01:46:34 RRSAgent has joined #xra11y 01:46:34 logging to https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-xra11y-irc 01:46:36 rrsagent, make logs public 04:43:02 RRSAgent has joined #xra11y 04:43:02 logging to https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-xra11y-irc 04:45:21 Joshue108 has joined #xra11y 04:45:44 Zakim has joined #xra11y 04:53:00 zakim, this will be XR Accessibility TPAC 04:53:01 ok, Joshue108 05:20:26 cabanier has joined #xra11y 05:27:57 rrsagent, start meeting 05:27:57 I'm logging. I don't understand 'start meeting', Joshue108. Try /msg RRSAgent help 05:28:31 rrsagent, start meeting 05:28:31 I'm logging. I don't understand 'start meeting', Joshue108. Try /msg RRSAgent help 05:29:05 rrsagent, make logs public 05:30:28 dom has joined #xra11y 05:31:37 JohnRochford has joined #xra11y 05:31:52 present+ JohnRochford 05:32:06 boaz has joined #xra11y 05:32:08 Present+ 05:32:15 present+ 05:32:15 Manishearth has joined #xra11y 05:32:17 Meeting: XR Accessibility 05:32:20 Chair: Joshue108 05:32:21 horiuchi has joined #xra11y 05:32:59 alexturn has joined #xra11y 05:33:12 kzms2 has joined #xra11y 05:33:13 Jared_ has joined #xra11y 05:33:35 ada has joined #xra11y 05:33:37 RRSAgent, make log public 05:34:16 CharlesHall has joined #xra11y 05:34:27 present+ 05:34:36 present+ 05:34:39 jroque has joined #xra11y 05:34:52 ScribeNick: dom 05:35:13 Joshue108: the goal is to grow an accessibility community in XR, i.e. Augmented/Virtual reality 05:35:43 aboxhall_ has joined #xra11y 05:35:45 ... we want to bring together the accessibility community to identify gaps and challenges in making XR accessible to people with disabilities 05:35:47 plh has joined #xra11y 05:35:54 ... I've been working in accessibility for quite a long time 05:35:59 CharlesL has joined #xra11y 05:36:05 ... a strong background on usability for people with disabilities 05:36:09 present+ 05:36:36 ... in particular with user testing with people from disabilities 05:37:00 ... we're looking at all sort of things beyond XR 05:37:07 ... Real-Time Communications 05:37:13 present+ 05:37:14 ... this is funded by the EU WAI-Guide project 05:37:39 ... Most of the work happening in this space on my side is in APA WG and the Research Questions Task Force 05:37:40 kip has joined #xra11y 05:37:51 ... that's where of most of the XR work is happening in this space 05:38:03 LocMDao has joined #xra11y 05:38:21 atai has joined #xra11y 05:38:31 achraf has joined #xra11y 05:38:41 present+ 05:38:43 ... Few topics for today: 05:38:51 ... Overview of my existing work 05:38:58 ... and would like to collect ideas on post-it notes 05:39:00 ... or IRC 05:39:09 ... want to brainstorm with people in the room 05:39:31 ... I'm currently drafting user requirements for XR - particular user needs for XR 05:39:34 Present+ 05:39:38 ... "use cases" is a bit loaded of a term 05:39:47 ... which varies on a group by group basis 05:39:52 ... here wanted to focus on user needs 05:40:12 ... WHat kind of technical architecture is needed to support accessibility? 05:40:26 ... Accessibility is complicated in a 2D environment, nevermind in 3D, surround sound, etc 05:40:44 ... It's hard to communicate these requirements and how to put them at an abstract level in an architecture 05:40:50 ... we've been discussing this in APA 05:40:56 https://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/wiki/Xaur_draft 05:41:04 zhyut has joined #xra11y 05:41:06 ... The document we've been working on is at https://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/wiki/Xaur_draft 05:41:10 Roy has joined #xra11y 05:41:15 plamb_mozilla has joined #xra11y 05:41:16 ... we drafted user needs and requirements for XR with a modular approach 05:41:25 ... as they relate to navigation, object semantics, interactions 05:41:32 ... I figure that was an interesting approach 05:41:39 ... there has been a lot of existing research in this space 05:41:58 ... this modular approach would help address what an XR author understand what they need to do for their app 05:42:10 ... we came up with a draft checklist for things to do - inspired by the Games ACcessibility Guidelines 05:42:17 ... a big crossover between gaming and XR 05:42:28 http://gameaccessibilityguidelines.com/ 05:42:37 ... APA aims to publish XAUR as a non-normative WG Note 05:42:50 ... we hope to have it useful as a jumping point to other specifications 05:43:03 ... We also started a series of media checkpoint 05:43:10 ... not yet reviewed by APA 05:43:13 https://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/wiki/Media_in_XR 