IRC log of xra11y on 2019-09-18
Timestamps are in UTC.
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- logging to https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-xra11y-irc
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- 04:45:21 [Joshue108]
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- 04:45:44 [Zakim]
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- 04:53:00 [Joshue108]
- zakim, this will be XR Accessibility TPAC
- 04:53:01 [Zakim]
- ok, Joshue108
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- 05:27:57 [Joshue108]
- rrsagent, start meeting
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- I'm logging. I don't understand 'start meeting', Joshue108. Try /msg RRSAgent help
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- rrsagent, start meeting
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- I'm logging. I don't understand 'start meeting', Joshue108. Try /msg RRSAgent help
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- present+ JohnRochford
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- Present+
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- present+
- 05:32:15 [Manishearth]
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- Meeting: XR Accessibility
- 05:32:20 [dom]
- Chair: Joshue108
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- 05:34:16 [CharlesHall]
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- present+
- 05:34:36 [ada]
- present+
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- 05:34:52 [dom]
- ScribeNick: dom
- 05:35:13 [dom]
- Joshue108: the goal is to grow an accessibility community in XR, i.e. Augmented/Virtual reality
- 05:35:43 [aboxhall_]
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- 05:35:45 [dom]
- ... we want to bring together the accessibility community to identify gaps and challenges in making XR accessible to people with disabilities
- 05:35:47 [plh]
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- 05:35:54 [dom]
- ... I've been working in accessibility for quite a long time
- 05:35:59 [CharlesL]
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- 05:36:05 [dom]
- ... a strong background on usability for people with disabilities
- 05:36:09 [CharlesL]
- present+
- 05:36:36 [dom]
- ... in particular with user testing with people from disabilities
- 05:37:00 [dom]
- ... we're looking at all sort of things beyond XR
- 05:37:07 [dom]
- ... Real-Time Communications
- 05:37:13 [cabanier]
- present+
- 05:37:14 [dom]
- ... this is funded by the EU WAI-Guide project
- 05:37:39 [dom]
- ... Most of the work happening in this space on my side is in APA WG and the Research Questions Task Force
- 05:37:40 [kip]
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- 05:37:51 [dom]
- ... that's where of most of the XR work is happening in this space
- 05:38:03 [LocMDao]
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- present+
- 05:38:43 [dom]
- ... Few topics for today:
- 05:38:51 [dom]
- ... Overview of my existing work
- 05:38:58 [dom]
- ... and would like to collect ideas on post-it notes
- 05:39:00 [dom]
- ... or IRC
- 05:39:09 [dom]
- ... want to brainstorm with people in the room
- 05:39:31 [dom]
- ... I'm currently drafting user requirements for XR - particular user needs for XR
- 05:39:34 [LocMDao]
- Present+
- 05:39:38 [dom]
- ... "use cases" is a bit loaded of a term
- 05:39:47 [dom]
- ... which varies on a group by group basis
- 05:39:52 [dom]
- ... here wanted to focus on user needs
- 05:40:12 [dom]
- ... WHat kind of technical architecture is needed to support accessibility?
