IRC log of wot on 2019-09-18
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 23:49:39 [RRSAgent]
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- logging to https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-wot-irc
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- 23:50:19 [matsuda]
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- rrsagent, this meeting spans midnight
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- 23:51:05 [yoshiaki]
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- present+
- 23:51:12 [dsr]
- meeting: Web of Things F2F, TPAC 2019
- 23:51:16 [yofukami]
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- rrsagent, set logs public
- 23:51:31 [dsr]
- chair: McCool
- 23:52:08 [dsr]
- present+
- 23:53:05 [tksuzuki]
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- 23:57:23 [minami]
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- 00:00:00 [kaz]
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- 00:00:33 [ryuichi]
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- 00:01:53 [minobu]
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- 00:02:37 [horiuchi]
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- 00:02:58 [hendo]
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- 00:03:21 [dsr]
- scribenick: dsr
- 00:04:36 [sebastian]
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- 00:04:41 [kawaguch]
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- 00:05:05 [dsr]
- Michael does some agenda bashing including ideas fo future F2F locations.
- 00:05:38 [dsr]
- Topic: Use cases and requirements
- 00:06:09 [hEndo_]
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- 00:06:29 [hirata]
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- 00:06:31 [dsr]
- McCool: The TAG were looking for the WG’s use cases and requirements work, this doesn’t existing in a formal way at present. We should rectify that.
- 00:07:24 [dsr]
- Shows the next steps slide for the Munich WoT workshop
- 00:07:41 [dsr]
- This has 3 columns: update, next and new
- 00:08:10 [dsr]
- The WG Charter proposal relates to the Workshop results
- 00:09:18 [dsr]
- One change is that following input from the Decentralised Identifier WG, McCool has renamed the corresponding work item from Identity to Identifier management.
- 00:10:05 [dsr]
- McCool: any other ideas for the charter?
- 00:10:27 [dsr]
- sebastian: we heard some comments about our approach to eventing …
- 00:10:29 [kaz]
- -> https://www.w3.org/2019/Talks/TPAC/2019-09_WoT-AC.pdf McCool's slides
- 00:11:04 [kaz]
- q+
- 00:11:06 [dsr]
- … some thoughts about testing in respect to eventing
- 00:11:35 [dsr]
- McCool: do we do testing or just interoperability
- 00:12:01 [dsr]
- We have some testing gaps, including eventing
- 00:12:50 [dsr]
- … some discussion about testing toolis
- 00:13:02 [dsr]
- s/toolis/tools
- 00:13:28 [dsr]
- ack kaz
- 00:14:16 [dsr]
- Kaz: one question is how we report the output of the plugfests
- 00:15:07 [dsr]
- Kaz: yesterday’s voice assistant breakout touched upon relation to WoT
- 00:15:29 [dsr]
- McCool: we don’t yet have a work item on accessibility
- 00:15:42 [kaz]
- s/one question is/2 points. first,/
- 00:15:53 [kaz]
- s/yesterday's/2nd, yesterday's/
- 00:16:41 [dsr]
- dsr: this is an opportunity to bring in some accessibility experts into the WG
- 00:16:54 [kaz]
- present+ Kaz_Ashimura, Michael_McCool, Toru_Kawaguchi, Kunihiko_Toumura, Ryuichi_Matsukura, Tetsushi_Matsuda, Takahisa_Suzuki, Dave_Raggett, Daniel_Peintner, Ege_Korkan
- 00:17:49 [dsr]
- Topic: Ideation
- 00:18:59 [kaz]
- present+ David_Ezell, Arnaud_LeHors, Sebastian_Kaebisch, Yoshiaki_Fukami, Suguru_Washio, Taki_Kamiya, Tomoaki_Mizushima, Hayato_Shinmachi
- 00:19:16 [dsr]
- Slides on possible use cases for 2nd generation of WoT standard
- 00:19:34 [dsr]
- Presented by NRI
- 00:20:26 [dsr]
- (slides to be archived later)
- 00:20:33 [inamori_]
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- 00:21:07 [dsr]
- Japanese Web community have been thinking about ideas for future WoT standards
- 00:21:19 [kaz]
- present+ Minobu_Abe, Takuki_Nankou, Shinjiro_Urata, Kaname_Takano, Diego_Ferreiro, Keisuke_Minami, Hiroki_Endo, Nonoka_Jinushi, Hiroshi_Fujisawa, Takeshi_Yamada, Tetsuhiko_Hirata, Shinya_Abe
- 00:21:40 [kaz]
- s/Ideation/Ideathon/
- 00:21:56 [dsr]
- (NRI = Nomura Research Institute)
- 00:22:28 [kaz]
- @@@slides tbd
- 00:22:49 [kaz]
- rrsagetn, make log public
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- rrsagent, make log public
- 00:22:55 [dsr]
- An “Ideathon” took place on 23-24 August 2019 with 22 participants
- 00:23:02 [kaz]
- s/rrsagetn, make log public//
- 00:23:07 [kaz]
- rrsagent, draft minutes
- 00:23:07 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-wot-minutes.html kaz
- 00:23:43 [dsr]
- Slides full of detailed content (very small print)
- 00:24:52 [dsr]
- One example is a “Poop checker”
- 00:25:32 [kaz]
- s/fo future/for future/
- 00:25:38 [dsr]
- This is a medical diagnosis application
- 00:26:11 [kaz]
- i/Michael does some/topic: Logistics and Agenda discussion/
- 00:26:48 [dsr]
- and comes with a list of potential devices, e.g. toilet with sensors, smart speaker etc.
