23:49:39 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #wot 23:49:39 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-wot-irc 23:49:47 <kTakano> kTakano has joined #wot 23:50:19 <matsuda> matsuda has joined #wot 23:50:40 <dsr> rrsagent, this meeting spans midnight 23:50:53 <dezell> dezell has joined #wot 23:51:05 <yoshiaki> yoshiaki has joined #wot 23:51:11 <dezell> present+ 23:51:12 <dsr> meeting: Web of Things F2F, TPAC 2019 23:51:16 <yofukami> yofukami has joined #wot 23:51:22 <dsr> rrsagent, set logs public 23:51:31 <dsr> chair: McCool 23:52:08 <dsr> present+ 23:53:05 <tksuzuki> tksuzuki has joined #wot 23:57:23 <minami> minami has joined #wot 00:00:00 <kaz> kaz has joined #wot 00:00:33 <ryuichi> ryuichi has joined #wot 00:01:53 <minobu> minobu has joined #wot 00:02:37 <horiuchi> horiuchi has joined #wot 00:02:55 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #wot 00:02:58 <hendo> hendo has joined #wot 00:03:21 <dsr> scribenick: dsr 00:04:36 <sebastian> sebastian has joined #wot 00:04:41 <kawaguch> kawaguch has joined #wot 00:05:05 <dsr> Michael does some agenda bashing including ideas fo future F2F locations. 00:05:38 <dsr> Topic: Use cases and requirements 00:06:09 <hEndo_> hEndo_ has joined #wot 00:06:29 <hirata> hirata has joined #wot 00:06:31 <dsr> McCool: The TAG were looking for the WG’s use cases and requirements work, this doesn’t existing in a formal way at present. We should rectify that. 00:07:24 <dsr> Shows the next steps slide for the Munich WoT workshop 00:07:41 <dsr> This has 3 columns: update, next and new 00:08:10 <dsr> The WG Charter proposal relates to the Workshop results 00:09:18 <dsr> One change is that following input from the Decentralised Identifier WG, McCool has renamed the corresponding work item from Identity to Identifier management. 00:10:05 <dsr> McCool: any other ideas for the charter? 00:10:27 <dsr> sebastian: we heard some comments about our approach to eventing … 00:10:29 <kaz> -> https://www.w3.org/2019/Talks/TPAC/2019-09_WoT-AC.pdf McCool's slides 00:11:04 <kaz> q+ 00:11:06 <dsr> … some thoughts about testing in respect to eventing 00:11:35 <dsr> McCool: do we do testing or just interoperability 00:12:01 <dsr> We have some testing gaps, including eventing 00:12:50 <dsr> … some discussion about testing toolis 00:13:02 <dsr> s/toolis/tools 00:13:28 <dsr> ack kaz 00:14:16 <dsr> Kaz: one question is how we report the output of the plugfests 00:15:07 <dsr> Kaz: yesterday’s voice assistant breakout touched upon relation to WoT 00:15:29 <dsr> McCool: we don’t yet have a work item on accessibility 00:15:42 <kaz> s/one question is/2 points. first,/ 00:15:53 <kaz> s/yesterday's/2nd, yesterday's/ 00:16:41 <dsr> dsr: this is an opportunity to bring in some accessibility experts into the WG 00:16:54 <kaz> present+ Kaz_Ashimura, Michael_McCool, Toru_Kawaguchi, Kunihiko_Toumura, Ryuichi_Matsukura, Tetsushi_Matsuda, Takahisa_Suzuki, Dave_Raggett, Daniel_Peintner, Ege_Korkan 00:17:49 <dsr> Topic: Ideation 00:18:59 <kaz> present+ David_Ezell, Arnaud_LeHors, Sebastian_Kaebisch, Yoshiaki_Fukami, Suguru_Washio, Taki_Kamiya, Tomoaki_Mizushima, Hayato_Shinmachi 00:19:16 <dsr> Slides on possible use cases for 2nd generation of WoT standard 00:19:34 <dsr> Presented by NRI 00:20:26 <dsr> (slides to be archived later) 00:20:33 <inamori_> inamori_ has joined #wot 00:21:07 <dsr> Japanese Web community have been thinking about ideas for future WoT standards 00:21:19 <kaz> present+ Minobu_Abe, Takuki_Nankou, Shinjiro_Urata, Kaname_Takano, Diego_Ferreiro, Keisuke_Minami, Hiroki_Endo, Nonoka_Jinushi, Hiroshi_Fujisawa, Takeshi_Yamada, Tetsuhiko_Hirata, Shinya_Abe 00:21:40 <kaz> s/Ideation/Ideathon/ 00:21:56 <dsr> (NRI = Nomura Research Institute) 00:22:28 <kaz> @@@slides tbd 00:22:49 <kaz> rrsagetn, make log public 00:22:54 <kaz> rrsagent, make log public 00:22:55 <dsr> An “Ideathon†took place on 23-24 August 2019 with 22 participants 00:23:02 <kaz> s/rrsagetn, make log public// 00:23:07 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes 00:23:07 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-wot-minutes.html kaz 00:23:43 <dsr> Slides full of detailed content (very small print) 00:24:52 <dsr> One example is a “Poop checker†00:25:32 <kaz> s/fo future/for future/ 00:25:38 <dsr> This is a medical diagnosis application 00:26:11 <kaz> i/Michael does some/topic: Logistics and Agenda discussion/ 00:26:48 <dsr> and comes with a list of potential devices, e.g. toilet with sensors, smart speaker etc. 00:27:21 <dsr> and some requirements related to the WoT WG charter 00:29:02 <dsr> Michael: that reminds me that we have yet to address orchestration across multiple devices 00:29:32 <dsr> 2nd use case involving a camping car 00:30:03 <dsr> (mobile home) 00:31:02 <kaz> present+ Ken_Ebert, Phil_Archer 00:35:24 <inamori_> inamori_ has joined #wot 00:35:59 <dsr> dsr has joined #wot 00:36:19 <kaz> q? 00:36:39 <dsr> 3rd use case is a security robot, e.g. to inform people when someone is breaking into their home 00:36:40 <hfuji> hfuji has joined #wot 00:36:44 <sebastian> q+ 00:36:49 <dsr> This is an autonomous vehicle … 00:36:56 <dsr> the use case also includes wearable devices 00:37:01 <dsr> the use case also includes wearable devices 00:37:04 <kaz> ack seb 00:37:11 <dsr> 3rd use case is a security robot, e.g. to inform people when someone is breaking into their home 00:37:16 <McCool> McCool has joined #wot 00:38:19 <dsr> This use case has requirements in respect to: link relation types, interoperability profile, complex interactions, discovery, privacy and security 00:38:37 <horiuchi_> horiuchi_ has joined #wot 00:39:13 <sebastian> q? 00:39:35 <dsr> Dave: I am involved in a new European research project (GATEKEEPER) on applying WoT to healthcare, including early diagnosis of medical conditions 00:40:14 <dsr> McCool: we are especially interested in new requirements 00:40:41 <dsr> some discussion on linking types 00:41:39 <dsr> McCool: is there a way to ask the workshop participants in case we have questions? 