<scribe> ScribeNick: dom
Joshue108: the goal is to grow an
accessibility community in XR, i.e. Augmented/Virtual
reality
... we want to bring together the accessibility community to
identify gaps and challenges in making XR accessible to people
with disabilities
... I've been working in accessibility for quite a long
time
... a strong background on usability for people with
disabilities
... in particular with user testing with people from
disabilities
... we're looking at all sort of things beyond XR
... Real-Time Communications
... this is funded by the EU WAI-Guide project
... Most of the work happening in this space on my side is in
APA WG and the Research Questions Task Force
... that's where of most of the XR work is happening in this
space
... Few topics for today:
... Overview of my existing work
... and would like to collect ideas on post-it notes
... or IRC
... want to brainstorm with people in the room
... I'm currently drafting user requirements for XR -
particular user needs for XR
... "use cases" is a bit loaded of a term
... which varies on a group by group basis
... here wanted to focus on user needs
... WHat kind of technical architecture is needed to support
accessibility?
... Accessibility is complicated in a 2D environment, nevermind
in 3D, surround sound, etc
... It's hard to communicate these requirements and how to put
them at an abstract level in an architecture
... we've been discussing this in APA
<Joshue108> https://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/wiki/Xaur_draft
Joshue108: The document we've
been working on is at https://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/wiki/Xaur_draft
... we drafted user needs and requirements for XR with a
modular approach
... as they relate to navigation, object semantics,
interactions
... I figure that was an interesting approach
... there has been a lot of existing research in this
space
... this modular approach would help address what an XR author
understand what they need to do for their app
... we came up with a draft checklist for things to do -
inspired by the Games ACcessibility Guidelines
... a big crossover between gaming and XR
<aboxhall_> http://gameaccessibilityguidelines.com/
Joshue108: APA aims to publish
XAUR as a non-normative WG Note
... we hope to have it useful as a jumping point to other
specifications
... We also started a series of media checkpoint
... not yet reviewed by APA
<Joshue108> https://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/wiki/Media_in_XR
Joshue108: based on MAUR
... (user requirements that relate to audio/video in
HTML)
... I've drafted a similar list for XR
... What are the current challenges? which will lead to our
brainstorming sessions
... In the general sense - lack of declarative semantics for XR
context
... we're looking at the accessibility object model primarily
designed for Web components but may be useful for XR too (or
not)
... there are issues with rendering environment &
performance
... we've looked at something called "modal muting" - if a user
isn't primarily visual, can we mute the visual modality and
still keep the rest of the experience?
... likewise for audio-based modality?
... this reduces bandwidth, CPU
... where will the needs be addressed
... how does this work relate to WCAG and the silver TF?
... likewise wrt Framework for ACcessible Specification
(FAST)
... how do we bring people together?
... we need people coming to our accessibility work from many
backgrounds
... incl people with expertise on every slice of that
topic
... we have the APA WG, the RQTF
... there is the Immersive Web WG
... the work on AOM & Web Components
... we need broader engagement from accessibility in this
space
<Zakim> CharlesHall, you wanted to discuss extent of scope
CharlesHall: question about scope
: there are emerging very peculiar technologies like Helio from
Magic Leap
... how far do we go?
Joshue108: my guess is that the
needs from user with disabilities doesn't change all that much
across that range
... the goal of WCAG and accessibility work is to enable people
with disabilities across all the spectrum
Janina: the answer we don't know
but we want to figure out
... we have a 9am Thursday session with Immersive Web WG
... I want to know what they plan to achieve in the short term
and what their longer term vision
... which will help us scope the work
... will be in APA WG
<aboxhall_> Schedule actually says Kashi for APA on Friday
Janina: Thu at 11am will be on
AOM and how it can help in this space
... and one more conversation on Friday at 11am in a discussion
with the TAG - one of the topics is rendering for XR
... we need semantics for accessibility
DavidF: IE in APA & AG
WGs
... we have one hand XR & Immersive Web
... XR feels visual vs IMmersive Web feels like more holistic
experiences (audio, haptic, ...)
