23:49:39 RRSAgent has joined #wot 23:49:39 logging to https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-wot-irc 23:49:47 kTakano has joined #wot 23:50:19 matsuda has joined #wot 23:50:40 rrsagent, this meeting spans midnight 23:50:53 dezell has joined #wot 23:51:05 yoshiaki has joined #wot 23:51:11 present+ 23:51:12 meeting: Web of Things F2F, TPAC 2019 23:51:16 yofukami has joined #wot 23:51:22 rrsagent, set logs public 23:51:31 chair: McCool 23:52:08 present+ 23:53:05 tksuzuki has joined #wot 23:57:23 minami has joined #wot 00:00:00 kaz has joined #wot 00:00:33 ryuichi has joined #wot 00:01:53 minobu has joined #wot 00:02:37 horiuchi has joined #wot 00:02:55 Zakim has joined #wot 00:02:58 hendo has joined #wot 00:03:21 scribenick: dsr 00:04:36 sebastian has joined #wot 00:04:41 kawaguch has joined #wot 00:05:05 Michael does some agenda bashing including ideas fo future F2F locations. 00:05:38 Topic: Use cases and requirements 00:06:09 hEndo_ has joined #wot 00:06:29 hirata has joined #wot 00:06:31 McCool: The TAG were looking for the WG’s use cases and requirements work, this doesn’t existing in a formal way at present. We should rectify that. 00:07:24 Shows the next steps slide for the Munich WoT workshop 00:07:41 This has 3 columns: update, next and new 00:08:10 The WG Charter proposal relates to the Workshop results 00:09:18 One change is that following input from the Decentralised Identifier WG, McCool has renamed the corresponding work item from Identity to Identifier management. 00:10:05 McCool: any other ideas for the charter? 00:10:27 sebastian: we heard some comments about our approach to eventing … 00:10:29 -> https://www.w3.org/2019/Talks/TPAC/2019-09_WoT-AC.pdf McCool's slides 00:11:04 q+ 00:11:06 … some thoughts about testing in respect to eventing 00:11:35 McCool: do we do testing or just interoperability 00:12:01 We have some testing gaps, including eventing 00:12:50 … some discussion about testing toolis 00:13:02 s/toolis/tools 00:13:28 ack kaz 00:14:16 Kaz: one question is how we report the output of the plugfests 00:15:07 Kaz: yesterday’s voice assistant breakout touched upon relation to WoT 00:15:29 McCool: we don’t yet have a work item on accessibility 00:15:42 s/one question is/2 points. first,/ 00:15:53 s/yesterday's/2nd, yesterday's/ 00:16:41 dsr: this is an opportunity to bring in some accessibility experts into the WG 00:16:54 present+ Kaz_Ashimura, Michael_McCool, Toru_Kawaguchi, Kunihiko_Toumura, Ryuichi_Matsukura, Tetsushi_Matsuda, Takahisa_Suzuki, Dave_Raggett, Daniel_Peintner, Ege_Korkan 00:17:49 Topic: Ideation 00:18:59 present+ David_Ezell, Arnaud_LeHors, Sebastian_Kaebisch, Yoshiaki_Fukami, Suguru_Washio, Taki_Kamiya, Tomoaki_Mizushima, Hayato_Shinmachi 00:19:16 Slides on possible use cases for 2nd generation of WoT standard 00:19:34 Presented by NRI 00:20:26 (slides to be archived later) 00:20:33 inamori_ has joined #wot 00:21:07 Japanese Web community have been thinking about ideas for future WoT standards 00:21:19 present+ Minobu_Abe, Takuki_Nankou, Shinjiro_Urata, Kaname_Takano, Diego_Ferreiro, Keisuke_Minami, Hiroki_Endo, Nonoka_Jinushi, Hiroshi_Fujisawa, Takeshi_Yamada, Tetsuhiko_Hirata, Shinya_Abe 00:21:40 s/Ideation/Ideathon/ 00:21:56 (NRI = Nomura Research Institute) 00:22:28 @@@slides tbd 00:22:49 rrsagetn, make log public 00:22:54 rrsagent, make log public 00:22:55 An “Ideathon” took place on 23-24 August 2019 with 22 participants 00:23:02 s/rrsagetn, make log public// 00:23:07 rrsagent, draft minutes 00:23:07 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-wot-minutes.html kaz 00:23:43 Slides full of detailed content (very small print) 00:24:52 One example is a “Poop checker” 00:25:32 s/fo future/for future/ 00:25:38 This is a medical diagnosis application 00:26:11 i/Michael does some/topic: Logistics and Agenda discussion/ 00:26:48 and comes with