- 00:27:21 [dsr]
- and some requirements related to the WoT WG charter
- 00:29:02 [dsr]
- Michael: that reminds me that we have yet to address orchestration across multiple devices
- 00:29:32 [dsr]
- 2nd use case involving a camping car
- 00:30:03 [dsr]
- (mobile home)
- 00:31:02 [kaz]
- present+ Ken_Ebert, Phil_Archer
- 00:35:24 [inamori_]
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- 00:35:59 [dsr]
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- 00:36:19 [kaz]
- q?
- 00:36:39 [dsr]
- 3rd use case is a security robot, e.g. to inform people when someone is breaking into their home
- 00:36:40 [hfuji]
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- 00:36:44 [sebastian]
- q+
- 00:36:49 [dsr]
- This is an autonomous vehicle …
- 00:36:56 [dsr]
- the use case also includes wearable devices
- 00:37:01 [dsr]
- the use case also includes wearable devices
- 00:37:04 [kaz]
- ack seb
- 00:37:11 [dsr]
- 3rd use case is a security robot, e.g. to inform people when someone is breaking into their home
- 00:37:16 [McCool]
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- 00:38:19 [dsr]
- This use case has requirements in respect to: link relation types, interoperability profile, complex interactions, discovery, privacy and security
- 00:38:37 [horiuchi_]
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- 00:39:13 [sebastian]
- q?
- 00:39:35 [dsr]
- Dave: I am involved in a new European research project (GATEKEEPER) on applying WoT to healthcare, including early diagnosis of medical conditions
- 00:40:14 [dsr]
- McCool: we are especially interested in new requirements
- 00:40:41 [dsr]
- some discussion on linking types
- 00:41:39 [dsr]
- McCool: is there a way to ask the workshop participants in case we have questions?
- 00:41:48 [dsr]
- Answer: yes
- 00:41:52 [dsr]
- (via email)
- 00:42:48 [dsr]
- McCool: I will shortly talk about a template for use case descriptions for our work item on use cases and requirements
- 00:43:48 [dsr]
- In the context of these slides - what columns we expect
- 00:44:17 [hfuji]
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- 00:44:38 [dsr]
- The slides have idea (title), overview (short description), devices involved and data (what data is involved)
- 00:45:18 [dsr]
- sebastian: I like this general approach, but also like preconditions, the goal to be reached and the expected outcome for each use case
- 00:47:25 [dsr]
- Are we describing a problem only or a problem and a solution to that problem
- 00:48:18 [dsr]
- slides providing a summary of the ideathon
- 00:49:04 [shouqun]
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- 00:49:23 [dsr]
- (text too small to see from back of room)
- 00:53:29 [dsr]
- One challenge is who will pay for sensors in public spaces
- 00:53:49 [dsr]
- The method of trading data, …
- 00:54:15 [dsr]
- An issue of how we can set up databases
- 00:54:57 [dsr]
- Role of local government and secure management of data
- 00:55:35 [dsr]
- Any questions? [no]
- 00:56:08 [ryuichi]
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- 00:56:11 [dsr]
- [round of applause in thanks for the NRI input]
- 00:56:45 [dsr]
- Michael shows slides on use cases and requirements
- 00:57:04 [kaz]
- @@@slides tbd
- 00:57:51 [dsr]
- The TAG asked us to prepare more formal use cases and requirements. Alan Bird further suggested we should note the business justification for use cases.
- 00:58:18 [dsr]
- We also need to ensure that the use cases have the consensus of the WG
- 00:58:40 [dape_]
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- 00:58:44 [dsr]
- We further need to do this before starting significant work
- 00:58:44 [hirata]
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- 00:59:27 [dsr]
- Where work has already started, we need to go back and document the use cases that justify the work
- 00:59:48 [dsr]
- Michael proposes some ideas for templates for use cases
- 01:00:51 [dsr]
- The suggestion that we start with a concise user story - as a type of user, I want to achieve some goal so that some thing is realised
- 01:01:36 [dsr]
- e.g. as a developer I want ease of use so that I can develop WoT apps faster
- 01:01:59 [dsr]
- We need to define categories of users
- 01:02:44 [dsr]
- We should classify the use cases into those that are accepted, those that are proposed and awaiting a decision, and those that are rejected
- 01:02:53 [dezell]
- q+
- 01:03:16 [dsr]
- We can start by brain storming some some possible requirements
- 01:03:28 [dsr]
- and then decide which ones are crucial
- 01:04:04 [dsr]
- We should try to define the problem but not the technical solution
- 01:04:42 [kaz]
- q?
- 01:04:45 [dsr]
- ack dezell
- 01:05:24 [dsr]
- dezell: rejected is a little harsh as a term, use cases should be archived even if not deemed important
- 01:06:10 [dsr]
- Michael: some use cases could be out of scope
- 01:06:26 [dsr]
- Similar approach is needed for the WG’s design decisions
- 01:06:41 [dsr]
- We need a clear process and record of decisions
- 01:07:29 [dsr]
- Which decisions were accepted and which were rejected
- 01:07:44 [kaz]
- q+
- 01:07:46 [dsr]
- sebastian: what kind of use cases would we want?
- 01:08:24 [dsr]
- Michael: my view is that use cases should be user oriented, e.g. as a businessman, I want to …
- 01:09:09 [dsr]
- Dave: we should emphasise use cases that motivate companies to adopt and exploit the web of things
- 01:09:43 [kaz]
- -> https://w3c.github.io/mmi/usecases/Overview.html mmi use cases
- 01:10:09 [dsr]
- Michael: the issue tracker tends to be a little free form, and we need to extract and formalise our descriptions of use cases, requirements and design decisions
- 01:10:28 [kaz]
- ack k
- 01:11:03 [kaz]
- kaz: agree it would be nicer to have a compiled document (and provides an example above)
- 01:11:26 [dsr]
- Michael slows his ideas for how we could apply this to WoT profiles as an example of a template structure
- 01:11:35 [Suguru]
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- 01:12:03 [dsr]
- [link?]