00:41:48 <dsr> Answer: yes 00:41:52 <dsr> (via email) 00:42:48 <dsr> McCool: I will shortly talk about a template for use case descriptions for our work item on use cases and requirements 00:43:48 <dsr> In the context of these slides - what columns we expect 00:44:17 <hfuji> hfuji has joined #wot 00:44:38 <dsr> The slides have idea (title), overview (short description), devices involved and data (what data is involved) 00:45:18 <dsr> sebastian: I like this general approach, but also like preconditions, the goal to be reached and the expected outcome for each use case 00:47:25 <dsr> Are we describing a problem only or a problem and a solution to that problem 00:48:18 <dsr> slides providing a summary of the ideathon 00:49:04 <shouqun> shouqun has joined #wot 00:49:23 <dsr> (text too small to see from back of room) 00:53:29 <dsr> One challenge is who will pay for sensors in public spaces 00:53:49 <dsr> The method of trading data, … 00:54:15 <dsr> An issue of how we can set up databases 00:54:57 <dsr> Role of local government and secure management of data 00:55:35 <dsr> Any questions? [no] 00:56:08 <ryuichi> ryuichi has joined #wot 00:56:11 <dsr> [round of applause in thanks for the NRI input] 00:56:45 <dsr> Michael shows slides on use cases and requirements 00:57:04 <kaz> @@@slides tbd 00:57:51 <dsr> The TAG asked us to prepare more formal use cases and requirements. Alan Bird further suggested we should note the business justification for use cases. 00:58:18 <dsr> We also need to ensure that the use cases have the consensus of the WG 00:58:40 <dape_> dape_ has joined #wot 00:58:44 <dsr> We further need to do this before starting significant work 00:58:44 <hirata> hirata has joined #wot 00:59:27 <dsr> Where work has already started, we need to go back and document the use cases that justify the work 00:59:48 <dsr> Michael proposes some ideas for templates for use cases 01:00:51 <dsr> The suggestion that we start with a concise user story - as a type of user, I want to achieve some goal so that some thing is realised 01:01:36 <dsr> e.g. as a developer I want ease of use so that I can develop WoT apps faster 01:01:59 <dsr> We need to define categories of users 01:02:44 <dsr> We should classify the use cases into those that are accepted, those that are proposed and awaiting a decision, and those that are rejected 01:02:53 <dezell> q+ 01:03:16 <dsr> We can start by brain storming some some possible requirements 01:03:28 <dsr> and then decide which ones are crucial 01:04:04 <dsr> We should try to define the problem but not the technical solution 01:04:42 <kaz> q? 01:04:45 <dsr> ack dezell 01:05:24 <dsr> dezell: rejected is a little harsh as a term, use cases should be archived even if not deemed important 01:06:10 <dsr> Michael: some use cases could be out of scope 01:06:26 <dsr> Similar approach is needed for the WG’s design decisions 01:06:41 <dsr> We need a clear process and record of decisions 01:07:29 <dsr> Which decisions were accepted and which were rejected 01:07:44 <kaz> q+ 01:07:46 <dsr> sebastian: what kind of use cases would we want? 01:08:24 <dsr> Michael: my view is that use cases should be user oriented, e.g. as a businessman, I want to … 01:09:09 <dsr> Dave: we should emphasise use cases that motivate companies to adopt and exploit the web of things 01:09:43 <kaz> -> https://w3c.github.io/mmi/usecases/Overview.html mmi use cases 01:10:09 <dsr> Michael: the issue tracker tends to be a little free form, and we need to extract and formalise our descriptions of use cases, requirements and design decisions 01:10:28 <kaz> ack k 01:11:03 <kaz> kaz: agree it would be nicer to have a compiled document (and provides an example above) 01:11:26 <dsr> Michael slows his ideas for how we could apply this to WoT profiles as an example of a template structure 01:11:35 <Suguru> Suguru has joined #wot 01:12:03 <dsr> [link?] 01:12:36 <kaz> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-profile/blob/master/REQUIREMENTS.md Michael's initial proposal 01:13:22 <dsr> Michael talks us through the proposed structure 01:13:59 <kaz> s|/w3c/|/mmcool/| 01:14:51 <dsr> Michael: for example as a home user, I want to know that a given device will work in my home environment 01:16:23 <dsr> The next step is to turn this into an actual template 01:16:50 <dsr> Kaz: we could start with this and use github issues for managing use cases 01:17:41 <dsr> Any comments on this template? [no] 01:17:43 <kaz> s/managing use cases/managing use cases, but we need to generate a compiled use cases document in the end./ 01:17:52 <dsr> sebastian: what is the timeline for this work? 01:19:01 <dezell> q+ to ask about process and reference 01:19:31 <dsr> Michael: I think by March, we should have this in a good shape 01:19:38 <hendo__> hendo__ has joined #wot 01:20:28 <dsr> Dave:do you expect to have both use cases and requirements and design decisions by March? 01:20:41 <dsr> Michael: there’s actually four things … 01:21:25 <dsr> Dave: another point is how we can relate this to our horizontal review plan 01:21:27 <horiuchi> horiuchi has joined #wot 01:21:47 <dsr> Michael: we need to get such review early and often 01:22:36 <dezell> q- 01:22:48 <dsr> Dave: we need to ask for review when we have work in a good enough state for reviewers to justify their time 01:23:36 <kaz> -> https://w3c.github.io/mmi/usecases/Overview.html MMI use case document as another example 01:23:49 <hEndo> hEndo has joined #wot 01:23:51 <McCool> McCool has joined #wot 01:23:59 <kaz> -> https://w3c.github.io/mmi/usecases/Overview.html MMI use case document as another example 01:24:37 <dsr> Michael shows the MMI WG’s WG Note for their use cases 01:25:15 <dsr> These seem to lack a clear structure 01:26:06 <ryuichi> ryuichi has joined #wot 01:26:35 <dsr> The motivation has some questions in italics from a template 01:27:02 <dsr> s/These seem to lack a clear structure// 01:27:07 <dape> q+ 01:27:33 <dsr> Michael: the use case needs to clarify the time sequencing in the story 01:27:56 <dsr> dezell: how do you differentiate a use case from a use story? 