a list of potential devices, e.g. toilet with sensors, smart speaker etc. 00:27:21 and some requirements related to the WoT WG charter 00:29:02 Michael: that reminds me that we have yet to address orchestration across multiple devices 00:29:32 2nd use case involving a camping car 00:30:03 (mobile home) 00:31:02 present+ Ken_Ebert, Phil_Archer 00:35:24 inamori_ has joined #wot 00:35:59 dsr has joined #wot 00:36:19 q? 00:36:39 3rd use case is a security robot, e.g. to inform people when someone is breaking into their home 00:36:40 hfuji has joined #wot 00:36:44 q+ 00:36:49 This is an autonomous vehicle … 00:36:56 the use case also includes wearable devices 00:37:01 the use case also includes wearable devices 00:37:04 ack seb 00:37:11 3rd use case is a security robot, e.g. to inform people when someone is breaking into their home 00:37:16 McCool has joined #wot 00:38:19 This use case has requirements in respect to: link relation types, interoperability profile, complex interactions, discovery, privacy and security 00:38:37 horiuchi_ has joined #wot 00:39:13 q? 00:39:35 Dave: I am involved in a new European research project (GATEKEEPER) on applying WoT to healthcare, including early diagnosis of medical conditions 00:40:14 McCool: we are especially interested in new requirements 00:40:41 some discussion on linking types 00:41:39 McCool: is there a way to ask the workshop participants in case we have questions? 00:41:48 Answer: yes 00:41:52 (via email) 00:42:48 McCool: I will shortly talk about a template for use case descriptions for our work item on use cases and requirements 00:43:48 In the context of these slides - what columns we expect 00:44:17 hfuji has joined #wot 00:44:38 The slides have idea (title), overview (short description), devices involved and data (what data is involved) 00:45:18 sebastian: I like this general approach, but also like preconditions, the goal to be reached and the expected outcome for each use case 00:47:25 Are we describing a problem only or a problem and a solution to that problem 00:48:18 slides providing a summary of the ideathon 00:49:04 shouqun has joined #wot 00:49:23 (text too small to see from back of room) 00:53:29 One challenge is who will pay for sensors in public spaces 00:53:49 The method of trading data, … 00:54:15 An issue of how we can set up databases 00:54:57 Role of local government and secure management of data 00:55:35 Any questions? [no] 00:56:08 ryuichi has joined #wot 00:56:11 [round of applause in thanks for the NRI input] 00:56:45 Michael shows slides on use cases and requirements 00:57:04 @@@slides tbd 00:57:51 The TAG asked us to prepare more formal use cases and requirements. Alan Bird further suggested we should note the business justification for use cases. 00:58:18 We also need to ensure that the use cases have the consensus of the WG 00:58:40 dape_ has joined #wot 00:58:44 We further need to do this before starting significant work 00:58:44 hirata has joined #wot 00:59:27 Where work has already started, we need to go back and document the use cases that justify the work 00:59:48 Michael proposes some ideas for templates for use cases 01:00:51 The suggestion that we start with a concise user story - as a type of user, I want to achieve some goal so that some thing is realised 01:01:36 e.g. as a developer I want ease of use so that I can develop WoT apps faster 01:01:59 We need to define categories of users 01:02:44 We should classify the use cases into those that are accepted, those that are proposed and awaiting a decision, and those that are rejected 01:02:53 q+ 01:03:16 We can start by brain storming some some possible requirements 01:03:28 and then decide which ones are crucial 01:04:04 We should try to define the problem but not the technical solution 01:04:42 q? 01:04:45 ack dezell 01:05:24 dezell: rejected is a little harsh as a term, use cases