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06:02:36 <wendyreid> Meeting: PWG Session with Amazon
06:02:38 <wendyreid> Chair: wendyreid
06:02:46 <wendyreid> Date: 2019-09-19
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06:04:20 <laudrain> Wendy: short meeting with Amazon, welcome Stanton
06:04:33 <laudrain> stantonm: kindle team
06:05:17 <dauwhe> present+
06:05:21 <laudrain> wendyreid: we’d love Amazon join Publishing@W3C
06:05:30 <laudrain> roundtable
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06:07:36 <laudrain> wendyreid: goal today on questions on our activity
06:07:47 <toshiakikoike> present+
06:09:01 <laudrain> … question 1: from  https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1lgY3cAnRCQ7tgIk-w6FvTv2zYusyAmV_U-JcZh4ItOk/edit#gid=0
06:09:17 <stantonm> https://kindlegen.s3.amazonaws.com/AmazonKindlePublishingGuidelines.pdf
06:09:22 <laudrain> … Educational texts often include complex images and tables. Currently, the kindle recommendations suggest that to have a more accessible EPUB, the number of complex tables is limited or converted to images - in contrast to accessibility guidelines. For extended description, if the content is hidden using CSS (aside.hidden) swaths of content are often lost along with the extended discription. How can we get these elements of the EPUB CSS and HTML to translate
06:09:22 <laudrain> more accurately to kindle?
06:09:40 <laudrain> stantonm: paste guidelines link
06:09:59 <laudrain> Rachel: discussions at CSUN
06:10:15 <laudrain> … complex tables, don’t flow well
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06:10:38 <laudrain> … tabel evene well coded dn’t work well
06:10:52 <laudrain> stantonm: we don have problem with larege tables
06:11:17 <gpellegrino> (every RS has problem with large tables)
06:11:24 <laudrain> Rachel: accessibility is mandated by universities
06:11:38 <dauwhe> q+
06:11:54 <laudrain> … so 2 versions, an Amazon one, and another one for else
06:12:04 <laudrain> … double produciton costs
06:12:25 <laudrain> … recomand our customer not tu use the Kindle version
06:12:47 <laudrain> stantonm: interested to see some content
06:12:48 <wendyreid> ack dauwhe
06:13:12 <laudrain> dauwhe: are these tables fonctional in another systems
06:13:23 <laudrain> Rachel: yes, like VitalSource
06:13:39 <laudrain> … these systel were developpped with education in mind
06:14:01 <laudrain> … textbooks require a lot of tweaking
06:14:27 <laudrain> dauwhe: are there behaviours we want to define ?
06:14:44 <laudrain> … there is no solutions for mobile devices
06:15:29 <laudrain> … theorically CSS overflow should sove but small support from reading systems
06:15:46 <gpellegrino> https://github.com/w3c/publ-cg/issues/49
06:15:55 <laudrain> wendyreid: quesions in the list may be directed to all RS
06:16:23 <laudrain> topic question 2:
06:16:31 <laudrain> We've had some issues with titles being deemed ineligible for enhanced typesetting due to common HTML or CSS, such as display: inline-block or the caption element. Are you working to eliminate such restrictions?
06:16:45 <laudrain> stantonm: we have a backlog, this is the goal
06:17:14 <laudrain> … we’re handling the migration to the new engine
06:17:37 <laudrain> … we prioritize some features
06:17:41 <laudrain> q+
06:17:53 <wendyreid> ack laudrain
06:18:02 <duga> q+
06:18:24 <laudrain> … new engine, fine typesetting, it is in Kindle previewer
06:19:08 <dauwhe> https://github.com/FriendsOfEpub/WillThatBeOverriden/blob/master/ReadingSystems/Kindle/KDF-KFX/KindlePreviewer3.md
06:19:09 <laudrain> stantonm: EPUB is the input
06:19:11 <wendyreid> ack duga
06:19:33 <dauwhe> q+
06:19:37 <laudrain> brady: itntersting to have you part of this community
06:19:59 <laudrain> … publishers use features that work everywhere
06:20:17 <laudrain> … so we are getting the fonctionnality only we support
06:20:42 <laudrain> … it would be good to share together on this subject
06:21:12 <laudrain> wendyreid: see the ebookcraft
06:21:28 <laudrain> … ‘don’t be creative’…
06:21:33 <wendyreid> ack dauwhe
06:21:49 <laudrain> dauwhe: what Brady said
06:21:54 <romain> q+
06:22:02 <laudrain> … see the link in the iRC
06:22:10 <laudrain> … we
06:22:12 <wendyreid> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8OOHyBT-l_0 Theresa's talk
06:22:27 <laudrain> … rely on the minilum commun denominator
06:22:37 <wendyreid> ack romain
06:22:40 <dauwhe> s/minilum commun/lowest common/
06:22:51 <laudrain> romain: test platform for ereaders
06:22:59 <laudrain> … difficult to implement
06:23:24 <laudrain> … what does it mean for Kindle? same at Google, Kobo, Apple…
06:23:29 <dauwhe> q+
06:23:39 <laudrain> … discuss how to improve the situation?
