IRC log of m4h on 2019-09-19
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 23:37:23 [RRSAgent]
- RRSAgent has joined #m4h
- 23:37:23 [RRSAgent]
- logging to https://www.w3.org/2019/09/19-m4h-irc
- 23:44:26 [prushforth]
- satakagi: kddi corp is cell phone carrier in Japan. I attend SVG wg as member. Interest in standardization for maps; but v difficult
- 23:45:05 [prushforth]
- ... webis decentralized but services such as huge mappers is not
- 23:45:37 [prushforth]
- ... we map info such as power lines, and other infrastructure. Linked open data is a use case for our company operation
- 23:47:37 [prushforth]
- bkardell: with Igalia and Open JS Foundation
- 23:49:19 [prushforth]
- mark baker: audioeye inc. is an accessibility company with particular interest in maps and spatial information. have been interested in how accessibiltiy
- 23:49:54 [prushforth]
- ... will work in maps and vr / xr. Have heard lots of presentations this week about this. Everyone is interested, but are more or less at the same phase
- 23:50:04 [bkardell_]
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- 23:50:06 [prushforth]
- ... of research and development
- 23:53:12 [prushforth]
- AmeliaBR: shuffle agenda jump to work we've been doing this year. if more join we can go back to introductions
- 23:53:41 [prushforth]
- AmeliaBR: group has been around 5 years. has had a hard time involving browser devs.
- 23:54:07 [prushforth]
- AmeliaBR: when I got involved i thought we needed a more explicit statement of what and why
- 23:54:29 [prushforth]
- AmeliaBR: existing tools largely solve the same problem: this is a cow path in webstandards terms
- 23:54:38 [AmeliaBR]
- https://maps4html.github.io/HTML-Map-Element-UseCases-Requirements/
- 23:54:43 [prushforth]
- AmeliaBR: this is the use cases and requirements see link
- 23:55:11 [prushforth]
- AmeliaBR: we wanted to have a complete draft ready for tpac, this turned out to be too much work to get done in the time we thought
- 23:55:38 [prushforth]
- AmeliaBR: this is a work in progress, and we welcome more contributions to, either use cases or other contribs
- 23:56:21 [prushforth]
- AmeliaBR: applications of the use case: web site author expanding on use case, interact and progressively enhance the base widget
- 23:57:08 [prushforth]
- AmeliaBR: capabilities is a word we're using to describe the individual functions that add up to the total map viewer (not "feature" because overloaded)
- 23:57:39 [prushforth]
- AmeliaBR: looking at existing script implementations, do they each have this, how are the ui configured, are there commonalities
- 23:57:52 [prushforth]
- AmeliaBR: can we use keyboard, mouse, touch etc
- 23:58:31 [prushforth]
- AmeliaBR: once we've narrowed the capability down to a low level feature, we ask does this have application outside geospatial that we can
- 23:58:49 [prushforth]
- ... collaborate on with other groups or standards and so not duplicate effort
- 23:59:20 [prushforth]
- AmeliaBR: are capabilities nice to have, critical or antipatterns.
- 00:00:00 [prushforth]
- AmeliaBR: idea is that eventually we'll put this all together as a list of things a native map viewer should be able to do, with a ranking of importance
- 00:00:02 [prushforth]
- amel
- 00:00:51 [prushforth]
- AmeliaBR: we have an existing proposal that (Peter) put togther
- 00:01:06 [prushforth]
- prushforth: clarify this proposal is from the OGC community not just me.
- 00:01:27 [prushforth]
- AmeliaBR: what hasn't happend yet is contributions from the web side
- 00:01:54 [prushforth]
- AmeliaBR: looking to get more engagement from web standards and browser devs as this project moves forward
- 00:02:31 [prushforth]
- AmeliaBR: do a comparison of MapML proposal and SVGMap from satakagi/kddi
- 00:03:02 [prushforth]
- satakagi: https://www.google.com/url?q=https://github.com/satakagi/TPAC2019-docs/blob/master/MAP.md&sa=D&source=hangouts&ust=1569024126498000&usg=AFQjCNHec1V6FVVf2CQGvHKDtaifoMWsXQ
- 00:05:13 [prushforth]
- satakagi: updated the agenda with link to work contribution to maps for html
- 00:06:20 [prushforth]
- satakagi: do we see any change towards decentralized web mapping?
- 00:07:36 [prushforth]
- ... gartner : decentralized tech is midway up the hype cycle
- 00:08:05 [prushforth]
- ... companies and govs are responsible for social infrastructure
- 00:08:24 [prushforth]
- ... discont between geo and web industry resulting in tech mismatch
- 00:08:49 [prushforth]
- ... no business model for decentralized web mapping, esp for current web browser vendors
- 00:09:19 [prushforth]
- ... kddi submission and dejure standardization regarding web mapping based on browsers native graphics
- 00:09:34 [prushforth]
- ... tiling and layering module for svg 1.2 tiny
- 00:09:58 [prushforth]
- ... dejure standardization, JIS is on svg 1.2 tiny
- 00:10:10 [prushforth]
- ... updated features of svg based mapping
- 00:10:23 [prushforth]
- ... decentralized web mapping aplication
- 00:10:51 [prushforth]
- ... maps with large numbers of layers are controlled by complex javascript, but also centralized.