should be archived even if not deemed important 01:06:10 Michael: some use cases could be out of scope 01:06:26 Similar approach is needed for the WG’s design decisions 01:06:41 We need a clear process and record of decisions 01:07:29 Which decisions were accepted and which were rejected 01:07:44 q+ 01:07:46 sebastian: what kind of use cases would we want? 01:08:24 Michael: my view is that use cases should be user oriented, e.g. as a businessman, I want to … 01:09:09 Dave: we should emphasise use cases that motivate companies to adopt and exploit the web of things 01:09:43 -> https://w3c.github.io/mmi/usecases/Overview.html mmi use cases 01:10:09 Michael: the issue tracker tends to be a little free form, and we need to extract and formalise our descriptions of use cases, requirements and design decisions 01:10:28 ack k 01:11:03 kaz: agree it would be nicer to have a compiled document (and provides an example above) 01:11:26 Michael slows his ideas for how we could apply this to WoT profiles as an example of a template structure 01:11:35 Suguru has joined #wot 01:12:03 [link?] 01:12:36 -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-profile/blob/master/REQUIREMENTS.md Michael's initial proposal 01:13:22 Michael talks us through the proposed structure 01:13:59 s|/w3c/|/mmcool/| 01:14:51 Michael: for example as a home user, I want to know that a given device will work in my home environment 01:16:23 The next step is to turn this into an actual template 01:16:50 Kaz: we could start with this and use github issues for managing use cases 01:17:41 Any comments on this template? [no] 01:17:43 s/managing use cases/managing use cases, but we need to generate a compiled use cases document in the end./ 01:17:52 sebastian: what is the timeline for this work? 01:19:01 q+ to ask about process and reference 01:19:31 Michael: I think by March, we should have this in a good shape 01:19:38 hendo__ has joined #wot 01:20:28 Dave:do you expect to have both use cases and requirements and design decisions by March? 01:20:41 Michael: there’s actually four things … 01:21:25 Dave: another point is how we can relate this to our horizontal review plan 01:21:27 horiuchi has joined #wot 01:21:47 Michael: we need to get such review early and often 01:22:36 q- 01:22:48 Dave: we need to ask for review when we have work in a good enough state for reviewers to justify their time 01:23:36 -> https://w3c.github.io/mmi/usecases/Overview.html MMI use case document as another example 01:23:49 hEndo has joined #wot 01:23:51 McCool has joined #wot 01:23:59 -> https://w3c.github.io/mmi/usecases/Overview.html MMI use case document as another example 01:24:37 Michael shows the MMI WG’s WG Note for their use cases 01:25:15 These seem to lack a clear structure 01:26:06 ryuichi has joined #wot 01:26:35 The motivation has some questions in italics from a template 01:27:02 s/These seem to lack a clear structure// 01:27:07 q+ 01:27:33 Michael: the use case needs to clarify the time sequencing in the story 01:27:56 dezell: how do you differentiate a use case from a use story? 01:28:12 s/use story/user story 01:29:00 horiuchi has joined #wot 01:29:00 Michael: a use case is more formal 01:29:23 dezell: I am happy whichever way you go, but please be consistent 01:30:23 minobu has joined #wot 01:30:27 http://w3c.github.io/wot/ucr-doc/ 01:30:43 Dave: we could talk to the TAG, and ask in the chairs list for comments and input on the process and templates for use cases 01:31:35 Michael: we should allocate further time for this in future calls 01:32:05 Kaz: do we want to set up a task force to guide this? 01:32:22 horiuchi has joined #wot 01:32:36 Michael: let’s discuss that in the next call as we’re out of time now 01:33:05 [break till 10:45] 01:33:11 rrsagent, draft minutes 01:33:11 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-wot-minutes.html kaz 