05:43:16 ... based on MAUR 05:43:31 ... (user requirements that relate to audio/video in HTML) 05:43:42 ... I've drafted a similar list for XR 05:44:16 ... What are the current challenges? which will lead to our brainstorming sessions 05:44:26 q+ for extent of scope 05:45:01 susrhajaMSFT has joined #xra11y 05:45:13 ... In the general sense - lack of declarative semantics for XR context 05:45:18 klausw has joined #xra11y 05:45:20 bajones has joined #xra11y 05:45:37 ... we're looking at the accessibility object model primarily designed for Web components but may be useful for XR too (or not) 05:45:49 ... there are issues with rendering environment & performance 05:46:22 ... we've looked at something called "modal muting" - if a user isn't primarily visual, can we mute the visual modality and still keep the rest of the experience? 05:46:31 ... likewise for audio-based modality? 05:46:37 ... this reduces bandwidth, CPU 05:46:57 ... where will the needs be addressed 05:47:26 ... how does this work relate to WCAG and the silver TF? 05:47:35 ... likewise wrt Framework for ACcessible Specification (FAST) 05:47:43 q? 05:48:14 ... how do we bring people together? 05:48:26 ... we need people coming to our accessibility work from many backgrounds 05:48:37 ... incl people with expertise on every slice of that topic 05:48:45 ... we have the APA WG, the RQTF 05:48:49 ... there is the Immersive Web WG 05:48:51 q+ 05:48:56 ... the work on AOM & Web Components 05:49:11 ... we need broader engagement from accessibility in this space 05:49:19 joanie has joined #xra11y 05:49:30 ack charl 05:49:30 CharlesHall, you wanted to discuss extent of scope 05:49:51 madlaina has joined #xra11y 05:50:17 CharlesHall: question about scope : there are emerging very peculiar technologies like Helio from Magic Leap 05:50:20 ... how far do we go? 05:50:44 Joshue108: my guess is that the needs from user with disabilities doesn't change all that much across that range 05:50:57 ... the goal of WCAG is to enable people with disabilities across all the spectrum 05:51:06 q+ To encourage reaching out to AT/API devs with specific needs and questions as they come up. 05:51:07 s/WCAG/WCAG and accessibility work/ 05:51:24 Janina: the answer we don't know but we want to figure out 05:51:38 ... we have a 9am Thursday session with Immersive Web WG 05:51:55 ... I want to know what they plan to achieve in the short term and what their longer term vision 05:52:00 ... which will help us scope the work 05:52:15 ... will in APA WG 05:52:20 s/will/will be/ 05:52:40 Schedule actually says Kashi for APA on Friday 05:52:57 Janina: Thu at 11am will be on AOM and how it can help in this space 05:53:13 Lauriat_ has joined #xra11y 05:53:18 ... and one more conversation on Friday at 11am in a discussion with the TAG - one of the topics is rendering for XR 05:53:31 ... we need semantics for accessibility 05:53:42 q+ 05:54:14 ack dom 05:54:25 present+ 05:56:02 ack baj 05:56:06 DavidF: IE in APA & AG WGs 05:56:16 ... we have one hand XR & Immersive Web 05:56:23 Lauriat has joined #xra11y 05:56:38 ... XR feels visual vs IMmersive Web feels like more holistic experiences (audio, haptic, ...) 05:56:52 ... I'm working on an immersive platform to integrate all these modalities to help with learning 05:57:22 ack bran 05:57:38 Brandon: Editor of WebXR spec 05:57:46 q+ 05:57:48 ymatsuura has joined #xra11y 05:57:51 ... we have a fair chunk of the IMmersive Web WG here today and we will be at the Thursday meeting today 05:57:57 ... happy to have questions today as well 05:58:14 ... my goal is to listen and absorb the needs, hear what work has been done, in guidelines and more 05:58:29 ... and how we can better engage in this for developing standards 05:58:39 ... we understand the challenge of relying of WebGL from an accessibility perspective 05:59:05 q+ 05:59:12 ... any ideas that can help with that challenge is of interest - I'm interested to hear about how AOM can help here 05:59:40 ... One specific question related to "modal muting" - this is very interesting esp as XR tends to be very processing-intensive 05:59:57 ... muting visual can help reducing hardware requirements 05:59:58 sushrajaMSFT has joined #xra11y 06:00:20 ... a previous session on aria-virtualcontent was not related to VR (contrary to what I expected) 06:00:31 ... but one of the topics they mentioned was fingerprinting 06:00:55 ... I'm curious how much of a concern this may be 06:01:16 Alice: in particular AT detection 06:01:30 Joshue108: this is a fairly