [wendyreid]
- ... Kindle Guidelines are not clear in this area
- 06:51:33 [wendyreid]
- ... we would be happy to see this supported in the guidelines
- 06:51:54 [wendyreid]
- ... we rely on kindle gen for this
- 06:52:03 [wendyreid]
- ... we want to keep all of the features
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- 06:52:48 [wendyreid]
- laudrain: This is important to Europe because of the European Accessibility Act
- 06:52:53 [wendyreid]
- q?
- 06:52:56 [dauwhe]
- github-bot, reboot
- 06:52:56 [github-bot]
- dauwhe, Sorry, I can't reboot right now because I have buffered topics in #dap #pwg #svg #tt.
- 06:52:58 [wendyreid]
- scribe+
- 06:53:48 [laudrain]
- stantonm: we have a whole team dedicated to a11y
- 06:53:52 [dauwhe]
- q?
- 06:54:04 [dauwhe]
- q-
- 06:54:20 [laudrain]
- wendyreid: is there any quesition form you
- 06:54:39 [laudrain]
- stantonm: better undestand the publishers, and opne a communicaiotn channel
- 06:54:56 [wendyreid]
- https://github.com/kobolabs/epub-spec
- 06:55:04 [laudrain]
- wendyreid: kobo publish guidelines
- 06:55:05 [romain]
- s/opne/open/
- 06:55:20 [romain]
- s/communicaiotn/communication/
- 06:55:24 [laudrain]
- … content creators give issues
- 06:55:30 [romain]
- s/undestand/understand/
- 06:55:37 [laudrain]
- … the volume has been that bad
- 06:55:52 [romain]
- s/form you/from you/
- 06:56:31 [laudrain]
- stantonm: to RS folks, about EPUB, is it ambuguous
- 06:57:00 [romain]
- s/ambuguous/ambiguous/
- 06:57:10 [laudrain]
- dauwhe: in EPUB3.2 we had people from Microsoft and they ask good questions
- 06:57:32 [laudrain]
- duga: we are cleaning up and fixing
- 06:57:52 [laudrain]
- .. tracking ambiguity
- 06:58:27 [laudrain]
- wendyreid: some talk about the future of EPUB 3.2, RS guidelines
- 06:58:50 [laudrain]
- … and also making the spec in REC process
- 06:59:26 [laudrain]
- … EPUB will not be let in a dusty corner
- 06:59:27 [Yanni]
- We also created a "Taiwan EPUB 3 Guideline" based on EBPAJ's version which approved by most major publishers and ebook platforms in Taiwan last year. https://github.com/dpublishing/epub3guide
- 06:59:36 [laudrain]
- … thank you for coming
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- 22:02:38 [Ralph]
- rrsagent, bye
- 22:03:06 [Ralph]
- rrsagent, make record public
- 22:03:09 [Ralph]
- rrsagent, bye
- 22:03:09 [RRSAgent]
- I see no action items