IRC log of m4h on 2019-09-19

Timestamps are in UTC.

23:37:23 [RRSAgent]
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23:37:23 [RRSAgent]
logging to https://www.w3.org/2019/09/19-m4h-irc
23:44:26 [prushforth]
satakagi: kddi corp is cell phone carrier in Japan. I attend SVG wg as member. Interest in standardization for maps; but v difficult
23:45:05 [prushforth]
... webis decentralized but services such as huge mappers is not
23:45:37 [prushforth]
... we map info such as power lines, and other infrastructure. Linked open data is a use case for our company operation
23:47:37 [prushforth]
bkardell: with Igalia and Open JS Foundation
23:49:19 [prushforth]
mark baker: audioeye inc. is an accessibility company with particular interest in maps and spatial information. have been interested in how accessibiltiy
23:49:54 [prushforth]
... will work in maps and vr / xr. Have heard lots of presentations this week about this. Everyone is interested, but are more or less at the same phase
23:50:04 [bkardell_]
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23:50:06 [prushforth]
... of research and development
23:53:12 [prushforth]
AmeliaBR: shuffle agenda jump to work we've been doing this year. if more join we can go back to introductions
23:53:41 [prushforth]
AmeliaBR: group has been around 5 years. has had a hard time involving browser devs.
23:54:07 [prushforth]
AmeliaBR: when I got involved i thought we needed a more explicit statement of what and why
23:54:29 [prushforth]
AmeliaBR: existing tools largely solve the same problem: this is a cow path in webstandards terms
23:54:38 [AmeliaBR]
https://maps4html.github.io/HTML-Map-Element-UseCases-Requirements/
23:54:43 [prushforth]
AmeliaBR: this is the use cases and requirements see link
23:55:11 [prushforth]
AmeliaBR: we wanted to have a complete draft ready for tpac, this turned out to be too much work to get done in the time we thought
23:55:38 [prushforth]
AmeliaBR: this is a work in progress, and we welcome more contributions to, either use cases or other contribs
23:56:21 [prushforth]
AmeliaBR: applications of the use case: web site author expanding on use case, interact and progressively enhance the base widget
23:57:08 [prushforth]
AmeliaBR: capabilities is a word we're using to describe the individual functions that add up to the total map viewer (not "feature" because overloaded)
23:57:39 [prushforth]
AmeliaBR: looking at existing script implementations, do they each have this, how are the ui configured, are there commonalities
23:57:52 [prushforth]
AmeliaBR: can we use keyboard, mouse, touch etc
23:58:31 [prushforth]
AmeliaBR: once we've narrowed the capability down to a low level feature, we ask does this have application outside geospatial that we can
23:58:49 [prushforth]
... collaborate on with other groups or standards and so not duplicate effort
23:59:20 [prushforth]
AmeliaBR: are capabilities nice to have, critical or antipatterns.
00:00:00 [prushforth]
AmeliaBR: idea is that eventually we'll put this all together as a list of things a native map viewer should be able to do, with a ranking of importance
00:00:02 [prushforth]
amel
00:00:51 [prushforth]
AmeliaBR: we have an existing proposal that (Peter) put togther
00:01:06 [prushforth]
prushforth: clarify this proposal is from the OGC community not just me.
00:01:27 [prushforth]
AmeliaBR: what hasn't happend yet is contributions from the web side
00:01:54 [prushforth]
AmeliaBR: looking to get more engagement from web standards and browser devs as this project moves forward
00:02:31 [prushforth]
AmeliaBR: do a comparison of MapML proposal and SVGMap from satakagi/kddi
00:03:02 [prushforth]
satakagi: https://www.google.com/url?q=https://github.com/satakagi/TPAC2019-docs/blob/master/MAP.md&sa=D&source=hangouts&ust=1569024126498000&usg=AFQjCNHec1V6FVVf2CQGvHKDtaifoMWsXQ
00:05:13 [prushforth]
satakagi: updated the agenda with link to work contribution to maps for html
00:06:20 [prushforth]
satakagi: do we see any change towards decentralized web mapping?
00:07:36 [prushforth]
... gartner : decentralized tech is midway up the hype cycle
00:08:05 [prushforth]
... companies and govs are responsible for social infrastructure
00:08:24 [prushforth]
... discont between geo and web industry resulting in tech mismatch
00:08:49 [prushforth]
... no business model for decentralized web mapping, esp for current web browser vendors
00:09:19 [prushforth]
... kddi submission and dejure standardization regarding web mapping based on browsers native graphics
00:09:34 [prushforth]
... tiling and layering module for svg 1.2 tiny
00:09:58 [prushforth]
... dejure standardization, JIS is on svg 1.2 tiny
00:10:10 [prushforth]
... updated features of svg based mapping
00:10:23 [prushforth]
... decentralized web mapping aplication
00:10:51 [prushforth]
... maps with large numbers of layers are controlled by complex javascript, but also centralized.