- 01:12:36 [kaz]
- -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-profile/blob/master/REQUIREMENTS.md Michael's initial proposal
- 01:13:22 [dsr]
- Michael talks us through the proposed structure
- 01:13:59 [kaz]
- s|/w3c/|/mmcool/|
- 01:14:51 [dsr]
- Michael: for example as a home user, I want to know that a given device will work in my home environment
- 01:16:23 [dsr]
- The next step is to turn this into an actual template
- 01:16:50 [dsr]
- Kaz: we could start with this and use github issues for managing use cases
- 01:17:41 [dsr]
- Any comments on this template? [no]
- 01:17:43 [kaz]
- s/managing use cases/managing use cases, but we need to generate a compiled use cases document in the end./
- 01:17:52 [dsr]
- sebastian: what is the timeline for this work?
- 01:19:01 [dezell]
- q+ to ask about process and reference
- 01:19:31 [dsr]
- Michael: I think by March, we should have this in a good shape
- 01:19:38 [hendo__]
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- 01:20:28 [dsr]
- Dave:do you expect to have both use cases and requirements and design decisions by March?
- 01:20:41 [dsr]
- Michael: there’s actually four things …
- 01:21:25 [dsr]
- Dave: another point is how we can relate this to our horizontal review plan
- 01:21:27 [horiuchi]
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- 01:21:47 [dsr]
- Michael: we need to get such review early and often
- 01:22:36 [dezell]
- q-
- 01:22:48 [dsr]
- Dave: we need to ask for review when we have work in a good enough state for reviewers to justify their time
- 01:23:36 [kaz]
- -> https://w3c.github.io/mmi/usecases/Overview.html MMI use case document as another example
- 01:23:49 [hEndo]
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- 01:23:51 [McCool]
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- 01:23:59 [kaz]
- -> https://w3c.github.io/mmi/usecases/Overview.html MMI use case document as another example
- 01:24:37 [dsr]
- Michael shows the MMI WG’s WG Note for their use cases
- 01:25:15 [dsr]
- These seem to lack a clear structure
- 01:26:06 [ryuichi]
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- 01:26:35 [dsr]
- The motivation has some questions in italics from a template
- 01:27:02 [dsr]
- s/These seem to lack a clear structure//
- 01:27:07 [dape]
- q+
- 01:27:33 [dsr]
- Michael: the use case needs to clarify the time sequencing in the story
- 01:27:56 [dsr]
- dezell: how do you differentiate a use case from a use story?
- 01:28:12 [dsr]
- s/use story/user story
- 01:29:00 [horiuchi]
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- 01:29:00 [dsr]
- Michael: a use case is more formal
- 01:29:23 [dsr]
- dezell: I am happy whichever way you go, but please be consistent
- 01:30:23 [minobu]
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- 01:30:27 [dape]
- http://w3c.github.io/wot/ucr-doc/
- 01:30:43 [dsr]
- Dave: we could talk to the TAG, and ask in the chairs list for comments and input on the process and templates for use cases
- 01:31:35 [dsr]
- Michael: we should allocate further time for this in future calls
- 01:32:05 [dsr]
- Kaz: do we want to set up a task force to guide this?
- 01:32:22 [horiuchi]
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- 01:32:36 [dsr]
- Michael: let’s discuss that in the next call as we’re out of time now
- 01:33:05 [kaz]
- [break till 10:45]
- 01:33:11 [kaz]
- rrsagent, draft minutes
- 01:33:11 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-wot-minutes.html kaz
- 01:33:22 [yoshiaki]
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- 01:52:04 [dezell]
- scribenick: dezell
- 01:52:16 [dsr]
- Topic: WoT Testing Framework
- 01:52:28 [dezell]
- Topic: WoT Testing Framework
- 01:52:42 [dezell]
- presenter: Ege Korkan, Siemens AG
- 01:53:24 [Shinya]
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- 01:53:30 [dezell]
- ege: working move the playground to the JSON-LD model
- 01:54:17 [minobu]
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- 01:54:47 [dezell]
- See: https://github.com/thingweb/thingweb-playground
- 01:54:55 [kaz]
- @@@ slides tbd
- 01:55:02 [dezell]
- (Note: presentation will be linked from the agenda.
- 01:55:29 [Mizushima]
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- 01:56:07 [dezell]
- ege: new features - live validation, saving TD as a gist online, filling the editor with an example TD
- 01:56:15 [dezell]
- ...: a gist must always be valid.
- 01:56:26 [dape]
- q+
- 01:57:00 [McCool]
- q?
- 01:57:08 [horiuchi]
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- 01:57:25 [dezell]
- kaz: thought there would be some automatic saving.
- 01:57:50 [dezell]
- xyzzy: there is some confusion on this point, it's more of the capability to share.
- 01:58:09 [dezell]
- McCool: we also need to "feed" some repository.
- 01:58:52 [kaz]
- s/xyzzy:/daniel:/
- 01:59:22 [dezell]
- ege: the idea is to make creating a new TD simple and quick.
- 01:59:27 [hirata]
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- 01:59:54 [dezell]
- McCool: a selection of templates might be a good idea.
- 02:00:25 [Suguru]
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- 02:00:33 [dezell]
- ege: more new features - optional assertion testing on front-end, importing a TD, better error messages.
- 02:01:18 [dezell]
- McCool: error could link back to TD to explain what failed.
- 02:01:40 [dezell]
- ege: (demo of the page for Thing Description Playground)
- 02:01:48 [dape]
- http://plugfest.thingweb.io/playground/
- 02:02:05 [kaz]
- present+ Eric_Siow, Yefeng_Xia
- 02:02:42 [horiuchi_]
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- 02:02:46 [dezell]
- ...: there is the ability to enter an example invalid TD to check operations.