01:28:12 <dsr> s/use story/user story 01:29:00 <horiuchi> horiuchi has joined #wot 01:29:00 <dsr> Michael: a use case is more formal 01:29:23 <dsr> dezell: I am happy whichever way you go, but please be consistent 01:30:23 <minobu> minobu has joined #wot 01:30:27 <dape> http://w3c.github.io/wot/ucr-doc/ 01:30:43 <dsr> Dave: we could talk to the TAG, and ask in the chairs list for comments and input on the process and templates for use cases 01:31:35 <dsr> Michael: we should allocate further time for this in future calls 01:32:05 <dsr> Kaz: do we want to set up a task force to guide this? 01:32:22 <horiuchi> horiuchi has joined #wot 01:32:36 <dsr> Michael: let’s discuss that in the next call as we’re out of time now 01:33:05 <kaz> [break till 10:45] 01:33:11 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes 01:33:11 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-wot-minutes.html kaz 01:33:22 <yoshiaki> yoshiaki has joined #wot 01:35:16 <yoshiaki> yoshiaki has joined #wot 01:42:33 <naomi> naomi has joined #wot 01:45:26 <Shinya> Shinya has joined #wot 01:46:11 <kana> kana has joined #wot 01:47:26 <dlongley> dlongley has joined #wot 01:47:54 <dlongley> dlongley has left #wot 01:48:08 <dlongley> dlongley has joined #wot 01:48:57 <kTakano> kTakano has joined #wot 01:51:56 <dezell> dezell has joined #wot 01:51:56 <ryuichi> ryuichi has joined #wot 01:52:04 <dezell> scribenick: dezell 01:52:16 <dsr> Topic: WoT Testing Framework 01:52:28 <dezell> Topic: WoT Testing Framework 01:52:42 <dezell> presenter: Ege Korkan, Siemens AG 01:53:24 <Shinya> Shinya has joined #wot 01:53:30 <dezell> ege: working move the playground to the JSON-LD model 01:54:17 <minobu> minobu has joined #wot 01:54:47 <dezell> See: https://github.com/thingweb/thingweb-playground 01:54:55 <kaz> @@@ slides tbd 01:55:02 <dezell> (Note: presentation will be linked from the agenda. 01:55:29 <Mizushima> Mizushima has joined #wot 01:56:07 <dezell> ege: new features - live validation, saving TD as a gist online, filling the editor with an example TD 01:56:15 <dezell> ...: a gist must always be valid. 01:56:26 <dape> q+ 01:57:00 <McCool> q? 01:57:08 <horiuchi> horiuchi has joined #wot 01:57:25 <dezell> kaz: thought there would be some automatic saving. 01:57:50 <dezell> xyzzy: there is some confusion on this point, it's more of the capability to share. 01:58:09 <dezell> McCool: we also need to "feed" some repository. 01:58:52 <kaz> s/xyzzy:/daniel:/ 01:59:22 <dezell> ege: the idea is to make creating a new TD simple and quick. 01:59:27 <hirata> hirata has joined #wot 01:59:54 <dezell> McCool: a selection of templates might be a good idea. 02:00:25 <Suguru> Suguru has joined #wot 02:00:33 <dezell> ege: more new features - optional assertion testing on front-end, importing a TD, better error messages. 02:01:18 <dezell> McCool: error could link back to TD to explain what failed. 02:01:40 <dezell> ege: (demo of the page for Thing Description Playground) 02:01:48 <dape> http://plugfest.thingweb.io/playground/ 02:02:05 <kaz> present+ Eric_Siow, Yefeng_Xia 02:02:42 <horiuchi_> horiuchi_ has joined #wot 02:02:46 <dezell> ...: there is the ability to enter an example invalid TD to check operations. 02:03:19 <dezell> McCool: we need to see all the errors, not just the most recent. 02:04:09 <naomi> naomi has joined #wot 02:04:10 <dezell> ege: the tool will automatically validate the TD, with line/column. 02:04:12 <naomi> naomi has joined #wot 02:05:02 <dezell> ...: "gistify" allows you to name and save the contents. But you must be logged in to save. 02:06:04 <dape> https://gist.github.com/ 02:07:07 <dezell> ...: so you can save these TDs without resorting to external storage. 02:07:43 <dezell> McCool: It would be great to have this automatic checking available for people to use with their own repos (on checkin). 02:08:10 <dezell> ...: "integrated tooling for git." 02:08:43 <dezell> ege: question - do we want to make the set of "gists" somehow official? 02:09:13 <kaz> s/thought there would be some automatic saving./do you mean all the TD submission would be automatically validated every time using some plugin (like pr-preview)?/ 02:10:15 <dezell> McCool: we should talk about whether we want TD integrated into regular W3C git repositories. 02:11:09 <kaz> present+ Shouqun_Liu 02:11:10 <dezell> dsr: there's a lot of complexity about using W3C logos or making broad claims about compatibility. 02:11:27 <dezell> ...: reports of compliance are always based on trust (today). 02:11:53 <dezell> McCool: but it would be helpful to know that trust is backed up with tests. 02:12:18 <dezell> sebastian: can you query all tests related to a TD (gist). 02:12:33 <dezell> s/)\./)\?/ 02:13:12 <dezell> ege: you can explore your gists, but there's no direct query - github doesn't know a gist from other things that you put in there. 02:14:10 <dezell> ...: we could improve things by allowing >only< gists. 02:15:29 <dezell> ...: future work - should we have ... 1) script based validation as an npm package, 2) a server to send TDs and get validation results. 02:16:31 <dezell> McCool: a separate server would be helpful for those who don't want to install Node. 02:16:58 <dezell> ege: behavior testing: 02:17:20 <dezell> ...: - tool to fuzz test all interactions of the TD 02:17:42 <dezell> ...: - test bench is being updated to generate .csv 02:18:47 <dezell> ...: Also ability to test external things against TD (e.g., messages are schema valid) 02:19:58 <dezell> McCool: this discussion raises the issue "are properties static"? 02:20:56 <dezell> ege: deployment options - need opinions: 02:21:04 <dezell> ...: - as an online server 02:21:17 <dezell> ...: - installing locally (own machine) 02:21:31 <dezell> ...: - testing from own browser (limited to HTTP) 02:22:18 <dezell> s/server/server, allows only online exposed things/ 02:22:54 <dezell> s/machine/machine, installation overhead/ 02:23:58 <dezell> McCool: seems there are two cases - testing real devices and testing simulated devices. 02:24:02 <dezell> ...: need to do both. 02:24:22 <dezell> ...: "browser" option is a convenience for getting started. 02:25:37 <dezell> daniel: first and third are the same in terms of the UI, whereas the second is potentially different. 02:26:40 <dezell> ege: consumer testing (consumes messages) 02:26:57 <minami> minami has joined #wot 02:27:36 <dezell> ...: clinet-data-schema, client-data-schema-accept-extras, client-data-schema-no-extras, client-uri-template 02:28:24 <dezell> ...: given a TD, npm can create a Virtual Thing: can generate a report, or be hosted online on Thingweb. 02:29:18 <dezell> ...: important to identify TDs that cover many features, making sure of a thorough client test. 02:30:27 <dezell> McCool: would like to use virtual things for testing, but also monitor traffic between a real thing and real client and diagnose the health. 02:31:09 <Suguru_> Suguru_ has joined #wot 02:32:29 <dezell> ege: behavior testing: break them 02:32:52 <dezell> ...: - safety testing (invalid inputs to exposed thing, returning invalid data to consumers) 02:33:34 <dezell> ...: - security testing (pen-testing based on security information, invalid security information on ETs) 02:33:45 <dezell> s/exposed thing/Exposed Thing/ 02:34:43 <dezell> McCool: any questions? 02:34:50 <dezell> Answer [no]. 