IRC log of xra11y on 2019-09-18

Timestamps are in UTC.

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logging to https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-xra11y-irc
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logging to https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-xra11y-irc
04:45:21 [Joshue108]
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04:45:44 [Zakim]
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04:53:00 [Joshue108]
zakim, this will be XR Accessibility TPAC
04:53:01 [Zakim]
ok, Joshue108
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05:27:57 [Joshue108]
rrsagent, start meeting
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I'm logging. I don't understand 'start meeting', Joshue108. Try /msg RRSAgent help
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rrsagent, start meeting
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I'm logging. I don't understand 'start meeting', Joshue108. Try /msg RRSAgent help
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rrsagent, make logs public
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present+ JohnRochford
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05:32:08 [dom]
Present+
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present+
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Meeting: XR Accessibility
05:32:20 [dom]
Chair: Joshue108
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present+
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present+
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05:34:52 [dom]
ScribeNick: dom
05:35:13 [dom]
Joshue108: the goal is to grow an accessibility community in XR, i.e. Augmented/Virtual reality
05:35:43 [aboxhall_]
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05:35:45 [dom]
... we want to bring together the accessibility community to identify gaps and challenges in making XR accessible to people with disabilities
05:35:47 [plh]
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05:35:54 [dom]
... I've been working in accessibility for quite a long time
05:35:59 [CharlesL]
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05:36:05 [dom]
... a strong background on usability for people with disabilities
05:36:09 [CharlesL]
present+
05:36:36 [dom]
... in particular with user testing with people from disabilities
05:37:00 [dom]
... we're looking at all sort of things beyond XR
05:37:07 [dom]
... Real-Time Communications
05:37:13 [cabanier]
present+
05:37:14 [dom]
... this is funded by the EU WAI-Guide project
05:37:39 [dom]
... Most of the work happening in this space on my side is in APA WG and the Research Questions Task Force
05:37:40 [kip]
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05:37:51 [dom]
... that's where of most of the XR work is happening in this space
05:38:03 [LocMDao]
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05:38:41 [achraf]
present+
05:38:43 [dom]
... Few topics for today:
05:38:51 [dom]
... Overview of my existing work
05:38:58 [dom]
... and would like to collect ideas on post-it notes
05:39:00 [dom]
... or IRC
05:39:09 [dom]
... want to brainstorm with people in the room
05:39:31 [dom]
... I'm currently drafting user requirements for XR - particular user needs for XR
05:39:34 [LocMDao]
Present+
05:39:38 [dom]
... "use cases" is a bit loaded of a term
05:39:47 [dom]
... which varies on a group by group basis
05:39:52 [dom]
... here wanted to focus on user needs
05:40:12 [dom]
... WHat kind of technical architecture is needed to support accessibility?
05:40:26 [dom]
... Accessibility is complicated in a 2D environment, nevermind in 3D, surround sound, etc
05:40:44 [dom]
... It's hard to communicate these requirements and how to put them at an abstract level in an architecture
05:40:50 [dom]
... we've been discussing this in APA
05:40:56 [Joshue108]
https://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/wiki/Xaur_draft
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05:41:06 [dom]
... The document we've been working on is at https://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/wiki/Xaur_draft
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05:41:16 [dom]
... we drafted user needs and requirements for XR with a modular approach
05:41:25 [dom]
... as they relate to navigation, object semantics, interactions
05:41:32 [dom]
... I figure that was an interesting approach
05:41:39 [dom]
... there has been a lot of existing research in this space
05:41:58 [dom]
... this modular approach would help address what an XR author understand what they need to do for their app
05:42:10 [dom]
... we came up with a draft checklist for things to do - inspired by the Games ACcessibility Guidelines
05:42:17 [dom]
... a big crossover between gaming and XR
05:42:28 [aboxhall_]
http://gameaccessibilityguidelines.com/
05:42:37 [dom]
... APA aims to publish XAUR as a non-normative WG Note
05:42:50 [dom]
... we hope to have it useful as a jumping point to other specifications
05:43:03 [dom]
... We also started a series of media checkpoint
05:43:10 [dom]
... not yet reviewed by APA
05:43:13 [Joshue108]
https://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/wiki/Media_in_XR
05:43:16 [dom]
... based on MAUR
05:43:31 [dom]
... (user requirements that relate to audio/video in HTML)
05:43:42 [dom]
... I've drafted a similar list for XR
05:44:16 [dom]
... What are the current challenges? which will lead to our brainstorming sessions
05:44:26 [CharlesHall]
q+ for extent of scope
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05:45:13 [dom]
... In the general sense - lack of declarative semantics for XR context
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05:45:37 [dom]
... we're looking at the accessibility object model primarily designed for Web components but may be useful for XR too (or not)
05:45:49 [dom]
... there are issues with rendering environment & performance
05:46:22 [dom]
... we've looked at something called "modal muting" - if a user isn't primarily visual, can we mute the visual modality and still keep the rest of the experience?