- 05:40:26 [dom]
- ... Accessibility is complicated in a 2D environment, nevermind in 3D, surround sound, etc
- 05:40:44 [dom]
- ... It's hard to communicate these requirements and how to put them at an abstract level in an architecture
- 05:40:50 [dom]
- ... we've been discussing this in APA
- 05:40:56 [Joshue108]
- https://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/wiki/Xaur_draft
- 05:41:04 [zhyut]
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- 05:41:06 [dom]
- ... The document we've been working on is at https://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/wiki/Xaur_draft
- 05:41:10 [Roy]
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- 05:41:15 [plamb_mozilla]
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- 05:41:16 [dom]
- ... we drafted user needs and requirements for XR with a modular approach
- 05:41:25 [dom]
- ... as they relate to navigation, object semantics, interactions
- 05:41:32 [dom]
- ... I figure that was an interesting approach
- 05:41:39 [dom]
- ... there has been a lot of existing research in this space
- 05:41:58 [dom]
- ... this modular approach would help address what an XR author understand what they need to do for their app
- 05:42:10 [dom]
- ... we came up with a draft checklist for things to do - inspired by the Games ACcessibility Guidelines
- 05:42:17 [dom]
- ... a big crossover between gaming and XR
- 05:42:28 [aboxhall_]
- http://gameaccessibilityguidelines.com/
- 05:42:37 [dom]
- ... APA aims to publish XAUR as a non-normative WG Note
- 05:42:50 [dom]
- ... we hope to have it useful as a jumping point to other specifications
- 05:43:03 [dom]
- ... We also started a series of media checkpoint
- 05:43:10 [dom]
- ... not yet reviewed by APA
- 05:43:13 [Joshue108]
- https://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/wiki/Media_in_XR
- 05:43:16 [dom]
- ... based on MAUR
- 05:43:31 [dom]
- ... (user requirements that relate to audio/video in HTML)
- 05:43:42 [dom]
- ... I've drafted a similar list for XR
- 05:44:16 [dom]
- ... What are the current challenges? which will lead to our brainstorming sessions
- 05:44:26 [CharlesHall]
- q+ for extent of scope
- 05:45:01 [susrhajaMSFT]
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- 05:45:13 [dom]
- ... In the general sense - lack of declarative semantics for XR context
- 05:45:18 [klausw]
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- 05:45:20 [bajones]
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- 05:45:37 [dom]
- ... we're looking at the accessibility object model primarily designed for Web components but may be useful for XR too (or not)
- 05:45:49 [dom]
- ... there are issues with rendering environment & performance
- 05:46:22 [dom]
- ... we've looked at something called "modal muting" - if a user isn't primarily visual, can we mute the visual modality and still keep the rest of the experience?
- 05:46:31 [dom]
- ... likewise for audio-based modality?
- 05:46:37 [dom]
- ... this reduces bandwidth, CPU
- 05:46:57 [dom]
- ... where will the needs be addressed
- 05:47:26 [dom]
- ... how does this work relate to WCAG and the silver TF?
- 05:47:35 [dom]
- ... likewise wrt Framework for ACcessible Specification (FAST)
- 05:47:43 [Joshue108]
- q?
- 05:48:14 [dom]
- ... how do we bring people together?
- 05:48:26 [dom]
- ... we need people coming to our accessibility work from many backgrounds
- 05:48:37 [dom]
- ... incl people with expertise on every slice of that topic
- 05:48:45 [dom]
- ... we have the APA WG, the RQTF
- 05:48:49 [dom]
- ... there is the Immersive Web WG
- 05:48:51 [bajones]
- q+
- 05:48:56 [dom]
- ... the work on AOM & Web Components
- 05:49:11 [dom]
- ... we need broader engagement from accessibility in this space
- 05:49:19 [joanie]
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- 05:49:30 [Joshue108]
- ack charl
- 05:49:30 [Zakim]
- CharlesHall, you wanted to discuss extent of scope
- 05:49:51 [madlaina]
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- 05:50:17 [dom]
- CharlesHall: question about scope : there are emerging very peculiar technologies like Helio from Magic Leap
- 05:50:20 [dom]
- ... how far do we go?
- 05:50:44 [dom]
- Joshue108: my guess is that the needs from user with disabilities doesn't change all that much across that range
- 05:50:57 [dom]
- ... the goal of WCAG is to enable people with disabilities across all the spectrum
- 05:51:06 [joanie]
- q+ To encourage reaching out to AT/API devs with specific needs and questions as they come up.
- 05:51:07 [dom]
- s/WCAG/WCAG and accessibility work/
- 05:51:24 [dom]
- Janina: the answer we don't know but we want to figure out
- 05:51:38 [dom]
- ... we have a 9am Thursday session with Immersive Web WG
- 05:51:55 [dom]
- ... I want to know what they plan to achieve in the short term and what their longer term vision
- 05:52:00 [dom]
- ... which will help us scope the work
- 05:52:15 [dom]
- ... will in APA WG
- 05:52:20 [dom]
- s/will/will be/
- 05:52:40 [aboxhall_]
- Schedule actually says Kashi for APA on Friday
- 05:52:57 [dom]
- Janina: Thu at 11am will be on AOM and how it can help in this space
- 05:53:13 [Lauriat_]
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- 05:53:18 [dom]
- ... and one more conversation on Friday at 11am in a discussion with the TAG - one of the topics is rendering for XR
- 05:53:31 [dom]
- ... we need semantics for accessibility
- 05:53:42 [dom]
- q+
- 05:54:14 [Joshue108]
- ack dom
- 05:54:25 [Roy]
- present+
- 05:56:02 [Joshue108]
- ack baj
- 05:56:06 [dom]
- DavidF: IE in APA & AG WGs
- 05:56:16 [dom]
- ... we have one hand XR & Immersive Web
- 05:56:23 [Lauriat]
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- 05:56:38 [dom]
- ... XR feels visual vs IMmersive Web feels like more holistic experiences (audio, haptic, ...)