02:35:05 <taki> scribe: TK 02:35:10 <taki> scribenick: taki 02:35:20 <horiuchi> horiuchi has joined #wot 02:36:17 <Mizushima> Mizushima has joined #wot 02:36:36 <taki> Sebastian: wants to discuss WoT Web Presence. 02:36:58 <taki> Sebastian: first set of deliverables are ready soon. 02:37:16 <taki> Sebastian: I met lots of poeple who are interested. 02:37:44 <taki> Sebastian: It is difficult to provide something for them to read and learn, such as introduction. 02:38:01 <kaz> i/wants to discuss WoT Web Presence/topic: Marketing/ 02:38:08 <taki> Sebastian: I am contributing to other consortia. OPC-UA, eClass, etc. 02:38:11 <naomi> naomi has joined #wot 02:38:14 <naomi> naomi has joined #wot 02:38:38 <taki> Sebastian: easiest way is first to fix our web page. 02:38:43 <Mizushima_> Mizushima_ has joined #wot 02:38:48 <taki> Sebastian: we have plenty of web pages now on W3C site. 02:39:05 <taki> Sebastian: Not very helpful for newcomes. 02:39:14 <taki> Sebastian: they do not care IG/WG etc. 02:39:17 <Suguru> Suguru has joined #wot 02:39:27 <taki> McCool: entry point is important. 02:39:43 <taki> McCool: other pages can be elsewhere. 02:40:12 <taki> Eric: WoT is messed up, complicated multiple IoT/ 02:40:23 <kaz> s/entry point/the WoT landing page as the entry point/ 02:40:42 <taki> Eric: people not engineer want to deploy smart city, etc. 02:40:59 <taki> Eric: will hire consultant. 02:41:13 <taki> Eric: They look at W3C WoT side. it does not resonate now. 02:41:23 <taki> Eric: business people control budget. 02:41:33 <taki> Eric: cannot only cater engineer. 02:41:46 <taki> Eric: have to communicate to business people who control budget. 02:42:03 <taki> Eric: need to think abuot customer base. 02:42:56 <taki> Eric: slide show / video show that describes problem statement (e.g. smart city). Up-level it, script it so that business people can understand. 02:43:15 <taki> McCool: up-level does not necessarily mean abstract. still needs to be concrete. 02:43:26 <taki> McCool: we need concrete examples. 02:43:40 <taki> Eric: up-level means speaking to architect. 02:44:06 <taki> Sebastian: Next question. where are pain points now? 02:44:14 <taki> Sebastian: three different web pages. 02:44:34 <taki> Sebastian: newcomers think what are the relationship? 02:44:45 <taki> McCool: entry point should describe that. 02:44:55 <taki> Daniel: the pages should look the same. 02:45:12 <taki> McCool: they can search and get to sub-page. 02:45:26 <taki> McCool: we can re-design URI 02:45:31 <taki> s/URI/UI/ 02:45:50 <taki> Daniel: home button etc. UI needs to be consistent. 02:45:56 <taki> McCool: normalization. 02:46:07 <taki> McCool: and there is structure issue. 02:46:12 <Suguru_> Suguru_ has joined #wot 02:46:49 <taki> McCool: navigation issue is one. 02:47:07 <Suguru> Suguru has joined #wot 02:47:37 <taki> McCool: we need volunteers. 02:47:42 <hiata> hiata has joined #wot 02:47:51 <taki> McCool: to fix navigation problem immediately. 02:47:51 <dezell> q+ 02:48:06 <taki> Daniel: three different pages now. 02:48:24 <taki> McCool: longer term, we need to clean up. 02:48:36 <dape> ack dape 02:49:00 <taki> Dave: there are short-time and long-time issues. 02:49:30 <taki> Daniel: current status, goals and how to get there. we need to think about this. 02:50:03 <taki> Sebastian: we are staring a new charter. need to think about branding. 02:50:26 <taki> Eric: How do you explain DID to laymen. 02:50:58 <horiuchi> horiuchi has joined #wot 02:51:06 <taki> Eric: I have my own "close line". 02:51:24 <taki> Eric: to explain complex thing to laymen. 02:51:35 <taki> Eric: I can help in this effort. 02:52:02 <taki> David: domains are important. 02:52:33 <taki> Dave: top-level entry page is up to us. 02:52:52 <taki> David: It used to be cleverer before. 02:53:27 <taki> McCool: what resource does W3C have for help? 02:53:32 <taki> Dave: very little. 02:54:15 <taki> Dave: use cases is more important than navigation issue. 02:54:32 <taki> McCool: Do we want to create marketing TF? 02:54:46 <taki> Sebastian: We used to have marketing TF before. 02:55:08 <taki> McCool: It is a short-time focused project. 02:55:24 <taki> McCool: Dave and Kaz can initially help on landing page issue. 02:55:52 <taki> Daniel: we tried before, but there were lots of restrictions by W3C. 02:56:01 <taki> Dave: I can help on getting permission. 02:56:02 <hirata> hirata has joined #wot 02:56:12 <taki> Dave: W3C has flat structure. 02:56:24 <taki> Dave: each group has independence. 02:56:29 <kaz> q+ 02:56:53 <taki> Dave: we first need to think about function. 02:57:15 <taki> Dave: then think about what do we want to say. 02:57:57 <taki> McCool: let's separate short-term and long-term tasks. 02:58:07 <taki> McCool: Landing page content is long-term. 02:58:43 <naomi> naomi has joined #wot 02:58:46 <Mizushima> Mizushima has joined #wot 02:59:03 <taki> McCool: there are also medium term tasks such as launching landing pages. 02:59:25 <taki> Kaz: we need to think about concrete use cases and requirements about this. 02:59:46 <kaz> -> https://www.w3.org/2019/html/ html wg page 03:00:04 <taki> Kaz: HTML WG has automatically generated page, for example. I am not proposing anything. 03:00:31 <taki> Kaz: Our WG page and IG page can be automatic. 03:00:41 <taki> Daniel: we should reduce complexity. 03:00:53 <taki> Daniel: from business people's perspective. 03:01:00 <taki> Kaz: I am not suggeting anything. 03:01:08 <taki> Kaz: We need to clarify issues. 03:01:38 <taki> McCool: we can incrementally change instead of radical big change. 03:01:51 <kaz> s/issues/issues and requirements, i.e., what kind of information should be included in which page/ 03:01:58 <taki> Dave: we need to regularly invest time. 03:02:11 <taki> McCool: let's think about action items. 03:02:28 <taki> McCool: marketing TF sill the end of year. 03:02:35 <taki> McCool: we need a repo. 03:02:39 <kaz> s/Our WG page and IG page can be automatic/possibly our WG pae and IG page can be automatically generated like that./ 03:02:43 <taki> McCool: we need to discuss in main call. 03:02:54 <taki> McCool: somebody needs to make strawman proposal. 03:03:15 <taki> McCool: we need to define concrete action items. 03:03:29 <taki> Dave: we need to invest time. 03:03:33 <kaz> s/I am not suggesting anything./please note that I'm not suggesting we should use this automatic generation mechanism for WoT. This is just one of the possible options/ 03:03:44 <hirata> hirata has joined #wot 03:03:57 <taki> McCool: I am also going to joint marketing TF. 03:03:59 <kaz> s/We need to/My point is that we need to/ 03:04:12 <taki> Sebastian: at least fix the short-time tasks by the next F2F. 03:04:14 <kaz> s/going to joint/going to join the/ 03:04:30 <taki> McCool: obviously wrong things. 