05:46:31 [dom]
... likewise for audio-based modality?
05:46:37 [dom]
... this reduces bandwidth, CPU
05:46:57 [dom]
... where will the needs be addressed
05:47:26 [dom]
... how does this work relate to WCAG and the silver TF?
05:47:35 [dom]
... likewise wrt Framework for ACcessible Specification (FAST)
05:47:43 [Joshue108]
q?
05:48:14 [dom]
... how do we bring people together?
05:48:26 [dom]
... we need people coming to our accessibility work from many backgrounds
05:48:37 [dom]
... incl people with expertise on every slice of that topic
05:48:45 [dom]
... we have the APA WG, the RQTF
05:48:49 [dom]
... there is the Immersive Web WG
05:48:51 [bajones]
q+
05:48:56 [dom]
... the work on AOM & Web Components
05:49:11 [dom]
... we need broader engagement from accessibility in this space
05:49:19 [joanie]
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05:49:30 [Joshue108]
ack charl
05:49:30 [Zakim]
CharlesHall, you wanted to discuss extent of scope
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05:50:17 [dom]
CharlesHall: question about scope : there are emerging very peculiar technologies like Helio from Magic Leap
05:50:20 [dom]
... how far do we go?
05:50:44 [dom]
Joshue108: my guess is that the needs from user with disabilities doesn't change all that much across that range
05:50:57 [dom]
... the goal of WCAG is to enable people with disabilities across all the spectrum
05:51:06 [joanie]
q+ To encourage reaching out to AT/API devs with specific needs and questions as they come up.
05:51:07 [dom]
s/WCAG/WCAG and accessibility work/
05:51:24 [dom]
Janina: the answer we don't know but we want to figure out
05:51:38 [dom]
... we have a 9am Thursday session with Immersive Web WG
05:51:55 [dom]
... I want to know what they plan to achieve in the short term and what their longer term vision
05:52:00 [dom]
... which will help us scope the work
05:52:15 [dom]
... will in APA WG
05:52:20 [dom]
s/will/will be/
05:52:40 [aboxhall_]
Schedule actually says Kashi for APA on Friday
05:52:57 [dom]
Janina: Thu at 11am will be on AOM and how it can help in this space
05:53:13 [Lauriat_]
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05:53:18 [dom]
... and one more conversation on Friday at 11am in a discussion with the TAG - one of the topics is rendering for XR
05:53:31 [dom]
... we need semantics for accessibility
05:53:42 [dom]
q+
05:54:14 [Joshue108]
ack dom
05:54:25 [Roy]
present+
05:56:02 [Joshue108]
ack baj
05:56:06 [dom]
DavidF: IE in APA & AG WGs
05:56:16 [dom]
... we have one hand XR & Immersive Web
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05:56:38 [dom]
... XR feels visual vs IMmersive Web feels like more holistic experiences (audio, haptic, ...)
05:56:52 [dom]
... I'm working on an immersive platform to integrate all these modalities to help with learning
05:57:22 [Joshue108]
ack bran
05:57:38 [dom]
Brandon: Editor of WebXR spec
05:57:46 [cabanier]
q+
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05:57:51 [dom]
... we have a fair chunk of the IMmersive Web WG here today and we will be at the Thursday meeting today
05:57:57 [dom]
... happy to have questions today as well
05:58:14 [dom]
... my goal is to listen and absorb the needs, hear what work has been done, in guidelines and more
05:58:29 [dom]
... and how we can better engage in this for developing standards
05:58:39 [dom]
... we understand the challenge of relying of WebGL from an accessibility perspective
05:59:05 [boaz]
q+
05:59:12 [dom]
... any ideas that can help with that challenge is of interest - I'm interested to hear about how AOM can help here
05:59:40 [dom]
... One specific question related to "modal muting" - this is very interesting esp as XR tends to be very processing-intensive
05:59:57 [dom]
... muting visual can help reducing hardware requirements
05:59:58 [sushrajaMSFT]
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06:00:20 [dom]
... a previous session on aria-virtualcontent was not related to VR (contrary to what I expected)
06:00:31 [dom]
... but one of the topics they mentioned was fingerprinting
06:00:55 [dom]
... I'm curious how much of a concern this may be
06:01:16 [dom]
Alice: in particular AT detection
06:01:30 [dom]
Joshue108: this is a fairly controversial question indeed
06:01:53 [sushrajaMSFT]
+q talk about perhaps native support for glTF in the browser can give 3d content a dom for current accesibility APIs to function in XR and general 2d content
06:01:59 [dom]
... in terms of where we are now: with a regular page, the DOM-based rendering enables screen-readers interaction
06:02:07 [dom]
q+ sushrajaMSFT
06:02:34 [dom]
Joshue108: we're in a discovery phase - we can't tell you how to do it yet
06:02:47 [Joshue108]
ack joanie
06:02:47 [Zakim]
joanie, you wanted to encourage reaching out to AT/API devs with specific needs and questions as they come up.