- 02:03:19 [dezell]
- McCool: we need to see all the errors, not just the most recent.
- 02:04:09 [naomi]
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- 02:04:10 [dezell]
- ege: the tool will automatically validate the TD, with line/column.
- 02:04:12 [naomi]
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- 02:05:02 [dezell]
- ...: "gistify" allows you to name and save the contents. But you must be logged in to save.
- 02:06:04 [dape]
- https://gist.github.com/
- 02:07:07 [dezell]
- ...: so you can save these TDs without resorting to external storage.
- 02:07:43 [dezell]
- McCool: It would be great to have this automatic checking available for people to use with their own repos (on checkin).
- 02:08:10 [dezell]
- ...: "integrated tooling for git."
- 02:08:43 [dezell]
- ege: question - do we want to make the set of "gists" somehow official?
- 02:09:13 [kaz]
- s/thought there would be some automatic saving./do you mean all the TD submission would be automatically validated every time using some plugin (like pr-preview)?/
- 02:10:15 [dezell]
- McCool: we should talk about whether we want TD integrated into regular W3C git repositories.
- 02:11:09 [kaz]
- present+ Shouqun_Liu
- 02:11:10 [dezell]
- dsr: there's a lot of complexity about using W3C logos or making broad claims about compatibility.
- 02:11:27 [dezell]
- ...: reports of compliance are always based on trust (today).
- 02:11:53 [dezell]
- McCool: but it would be helpful to know that trust is backed up with tests.
- 02:12:18 [dezell]
- sebastian: can you query all tests related to a TD (gist).
- 02:12:33 [dezell]
- s/)\./)\?/
- 02:13:12 [dezell]
- ege: you can explore your gists, but there's no direct query - github doesn't know a gist from other things that you put in there.
- 02:14:10 [dezell]
- ...: we could improve things by allowing >only< gists.
- 02:15:29 [dezell]
- ...: future work - should we have ... 1) script based validation as an npm package, 2) a server to send TDs and get validation results.
- 02:16:31 [dezell]
- McCool: a separate server would be helpful for those who don't want to install Node.
- 02:16:58 [dezell]
- ege: behavior testing:
- 02:17:20 [dezell]
- ...: - tool to fuzz test all interactions of the TD
- 02:17:42 [dezell]
- ...: - test bench is being updated to generate .csv
- 02:18:47 [dezell]
- ...: Also ability to test external things against TD (e.g., messages are schema valid)
- 02:19:58 [dezell]
- McCool: this discussion raises the issue "are properties static"?
- 02:20:56 [dezell]
- ege: deployment options - need opinions:
- 02:21:04 [dezell]
- ...: - as an online server
- 02:21:17 [dezell]
- ...: - installing locally (own machine)
- 02:21:31 [dezell]
- ...: - testing from own browser (limited to HTTP)
- 02:22:18 [dezell]
- s/server/server, allows only online exposed things/
- 02:22:54 [dezell]
- s/machine/machine, installation overhead/
- 02:23:58 [dezell]
- McCool: seems there are two cases - testing real devices and testing simulated devices.
- 02:24:02 [dezell]
- ...: need to do both.
- 02:24:22 [dezell]
- ...: "browser" option is a convenience for getting started.
- 02:25:37 [dezell]
- daniel: first and third are the same in terms of the UI, whereas the second is potentially different.
- 02:26:40 [dezell]
- ege: consumer testing (consumes messages)
- 02:26:57 [minami]
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- 02:27:36 [dezell]
- ...: clinet-data-schema, client-data-schema-accept-extras, client-data-schema-no-extras, client-uri-template
- 02:28:24 [dezell]
- ...: given a TD, npm can create a Virtual Thing: can generate a report, or be hosted online on Thingweb.
- 02:29:18 [dezell]
- ...: important to identify TDs that cover many features, making sure of a thorough client test.
- 02:30:27 [dezell]
- McCool: would like to use virtual things for testing, but also monitor traffic between a real thing and real client and diagnose the health.
- 02:31:09 [Suguru_]
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- 02:32:29 [dezell]
- ege: behavior testing: break them
- 02:32:52 [dezell]
- ...: - safety testing (invalid inputs to exposed thing, returning invalid data to consumers)
- 02:33:34 [dezell]
- ...: - security testing (pen-testing based on security information, invalid security information on ETs)
- 02:33:45 [dezell]
- s/exposed thing/Exposed Thing/
- 02:34:43 [dezell]
- McCool: any questions?
- 02:34:50 [dezell]
- Answer [no].
- 02:35:05 [taki]
- scribe: TK
- 02:35:10 [taki]
- scribenick: taki
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- 02:36:17 [Mizushima]
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- 02:36:36 [taki]
- Sebastian: wants to discuss WoT Web Presence.
- 02:36:58 [taki]
- Sebastian: first set of deliverables are ready soon.
- 02:37:16 [taki]
- Sebastian: I met lots of poeple who are interested.
- 02:37:44 [taki]
- Sebastian: It is difficult to provide something for them to read and learn, such as introduction.
- 02:38:01 [kaz]
- i/wants to discuss WoT Web Presence/topic: Marketing/
- 02:38:08 [taki]
- Sebastian: I am contributing to other consortia. OPC-UA, eClass, etc.
- 02:38:11 [naomi]
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- 02:38:38 [taki]
- Sebastian: easiest way is first to fix our web page.
- 02:38:43 [Mizushima_]
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- 02:38:48 [taki]
- Sebastian: we have plenty of web pages now on W3C site.
- 02:39:05 [taki]
- Sebastian: Not very helpful for newcomes.
- 02:39:14 [taki]
- Sebastian: they do not care IG/WG etc.