03:04:43 <taki> McCool: eg. delete ancient content. 03:05:01 <taki> Dave: procedure? 03:05:19 <taki> McCool: Sebastian to create strawman. 03:05:33 <taki> Ege: twitter account can be considered. 03:05:43 <taki> McCool: it is a long term task. 03:06:01 <taki> McCool: let's create a wikipage for marketing TF. 03:06:12 <taki> Kaz: and GitHub right? 03:06:21 <taki> McCool: yes and doodle poll. 03:06:41 <taki> McCool: task list should be discussed using email. 03:07:11 <taki> McCool: 2 weeks from now we have a main call and have strawman discussed. 03:08:33 <kaz> [lunch till 1pm; room locked till 12:50] 03:13:21 <naomi> naomi has joined #wot 03:13:52 <horiuchi> horiuchi has joined #wot 03:15:22 <horiuchi_> horiuchi_ has joined #wot 03:31:25 <horiuchi> horiuchi has joined #wot 03:39:51 <horiuchi> horiuchi has joined #wot 03:44:06 <horiuchi_> horiuchi_ has joined #wot 03:57:36 <yoshiaki> yoshiaki has joined #wot 04:01:57 <azaroth__> azaroth__ has joined #wot 04:03:39 <gkellogg_> gkellogg_ has joined #wot 04:04:02 <dsr> dsr has joined #wot 04:04:18 <simonstey> simonstey has joined #wot 04:04:19 <yoshiaki_> yoshiaki_ has joined #wot 04:04:26 <azaroth> present+ Rob_Sanderson 04:04:31 <gkellogg_> present+ Gregg_Kellogg 04:04:33 <Shonya> Shonya has joined #wot 04:04:33 <Suguru> Suguru has joined #wot 04:04:33 <minami> minami has joined #wot 04:04:43 <azaroth> present+ ivan 04:04:47 <azaroth> present+ bigbluehat 04:04:50 <ssstolk> ssstolk has joined #wot 04:05:09 <dlehn> dlehn has joined #wot 04:05:58 <taki> taki has joined #wot 04:06:22 <Mizushima> Mizushima has joined #wot 04:06:24 <McCool> McCool has joined #wot 04:06:43 <hendo_> hendo_ has joined #wot 04:06:57 <Kris> Kris has joined #wot 04:07:18 <kaz> scribenick: kaz 04:07:21 <dezell> dezell has joined #wot 04:07:28 <dezell> present+ 04:07:39 <kaz> topic: Joint Meeting with JSON-LD WG 04:07:55 <ryuichi> ryuichi has joined #wot 04:08:03 <kaz> sk: we had good discussion during TPAC 2018 04:08:07 <dape> dape has joined #wot 04:08:15 <kaz> ... helpful to clarify issues 04:08:45 <kaz> ... would talk about the current status and issues closed 04:08:56 <kaz> ... unfortunately, Victor is not here 04:09:14 <inamori_> inamori_ has joined #wot 04:09:14 <kaz> ... he takes care of the mapping, etc. 04:09:23 <kaz> @@@slides tbd 04:09:29 <kaz> sk: 2 topics here 04:09:39 <kaz> ... container object for TD security definition 04:09:49 <kaz> ... and 04:10:13 <zkis> zkis has joined #wot 04:10:17 <kaz> ... note on the difference between a JSON-LD context and an RDF vocab 04:10:28 <kaz> ih: magic source :) 04:10:44 <kaz> sk: what are the LD features, etc. 04:10:52 <kaz> mm: one more thing about JSON vs JSON-LD 04:11:04 <kaz> ... maybe would add a new feature? 04:11:22 <kaz> sk: wot architecture issue? 04:11:24 <kaz> mm: right 04:11:36 <kaz> ... nice to consider that issue as well 04:11:54 <kaz> ih: for the last one, we'll have a session about that 04:12:09 <kaz> ... at 2pm during the JSON-LD meeting 04:12:14 <ege> ege has joined #wot 04:12:59 <kaz> ms: how to address who wants to use JSON vs JSON-LD? 04:13:02 <ege> ege has joined #wot 04:13:08 <kaz> ... if we have time, let's chat about that 04:13:31 <kaz> sk: let's start with the first issue 04:13:36 <kaz> ... [Container Objects] 04:13:55 <kaz> ... use case: a WoT developer writes a TD for a "Thing" ... 04:14:05 <kaz> ... [Container Objects (example TD)] 04:14:12 <zkis> present+ Zoltan_Kis 04:14:22 <kaz> ... left side: the current TD 04:14:27 <kaz> ... right side: new proposal 04:14:38 <kaz> ... (enlarge the example TD) 04:15:17 <kaz> ... security scheme is mandatory 04:15:29 <kaz> ... then you can assign some interactions here 04:15:38 <kaz> ... which scheme to be applied 04:15:46 <kaz> ... basic, basic and psk 04:15:49 <kaz> ... on the right hand 04:16:04 <kaz> s/new proposal/no container/ 04:16:16 <kaz> ... equivalent TD with no container 04:16:42 <kaz> ... unexpected repetition of "basic" here and there 04:16:59 <kaz> ... w3c/json-ld-syntax 04:17:13 <sebastian> sebastian has joined #wot 04:17:15 <sebastian> https://github.com/w3c/json-ld-syntax/issues/19 04:17:29 <kaz> s/syntax/syntax issue 19/ 04:17:38 <kaz> ... Indexing without a predicate 04:17:42 <azaroth> The resolution for api#19 resulted in this section of the current spec: https://www.w3.org/TR/json-ld11/#included-nodes 04:17:49 <kaz> ... (shows the example data) 04:18:02 <kaz> s/.../sk: / 04:18:14 <kaz> sk: maybe you can comment on this 04:18:41 <kaz> azaroth: issue 19 resolution above 04:18:53 <kaz> ... (shows 4.7 Included Nodes) 04:19:01 <kaz> ... there are 2 nodes 04:19:19 <kaz> ... minor change here 04:19:28 <kaz> ... id was a key for match 04:19:41 <kaz> ... (enum#c6 and enum#s2) 04:20:06 <kaz> ... classification for the same URI 04:20:36 <kaz> ... this could be a solution for your issue 04:20:52 <kaz> ... here is the definition (Example 104) 04:21:38 <kaz> gk: inline or embed 04:21:48 <kaz> mm: question is normalization 04:21:59 <kaz> ... normalized version may be clean 04:22:18 <kaz> sk: update context by included nodes 04:22:23 <kaz> ... sounds good 04:23:44 <kaz> gk: note that not included in the context any more 04:24:22 <kaz> azaroth: options to offer inline or embed 04:24:31 <kaz> sk: sounds very good 04:24:43 <kaz> ... next 04:24:49 <kaz> ... Context vs Vocabulary 04:25:06 <kaz> ... how to make this clearer? 04:25:28 <kaz> ... many people have a look at context 04:25:34 <kaz> ... class definition here 04:25:38 <kaz> ... but based on RDF 04:26:12 <kaz> azaroth: one of the non-REC track document about primer 04:26:14 <ktoumura> ktoumura has joined #wot 04:26:20 <kaz> ... nice to describe this point 04:26:32 <kaz> ... we expect to work on a primer 04:26:48 <kaz> ... explain JSON-LD to more developers 04:27:30 <kaz> gk: in JSON-LD 1.0, we didn't really talked about the issue 04:27:49 <kaz> ... similar to other RDF notation 04:28:25 <azaroth> q? 04:28:59 <kaz> ack dezell 04:29:01 <kaz> ack kaz 04:29:04 <kaz> ack ... 