06:23:47 <wendyreid> ack dauwhe
06:24:17 <laudrain> dauwhe: there was hundreds of tests, running the test is very dificul
06:24:28 <laudrain> topic: Quesiotn 3
06:24:29 <dauwhe> s/hundreds/hundreds of thousands/
06:24:30 <laudrain> Recently Amazon starts to sell ebooks in Tradition Chinese from publishers in Taiwan. But only EPubs in horizontal writing are accepted. I believe that Amazon had done well to support conversion from EPUBs in vertical writing in Japan from 2012. Will Amazon align with i18n requirement of web when dw eloping its own format?
06:25:00 <laudrain> stantonm: we accept EPUb and want to conform to EPUB guidelines
06:25:24 <Yanni> q+
06:25:25 <laudrain> … we want to honor the styels from the original EPUB
06:25:42 <laudrain> … like for vertical for chinese.
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06:25:52 <laudrain> … every book, every language
06:26:08 <wendyreid> ack Yanni
06:26:25 <laudrain> Yanni: vertical writing in Japan and Taiwan
06:26:56 <laudrain> … if you can do for chinese, it shoudl be ok for Japan
06:27:09 <laudrain> topic: question 4
06:27:17 <laudrain> Does Amazon still support KF7?
06:27:47 <laudrain> dauwhe: i have to scripts that propoagte styles in all the paragraphs
06:28:05 <laudrain> … as descendant selectors are not doing the work
06:28:24 <laudrain> … some kindle devices never upgrade
06:28:36 <laudrain> … we would like to stop worrying on that
06:28:50 <laudrain> stantonm: we don’t upgrade these devices
06:29:13 <laudrain> … many devices would not get this
06:29:36 <laudrain> dauwhe: test on my Kindle 1 and Kindle 2
06:29:46 <laudrain> stantonm: devices breaks
06:30:28 <laudrain> … unofficially you should not care about
06:30:59 <laudrain> topic question 5: Using Kindle with assistive technologies on iOS, Android and Windows we are not able to navigate the content by headings (h1, h2, h3, ...) is it a limit of the reading solutions or of the file format?
06:31:20 <laudrain> stantonn: we are committed to accessibility
06:31:38 <laudrain> topic: question Amazon’s "enhanced typesetting” feature interacts with text-to-speech accessibility features. Even if every image has <alt> descriptions in the EPUB we send to Amazon, those descriptions may not be available to Kindle customers.  This makes the Kindle ebook significantly less accessible that the EPUB version.
06:31:46 <laudrain> stantonm: same line
06:32:10 <duga> q+
06:32:26 <wendyreid> ack duga
06:32:28 <laudrain> dauwhe: some people in operation try to answer the questions
06:33:33 <laudrain> duga: I hear « why are you doing these things »
06:33:53 <romain> q+
06:33:58 <laudrain> wendyreid: Liisa sending files that don’t work.
06:34:26 <laudrain> … we have front line access to the best expertise in accessibility
06:34:40 <laudrain> … a real benefit for this group
06:34:49 <laudrain> q?
06:34:50 <wendyreid> ack romain
06:35:15 <laudrain> romain: we do want you in the group, but what about an open issue tracker ?
06:35:27 <dauwhe> q+
06:35:29 <laudrain> … to open to people external of this group
06:35:36 <laudrain> … and tracking
06:35:59 <laudrain> wendyreid: user agent implementation
06:36:18 <laudrain> duga: i let the idea, but getting the feedback
06:36:28 <dauwhe> q?
06:36:35 <laudrain> … but we cannot read all
06:36:57 <laudrain> romain: it could reduce the feedback
06:37:00 <wendyreid> ack dauwhe
06:37:19 <laudrain> dauwhe: i like the idea but doing triage can be a lot of work
06:37:19 <romain> s/the feedback/the feedback noise/
06:38:07 <laudrain> … trying and seeing the scale of it
06:38:38 <laudrain> Travis: gratefull to be here
06:39:09 <laudrain> … advantages and drawback sitting here for someone of Amazon?
06:39:20 <laudrain> stantonm: interested in joining
06:39:34 <laudrain> … no promises
06:40:16 <laudrain> … getting more customer feedback, but not too overwelming
06:40:38 <laudrain> topic question:ONIX question.  When Amazon switches to ONIX 3, will they accept or require accessibility metadata about ebook features and restrictions in ONIX?
06:40:57 <dauwhe> q+
06:40:59 <laudrain> stantonm: do not know, not on my perimeter
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06:41:22 <romain> ack dauwhe
06:41:40 <laudrain> dauwhe: a11y inside the EPUB and in the ONIX feed
06:41:51 <wendyreid> ack dauwhe
06:42:01 <laudrain> … in EPUB, is there someone to read that ?