controversial question indeed 06:01:53 +q talk about perhaps native support for glTF in the browser can give 3d content a dom for current accesibility APIs to function in XR and general 2d content 06:01:59 ... in terms of where we are now: with a regular page, the DOM-based rendering enables screen-readers interaction 06:02:07 q+ sushrajaMSFT 06:02:34 Joshue108: we're in a discovery phase - we can't tell you how to do it yet 06:02:47 ack joanie 06:02:47 joanie, you wanted to encourage reaching out to AT/API devs with specific needs and questions as they come up. 06:02:57 Joanie: I'm the co-chair of the ARIA WG 06:03:09 ... with AT/API hat on 06:03:52 ... there are only so many AT people that cover all platforms, so we're very busy, but please come to us with questions 06:03:58 ack cab 06:04:07 q+ to add one more note about considering mobility challenges 06:04:11 cabanier: work for Magic Leap on the Helio browser 06:04:21 ... there is WebXR & Immersive Web 06:04:30 ... when the browser is part of your environment 06:04:43 ... how can we improve accessibility given the new sensors (eye tracking, spatial tracking) 06:04:56 ... want to make immersive browser a first class citizen for accessibility 06:05:11 q+ to say opportunities for using spatial navigation 06:05:24 Joshue108: this ties in to questions around Web of Things - how a person with disabilities could navigate a network of sensors, helped by e.g. AR 06:05:31 ack boaz 06:05:54 boaz: I haven't heard to hear about some accessibility experience design patterns or ideas for immersive experiences 06:06:04 https://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/wiki/Xaur_draft#XR_User_Needs 06:06:06 ... is there a collection of those? 06:06:12 DavidF: absolutely 06:07:07 Joshue108: the XAUR draft contains our first cut at this 06:07:12 q+ to talk about AOM, semantics and ATs 06:07:31 ... there are questions of new laws of UX in XR 06:07:55 q? 06:08:33 DavidF: for immersive education, there are many ways you can help people learn with the various modalities of immersive (haptics, stereoscopic sound, etc) 06:09:07 madlaina has joined #xra11y 06:09:40 ack sushrajaMSFT 06:09:42 ack sush 06:10:18 sushraja: on the Web, 3D suffers from accessibility problems 06:10:36 ... we heard about embedding accessibility in glTF 06:10:56 ... we've explored bringing glTF to HTML - a breakout coming up on this 06:11:21 ... I think we need to look at the overall question on accessible 3D 06:11:32 ... glTF is a format for 3D models 06:11:40 ack bajones 06:11:40 bajones, you wanted to add one more note about considering mobility challenges 06:11:42 ack braj 06:12:17 brandon: One positive example worth bringing up - Google has a project called model-viewer, a Web component to expose glTF models to the Web 06:12:35 ... it has some accessibility support to expose an alt tag for the model extracted from glTF 06:12:53 ... as you explore the models, the aria-label updates to express the perspectives of the viewer 06:13:02 ... it's an interesting demo for exploration 06:13:29 ... Separately, I often hear about the challenges of XR in visual context 06:13:37 ... but I don't hear as much discussed about mobility challenges 06:13:57 ... these challenges are unparalleled on the Web (vs WebGL has already been challenging) 06:14:13 ... e.g. if you put an item on a high shelf, or requires a lot of movements in your XR experience 06:14:26 ... which can be challenging both in the context of a disability or lack of available space 06:14:41 ... I think this challenge needs more thoughts put into them 06:15:07 ... how can we make these types of physical-world interactions experience accessible? 06:15:24 Joshue108: this is typically something we would put in an accessibility guideline 06:15:44 ... it could be emulated via an assistive technology tool to e.g. emulate crouching, running 06:15:56 ... Clearly screen-reader accessibility is not the whole of accessibility 06:16:16 ... based on my experience though, what I want to focus is where we can get the greatest RoI 06:16:22 q? 06:16:28 q+ David 06:16:43 q+ 06:16:48 q+ To say that it may be interesting to explore ways that XR technology can increase accessibility of content not native to the medium 06:16:59 DavidF: that's a reason we need user testing - using the assistive technologies used in the real world may apply in the virtual world as well 06:17:02 +1 to that 06:17:04 ack klaus 06:17:04 klausw, you wanted to say opportunities for using spatial navigation 06:17:21 klaus: for WebXR specifically, graphics is one aspect 