01:33:22 yoshiaki has joined #wot 01:35:16 yoshiaki has joined #wot 01:42:33 naomi has joined #wot 01:45:26 Shinya has joined #wot 01:46:11 kana has joined #wot 01:47:26 dlongley has joined #wot 01:47:54 dlongley has left #wot 01:48:08 dlongley has joined #wot 01:48:57 kTakano has joined #wot 01:51:56 dezell has joined #wot 01:51:56 ryuichi has joined #wot 01:52:04 scribenick: dezell 01:52:16 Topic: WoT Testing Framework 01:52:28 Topic: WoT Testing Framework 01:52:42 presenter: Ege Korkan, Siemens AG 01:53:24 Shinya has joined #wot 01:53:30 ege: working move the playground to the JSON-LD model 01:54:17 minobu has joined #wot 01:54:47 See: https://github.com/thingweb/thingweb-playground 01:54:55 @@@ slides tbd 01:55:02 (Note: presentation will be linked from the agenda. 01:55:29 Mizushima has joined #wot 01:56:07 ege: new features - live validation, saving TD as a gist online, filling the editor with an example TD 01:56:15 ...: a gist must always be valid. 01:56:26 q+ 01:57:00 q? 01:57:08 horiuchi has joined #wot 01:57:25 kaz: thought there would be some automatic saving. 01:57:50 xyzzy: there is some confusion on this point, it's more of the capability to share. 01:58:09 McCool: we also need to "feed" some repository. 01:58:52 s/xyzzy:/daniel:/ 01:59:22 ege: the idea is to make creating a new TD simple and quick. 01:59:27 hirata has joined #wot 01:59:54 McCool: a selection of templates might be a good idea. 02:00:25 Suguru has joined #wot 02:00:33 ege: more new features - optional assertion testing on front-end, importing a TD, better error messages. 02:01:18 McCool: error could link back to TD to explain what failed. 02:01:40 ege: (demo of the page for Thing Description Playground) 02:01:48 http://plugfest.thingweb.io/playground/ 02:02:05 present+ Eric_Siow, Yefeng_Xia 02:02:42 horiuchi_ has joined #wot 02:02:46 ...: there is the ability to enter an example invalid TD to check operations. 02:03:19 McCool: we need to see all the errors, not just the most recent. 02:04:09 naomi has joined #wot 02:04:10 ege: the tool will automatically validate the TD, with line/column. 02:04:12 naomi has joined #wot 02:05:02 ...: "gistify" allows you to name and save the contents. But you must be logged in to save. 02:06:04 https://gist.github.com/ 02:07:07 ...: so you can save these TDs without resorting to external storage. 02:07:43 McCool: It would be great to have this automatic checking available for people to use with their own repos (on checkin). 02:08:10 ...: "integrated tooling for git." 02:08:43 ege: question - do we want to make the set of "gists" somehow official? 02:09:13 s/thought there would be some automatic saving./do you mean all the TD submission would be automatically validated every time using some plugin (like pr-preview)?/ 02:10:15 McCool: we should talk about whether we want TD integrated into regular W3C git repositories. 02:11:09 present+ Shouqun_Liu 02:11:10 dsr: there's a lot of complexity about using W3C logos or making broad claims about compatibility. 02:11:27 ...: reports of compliance are always based on trust (today). 02:11:53 McCool: but it would be helpful to know that trust is backed up with tests. 02:12:18 sebastian: can you query all tests related to a TD (gist). 02:12:33 s/)\./)\?/ 02:13:12 ege: you can explore your gists, but there's no direct query - github doesn't know a gist from other things that you put in there. 02:14:10 ...: we could improve things by allowing >only< gists. 02:15:29 ...: future work - should we have ... 1) script based validation as an npm package, 2) a server to send TDs and get validation results. 02:16:31 McCool: a separate server would be helpful for those who don't want to install Node. 02:16:58 ege: behavior testing: 02:17:20 ...: - tool to fuzz test all interactions of the TD 02:17:42 ...: - test bench is being updated to generate .csv 02:18:47 ...: Also ability to test external things against TD (e.g., messages are schema valid) 02:19:58 McCool: this discussion raises the issue "are properties static"? 