- 00:11:20 [prushforth]
- ... js logic can be encapsulated in layers if organized as decentralized mapping applications
- 00:11:50 [prushforth]
- ... the tiling schem being developed within the geo community is still developing and looks unstabvle.
- 00:11:56 [prushforth]
- ... there are many issues
- 00:12:31 [prushforth]
- ... tiling schemes are combined by the application
- 00:12:53 [bkardell_]
- q+
- 00:12:55 [prushforth]
- ... more efficient tiling scheme example
- 00:13:05 [prushforth]
- ... pyramid of quad tree tiling
- 00:13:38 [prushforth]
- ... https://github.com/svgmap
- 00:14:44 [prushforth]
- AmeliaBR: thank you for a great overview of some of the high level features of what we need, such as layers, lining up based on geo coords
- 00:15:41 [prushforth]
- AmeliaBR: need a way to tile within a single layer,
- 00:16:20 [prushforth]
- AmeliaBR: need a way such as tiles and scale, to load appropriate data for the users view
- 00:18:54 [prushforth]
- prushforth: hyperlinks are the key to decentralization, we need permissionless federation of map content, leverage web architecture
- 00:19:59 [prushforth]
- bkardell_: question : layers are they independent documents?
- 00:20:03 [prushforth]
- all: yes
- 00:20:55 [prushforth]
- AmeliaBR: layers across domains, may limit some behaviours for such use cases.
- 00:21:37 [prushforth]
- AmeliaBR: everything based on script: you need to ensure yourself that you're not doing dangerous things.
- 00:23:16 [prushforth]
- AmeliaBR: have you (satoru) thought about cross origin issues with your solution?
- 00:23:47 [prushforth]
- bkardell_: is everything in one document, or different docs?
- 00:24:23 [prushforth]
- AmeliaBR: svg use is similar
- 00:26:27 [prushforth]
- simon: you want to do cross origin without
- 00:26:34 [prushforth]
- ... proxy
- 00:27:27 [prushforth]
- satoru: iframes are similar security model
- 00:27:42 [prushforth]
- prushforth: different rendering model tho
- 00:27:53 [prushforth]
- simon: what do you want to do with mashups
- 00:28:23 [prushforth]
- AmeliaBR: we are doing exhaustive review of existing tools and common features/ limitations
- 00:28:40 [prushforth]
- AmeliaBR: what should we be able to do, rank them
- 00:29:07 [prushforth]
- simon: as part of that have you id missing primitives?
- 00:29:23 [prushforth]
- AmeliaBR: some things that we've discovered are very map specific
- 00:29:56 [prushforth]
- AmeliaBR: there are other much more general things such as being able to pan and zoom that doesn't match the current document rendering model
- 00:30:27 [prushforth]
- AmeliaBR: what's unique about maps is that you don't have an exhaustive list of the urls, you need to use templates
- 00:33:39 [prushforth]
- simon: have you considered using svg as a fallback?
- 00:34:25 [prushforth]
- AmeliaBR: satoru's model is completely based on svg, so may provide a path forward there
- 00:35:29 [prushforth]
- simon: realistically the fallback is going to be a 100% javascript map, not an element fallback
- 00:36:04 [prushforth]
- bkardell_: like the idea of svg has lots of stuff that you need, what's missing in svg
- 00:36:14 [prushforth]
- AmeliaBR: custom elements in svg
- 00:36:52 [prushforth]
- bkardell_: would be good but the media elements, where the thing that separates the requesting of data from decoding of data
- 00:37:31 [prushforth]
- AmeliaBR: they have a common api, part of the value is that it knows how to find stuff in the files and it is independent
- 00:38:24 [prushforth]
- ... maybe we don't need a new map data format, maybe we just need to
- 00:38:52 [prushforth]
- prushforth: the issue is not the format, its the interaction with servers
- 00:39:34 [prushforth]
- AmeliaBR: query strings and form data is how the mapml metadata specs inputs that name parameters to the server
- 00:42:34 [prushforth]
- bkardell_: should be decoders instead of hypertext
- 00:43:24 [prushforth]
- satoru: mashup tool demonstration
- 00:43:41 [prushforth]
- simon: do we want to support projections
- 00:44:09 [prushforth]
- AmeliaBR: yes, the default is web mercator, not universally good, but
- 00:44:37 [prushforth]
- AmeliaBR: huge database of geometric projects, some are associated to standardized tile sets.