- 05:56:52 [dom]
- ... I'm working on an immersive platform to integrate all these modalities to help with learning
- 05:57:22 [Joshue108]
- ack bran
- 05:57:38 [dom]
- Brandon: Editor of WebXR spec
- 05:57:46 [cabanier]
- q+
- 05:57:48 [ymatsuura]
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- 05:57:51 [dom]
- ... we have a fair chunk of the IMmersive Web WG here today and we will be at the Thursday meeting today
- 05:57:57 [dom]
- ... happy to have questions today as well
- 05:58:14 [dom]
- ... my goal is to listen and absorb the needs, hear what work has been done, in guidelines and more
- 05:58:29 [dom]
- ... and how we can better engage in this for developing standards
- 05:58:39 [dom]
- ... we understand the challenge of relying of WebGL from an accessibility perspective
- 05:59:05 [boaz]
- q+
- 05:59:12 [dom]
- ... any ideas that can help with that challenge is of interest - I'm interested to hear about how AOM can help here
- 05:59:40 [dom]
- ... One specific question related to "modal muting" - this is very interesting esp as XR tends to be very processing-intensive
- 05:59:57 [dom]
- ... muting visual can help reducing hardware requirements
- 05:59:58 [sushrajaMSFT]
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- 06:00:20 [dom]
- ... a previous session on aria-virtualcontent was not related to VR (contrary to what I expected)
- 06:00:31 [dom]
- ... but one of the topics they mentioned was fingerprinting
- 06:00:55 [dom]
- ... I'm curious how much of a concern this may be
- 06:01:16 [dom]
- Alice: in particular AT detection
- 06:01:30 [dom]
- Joshue108: this is a fairly controversial question indeed
- 06:01:53 [sushrajaMSFT]
- +q talk about perhaps native support for glTF in the browser can give 3d content a dom for current accesibility APIs to function in XR and general 2d content
- 06:01:59 [dom]
- ... in terms of where we are now: with a regular page, the DOM-based rendering enables screen-readers interaction
- 06:02:07 [dom]
- q+ sushrajaMSFT
- 06:02:34 [dom]
- Joshue108: we're in a discovery phase - we can't tell you how to do it yet
- 06:02:47 [Joshue108]
- ack joanie
- 06:02:47 [Zakim]
- joanie, you wanted to encourage reaching out to AT/API devs with specific needs and questions as they come up.
- 06:02:57 [dom]
- Joanie: I'm the co-chair of the ARIA WG
- 06:03:09 [dom]
- ... with AT/API hat on
- 06:03:52 [dom]
- ... there are only so many AT people that cover all platforms, so we're very busy, but please come to us with questions
- 06:03:58 [Joshue108]
- ack cab
- 06:04:07 [bajones]
- q+ to add one more note about considering mobility challenges
- 06:04:11 [dom]
- cabanier: work for Magic Leap on the Helio browser
- 06:04:21 [dom]
- ... there is WebXR & Immersive Web
- 06:04:30 [dom]
- ... when the browser is part of your environment
- 06:04:43 [dom]
- ... how can we improve accessibility given the new sensors (eye tracking, spatial tracking)
- 06:04:56 [dom]
- ... want to make immersive browser a first class citizen for accessibility
- 06:05:11 [klausw]
- q+ to say opportunities for using spatial navigation
- 06:05:24 [dom]
- Joshue108: this ties in to questions around Web of Things - how a person with disabilities could navigate a network of sensors, helped by e.g. AR
- 06:05:31 [Joshue108]
- ack boaz
- 06:05:54 [dom]
- boaz: I haven't heard to hear about some accessibility experience design patterns or ideas for immersive experiences
- 06:06:04 [aboxhall_]
- https://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/wiki/Xaur_draft#XR_User_Needs
- 06:06:06 [dom]
- ... is there a collection of those?