02:20:56 ege: deployment options - need opinions: 02:21:04 ...: - as an online server 02:21:17 ...: - installing locally (own machine) 02:21:31 ...: - testing from own browser (limited to HTTP) 02:22:18 s/server/server, allows only online exposed things/ 02:22:54 s/machine/machine, installation overhead/ 02:23:58 McCool: seems there are two cases - testing real devices and testing simulated devices. 02:24:02 ...: need to do both. 02:24:22 ...: "browser" option is a convenience for getting started. 02:25:37 daniel: first and third are the same in terms of the UI, whereas the second is potentially different. 02:26:40 ege: consumer testing (consumes messages) 02:26:57 minami has joined #wot 02:27:36 ...: clinet-data-schema, client-data-schema-accept-extras, client-data-schema-no-extras, client-uri-template 02:28:24 ...: given a TD, npm can create a Virtual Thing: can generate a report, or be hosted online on Thingweb. 02:29:18 ...: important to identify TDs that cover many features, making sure of a thorough client test. 02:30:27 McCool: would like to use virtual things for testing, but also monitor traffic between a real thing and real client and diagnose the health. 02:31:09 Suguru_ has joined #wot 02:32:29 ege: behavior testing: break them 02:32:52 ...: - safety testing (invalid inputs to exposed thing, returning invalid data to consumers) 02:33:34 ...: - security testing (pen-testing based on security information, invalid security information on ETs) 02:33:45 s/exposed thing/Exposed Thing/ 02:34:43 McCool: any questions? 02:34:50 Answer [no]. 02:35:05 scribe: TK 02:35:10 scribenick: taki 02:35:20 horiuchi has joined #wot 02:36:17 Mizushima has joined #wot 02:36:36 Sebastian: wants to discuss WoT Web Presence. 02:36:58 Sebastian: first set of deliverables are ready soon. 02:37:16 Sebastian: I met lots of poeple who are interested. 02:37:44 Sebastian: It is difficult to provide something for them to read and learn, such as introduction. 02:38:01 i/wants to discuss WoT Web Presence/topic: Marketing/ 02:38:08 Sebastian: I am contributing to other consortia. OPC-UA, eClass, etc. 02:38:11 naomi has joined #wot 02:38:14 naomi has joined #wot 02:38:38 Sebastian: easiest way is first to fix our web page. 02:38:43 Mizushima_ has joined #wot 02:38:48 Sebastian: we have plenty of web pages now on W3C site. 02:39:05 Sebastian: Not very helpful for newcomes. 02:39:14 Sebastian: they do not care IG/WG etc. 02:39:17 Suguru has joined #wot 02:39:27 McCool: entry point is important. 02:39:43 McCool: other pages can be elsewhere. 02:40:12 Eric: WoT is messed up, complicated multiple IoT/ 02:40:23 s/entry point/the WoT landing page as the entry point/ 02:40:42 Eric: people not engineer want to deploy smart city, etc. 02:40:59 Eric: will hire consultant. 02:41:13 Eric: They look at W3C WoT side. it does not resonate now. 02:41:23 Eric: business people control budget. 02:41:33 Eric: cannot only cater engineer. 02:41:46 Eric: have to communicate to business people who control budget. 02:42:03 Eric: need to think abuot customer base. 02:42:56 Eric: slide show / video show that describes problem statement (e.g. smart city). Up-level it, script it so that business people can understand. 02:43:15 McCool: up-level does not necessarily mean abstract. still needs to be concrete. 02:43:26 McCool: we need concrete examples. 02:43:40 Eric: up-level means speaking to architect. 02:44:06 Sebastian: Next question. where are pain points now? 02:44:14 Sebastian: three different web pages. 02:44:34 Sebastian: newcomers think what are the relationship? 02:44:45 McCool: entry point should describe that. 02:44:55 Daniel: the pages should look the same. 02:45:12 McCool: they can search and get to sub-page. 02:45:26 McCool: we can re-design URI 02:45:31 s/URI/UI/ 02:45:50 Daniel: home button etc. UI needs to be consistent. 