- 02:39:17 [Suguru]
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- 02:39:27 [taki]
- McCool: entry point is important.
- 02:39:43 [taki]
- McCool: other pages can be elsewhere.
- 02:40:12 [taki]
- Eric: WoT is messed up, complicated multiple IoT/
- 02:40:23 [kaz]
- s/entry point/the WoT landing page as the entry point/
- 02:40:42 [taki]
- Eric: people not engineer want to deploy smart city, etc.
- 02:40:59 [taki]
- Eric: will hire consultant.
- 02:41:13 [taki]
- Eric: They look at W3C WoT side. it does not resonate now.
- 02:41:23 [taki]
- Eric: business people control budget.
- 02:41:33 [taki]
- Eric: cannot only cater engineer.
- 02:41:46 [taki]
- Eric: have to communicate to business people who control budget.
- 02:42:03 [taki]
- Eric: need to think abuot customer base.
- 02:42:56 [taki]
- Eric: slide show / video show that describes problem statement (e.g. smart city). Up-level it, script it so that business people can understand.
- 02:43:15 [taki]
- McCool: up-level does not necessarily mean abstract. still needs to be concrete.
- 02:43:26 [taki]
- McCool: we need concrete examples.
- 02:43:40 [taki]
- Eric: up-level means speaking to architect.
- 02:44:06 [taki]
- Sebastian: Next question. where are pain points now?
- 02:44:14 [taki]
- Sebastian: three different web pages.
- 02:44:34 [taki]
- Sebastian: newcomers think what are the relationship?
- 02:44:45 [taki]
- McCool: entry point should describe that.
- 02:44:55 [taki]
- Daniel: the pages should look the same.
- 02:45:12 [taki]
- McCool: they can search and get to sub-page.
- 02:45:26 [taki]
- McCool: we can re-design URI
- 02:45:31 [taki]
- s/URI/UI/
- 02:45:50 [taki]
- Daniel: home button etc. UI needs to be consistent.
- 02:45:56 [taki]
- McCool: normalization.
- 02:46:07 [taki]
- McCool: and there is structure issue.
- 02:46:12 [Suguru_]
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- 02:46:49 [taki]
- McCool: navigation issue is one.
- 02:47:07 [Suguru]
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- 02:47:37 [taki]
- McCool: we need volunteers.
- 02:47:42 [hiata]
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- 02:47:51 [taki]
- McCool: to fix navigation problem immediately.
- 02:47:51 [dezell]
- q+
- 02:48:06 [taki]
- Daniel: three different pages now.
- 02:48:24 [taki]
- McCool: longer term, we need to clean up.
- 02:48:36 [dape]
- ack dape
- 02:49:00 [taki]
- Dave: there are short-time and long-time issues.
- 02:49:30 [taki]
- Daniel: current status, goals and how to get there. we need to think about this.
- 02:50:03 [taki]
- Sebastian: we are staring a new charter. need to think about branding.
- 02:50:26 [taki]
- Eric: How do you explain DID to laymen.
- 02:50:58 [horiuchi]
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- 02:51:06 [taki]
- Eric: I have my own "close line".
- 02:51:24 [taki]
- Eric: to explain complex thing to laymen.
- 02:51:35 [taki]
- Eric: I can help in this effort.
- 02:52:02 [taki]
- David: domains are important.
- 02:52:33 [taki]
- Dave: top-level entry page is up to us.
- 02:52:52 [taki]
- David: It used to be cleverer before.
- 02:53:27 [taki]
- McCool: what resource does W3C have for help?
- 02:53:32 [taki]
- Dave: very little.
- 02:54:15 [taki]
- Dave: use cases is more important than navigation issue.
- 02:54:32 [taki]
- McCool: Do we want to create marketing TF?
- 02:54:46 [taki]
- Sebastian: We used to have marketing TF before.
- 02:55:08 [taki]
- McCool: It is a short-time focused project.
- 02:55:24 [taki]
- McCool: Dave and Kaz can initially help on landing page issue.
- 02:55:52 [taki]
- Daniel: we tried before, but there were lots of restrictions by W3C.
- 02:56:01 [taki]
- Dave: I can help on getting permission.
- 02:56:02 [hirata]
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- 02:56:12 [taki]
- Dave: W3C has flat structure.
- 02:56:24 [taki]
- Dave: each group has independence.
- 02:56:29 [kaz]
- q+
- 02:56:53 [taki]
- Dave: we first need to think about function.
- 02:57:15 [taki]
- Dave: then think about what do we want to say.
- 02:57:57 [taki]
- McCool: let's separate short-term and long-term tasks.
- 02:58:07 [taki]
- McCool: Landing page content is long-term.
- 02:58:43 [naomi]
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- 02:58:46 [Mizushima]
- Mizushima has joined #wot
- 02:59:03 [taki]
- McCool: there are also medium term tasks such as launching landing pages.
- 02:59:25 [taki]
- Kaz: we need to think about concrete use cases and requirements about this.
- 02:59:46 [kaz]
- -> https://www.w3.org/2019/html/ html wg page
- 03:00:04 [taki]
- Kaz: HTML WG has automatically generated page, for example. I am not proposing anything.
- 03:00:31 [taki]
- Kaz: Our WG page and IG page can be automatic.
- 03:00:41 [taki]
- Daniel: we should reduce complexity.
- 03:00:53 [taki]
- Daniel: from business people's perspective.
- 03:01:00 [taki]
- Kaz: I am not suggeting anything.
- 03:01:08 [taki]
- Kaz: We need to clarify issues.
- 03:01:38 [taki]
- McCool: we can incrementally change instead of radical big change.
- 03:01:51 [kaz]
- s/issues/issues and requirements, i.e., what kind of information should be included in which page/
- 03:01:58 [taki]
- Dave: we need to regularly invest time.