- 06:06:12 [dom]
- DavidF: absolutely
- 06:07:07 [dom]
- Joshue108: the XAUR draft contains our first cut at this
- 06:07:12 [aboxhall_]
- q+ to talk about AOM, semantics and ATs
- 06:07:31 [dom]
- ... there are questions of new laws of UX in XR
- 06:07:55 [Joshue108]
- q?
- 06:08:33 [dom]
- DavidF: for immersive education, there are many ways you can help people learn with the various modalities of immersive (haptics, stereoscopic sound, etc)
- 06:09:07 [madlaina]
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- 06:09:40 [dom]
- ack sushrajaMSFT
- 06:09:42 [Joshue108]
- ack sush
- 06:10:18 [dom]
- sushraja: on the Web, 3D suffers from accessibility problems
- 06:10:36 [dom]
- ... we heard about embedding accessibility in glTF
- 06:10:56 [dom]
- ... we've explored bringing glTF to HTML - a breakout coming up on this
- 06:11:21 [dom]
- ... I think we need to look at the overall question on accessible 3D
- 06:11:32 [dom]
- ... glTF is a format for 3D models
- 06:11:40 [dom]
- ack bajones
- 06:11:40 [Zakim]
- bajones, you wanted to add one more note about considering mobility challenges
- 06:11:42 [Joshue108]
- ack braj
- 06:12:17 [dom]
- brandon: One positive example worth bringing up - Google has a project called model-viewer, a Web component to expose glTF models to the Web
- 06:12:35 [dom]
- ... it has some accessibility support to expose an alt tag for the model extracted from glTF
- 06:12:53 [dom]
- ... as you explore the models, the aria-label updates to express the perspectives of the viewer
- 06:13:02 [dom]
- ... it's an interesting demo for exploration
- 06:13:29 [dom]
- ... Separately, I often hear about the challenges of XR in visual context
- 06:13:37 [dom]
- ... but I don't hear as much discussed about mobility challenges
- 06:13:57 [dom]
- ... these challenges are unparalleled on the Web (vs WebGL has already been challenging)
- 06:14:13 [dom]
- ... e.g. if you put an item on a high shelf, or requires a lot of movements in your XR experience
- 06:14:26 [dom]
- ... which can be challenging both in the context of a disability or lack of available space
- 06:14:41 [dom]
- ... I think this challenge needs more thoughts put into them
- 06:15:07 [dom]
- ... how can we make these types of physical-world interactions experience accessible?
- 06:15:24 [dom]
- Joshue108: this is typically something we would put in an accessibility guideline
- 06:15:44 [dom]
- ... it could be emulated via an assistive technology tool to e.g. emulate crouching, running
- 06:15:56 [dom]
- ... Clearly screen-reader accessibility is not the whole of accessibility
- 06:16:16 [dom]
- ... based on my experience though, what I want to focus is where we can get the greatest RoI
- 06:16:22 [Joshue108]
- q?