- 00:44:59 [prushforth]
- AmeliaBR: mapml uses standardized keywords limited thought
- 00:45:48 [AmeliaBR]
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Well-known_text_representation_of_geometry
- 00:47:56 [prushforth]
- simon: if want support diff projections seems like a different primitive
- 00:48:51 [AmeliaBR]
- s/thought/though; may need a separate data format that can define the projection used in a data set/
- 00:49:43 [prushforth]
- AmeliaBR: only asking for vectors to be transformed
- 00:50:09 [prushforth]
- satoru: webgl image textures
- 00:51:09 [AmeliaBR]
- More relevant link on well-known text: https://www.opengeospatial.org/standards/wkt-crs
- 00:52:26 [prushforth]
- AmeliaBR: once you break it down to those low level primitives
- 00:52:44 [zcorpan]
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- 00:52:57 [zcorpan]
- present+
- 00:53:53 [prushforth]
- mikes: workshops don't have a fixed format. others have done it in the past where you submit position papers
- 00:54:57 [prushforth]
- ... montreal june in coordination with the OGC meeting might be a good opportunity
- 00:55:23 [prushforth]
- mikes: goal is to produce a report leading to a working group, or at least an interest group
- 00:55:24 [Kris]
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- 00:55:42 [prushforth]
- ... if that's where you want to take it
- 00:56:14 [prushforth]
- mikes: I could coordinate, WEndy is coordinator of strategy. I would take to Wendy, try to raise awareness.
- 00:56:53 [prushforth]
- mike: i look for technical merit ; plenty of working groups have been launched over my strong objections.
- 00:56:55 [satakagi]
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- 00:57:24 [prushforth]
- ... part of the goal would be to try to get some companies and orgs involved in bringing use cases and requirements to make sure the work aligns
- 00:57:42 [prushforth]
- ... that's how we make this work revenue wise
- 00:58:26 [prushforth]
- ... some enthusiasm around this in Japan, there could be other places and orgs
- 00:58:57 [prushforth]
- AmeliaBR: we are developing use cases and requirements hopefully done by next May, or hopefully in advance of when we have to announce the meeting
- 00:59:11 [prushforth]
- AmeliaBR: need more stakeholders to talk to us
- 00:59:56 [prushforth]
- mikes: too much work going on where even w3c team to articulate what the benefit is to actual end users. Come up with a statement.
- 01:00:16 [prushforth]
- mikes: odds of anything getting into html are relatively low.
- 01:00:48 [prushforth]
- ... successful way to engage and the community around is to come with a problem, not a solution
- 01:01:12 [prushforth]
- ... the default answer is to use custom elements
- 01:01:25 [prushforth]
- simon: need to say what are the missing primitives
- 01:01:56 [prushforth]
- ... what are the cow paths that we want to pave. show that it would be worthwhile to add a declarative mechanism
- 01:02:20 [prushforth]
- ... data showing there's demand
- 01:04:18 [prushforth]
- open source extension of some mini app
- 01:06:11 [prushforth]
- AmeliaBR: mini app goal is to enhance user experience of web apps bringing the web into closer competition with app platforms
- 01:07:23 [prushforth]
- mikes: use cases recommendation -> decentralization is a bit abstract. Its good to talk about things in more concrete terms.
- 01:08:11 [prushforth]
- ... a compelling story is a user can take maps from different providers put them together
- 01:09:32 [prushforth]
- ... need to put together a pitch
- 01:10:06 [prushforth]
- AmeliaBR: lots of things that can be improved, not just paved over
- 01:11:11 [prushforth]
- simon: might be worth conducting an mdn type survey. to find pain points, could make convincing people easier
- 01:13:38 [prushforth]
- prushforth: difficult to get people to see what the state could be
- 01:14:23 [prushforth]
- simon: need to design a survey to get at what the issues are
- 01:14:54 [prushforth]
- simon: maybe add a question or two to the mdn survey
- 01:15:47 [prushforth]
- mikes:hadley works for uk gov is in community of people who are advocating for more open data
- 01:16:18 [satakagi]
- present+
- 01:16:24 [satakagi]
- RRSAgent, make logs public
- 01:16:33 [satakagi]
- RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
- 01:16:33 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/19-m4h-minutes.html satakagi
- 01:16:33 [prushforth]
- AmeliaBR: good example, exploring open data in my city, google maps and that data don't talk
- 01:17:09 [AmeliaBR]
- s/google/some is in GIS and some is in google/
- 01:19:10 [prushforth]
- yoav: what prevents devs from amp - collection of web components - you could develop a web component
- 01:20:04 [prushforth]
- AmeliaBR: custom elements have been developed , but we haven't promoted widely. want / need to iterate before promotion
- 01:20:36 [prushforth]
- ... as we get more confident that we have the requirements and architecture, promotion is on our road map.
- 01:21:24 [prushforth]
- ... for the user need to get accessibility
- 01:24:02 [prushforth]
- mikes: have discussion about missing primitives with browser developers
- 01:25:08 [prushforth]
- mikes: accessibility talk to doug schepers, who's done a lot of svg related accessibility
- 01:27:11 [satakagi]
- RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
- 01:27:11 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/19-m4h-minutes.html satakagi
- 01:27:58 [prushforth]
- RRSAgent, draft minutes v3
- 01:27:58 [RRSAgent]
- I'm logging. I don't understand 'draft minutes v3', prushforth. Try /msg RRSAgent help
- 01:28:29 [prushforth]
- RRSAgent, make logs public
- 02:00:18 [satakagi_]
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