06:02:57 [dom]
Joanie: I'm the co-chair of the ARIA WG
06:03:09 [dom]
... with AT/API hat on
06:03:52 [dom]
... there are only so many AT people that cover all platforms, so we're very busy, but please come to us with questions
06:03:58 [Joshue108]
ack cab
06:04:07 [bajones]
q+ to add one more note about considering mobility challenges
06:04:11 [dom]
cabanier: work for Magic Leap on the Helio browser
06:04:21 [dom]
... there is WebXR & Immersive Web
06:04:30 [dom]
... when the browser is part of your environment
06:04:43 [dom]
... how can we improve accessibility given the new sensors (eye tracking, spatial tracking)
06:04:56 [dom]
... want to make immersive browser a first class citizen for accessibility
06:05:11 [klausw]
q+ to say opportunities for using spatial navigation
06:05:24 [dom]
Joshue108: this ties in to questions around Web of Things - how a person with disabilities could navigate a network of sensors, helped by e.g. AR
06:05:31 [Joshue108]
ack boaz
06:05:54 [dom]
boaz: I haven't heard to hear about some accessibility experience design patterns or ideas for immersive experiences
06:06:04 [aboxhall_]
https://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/wiki/Xaur_draft#XR_User_Needs
06:06:06 [dom]
... is there a collection of those?
06:06:12 [dom]
DavidF: absolutely
06:07:07 [dom]
Joshue108: the XAUR draft contains our first cut at this
06:07:12 [aboxhall_]
q+ to talk about AOM, semantics and ATs
06:07:31 [dom]
... there are questions of new laws of UX in XR
06:07:55 [Joshue108]
q?
06:08:33 [dom]
DavidF: for immersive education, there are many ways you can help people learn with the various modalities of immersive (haptics, stereoscopic sound, etc)
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06:09:40 [dom]
ack sushrajaMSFT
06:09:42 [Joshue108]
ack sush
06:10:18 [dom]
sushraja: on the Web, 3D suffers from accessibility problems
06:10:36 [dom]
... we heard about embedding accessibility in glTF
06:10:56 [dom]
... we've explored bringing glTF to HTML - a breakout coming up on this
06:11:21 [dom]
... I think we need to look at the overall question on accessible 3D
06:11:32 [dom]
... glTF is a format for 3D models
06:11:40 [dom]
ack bajones
06:11:40 [Zakim]
bajones, you wanted to add one more note about considering mobility challenges
06:11:42 [Joshue108]
ack braj
06:12:17 [dom]
brandon: One positive example worth bringing up - Google has a project called model-viewer, a Web component to expose glTF models to the Web
06:12:35 [dom]
... it has some accessibility support to expose an alt tag for the model extracted from glTF
06:12:53 [dom]
... as you explore the models, the aria-label updates to express the perspectives of the viewer
06:13:02 [dom]
... it's an interesting demo for exploration
06:13:29 [dom]
... Separately, I often hear about the challenges of XR in visual context
06:13:37 [dom]
... but I don't hear as much discussed about mobility challenges
06:13:57 [dom]
... these challenges are unparalleled on the Web (vs WebGL has already been challenging)
06:14:13 [dom]
... e.g. if you put an item on a high shelf, or requires a lot of movements in your XR experience
06:14:26 [dom]
... which can be challenging both in the context of a disability or lack of available space
06:14:41 [dom]
... I think this challenge needs more thoughts put into them
06:15:07 [dom]
... how can we make these types of physical-world interactions experience accessible?
06:15:24 [dom]
Joshue108: this is typically something we would put in an accessibility guideline
06:15:44 [dom]
... it could be emulated via an assistive technology tool to e.g. emulate crouching, running
06:15:56 [dom]
... Clearly screen-reader accessibility is not the whole of accessibility
06:16:16 [dom]
... based on my experience though, what I want to focus is where we can get the greatest RoI
06:16:22 [Joshue108]
q?