... I'm working on an immersive platform to integrate all these
modalities to help with learning
Brandon: Editor of WebXR
spec
... we have a fair chunk of the IMmersive Web WG here today and
we will be at the Thursday meeting today
... happy to have questions today as well
... my goal is to listen and absorb the needs, hear what work
has been done, in guidelines and more
... and how we can better engage in this for developing
standards
... we understand the challenge of relying of WebGL from an
accessibility perspective
... any ideas that can help with that challenge is of interest
- I'm interested to hear about how AOM can help here
... One specific question related to "modal muting" - this is
very interesting esp as XR tends to be very
processing-intensive
... muting visual can help reducing hardware requirements
... a previous session on aria-virtualcontent was not related
to VR (contrary to what I expected)
... but one of the topics they mentioned was
fingerprinting
... I'm curious how much of a concern this may be
Alice: in particular AT detection
Joshue108: this is a fairly controversial question indeed
<sushrajaMSFT> +q talk about perhaps native support for glTF in the browser can give 3d content a dom for current accesibility APIs to function in XR and general 2d content
Joshue108: in terms of where we
are now: with a regular page, the DOM-based rendering enables
screen-readers interaction
... we're in a discovery phase - we can't tell you how to do it
yet
<Zakim> joanie, you wanted to encourage reaching out to AT/API devs with specific needs and questions as they come up.
Joanie: I'm the co-chair of the
ARIA WG
... with AT/API hat on
... there are only so many AT people that cover all platforms,
so we're very busy, but please come to us with questions
cabanier: work for Magic Leap on
the Helio browser
... there is WebXR & Immersive Web
... when the browser is part of your environment
... how can we improve accessibility given the new sensors (eye
tracking, spatial tracking)
... want to make immersive browser a first class citizen for
accessibility
Joshue108: this ties in to questions around Web of Things - how a person with disabilities could navigate a network of sensors, helped by e.g. AR
boaz: I haven't heard to hear about some accessibility experience design patterns or ideas for immersive experiences
<aboxhall_> https://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/wiki/Xaur_draft#XR_User_Needs
boaz: is there a collection of those?
DavidF: absolutely
Joshue108: the XAUR draft
contains our first cut at this
... there are questions of new laws of UX in XR
DavidF: for immersive education, there are many ways you can help people learn with the various modalities of immersive (haptics, stereoscopic sound, etc)
sushraja: on the Web, 3D suffers
from accessibility problems
... we heard about embedding accessibility in glTF
... we've explored bringing glTF to HTML - a breakout coming up
on this
... I think we need to look at the overall question on
accessible 3D
... glTF is a format for 3D models
<Zakim> bajones, you wanted to add one more note about considering mobility challenges
brandon: One positive example
worth bringing up - Google has a project called model-viewer, a
Web component to expose glTF models to the Web
... it has some accessibility support to expose an alt tag for
the model extracted from glTF
... as you explore the models, the aria-label updates to
express the perspectives of the viewer
... it's an interesting demo for exploration
... Separately, I often hear about the challenges of XR in
visual context
... but I don't hear as much discussed about mobility
challenges
... these challenges are unparalleled on the Web (vs WebGL has
already been challenging)
... e.g. if you put an item on a high shelf, or requires a lot
of movements in your XR experience
... which can be challenging both in the context of a
disability or lack of available space
... I think this challenge needs more thoughts put into
them
... how can we make these types of physical-world interactions
experience accessible?