- 03:02:11 [taki]
- McCool: let's think about action items.
- 03:02:28 [taki]
- McCool: marketing TF sill the end of year.
- 03:02:35 [taki]
- McCool: we need a repo.
- 03:02:39 [kaz]
- s/Our WG page and IG page can be automatic/possibly our WG pae and IG page can be automatically generated like that./
- 03:02:43 [taki]
- McCool: we need to discuss in main call.
- 03:02:54 [taki]
- McCool: somebody needs to make strawman proposal.
- 03:03:15 [taki]
- McCool: we need to define concrete action items.
- 03:03:29 [taki]
- Dave: we need to invest time.
- 03:03:33 [kaz]
- s/I am not suggesting anything./please note that I'm not suggesting we should use this automatic generation mechanism for WoT. This is just one of the possible options/
- 03:03:44 [hirata]
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- 03:03:57 [taki]
- McCool: I am also going to joint marketing TF.
- 03:03:59 [kaz]
- s/We need to/My point is that we need to/
- 03:04:12 [taki]
- Sebastian: at least fix the short-time tasks by the next F2F.
- 03:04:14 [kaz]
- s/going to joint/going to join the/
- 03:04:30 [taki]
- McCool: obviously wrong things.
- 03:04:43 [taki]
- McCool: eg. delete ancient content.
- 03:05:01 [taki]
- Dave: procedure?
- 03:05:19 [taki]
- McCool: Sebastian to create strawman.
- 03:05:33 [taki]
- Ege: twitter account can be considered.
- 03:05:43 [taki]
- McCool: it is a long term task.
- 03:06:01 [taki]
- McCool: let's create a wikipage for marketing TF.
- 03:06:12 [taki]
- Kaz: and GitHub right?
- 03:06:21 [taki]
- McCool: yes and doodle poll.
- 03:06:41 [taki]
- McCool: task list should be discussed using email.
- 03:07:11 [taki]
- McCool: 2 weeks from now we have a main call and have strawman discussed.
- 03:08:33 [kaz]
- [lunch till 1pm; room locked till 12:50]
- 03:13:21 [naomi]
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- 04:04:26 [azaroth]
- present+ Rob_Sanderson
- 04:04:31 [gkellogg_]
- present+ Gregg_Kellogg
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- 04:04:43 [azaroth]
- present+ ivan
- 04:04:47 [azaroth]
- present+ bigbluehat
- 04:04:50 [ssstolk]
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- 04:06:57 [Kris]
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- 04:07:18 [kaz]
- scribenick: kaz
- 04:07:21 [dezell]
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- 04:07:28 [dezell]
- present+
- 04:07:39 [kaz]
- topic: Joint Meeting with JSON-LD WG
- 04:07:55 [ryuichi]
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- 04:08:03 [kaz]
- sk: we had good discussion during TPAC 2018
- 04:08:07 [dape]
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- 04:08:15 [kaz]
- ... helpful to clarify issues
- 04:08:45 [kaz]
- ... would talk about the current status and issues closed
- 04:08:56 [kaz]
- ... unfortunately, Victor is not here
- 04:09:14 [inamori_]
- inamori_ has joined #wot
- 04:09:14 [kaz]
- ... he takes care of the mapping, etc.
- 04:09:23 [kaz]
- @@@slides tbd
- 04:09:29 [kaz]
- sk: 2 topics here
- 04:09:39 [kaz]
- ... container object for TD security definition
- 04:09:49 [kaz]
- ... and
- 04:10:13 [zkis]
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- 04:10:17 [kaz]
- ... note on the difference between a JSON-LD context and an RDF vocab
- 04:10:28 [kaz]
- ih: magic source :)
- 04:10:44 [kaz]
- sk: what are the LD features, etc.
- 04:10:52 [kaz]
- mm: one more thing about JSON vs JSON-LD
- 04:11:04 [kaz]
- ... maybe would add a new feature?
- 04:11:22 [kaz]
- sk: wot architecture issue?
- 04:11:24 [kaz]
- mm: right
- 04:11:36 [kaz]
- ... nice to consider that issue as well
- 04:11:54 [kaz]
- ih: for the last one, we'll have a session about that
- 04:12:09 [kaz]
- ... at 2pm during the JSON-LD meeting
- 04:12:14 [ege]
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- 04:12:59 [kaz]
- ms: how to address who wants to use JSON vs JSON-LD?
- 04:13:02 [ege]
- ege has joined #wot
- 04:13:08 [kaz]
- ... if we have time, let's chat about that
- 04:13:31 [kaz]
- sk: let's start with the first issue
- 04:13:36 [kaz]
- ... [Container Objects]
- 04:13:55 [kaz]
- ... use case: a WoT developer writes a TD for a "Thing" ...