06:16:28 [dom]
q+ David
06:16:43 [CharlesL]
q+
06:16:48 [kip]
q+ To say that it may be interesting to explore ways that XR technology can increase accessibility of content not native to the medium
06:16:59 [dom]
DavidF: that's a reason we need user testing - using the assistive technologies used in the real world may apply in the virtual world as well
06:17:02 [Joshue108]
+1 to that
06:17:04 [Joshue108]
ack klaus
06:17:04 [Zakim]
klausw, you wanted to say opportunities for using spatial navigation
06:17:21 [dom]
klaus: for WebXR specifically, graphics is one aspect
06:17:32 [dom]
... but WebXR can be used to track poses and spatial tracking
06:17:44 [dom]
... eG. could be used to help track where someone is pointing at
06:18:10 [dom]
... We've also looked at different layers of content: graphics rendering + DOM (where accessibility could get plugged in)
06:18:27 [aboxhall_]
q-
06:18:30 [dom]
... it's a toolbox which used correctly we hope can help build accessible experience, sometimes even ignoring the graphical aspects
06:18:43 [dom]
... We lack accessibility expertise in the WG
06:19:00 [dom]
ack CharlesL
06:19:03 [dom]
q- David
06:19:04 [Joshue108]
ack Charl
06:19:19 [dom]
Charles: I want to bring XR experience personalization to meet the user specific needs
06:19:31 [dom]
... e.g. for a wheelchair user put items lower down
06:19:45 [dom]
... people with brightness-sensitivity with adjusted lighting, etc
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06:20:16 [dom]
Joshue108: in XAUR, we've started a series of checkpoints - informative ideas to make your XR experience more accessible, grouped in categories
06:20:24 [dom]
... based on the type of user needs
06:20:30 [aboxhall_]
interesting to think about how media queries like prefers-dark-mode might apply
06:21:11 [Joshue108]
ack ki
06:21:13 [Zakim]
kip, you wanted to say that it may be interesting to explore ways that XR technology can increase accessibility of content not native to the medium
06:21:24 [dom]
Kip: Mozilla, in Immersive Web team
06:21:52 [dom]
... I find it interesting that with the commodization of VR hardware enables people to have access to device & sensors that would otherwise be too expensive
06:22:08 [dom]
... I would like to see how XR platforms and browsers could be used to increase the accessibility of the platform
06:22:16 [dom]
... e.G. through the lower cost of eye tracking
06:22:42 [dom]
... or with problems linked to shaking - low-filter with VR sensors could help
06:23:22 [dom]
... accelerometer & gyroscope used to be expensive - mobile changed it all as an analogy
06:23:44 [dom]
aboxhall_: regarding use of AOM
06:23:46 [aboxhall_]
9https://github.com/WICG/aom/blob/gh-pages/explainer.md#virtual-accessibility-nodes
06:23:53 [dom]
... the best fit would be for the virtual accessibility nodes
06:24:09 [bajones]
https://github.com/WICG/aom/blob/gh-pages/explainer.md#virtual-accessibility-nodes
06:24:12 [dom]
... on native platforms, you can build accessible trees independent of the rest of the app
06:24:19 [dom]
... we want to enable that for the Web as well
06:24:26 [dom]
... it does raise questions about AT detection
06:24:34 [dom]
... which probably means prompting for user consent
06:24:52 [dom]
... there are challenges: the vocabulary that can be expressed with AOM is based on ARIA that isn't fit for XR
06:25:08 [dom]
... it would be interesting how you would even consume these semantics
06:25:17 [dom]
... a screen reader assumes something that can be linearized
06:25:22 [dom]
... that is very challenging in the XR content
06:25:28 [dom]
... you need a way to navigator XR nodes
06:25:58 [dom]
Joshue108: wrt linearization (i.e. reading one thing at a time, and discovering its context)
06:26:18 [dom]
... for an HTML table, a screen reader doesn't linearize as much as allowing to interrogate the context and its context
06:26:29 [dom]
... this sounds like this model could apply to XR as well
06:26:41 [dom]
aboxhall_: +1
06:26:44 [Joshue108]
q?
06:27:29 [dom]
Joshue108: happy to get follow up by email; do we need to set up a CG for some of these follow-up?
06:27:36 [CharlesHall]
brainstorm / request: please add a design principle to the extent of “do not place people at risk”
06:27:43 [dom]
Janina: I think it will be clearer at the end of the week after Thursday and Friday meeting
06:28:07 [Joshue108]
joconnor@w3.org
06:28:09 [dom]
Joshue108: the APA and the RQTF lists are good forums to track
06:28:49 [dom]
Janina: I'm conflicted with 2 views: the better virtual reality gets, the closer to reality it gets and those the rules of reality applies
06:29:08 [dom]
... and then, I wouldn't want that limitations of reality keep applying in virtual worlds
06:29:11 [dom]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
06:29:11 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-xra11y-minutes.html dom
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