04:29:04 <Zakim> ..., you wanted to comment on the right 04:29:36 <kaz> sk: there is discussion on automotive vocabulary 04:29:42 <kaz> ... could be reused for WoT purposes 04:30:18 <azaroth> q+ 04:30:30 <kaz> ms: here is a real problem 04:30:55 <hEndo> hEndo has joined #wot 04:32:27 <kaz> ... we need to think about a tool so that people don't need to understand the detail of RDF 04:32:40 <pchampin> pchampin has joined #wot 04:32:50 <horiuchi> horiuchi has joined #wot 04:33:10 <kaz> mm: good idea to have a simple framework for that 04:35:02 <kaz> mm: naive people don't care RDF at all 04:35:14 <azaroth> ack azaroth 04:35:33 <kaz> azaroth: confusion about what "mapping" means 04:35:49 <kaz> ... RDF class to resource 04:35:55 <kaz> ... only for mapping existing terms 04:36:02 <kaz> ... not creating new data 04:36:17 <bigbluehat> q+ ssstolk 04:36:39 <kaz> ih: you define constraint 04:36:59 <bigbluehat> q+ bigbluehat 04:37:00 <kaz> ... it's a super version of abbreviation 04:37:04 <minobu> minobu has joined #wot 04:37:17 <horiuchi> horiuchi has joined #wot 04:37:18 <kaz> ... not only listing but describing 04:37:33 <azaroth> ack ssstolk 04:37:36 <kaz> mm: maybe related to another issue on validation too 04:37:38 <yoshiaki> yoshiaki has joined #wot 04:38:01 <kaz> ssstolk: there is a construction infrastructure 04:38:13 <kaz> ... help create semantic definitions 04:38:22 <kaz> ... magic terms as linked data 04:38:27 <kaz> ... want to share 04:39:11 <azaroth> ack bigbluehat 04:39:19 <kaz> ... need to consider what is relevant to users 04:39:30 <kaz> q+ mccool 04:39:56 <kaz> bigbluehat: not going to the context but another resource 04:40:03 <kaz> ack mc 04:40:11 <azaroth> q+ manu 04:40:12 <kaz> mm: good example is security vocabulary 04:40:38 <kaz> ... now we're using JSON Schema 04:40:49 <kaz> ... problem with additional features 04:40:54 <gkellogg_> gkellogg_ has joined #wot 04:41:00 <manu-wot> manu-wot has joined #wot 04:41:08 <kaz> ... how to validate the extensiosn 04:41:15 <kaz> s/extensiosn/extensions/ 04:41:17 <manu-wot> Q+ 04:41:22 <bigbluehat> q+ 04:41:22 <matsuda> matsuda has joined #wot 04:41:26 <azaroth> q- manu 04:41:29 <kaz> ih: another WG working on JSON-LD vocabulary 04:41:41 <kaz> ... we can normatively refer it 04:41:52 <kaz> ... SHACL is probably a machine gun 04:42:01 <kaz> ... become complicated 04:42:06 <kaz> ... it depends what you need 04:42:18 <kaz> ... JSON Schema may be alright 04:42:24 <kaz> q+ mccool 04:42:27 <azaroth> ack manu-wot 04:42:42 <kaz> ms: in VCWG, we have the same issue 04:42:43 <azaroth> q+ to ask if extensions live in a particular property, or can be anywhere 04:42:52 <kaz> ... variety of different languages 04:43:03 <kaz> ... we can say this object conforms to this schema 04:43:11 <kaz> ... whatever schema to be included 04:43:17 <kaz> ... that said 04:43:24 <kaz> ... very strong preference for JSON Schema 04:43:41 <kaz> q? 04:44:02 <kaz> ... a lot of APIs would take data in the auth of wire 04:44:14 <kaz> ... most implementations force you to give JSON in a certain form 04:44:31 <yoshiaki_> yoshiaki_ has joined #wot 04:44:40 <kaz> ... use of JSON Schema help us enforce semantics 04:44:42 <kaz> q? 04:44:46 <azaroth> ack bigbluehat 04:45:22 <yoshiaki_> yoshiaki_ has joined #wot 04:46:08 <azaroth> q- 04:46:08 <kaz> bigbluehat: you can still validate before processing context 04:46:09 <yoshiaki_> yoshiaki_ has joined #wot 04:46:23 <manu-wot> q+ for no jsonld processing 04:46:24 <kaz> sk: another question on JSON vs JSON-LD? 04:46:33 <kaz> mm: yes, that's our priority 04:47:02 <kaz> sk: shows issue 371 04:47:10 <kaz> ... TAG interoperability concerns 04:47:38 <kaz> ... do you have the same problem? 04:47:59 <kaz> bigbluehat: you can use any names for your local vocabulary 04:48:02 <kaz> q? 04:48:18 <kaz> mm: original point is JSON within JSON-LD 04:48:19 <kTakano> kTakano has joined #wot 04:48:21 <azaroth> q+ 04:48:32 <azaroth> ack McCool 04:48:40 <azaroth> ack manu-wot 04:48:40 <Zakim> manu-wot, you wanted to discuss no jsonld processing 04:48:40 <bigbluehat> q+ 04:48:52 <azaroth> ack azaroth 04:49:12 <kaz> rob: wanted to say "don't do that" 04:49:26 <kaz> gk: core usage of JSON-LD is you take the data 04:49:31 <manu-wot> q+ to say CBOR-LD 04:49:55 <kaz> mm: the spec doesn't allow to rename things 04:50:04 <manu-wot> Q- 04:50:11 <azaroth> ack bigbluehat 04:50:31 <kaz> by: if there is another community working on different vocabulary 04:50:40 <azaroth> q+ to talk about gateways 04:50:52 <azaroth> ack azaroth 04:50:52 <Zakim> azaroth, you wanted to talk about gateways 04:50:53 <kaz> ... the question is when do you want to check it (before/after the conversion) 04:51:04 <kaz> gk: reframe the data 04:51:11 <kaz> rob: data passes transformations 04:51:21 <kaz> ... a very easy gateway 04:51:30 <manu-wot> q+ to note always support no jsonld processing. 04:51:33 <kaz> ... to convert input context to output context 04:51:56 <kaz> ... not interoperability concern but implementation concern 04:52:06 <dape> +q 04:52:21 <kaz> q+ 04:53:47 <kaz> sk: we're responsible how it should be done 04:53:55 <azaroth> ack kaz 04:54:21 <dape> ack dape 04:54:26 <kaz> kaz: do we want to explain that to David? 04:54:34 <kaz> mm: make response on GH? 04:55:09 <kaz> ih: btw, 2 more weeks for CR :) 04:55:17 <kaz> s/CR/JSON-LD CR/ 04:55:28 <kaz> gk: at least by the end of October 04:55:50 <mlagally> mlagally has joined #wot 04:55:53 <kaz> ms: the WG basically ended up that JSON-LD is the normative stuff 04:56:02 <kaz> ... that's the right answer 04:56:15 <kaz> .. we say in our spec you must add @context and everybody has to process it 04:56:26 <kaz> ... WoT context should be located at the top 04:56:38 <kaz> ... you can specify another file 04:56:59 <azaroth> Timeline for CR has the following switches: 2 weeks to process existing editorial issues (mostly typos) ; + 2 weeks if we need to deal with text direction ; + 2 weeks if we need to revise the version announcement 04:56:59 <kaz> ... overlay comes second 04:57:12 <kaz> sk: do you have an example? 04:58:03 <kaz> ms: Verifiable Credentials Data Model 04:58:12 <kaz> -> https://www.w3.org/TR/2019/PR-vc-data-model-20190905/ Verifiable Credentials Data Model 04:58:51 <kaz> ih: if people want to use the basic capability don't need to use JSON-LD 04:59:57 <dape> scribe: dape 05:00:15 <dape> TOPIC: Discovery 05:00:44 <dape> MMQ: Presentation is checked in already 05:01:00 <McCool> https://github.com/w3c/wot/blob/master/PRESENTATIONS/2019-09_WoT-Discovery.pdf 05:01:17 <kaz> i|Discovery|-> https://www.w3.org/TR/2017/REC-annotation-model-20170223/ Web Annotation Data Model as another example| 05:01:22 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes 05:01:22 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-wot-minutes.html kaz 05:01:25 <dape> s/MMQ/MCC 05:01:53 <ssstolk> ssstolk has left #wot 05:01:56 <dape> MCC: "Disovery" part of charter 05:02:09 <dape> ... Requirements 05:02:12 <dlehn> dlehn has left #wot 05:02:44 <dape> ... distribution mechanism of TDs 05:02:45 <Mizushima_> Mizushima_ has joined #wot 05:02:45 <Suguru_> Suguru_ has joined #wot 05:02:49 <mlagally> Good afternoon - can you hear our audio? 