Joshue108: this is typically
something we would put in an accessibility guideline
... it could be emulated via an assistive technology tool to
e.g. emulate crouching, running
... Clearly screen-reader accessibility is not the whole of
accessibility
... based on my experience though, what I want to focus is
where we can get the greatest RoI
DavidF: that's a reason we need user testing - using the assistive technologies used in the real world may apply in the virtual world as well
<Joshue108> +1 to that
<Zakim> klausw, you wanted to say opportunities for using spatial navigation
klaus: for WebXR specifically,
graphics is one aspect
... but WebXR can be used to track poses and spatial
tracking
... eG. could be used to help track where someone is pointing
at
... We've also looked at different layers of content: graphics
rendering + DOM (where accessibility could get plugged
in)
... it's a toolbox which used correctly we hope can help build
accessible experience, sometimes even ignoring the graphical
aspects
... We lack accessibility expertise in the WG
Charles: I want to bring XR
experience personalization to meet the user specific
needs
... e.g. for a wheelchair user put items lower down
... people with brightness-sensitivity with adjusted lighting,
etc
Joshue108: in XAUR, we've started
a series of checkpoints - informative ideas to make your XR
experience more accessible, grouped in categories
... based on the type of user needs
<aboxhall_> interesting to think about how media queries like prefers-dark-mode might apply
<Zakim> kip, you wanted to say that it may be interesting to explore ways that XR technology can increase accessibility of content not native to the medium
Kip: Mozilla, in Immersive Web
team
... I find it interesting that with the commodization of VR
hardware enables people to have access to device & sensors
that would otherwise be too expensive
... I would like to see how XR platforms and browsers could be
used to increase the accessibility of the platform
... e.G. through the lower cost of eye tracking
... or with problems linked to shaking - low-filter with VR
sensors could help
... accelerometer & gyroscope used to be expensive - mobile
changed it all as an analogy
aboxhall_: regarding use of AOM
<aboxhall_> 9https://github.com/WICG/aom/blob/gh-pages/explainer.md#virtual-accessibility-nodes
aboxhall_: the best fit would be for the virtual accessibility nodes
<bajones> https://github.com/WICG/aom/blob/gh-pages/explainer.md#virtual-accessibility-nodes
aboxhall_: on native platforms,
you can build accessible trees independent of the rest of the
app
... we want to enable that for the Web as well
... it does raise questions about AT detection
... which probably means prompting for user consent
... there are challenges: the vocabulary that can be expressed
with AOM is based on ARIA that isn't fit for XR
... it would be interesting how you would even consume these
semantics
... a screen reader assumes something that can be
linearized
... that is very challenging in the XR content
... you need a way to navigator XR nodes
Joshue108: wrt linearization
(i.e. reading one thing at a time, and discovering its
context)
... for an HTML table, a screen reader doesn't linearize as
much as allowing to interrogate the context and its
context
... this sounds like this model could apply to XR as well
aboxhall_: +1
Joshue108: happy to get follow up by email; do we need to set up a CG for some of these follow-up?
<CharlesHall> brainstorm / request: please add a design principle to the extent of “do not place people at risk”
Janina: I think it will be clearer at the end of the week after Thursday and Friday meeting
<Joshue108> joconnor@w3.org
Joshue108: the APA and the RQTF lists are good forums to track
Janina: I'm conflicted with 2
views: the better virtual reality gets, the closer to reality
it gets and those the rules of reality applies
... and then, I wouldn't want that limitations of reality keep
applying in virtual worlds
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.154 of Date: 2018/09/25 16:35:56 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: Irssi_ISO8601_Log_Text_Format (score 1.00) Succeeded: s/WCAG/WCAG and accessibility work/ Succeeded: s/will/will be/ Present: JohnRochford dom boaz CharlesHall ada CharlesL cabanier achraf LocMDao Roy Found ScribeNick: dom Inferring Scribes: dom WARNING: No "Topic:" lines found. WARNING: No date found! Assuming today. (Hint: Specify the W3C IRC log URL, and the date will be determined from that.) Or specify the date like this: <dbooth> Date: 12 Sep 2002 People with action items: WARNING: No "Topic: ..." lines found! Resulting HTML may have an empty (invalid) <ol>...</ol>. Explanation: "Topic: ..." lines are used to indicate the start of new discussion topics or agenda items, such as: <dbooth> Topic: Review of Amy's report WARNING: IRC log location not specified! (You can ignore this warning if you do not want the generated minutes to contain a link to the original IRC log.)[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]