- 04:14:05 [kaz]
- ... [Container Objects (example TD)]
- 04:14:12 [zkis]
- present+ Zoltan_Kis
- 04:14:22 [kaz]
- ... left side: the current TD
- 04:14:27 [kaz]
- ... right side: new proposal
- 04:14:38 [kaz]
- ... (enlarge the example TD)
- 04:15:17 [kaz]
- ... security scheme is mandatory
- 04:15:29 [kaz]
- ... then you can assign some interactions here
- 04:15:38 [kaz]
- ... which scheme to be applied
- 04:15:46 [kaz]
- ... basic, basic and psk
- 04:15:49 [kaz]
- ... on the right hand
- 04:16:04 [kaz]
- s/new proposal/no container/
- 04:16:16 [kaz]
- ... equivalent TD with no container
- 04:16:42 [kaz]
- ... unexpected repetition of "basic" here and there
- 04:16:59 [kaz]
- ... w3c/json-ld-syntax
- 04:17:13 [sebastian]
- sebastian has joined #wot
- 04:17:15 [sebastian]
- https://github.com/w3c/json-ld-syntax/issues/19
- 04:17:29 [kaz]
- s/syntax/syntax issue 19/
- 04:17:38 [kaz]
- ... Indexing without a predicate
- 04:17:42 [azaroth]
- The resolution for api#19 resulted in this section of the current spec: https://www.w3.org/TR/json-ld11/#included-nodes
- 04:17:49 [kaz]
- ... (shows the example data)
- 04:18:02 [kaz]
- s/.../sk: /
- 04:18:14 [kaz]
- sk: maybe you can comment on this
- 04:18:41 [kaz]
- azaroth: issue 19 resolution above
- 04:18:53 [kaz]
- ... (shows 4.7 Included Nodes)
- 04:19:01 [kaz]
- ... there are 2 nodes
- 04:19:19 [kaz]
- ... minor change here
- 04:19:28 [kaz]
- ... id was a key for match
- 04:19:41 [kaz]
- ... (enum#c6 and enum#s2)
- 04:20:06 [kaz]
- ... classification for the same URI
- 04:20:36 [kaz]
- ... this could be a solution for your issue
- 04:20:52 [kaz]
- ... here is the definition (Example 104)
- 04:21:38 [kaz]
- gk: inline or embed
- 04:21:48 [kaz]
- mm: question is normalization
- 04:21:59 [kaz]
- ... normalized version may be clean
- 04:22:18 [kaz]
- sk: update context by included nodes
- 04:22:23 [kaz]
- ... sounds good
- 04:23:44 [kaz]
- gk: note that not included in the context any more
- 04:24:22 [kaz]
- azaroth: options to offer inline or embed
- 04:24:31 [kaz]
- sk: sounds very good
- 04:24:43 [kaz]
- ... next
- 04:24:49 [kaz]
- ... Context vs Vocabulary
- 04:25:06 [kaz]
- ... how to make this clearer?
- 04:25:28 [kaz]
- ... many people have a look at context
- 04:25:34 [kaz]
- ... class definition here
- 04:25:38 [kaz]
- ... but based on RDF
- 04:26:12 [kaz]
- azaroth: one of the non-REC track document about primer
- 04:26:14 [ktoumura]
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- 04:26:20 [kaz]
- ... nice to describe this point
- 04:26:32 [kaz]
- ... we expect to work on a primer
- 04:26:48 [kaz]
- ... explain JSON-LD to more developers
- 04:27:30 [kaz]
- gk: in JSON-LD 1.0, we didn't really talked about the issue
- 04:27:49 [kaz]
- ... similar to other RDF notation
- 04:28:25 [azaroth]
- q?
- 04:28:59 [kaz]
- ack dezell
- 04:29:01 [kaz]
- ack kaz
- 04:29:04 [kaz]
- ack ...
- 04:29:04 [Zakim]
- ..., you wanted to comment on the right
- 04:29:36 [kaz]
- sk: there is discussion on automotive vocabulary
- 04:29:42 [kaz]
- ... could be reused for WoT purposes
- 04:30:18 [azaroth]
- q+
- 04:30:30 [kaz]
- ms: here is a real problem
- 04:30:55 [hEndo]
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- 04:32:27 [kaz]
- ... we need to think about a tool so that people don't need to understand the detail of RDF
- 04:32:40 [pchampin]
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- 04:32:50 [horiuchi]
- horiuchi has joined #wot
- 04:33:10 [kaz]
- mm: good idea to have a simple framework for that
- 04:35:02 [kaz]
- mm: naive people don't care RDF at all
- 04:35:14 [azaroth]
- ack azaroth
- 04:35:33 [kaz]
- azaroth: confusion about what "mapping" means
- 04:35:49 [kaz]
- ... RDF class to resource
- 04:35:55 [kaz]
- ... only for mapping existing terms
- 04:36:02 [kaz]
- ... not creating new data
- 04:36:17 [bigbluehat]
- q+ ssstolk
- 04:36:39 [kaz]
- ih: you define constraint
- 04:36:59 [bigbluehat]
- q+ bigbluehat
- 04:37:00 [kaz]
- ... it's a super version of abbreviation
- 04:37:04 [minobu]
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- 04:37:17 [horiuchi]
- horiuchi has joined #wot
- 04:37:18 [kaz]
- ... not only listing but describing
- 04:37:33 [azaroth]
- ack ssstolk
- 04:37:36 [kaz]
- mm: maybe related to another issue on validation too
- 04:37:38 [yoshiaki]
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- 04:38:01 [kaz]
- ssstolk: there is a construction infrastructure
- 04:38:13 [kaz]
- ... help create semantic definitions
- 04:38:22 [kaz]
- ... magic terms as linked data
- 04:38:27 [kaz]
- ... want to share
- 04:39:11 [azaroth]
- ack bigbluehat
- 04:39:19 [kaz]
- ... need to consider what is relevant to users
- 04:39:30 [kaz]
- q+ mccool
- 04:39:56 [kaz]
- bigbluehat: not going to the context but another resource
- 04:40:03 [kaz]
- ack mc
- 04:40:11 [azaroth]
- q+ manu
- 04:40:12 [kaz]
- mm: good example is security vocabulary
- 04:40:38 [kaz]
- ... now we're using JSON Schema
- 04:40:49 [kaz]
- ... problem with additional features
- 04:40:54 [gkellogg_]
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- 04:41:00 [manu-wot]
- manu-wot has joined #wot
- 04:41:08 [kaz]
- ... how to validate the extensiosn
- 04:41:15 [kaz]
- s/extensiosn/extensions/
- 04:41:17 [manu-wot]
- Q+
- 04:41:22 [bigbluehat]
- q+
- 04:41:22 [matsuda]
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- 04:41:26 [azaroth]
- q- manu
- 04:41:29 [kaz]
- ih: another WG working on JSON-LD vocabulary
- 04:41:41 [kaz]
- ... we can normatively refer it
- 04:41:52 [kaz]
- ... SHACL is probably a machine gun
- 04:42:01 [kaz]
- ... become complicated
- 04:42:06 [kaz]
- ... it depends what you need
- 04:42:18 [kaz]
- ... JSON Schema may be alright
- 04:42:24 [kaz]
- q+ mccool
- 04:42:27 [azaroth]
- ack manu-wot
- 04:42:42 [kaz]
- ms: in VCWG, we have the same issue
- 04:42:43 [azaroth]
- q+ to ask if extensions live in a particular property, or can be anywhere
- 04:42:52 [kaz]
- ... variety of different languages
- 04:43:03 [kaz]
- ... we can say this object conforms to this schema
- 04:43:11 [kaz]
- ... whatever schema to be included
- 04:43:17 [kaz]
- ... that said
- 04:43:24 [kaz]
- ... very strong preference for JSON Schema
- 04:43:41 [kaz]
- q?