05:03:28 <mlagally> Yes, it works one way. Zoltan and I can also hear each other 05:03:37 <dape> ... Capabilities: local/global discovery, semantic queries, directories, peer-to-peer 05:05:07 <dape> ... Privacy-Preserve Architecture: Device & Information Lifecyle, authorized users 05:06:13 <mlagally> @kaz: seems not to work 05:07:06 <mlagally> now with echo 05:07:35 <mlagally> echo got crazy 05:07:45 <mlagally> n oaudio at all 05:07:51 <mlagally> no audio at all 05:09:02 <dape> ... Alignment with existing standards 05:09:32 <dape> ... get others on board, e.g., IETF core resource directories 05:09:45 <dape> ... core link format 05:10:04 <kaz> remote+ Elena, Lagally, Zoltan 05:10:54 <dape> ... Singapur meeting is a change to get in contact 05:11:28 <dape> ... Optional: support for scripting API 05:12:01 <dape> ... Proposal: Two Phase Discovery 05:12:16 <dape> ... find out adress to next step 05:12:31 <dape> ... adress has no information per se 05:12:43 <dape> s/adress/address 05:13:11 <dape> ... afterwards, I authenticate service 05:13:39 <dape> ... with authorization I can do queries et cetera 05:14:14 <dape> ... simple queries vs full semantic power 05:14:53 <dape> ... directory can run in cloud, gateway, ... 05:15:51 <dape> ... registration might need to be refrehsed 05:16:22 <dsr> q+ 05:16:36 <kaz> q+ 05:16:39 <kaz> ack manu 05:16:39 <Zakim> manu-wot, you wanted to note always support no jsonld processing. 05:16:40 <dape> ... well-known/td could be used as a "known" entry point 05:16:58 <zkis> q+ 05:17:40 <mlagally> q+ 05:17:43 <dape> DSR: how can I advertise a service that can be tight to a device? 05:18:36 <dape> MCC: discussion with Zoltan about management API 05:19:17 <dape> q? 05:20:10 <dape> DSR: we need to look at this broader aspect.. incubation is good with that regard 05:21:04 <NJ> NJ has joined #wot 05:21:39 <dape> MCC: I do think this is not prevented 05:21:50 <taki> +q 05:22:04 <dape> ack dape 05:22:08 <dape> ack dsr 05:22:10 <kaz> -> https://www.w3.org/TR/2012/NOTE-mmi-discovery-20120705/ MMI registration&discovery UCR Note 05:22:24 <dsr> There will be a market for applications for managing and exploiting devices, and the need for integrating this with the discovery model described bt McCool 05:22:37 <dsr> s/bt/by 05:22:39 <dape> Kaz: Agree, we should generate use-cases for discovery 05:22:47 <dape> q? 05:22:51 <kaz> ack kaz 05:23:13 <kaz> s/Kaz: Agree, we should generate use-cases for discovery// 05:23:14 <dape> ML: where are these requirements coming from? 05:23:25 <dape> MCC: first draft I came up with 05:23:44 <dape> ... need to work on strawpan ... till we have solid set 05:23:52 <kaz> i/There will be/kaz: Agree, we should generate use-cases/requirements document for discovery topic as well. an example document above./ 05:23:53 <dape> q? 05:24:29 <dape> ZK: 2-phase discovery: same rules apply for any other service 05:24:53 <dape> MCC: useful to define TD for discovery/directory 05:25:10 <dsr> Devices could register with a directory in the cloud, enabling users to determine which applications are compatible with their devices. This can be done in ways that protect the user’s privacy 05:25:47 <dape> ZK: pressure on OCF to realize certain discovery service? 05:26:12 <kaz> q? 05:26:16 <kaz> ack zk 05:27:29 <dape> ZK: client API in scripting provides way to identify the type: local, directroy etc... 05:27:42 <dape> .... authentication part of wot runtime 05:28:12 <dape> MCC: It is ok to have diversity 05:28:31 <dape> ... directory should be strict about authentication 05:28:36 <zkis> q? 05:28:57 <dape> ... will write up requirements document to discuss 05:29:46 <dape> Takano: possible to hide id? 05:30:02 <kaz> s/Takano:/Matsuda:/ 05:30:22 <kaz> q? 05:30:24 <kaz> q+ 05:30:49 <dape> MCC: just an idea.... long discussion about alternatives 05:31:50 <dape> ML: Discovery is just one aspect 05:32:00 <yoshiaki_> yoshiaki_ has joined #wot 05:32:06 <dape> ... need to look into industrial use cases for example 05:32:35 <dape> ... there are more aspects of lifecycle 05:32:49 <dape> ... e.g., on boarding, off boarding 05:33:06 <dape> ... suggest to call the activity "lifecycle" 05:33:11 <horiuchi> horiuchi has joined #wot 05:33:26 <dape> MCC: different work item in charter 05:35:13 <dape> ... w.r.t. to discovery and industrial... there might be areas where needed but others where not needed 05:35:43 <dape> ... discovery is entry point for on-boarding 05:35:51 <dape> q? 05:35:57 <horiuchi_> horiuchi_ has joined #wot 05:36:44 <kaz> ack ml 05:36:44 <dape> ML: let's handle lifycyle in architecture 05:36:48 <kaz> ack taki 05:37:12 <dape> Taki: home use-case.... we gonna have profile 05:37:23 <dape> ... we have to think about discovery in smart home 05:37:58 <dape> MCC: profile should specify consumer setup 05:38:17 <zkis> q+ 05:38:44 <dape> ML: guidelines for implementations 05:39:39 <zkis> ack zk 05:39:48 <dape> ZK: on-boarding depends on underlying protocol 05:40:09 <Mizushima> Mizushima has joined #wot 05:40:53 <yoshiaki> yoshiaki has joined #wot 05:40:57 <dape> MCC: specification for discovery is actually a TD describing the service 05:41:36 <dape> Kaz: discussion reminds me about discussion in DID 05:41:55 <dape> ... should keep up the discussion 05:41:55 <kaz> s/about/of/ 05:41:59 <Kris> Kris has joined #wot 05:42:40 <kaz> q? 05:42:44 <kaz> ack kaz 05:42:55 <dape> MCC: Actions 05:43:22 <dape> ... create discovery repo (even though charter has not been approved yet) 05:43:55 <dape> ... start with use cases and requirements 05:44:36 <dape> ... like to see firm status for Singapur IETF 05:46:39 <dape> ... November 16-17 05:47:19 <zkis> q? 05:47:43 <horiuchi> horiuchi has joined #wot 05:47:44 <dape> SK: being open to multiple query languages besides SPARQL 05:48:54 <dape> ... or keyword searches 05:51:11 <kaz> [break till 3:05] 05:51:16 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes 05:51:16 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-wot-minutes.html kaz 05:53:42 <hendo__> hendo__ has joined #wot 05:53:58 <horiuchi_> horiuchi_ has joined #wot 05:54:50 <horiuchi> horiuchi has joined #wot 05:59:35 <yofukami> yofukami has joined #wot 06:00:09 <yoshiaki> yoshiaki has joined #wot 06:02:40 <dezell> dezell has joined #wot 06:07:18 <horiuchi> horiuchi has joined #wot 06:13:04 <kTakano> kTakano has joined #wot 06:15:45 <Suguru> Suguru has joined #wot 06:16:11 <ege> Topic: Architecture, Presenter: Michael Lagally 06:17:30 <kaz> scribenick: ege 06:17:42 <ege> mm: work items ? 