06:17:32 ... but WebXR can be used to track poses and spatial tracking 06:17:44 ... eG. could be used to help track where someone is pointing at 06:18:10 ... We've also looked at different layers of content: graphics rendering + DOM (where accessibility could get plugged in) 06:18:27 q- 06:18:30 ... it's a toolbox which used correctly we hope can help build accessible experience, sometimes even ignoring the graphical aspects 06:18:43 ... We lack accessibility expertise in the WG 06:19:00 ack CharlesL 06:19:03 q- David 06:19:04 ack Charl 06:19:19 Charles: I want to bring XR experience personalization to meet the user specific needs 06:19:31 ... e.g. for a wheelchair user put items lower down 06:19:45 ... people with brightness-sensitivity with adjusted lighting, etc 06:19:46 Roy has joined #xra11y 06:20:16 Joshue108: in XAUR, we've started a series of checkpoints - informative ideas to make your XR experience more accessible, grouped in categories 06:20:24 ... based on the type of user needs 06:20:30 interesting to think about how media queries like prefers-dark-mode might apply 06:21:11 ack ki 06:21:13 kip, you wanted to say that it may be interesting to explore ways that XR technology can increase accessibility of content not native to the medium 06:21:24 Kip: Mozilla, in Immersive Web team 06:21:52 ... I find it interesting that with the commodization of VR hardware enables people to have access to device & sensors that would otherwise be too expensive 06:22:08 ... I would like to see how XR platforms and browsers could be used to increase the accessibility of the platform 06:22:16 ... e.G. through the lower cost of eye tracking 06:22:42 ... or with problems linked to shaking - low-filter with VR sensors could help 06:23:22 ... accelerometer & gyroscope used to be expensive - mobile changed it all as an analogy 06:23:44 aboxhall_: regarding use of AOM 06:23:46 9https://github.com/WICG/aom/blob/gh-pages/explainer.md#virtual-accessibility-nodes 06:23:53 ... the best fit would be for the virtual accessibility nodes 06:24:09 https://github.com/WICG/aom/blob/gh-pages/explainer.md#virtual-accessibility-nodes 06:24:12 ... on native platforms, you can build accessible trees independent of the rest of the app 06:24:19 ... we want to enable that for the Web as well 06:24:26 ... it does raise questions about AT detection 06:24:34 ... which probably means prompting for user consent 06:24:52 ... there are challenges: the vocabulary that can be expressed with AOM is based on ARIA that isn't fit for XR 06:25:08 ... it would be interesting how you would even consume these semantics 06:25:17 ... a screen reader assumes something that can be linearized 06:25:22 ... that is very challenging in the XR content 06:25:28 ... you need a way to navigator XR nodes 06:25:58 Joshue108: wrt linearization (i.e. reading one thing at a time, and discovering its context) 06:26:18 ... for an HTML table, a screen reader doesn't linearize as much as allowing to interrogate the context and its context 06:26:29 ... this sounds like this model could apply to XR as well 06:26:41 aboxhall_: +1 06:26:44 q? 06:27:29 Joshue108: happy to get follow up by email; do we need to set up a CG for some of these follow-up? 06:27:36 brainstorm / request: please add a design principle to the extent of “do not place people at risk” 06:27:43 Janina: I think it will be clearer at the end of the week after Thursday and Friday meeting 06:28:07 joconnor@w3.org 06:28:09 Joshue108: the APA and the RQTF lists are good forums to track 06:28:49 Janina: I'm conflicted with 2 views: the better virtual reality gets, the closer to reality it gets and those the rules of reality applies 06:29:08 ... and then, I wouldn't want that limitations of reality keep applying in virtual worlds 06:29:11 RRSAgent, draft minutes 06:29:11 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-xra11y-minutes.html dom 06:34:24 CharlesL has joined #xra11y 06:35:42 horiuchi has joined #xra11y 06:54:51 Roy has joined #xra11y 06:59:12 plh has joined #xra11y 07:13:29 horiuchi has joined #xra11y 07:20:10 horiuchi has joined #xra11y 07:23:18 dom has joined #xra11y 07:26:44 horiuchi_ has joined #xra11y 07:28:20 dom has left #xra11y 07:31:19 horiuchi has joined #xra11y 07:34:12 plh has joined #xra11y 07:45:25 atai has joined #xra11y 08:00:52 atai1 has joined #xra11y 08:04:00 CharlesL has joined #xra11y 08:23:31 horiuchi has joined #xra11y 08:26:23 Roy has joined #xra11y 08:27:24 Zakim has left #xra11y 08:52:05 CharlesL has left #xra11y 09:34:16 horiuchi has joined #xra11y