06:42:17 <laudrain> stantonm: not much visibility on this
06:42:47 <laudrain> question: Kindle text-to-speech doesn’t seem to respond well to foreign languages text in a predominantly English language ebook - Greek text tagged as Greek is read out letter by letter rather as words. (Note that we haven’t tested this extensively.)
06:43:14 <laudrain> stantonm: should be read correctly with TTS
06:43:32 <laudrain> … if there are tags in, need specific examples
06:43:51 <laudrain> question: There’s no graceful fallback when devices don’t support certain EPUB features - eg if an ebook contains embedded audio, by default Amazon simply disables sales to some devices, even though the text of the ebook would be readable.
06:44:04 <laudrain> stantonm: interesting, need samples
06:44:12 <dauwhe> q+
06:44:21 <laudrain> quesiton: Very few epub:types are supported, meaning Kindle text-to-speech has very limited access to semantic information, and can’t properly handle elements which should be skipped by text-to-speech.
06:44:58 <laudrain> stantonm: use epub:type or css type, we prefer css
06:45:08 <laudrain> romain: we recommand aira role
06:45:13 <wendyreid> ack dauwhe
06:45:20 <laudrain> stantonm: my recognition as well
06:45:30 <romain> s/aira role/ARIA role/
06:45:41 <laudrain> dauwhe: does CSS aural be supported
06:46:14 <laudrain> romain: css ok for hiding, but ARIA should be used
06:47:12 <laudrain> romain: figure caption should be skipped
06:47:21 <laudrain> … some rs support that
06:48:14 <laudrain> question: W3C is working on specification for audio publications with similar use cases. Would the audible team be interested in participating in the working group or providing feedback  on FPWD of Audiobooks specification
06:48:37 <laudrain> stantonm: audible is separate from kindle
06:48:53 <laudrain> question: How can we get the feedback that our work on EPUB Accessibility specification is working on the Kindle platform?
06:49:14 <laudrain> stantonm: in the kindle pub guidelines
06:49:22 <laudrain> q+
06:49:32 <dauwhe> q+
06:49:36 <wendyreid> ack laudrain
06:50:12 <wendyreid> laudrain: We'd be very happy if the Kindle Publishing Guidelines are edited to include accessibility guidelines
06:50:19 <wendyreid> ... we produce born accessible files
06:50:32 <wendyreid> ... we are using all of the validators and checkers (EPUBCheck, ACE)
06:50:47 <romain> s/ACE/Ace/
06:51:04 <wendyreid> ... we have these files at Hachette Livre and LIA, we have to say that these files go through Kindlegen, and they lose some features
06:51:22 <wendyreid> ... Kindle Guidelines are not clear in this area
06:51:33 <wendyreid> ... we would be happy to see this supported in the guidelines
06:51:54 <wendyreid> ... we rely on kindle gen for this
06:52:03 <wendyreid> ... we want to keep all of the features
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06:52:48 <wendyreid> laudrain: This is important to Europe because of the European Accessibility Act
06:52:53 <wendyreid> q?
06:52:56 <dauwhe> github-bot, reboot
06:52:56 <github-bot> dauwhe, Sorry, I can't reboot right now because I have buffered topics in #dap #pwg #svg #tt.
06:52:58 <wendyreid> scribe+
06:53:48 <laudrain> stantonm: we have a whole team dedicated to a11y
06:53:52 <dauwhe> q?
06:54:04 <dauwhe> q-
06:54:20 <laudrain> wendyreid: is there any quesition form you
06:54:39 <laudrain> stantonm: better undestand the publishers, and opne a communicaiotn channel
06:54:56 <wendyreid> https://github.com/kobolabs/epub-spec
06:55:04 <laudrain> wendyreid: kobo publish guidelines
06:55:05 <romain> s/opne/open/
06:55:20 <romain> s/communicaiotn/communication/
06:55:24 <laudrain> … content creators give issues
06:55:30 <romain> s/undestand/understand/
06:55:37 <laudrain> … the volume has been that bad
06:55:52 <romain> s/form you/from you/
06:56:31 <laudrain> stantonm: to RS folks, about EPUB, is it ambuguous
06:57:00 <romain> s/ambuguous/ambiguous/
06:57:10 <laudrain> dauwhe: in EPUB3.2 we had people from Microsoft and they ask good questions
06:57:32 <laudrain> duga: we are cleaning up and fixing
06:57:52 <laudrain> .. tracking ambiguity
06:58:27 <laudrain> wendyreid: some talk about the future of EPUB 3.2, RS guidelines
06:58:50 <laudrain> … and also making the spec in REC process
06:59:26 <laudrain> … EPUB will  not be let in a dusty corner
06:59:27 <Yanni> We also created a "Taiwan EPUB 3 Guideline" based on EBPAJ's version which approved by most major publishers and ebook platforms in Taiwan last year. https://github.com/dpublishing/epub3guide
06:59:36 <laudrain> … thank you for coming
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22:02:38 <Ralph> rrsagent, bye
22:03:06 <Ralph> rrsagent, make record public
22:03:09 <Ralph> rrsagent, bye
22:03:09 <RRSAgent> I see no action items