06:18:02 <Kris> Kris has joined #wot 06:18:38 <kaz> present+ Kris_McGlinn 06:18:48 <ege> ml: introduction to the architecture document for the observers 06:19:50 <ege> ... (showing the issues page) 06:19:54 <shouqun> shouqun has joined #wot 06:19:57 <ege> ... no new issues since the last call of last week 06:20:41 <ege> ... anybody thinking of an issue? 06:21:02 <kaz> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-architecture/issues WoT Architecture issues 06:21:09 <ege> mm: we are talking about the PR release candidate 06:21:25 <kaz> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-architecture/pulls Pullrequests 06:21:34 <kaz> s/PR/Proposed Recommendation/ 06:21:37 <ege> ... looking at a PR request, number #385 06:21:59 <kaz> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-architecture/pull/385 PR 385 06:22:42 <ege> mm: does security and privacy have any figures 06:24:02 <kaz> -> w3c.github.io/wot-architecture/#toc WoT Architecture Editor's Draft 06:25:04 <ege> mm: we have an issue about security metadata being ambiguous 06:25:44 <inamori_> inamori_ has joined #wot 06:26:25 <ege> ... so the difference between the description/metadata so the securityDefinitions in the TD and the security data such as the keys/tokens 06:26:26 <kaz> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-architecture/pull/385/files Changes 06:26:39 <kaz> -> https://pr-preview.s3.amazonaws.com/w3c/wot-architecture/pull/385.html Preview 06:26:58 <ege> ... figure 25 was also not consistent with the text 06:27:29 <ege> ml: we can fix this quickly 06:27:50 <ege> ... (creates an issue about this) 06:27:53 <ege> mm: I can work on thi 06:28:00 <horiuchi_> horiuchi_ has joined #wot 06:28:13 <ege> s/ thi/this 06:28:18 <kaz> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-architecture/issues/386 Issue 386 06:28:52 <Shinya> Shinya has joined #wot 06:30:43 <ege> ml: shall I merge this PR? 06:31:30 <dezell> dezell has joined #wot 06:31:32 <minami> minami has joined #wot 06:32:32 <horiuchi_> horiuchi_ has joined #wot 06:33:40 <mlagally> https://github.com/w3c/wot-architecture/issues/380 06:33:52 <ege> mm: we have a meeting with privacy group tomorrow 06:34:24 <ege> ... tomorrow 11am 06:35:07 <kaz> s/11am/1pm/ 06:35:09 <ege> ml: if there are any outcomes from the discussion, please put into the issue 06:35:15 <kaz> -> https://www.w3.org/WoT/IG/wiki/F2F_meeting,_16-20_September_2019,_Fukuoka,_Japan#13:00-18:00_Group_Meetings agenda for PING joint session 06:35:57 <kaz> [Kaz notes that the meeting room for PING joint discussion will be this room, Koh on 3F.] 06:37:23 <ege> mm: consider that there are not blocking issues for the PR transition 06:38:27 <mlagally> resolution: The WoT WG does not have any blocking issues for PR transition of the architecture document 06:39:23 <kaz> action: McCool to update the figure 25, 27-29 tonight 06:39:23 <trackbot> Created ACTION-181 - Update the figure 25, 27-29 tonight [on Michael McCool - due 2019-09-26]. 06:39:35 <ege> now is the last day to decide to make change proposals for the specs before going to PR 06:40:16 <ege> ml: recapping from the last session to build the use cases 06:42:25 <ege> ... (looking at the PRs of the w3c/wot repo) 06:42:52 <kaz> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot/pull/862 PR 862 06:43:00 <simonstey> simonstey has left #wot 06:43:09 <kaz> -> https://cdn.statically.io/gh/mmccool/wot/wg-charter-draft/charters/wot-wg-charter-draft-2019.html?env=dev Rendered version 06:43:29 <ege> ... (looking at the work charter draft to fill the architecture use cases) 06:43:45 <zkis_> zkis_ has joined #wot 06:45:22 <ege> ml: we should be cautious to not prescribe too many things 06:46:39 <Mizushima> Mizushima has joined #wot 06:47:39 <ege> ... any additional work items proposed by anyone? 06:47:42 <ege> q? 06:48:30 <ktoumura> ktoumura has joined #wot 06:48:40 <ryuichi> ryuichi has joined #wot 06:51:04 <ege> mm: we need user categories, such as developer, device owner etc. 06:51:40 <ege> ... we want to remove and revise some use cases 06:52:03 <inamori_> inamori_ has joined #wot 06:52:07 <kaz> q+ 06:53:18 <kaz> ack kaz 06:53:18 <ege> mm: once we fix the template I have mentioned in the previous talk, we can start using it to structure the use cases, user categories etc. 06:53:35 <ege> kaz: we should consider using workshop results 06:53:53 <kaz> s/results/results and also maybe Shimmachi-san's input/ 06:57:11 <ege> mm: we need to be clear where we are prescriptive and where descriptive 06:58:25 <ege> kaz: don't forget the ideathon results 06:58:56 <ege> mm: I would have like to be invited, actually we should do it another time where some members of the working group join and explain some things we need 07:00:16 <ege> ... using other STO for the terminology when possible 07:02:00 <ege> ml: (looking at issue 208 of architecture) 07:03:50 <ege> ... (now issue 25, WoT in a browser) 07:04:26 <kaz> i|now|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-architecture/issues/208 Issue 208| 07:04:55 <ege> mm: we need one browser vendor on board to do demo 07:05:07 <kaz> i|we need|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-architecture/issues/25 Issue 25| 07:05:24 <kaz> q+ 07:05:28 <tksuzuki> tksuzuki has joined #wot 07:08:15 <hendo> hendo has joined #wot 07:09:29 <kaz> ack k 07:09:50 <kaz> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-architecture/issues/8 Issue 8 07:10:02 <kaz> q+ 07:11:28 <ege> kaz: invite more people from nyig (?), like X from BBC 07:11:40 <kaz> s/nyig (?)/MEIG/ 07:11:46 <kaz> s/X from/Chris Needham/ 07:12:00 <kaz> s/invite/would suggest we invite/ 07:12:13 <ege> mm: capturing RTSP cameras as Things 07:13:27 <kaz> s/would suggest/on Monday, there was a meeting of MEIG, and NHK made a presentation (and they're participating in WoT PlugFest too :), so I'd suggest/ 07:14:18 <ege> ml: there are already some specs out there who are about streaming 07:15:06 <ege> mm: making it sure to say that we are not defining our own media streaming protocol 07:15:29 <NJ> NJ has joined #wot