- 06:16:28 [dom]
- q+ David
- 06:16:43 [CharlesL]
- q+
- 06:16:48 [kip]
- q+ To say that it may be interesting to explore ways that XR technology can increase accessibility of content not native to the medium
- 06:16:59 [dom]
- DavidF: that's a reason we need user testing - using the assistive technologies used in the real world may apply in the virtual world as well
- 06:17:02 [Joshue108]
- +1 to that
- 06:17:04 [Joshue108]
- ack klaus
- 06:17:04 [Zakim]
- klausw, you wanted to say opportunities for using spatial navigation
- 06:17:21 [dom]
- klaus: for WebXR specifically, graphics is one aspect
- 06:17:32 [dom]
- ... but WebXR can be used to track poses and spatial tracking
- 06:17:44 [dom]
- ... eG. could be used to help track where someone is pointing at
- 06:18:10 [dom]
- ... We've also looked at different layers of content: graphics rendering + DOM (where accessibility could get plugged in)
- 06:18:27 [aboxhall_]
- q-
- 06:18:30 [dom]
- ... it's a toolbox which used correctly we hope can help build accessible experience, sometimes even ignoring the graphical aspects
- 06:18:43 [dom]
- ... We lack accessibility expertise in the WG
- 06:19:00 [dom]
- ack CharlesL
- 06:19:03 [dom]
- q- David
- 06:19:04 [Joshue108]
- ack Charl
- 06:19:19 [dom]
- Charles: I want to bring XR experience personalization to meet the user specific needs
- 06:19:31 [dom]
- ... e.g. for a wheelchair user put items lower down
- 06:19:45 [dom]
- ... people with brightness-sensitivity with adjusted lighting, etc
- 06:19:46 [Roy]
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- 06:20:16 [dom]
- Joshue108: in XAUR, we've started a series of checkpoints - informative ideas to make your XR experience more accessible, grouped in categories
- 06:20:24 [dom]
- ... based on the type of user needs
- 06:20:30 [aboxhall_]
- interesting to think about how media queries like prefers-dark-mode might apply
- 06:21:11 [Joshue108]
- ack ki
- 06:21:13 [Zakim]
- kip, you wanted to say that it may be interesting to explore ways that XR technology can increase accessibility of content not native to the medium
- 06:21:24 [dom]
- Kip: Mozilla, in Immersive Web team
- 06:21:52 [dom]
- ... I find it interesting that with the commodization of VR hardware enables people to have access to device & sensors that would otherwise be too expensive
- 06:22:08 [dom]
- ... I would like to see how XR platforms and browsers could be used to increase the accessibility of the platform
- 06:22:16 [dom]
- ... e.G. through the lower cost of eye tracking
- 06:22:42 [dom]
- ... or with problems linked to shaking - low-filter with VR sensors could help
- 06:23:22 [dom]
- ... accelerometer & gyroscope used to be expensive - mobile changed it all as an analogy
- 06:23:44 [dom]
- aboxhall_: regarding use of AOM
- 06:23:46 [aboxhall_]
- 9https://github.com/WICG/aom/blob/gh-pages/explainer.md#virtual-accessibility-nodes
- 06:23:53 [dom]
- ... the best fit would be for the virtual accessibility nodes
- 06:24:09 [bajones]
- https://github.com/WICG/aom/blob/gh-pages/explainer.md#virtual-accessibility-nodes
- 06:24:12 [dom]
- ... on native platforms, you can build accessible trees independent of the rest of the app
- 06:24:19 [dom]
- ... we want to enable that for the Web as well
- 06:24:26 [dom]
- ... it does raise questions about AT detection
- 06:24:34 [dom]
- ... which probably means prompting for user consent
- 06:24:52 [dom]
- ... there are challenges: the vocabulary that can be expressed with AOM is based on ARIA that isn't fit for XR
- 06:25:08 [dom]
- ... it would be interesting how you would even consume these semantics
- 06:25:17 [dom]
- ... a screen reader assumes something that can be linearized
- 06:25:22 [dom]
- ... that is very challenging in the XR content
- 06:25:28 [dom]
- ... you need a way to navigator XR nodes
- 06:25:58 [dom]
- Joshue108: wrt linearization (i.e. reading one thing at a time, and discovering its context)
- 06:26:18 [dom]
- ... for an HTML table, a screen reader doesn't linearize as much as allowing to interrogate the context and its context
- 06:26:29 [dom]
- ... this sounds like this model could apply to XR as well
- 06:26:41 [dom]
- aboxhall_: +1
- 06:26:44 [Joshue108]
- q?
- 06:27:29 [dom]
- Joshue108: happy to get follow up by email; do we need to set up a CG for some of these follow-up?
- 06:27:36 [CharlesHall]
- brainstorm / request: please add a design principle to the extent of “do not place people at risk”
- 06:27:43 [dom]
- Janina: I think it will be clearer at the end of the week after Thursday and Friday meeting
- 06:28:07 [Joshue108]
- joconnor@w3.org
- 06:28:09 [dom]
- Joshue108: the APA and the RQTF lists are good forums to track
- 06:28:49 [dom]
- Janina: I'm conflicted with 2 views: the better virtual reality gets, the closer to reality it gets and those the rules of reality applies
- 06:29:08 [dom]
- ... and then, I wouldn't want that limitations of reality keep applying in virtual worlds
- 06:29:11 [dom]
- RRSAgent, draft minutes
- 06:29:11 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-xra11y-minutes.html dom
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