00:11:20 [prushforth]
... js logic can be encapsulated in layers if organized as decentralized mapping applications
00:11:50 [prushforth]
... the tiling schem being developed within the geo community is still developing and looks unstabvle.
00:11:56 [prushforth]
... there are many issues
00:12:31 [prushforth]
... tiling schemes are combined by the application
00:12:53 [bkardell_]
q+
00:12:55 [prushforth]
... more efficient tiling scheme example
00:13:05 [prushforth]
... pyramid of quad tree tiling
00:13:38 [prushforth]
... https://github.com/svgmap
00:14:44 [prushforth]
AmeliaBR: thank you for a great overview of some of the high level features of what we need, such as layers, lining up based on geo coords
00:15:41 [prushforth]
AmeliaBR: need a way to tile within a single layer,
00:16:20 [prushforth]
AmeliaBR: need a way such as tiles and scale, to load appropriate data for the users view
00:18:54 [prushforth]
prushforth: hyperlinks are the key to decentralization, we need permissionless federation of map content, leverage web architecture
00:19:59 [prushforth]
bkardell_: question : layers are they independent documents?
00:20:03 [prushforth]
all: yes
00:20:55 [prushforth]
AmeliaBR: layers across domains, may limit some behaviours for such use cases.
00:21:37 [prushforth]
AmeliaBR: everything based on script: you need to ensure yourself that you're not doing dangerous things.
00:23:16 [prushforth]
AmeliaBR: have you (satoru) thought about cross origin issues with your solution?
00:23:47 [prushforth]
bkardell_: is everything in one document, or different docs?
00:24:23 [prushforth]
AmeliaBR: svg use is similar
00:26:27 [prushforth]
simon: you want to do cross origin without
00:26:34 [prushforth]
... proxy
00:27:27 [prushforth]
satoru: iframes are similar security model
00:27:42 [prushforth]
prushforth: different rendering model tho
00:27:53 [prushforth]
simon: what do you want to do with mashups
00:28:23 [prushforth]
AmeliaBR: we are doing exhaustive review of existing tools and common features/ limitations
00:28:40 [prushforth]
AmeliaBR: what should we be able to do, rank them
00:29:07 [prushforth]
simon: as part of that have you id missing primitives?
00:29:23 [prushforth]
AmeliaBR: some things that we've discovered are very map specific
00:29:56 [prushforth]
AmeliaBR: there are other much more general things such as being able to pan and zoom that doesn't match the current document rendering model
00:30:27 [prushforth]
AmeliaBR: what's unique about maps is that you don't have an exhaustive list of the urls, you need to use templates
00:33:39 [prushforth]
simon: have you considered using svg as a fallback?
00:34:25 [prushforth]
AmeliaBR: satoru's model is completely based on svg, so may provide a path forward there
00:35:29 [prushforth]
simon: realistically the fallback is going to be a 100% javascript map, not an element fallback
00:36:04 [prushforth]
bkardell_: like the idea of svg has lots of stuff that you need, what's missing in svg
00:36:14 [prushforth]
AmeliaBR: custom elements in svg
00:36:52 [prushforth]
bkardell_: would be good but the media elements, where the thing that separates the requesting of data from decoding of data
00:37:31 [prushforth]
AmeliaBR: they have a common api, part of the value is that it knows how to find stuff in the files and it is independent
00:38:24 [prushforth]
... maybe we don't need a new map data format, maybe we just need to
00:38:52 [prushforth]
prushforth: the issue is not the format, its the interaction with servers
00:39:34 [prushforth]
AmeliaBR: query strings and form data is how the mapml metadata specs inputs that name parameters to the server
00:42:34 [prushforth]
bkardell_: should be decoders instead of hypertext
00:43:24 [prushforth]
satoru: mashup tool demonstration
00:43:41 [prushforth]
simon: do we want to support projections
00:44:09 [prushforth]
AmeliaBR: yes, the default is web mercator, not universally good, but
00:44:37 [prushforth]
AmeliaBR: huge database of geometric projects, some are associated to standardized tile sets.