02:45:56 McCool: normalization. 02:46:07 McCool: and there is structure issue. 02:46:12 Suguru_ has joined #wot 02:46:49 McCool: navigation issue is one. 02:47:07 Suguru has joined #wot 02:47:37 McCool: we need volunteers. 02:47:42 hiata has joined #wot 02:47:51 McCool: to fix navigation problem immediately. 02:47:51 q+ 02:48:06 Daniel: three different pages now. 02:48:24 McCool: longer term, we need to clean up. 02:48:36 ack dape 02:49:00 Dave: there are short-time and long-time issues. 02:49:30 Daniel: current status, goals and how to get there. we need to think about this. 02:50:03 Sebastian: we are staring a new charter. need to think about branding. 02:50:26 Eric: How do you explain DID to laymen. 02:50:58 horiuchi has joined #wot 02:51:06 Eric: I have my own "close line". 02:51:24 Eric: to explain complex thing to laymen. 02:51:35 Eric: I can help in this effort. 02:52:02 David: domains are important. 02:52:33 Dave: top-level entry page is up to us. 02:52:52 David: It used to be cleverer before. 02:53:27 McCool: what resource does W3C have for help? 02:53:32 Dave: very little. 02:54:15 Dave: use cases is more important than navigation issue. 02:54:32 McCool: Do we want to create marketing TF? 02:54:46 Sebastian: We used to have marketing TF before. 02:55:08 McCool: It is a short-time focused project. 02:55:24 McCool: Dave and Kaz can initially help on landing page issue. 02:55:52 Daniel: we tried before, but there were lots of restrictions by W3C. 02:56:01 Dave: I can help on getting permission. 02:56:02 hirata has joined #wot 02:56:12 Dave: W3C has flat structure. 02:56:24 Dave: each group has independence. 02:56:29 q+ 02:56:53 Dave: we first need to think about function. 02:57:15 Dave: then think about what do we want to say. 02:57:57 McCool: let's separate short-term and long-term tasks. 02:58:07 McCool: Landing page content is long-term. 02:58:43 naomi has joined #wot 02:58:46 Mizushima has joined #wot 02:59:03 McCool: there are also medium term tasks such as launching landing pages. 02:59:25 Kaz: we need to think about concrete use cases and requirements about this. 02:59:46 -> https://www.w3.org/2019/html/ html wg page 03:00:04 Kaz: HTML WG has automatically generated page, for example. I am not proposing anything. 03:00:31 Kaz: Our WG page and IG page can be automatic. 03:00:41 Daniel: we should reduce complexity. 03:00:53 Daniel: from business people's perspective. 03:01:00 Kaz: I am not suggeting anything. 03:01:08 Kaz: We need to clarify issues. 03:01:38 McCool: we can incrementally change instead of radical big change. 03:01:51 s/issues/issues and requirements, i.e., what kind of information should be included in which page/ 03:01:58 Dave: we need to regularly invest time. 03:02:11 McCool: let's think about action items. 03:02:28 McCool: marketing TF sill the end of year. 03:02:35 McCool: we need a repo. 03:02:39 s/Our WG page and IG page can be automatic/possibly our WG pae and IG page can be automatically generated like that./ 03:02:43 McCool: we need to discuss in main call. 03:02:54 McCool: somebody needs to make strawman proposal. 03:03:15 McCool: we need to define concrete action items. 03:03:29 Dave: we need to invest time. 03:03:33 s/I am not suggesting anything./please note that I'm not suggesting we should use this automatic generation mechanism for WoT. This is just one of the possible options/ 03:03:44 hirata has joined #wot 03:03:57 McCool: I am also going to joint marketing TF. 03:03:59 s/We need to/My point is that we need to/ 03:04:12 Sebastian: at least fix the short-time tasks by the next F2F. 03:04:14 s/going to joint/going to join the/ 03:04:30 McCool: obviously wrong things. 03:04:43 McCool: eg. delete ancient content. 03:05:01 Dave: procedure? 03:05:19