00:44:59 [prushforth]
AmeliaBR: mapml uses standardized keywords limited thought
00:45:48 [AmeliaBR]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Well-known_text_representation_of_geometry
00:47:56 [prushforth]
simon: if want support diff projections seems like a different primitive
00:48:51 [AmeliaBR]
s/thought/though; may need a separate data format that can define the projection used in a data set/
00:49:43 [prushforth]
AmeliaBR: only asking for vectors to be transformed
00:50:09 [prushforth]
satoru: webgl image textures
00:51:09 [AmeliaBR]
More relevant link on well-known text: https://www.opengeospatial.org/standards/wkt-crs
00:52:26 [prushforth]
AmeliaBR: once you break it down to those low level primitives
00:52:44 [zcorpan]
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00:52:57 [zcorpan]
present+
00:53:53 [prushforth]
mikes: workshops don't have a fixed format. others have done it in the past where you submit position papers
00:54:57 [prushforth]
... montreal june in coordination with the OGC meeting might be a good opportunity
00:55:23 [prushforth]
mikes: goal is to produce a report leading to a working group, or at least an interest group
00:55:24 [Kris]
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00:55:42 [prushforth]
... if that's where you want to take it
00:56:14 [prushforth]
mikes: I could coordinate, WEndy is coordinator of strategy. I would take to Wendy, try to raise awareness.
00:56:53 [prushforth]
mike: i look for technical merit ; plenty of working groups have been launched over my strong objections.
00:56:55 [satakagi]
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00:57:24 [prushforth]
... part of the goal would be to try to get some companies and orgs involved in bringing use cases and requirements to make sure the work aligns
00:57:42 [prushforth]
... that's how we make this work revenue wise
00:58:26 [prushforth]
... some enthusiasm around this in Japan, there could be other places and orgs
00:58:57 [prushforth]
AmeliaBR: we are developing use cases and requirements hopefully done by next May, or hopefully in advance of when we have to announce the meeting
00:59:11 [prushforth]
AmeliaBR: need more stakeholders to talk to us
00:59:56 [prushforth]
mikes: too much work going on where even w3c team to articulate what the benefit is to actual end users. Come up with a statement.
01:00:16 [prushforth]
mikes: odds of anything getting into html are relatively low.
01:00:48 [prushforth]
... successful way to engage and the community around is to come with a problem, not a solution
01:01:12 [prushforth]
... the default answer is to use custom elements
01:01:25 [prushforth]
simon: need to say what are the missing primitives
01:01:56 [prushforth]
... what are the cow paths that we want to pave. show that it would be worthwhile to add a declarative mechanism
01:02:20 [prushforth]
... data showing there's demand
01:04:18 [prushforth]
open source extension of some mini app
01:06:11 [prushforth]
AmeliaBR: mini app goal is to enhance user experience of web apps bringing the web into closer competition with app platforms
01:07:23 [prushforth]
mikes: use cases recommendation -> decentralization is a bit abstract. Its good to talk about things in more concrete terms.
01:08:11 [prushforth]
... a compelling story is a user can take maps from different providers put them together
01:09:32 [prushforth]
... need to put together a pitch
01:10:06 [prushforth]
AmeliaBR: lots of things that can be improved, not just paved over
01:11:11 [prushforth]
simon: might be worth conducting an mdn type survey. to find pain points, could make convincing people easier
01:13:38 [prushforth]
prushforth: difficult to get people to see what the state could be
01:14:23 [prushforth]
simon: need to design a survey to get at what the issues are
01:14:54 [prushforth]
simon: maybe add a question or two to the mdn survey
01:15:47 [prushforth]
mikes:hadley works for uk gov is in community of people who are advocating for more open data
01:16:18 [satakagi]
present+
01:16:24 [satakagi]
RRSAgent, make logs public
01:16:33 [satakagi]
RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
01:16:33 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/19-m4h-minutes.html satakagi
01:16:33 [prushforth]
AmeliaBR: good example, exploring open data in my city, google maps and that data don't talk
01:17:09 [AmeliaBR]
s/google/some is in GIS and some is in google/
01:19:10 [prushforth]
yoav: what prevents devs from amp - collection of web components - you could develop a web component
01:20:04 [prushforth]
AmeliaBR: custom elements have been developed , but we haven't promoted widely. want / need to iterate before promotion
01:20:36 [prushforth]
... as we get more confident that we have the requirements and architecture, promotion is on our road map.
01:21:24 [prushforth]
... for the user need to get accessibility
01:24:02 [prushforth]
mikes: have discussion about missing primitives with browser developers
01:25:08 [prushforth]
mikes: accessibility talk to doug schepers, who's done a lot of svg related accessibility
01:27:11 [satakagi]
RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
01:27:11 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/19-m4h-minutes.html satakagi
01:27:58 [prushforth]
RRSAgent, draft minutes v3
01:27:58 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'draft minutes v3', prushforth. Try /msg RRSAgent help
01:28:29 [prushforth]
RRSAgent, make logs public
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