- 04:44:02 [kaz]
- ... a lot of APIs would take data in the auth of wire
- 04:44:14 [kaz]
- ... most implementations force you to give JSON in a certain form
- 04:44:31 [yoshiaki_]
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- 04:44:40 [kaz]
- ... use of JSON Schema help us enforce semantics
- 04:44:42 [kaz]
- q?
- 04:44:46 [azaroth]
- ack bigbluehat
- 04:45:22 [yoshiaki_]
- yoshiaki_ has joined #wot
- 04:46:08 [azaroth]
- q-
- 04:46:08 [kaz]
- bigbluehat: you can still validate before processing context
- 04:46:09 [yoshiaki_]
- yoshiaki_ has joined #wot
- 04:46:23 [manu-wot]
- q+ for no jsonld processing
- 04:46:24 [kaz]
- sk: another question on JSON vs JSON-LD?
- 04:46:33 [kaz]
- mm: yes, that's our priority
- 04:47:02 [kaz]
- sk: shows issue 371
- 04:47:10 [kaz]
- ... TAG interoperability concerns
- 04:47:38 [kaz]
- ... do you have the same problem?
- 04:47:59 [kaz]
- bigbluehat: you can use any names for your local vocabulary
- 04:48:02 [kaz]
- q?
- 04:48:18 [kaz]
- mm: original point is JSON within JSON-LD
- 04:48:19 [kTakano]
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- 04:48:21 [azaroth]
- q+
- 04:48:32 [azaroth]
- ack McCool
- 04:48:40 [azaroth]
- ack manu-wot
- 04:48:40 [Zakim]
- manu-wot, you wanted to discuss no jsonld processing
- 04:48:40 [bigbluehat]
- q+
- 04:48:52 [azaroth]
- ack azaroth
- 04:49:12 [kaz]
- rob: wanted to say "don't do that"
- 04:49:26 [kaz]
- gk: core usage of JSON-LD is you take the data
- 04:49:31 [manu-wot]
- q+ to say CBOR-LD
- 04:49:55 [kaz]
- mm: the spec doesn't allow to rename things
- 04:50:04 [manu-wot]
- Q-
- 04:50:11 [azaroth]
- ack bigbluehat
- 04:50:31 [kaz]
- by: if there is another community working on different vocabulary
- 04:50:40 [azaroth]
- q+ to talk about gateways
- 04:50:52 [azaroth]
- ack azaroth
- 04:50:52 [Zakim]
- azaroth, you wanted to talk about gateways
- 04:50:53 [kaz]
- ... the question is when do you want to check it (before/after the conversion)
- 04:51:04 [kaz]
- gk: reframe the data
- 04:51:11 [kaz]
- rob: data passes transformations
- 04:51:21 [kaz]
- ... a very easy gateway
- 04:51:30 [manu-wot]
- q+ to note always support no jsonld processing.
- 04:51:33 [kaz]
- ... to convert input context to output context
- 04:51:56 [kaz]
- ... not interoperability concern but implementation concern
- 04:52:06 [dape]
- +q
- 04:52:21 [kaz]
- q+
- 04:53:47 [kaz]
- sk: we're responsible how it should be done
- 04:53:55 [azaroth]
- ack kaz
- 04:54:21 [dape]
- ack dape
- 04:54:26 [kaz]
- kaz: do we want to explain that to David?
- 04:54:34 [kaz]
- mm: make response on GH?
- 04:55:09 [kaz]
- ih: btw, 2 more weeks for CR :)
- 04:55:17 [kaz]
- s/CR/JSON-LD CR/
- 04:55:28 [kaz]
- gk: at least by the end of October
- 04:55:50 [mlagally]
- mlagally has joined #wot
- 04:55:53 [kaz]
- ms: the WG basically ended up that JSON-LD is the normative stuff
- 04:56:02 [kaz]
- ... that's the right answer
- 04:56:15 [kaz]
- .. we say in our spec you must add @context and everybody has to process it
- 04:56:26 [kaz]
- ... WoT context should be located at the top
- 04:56:38 [kaz]
- ... you can specify another file
- 04:56:59 [azaroth]
- Timeline for CR has the following switches: 2 weeks to process existing editorial issues (mostly typos) ; + 2 weeks if we need to deal with text direction ; + 2 weeks if we need to revise the version announcement
- 04:56:59 [kaz]
- ... overlay comes second
- 04:57:12 [kaz]
- sk: do you have an example?
- 04:58:03 [kaz]
- ms: Verifiable Credentials Data Model
- 04:58:12 [kaz]
- -> https://www.w3.org/TR/2019/PR-vc-data-model-20190905/ Verifiable Credentials Data Model
- 04:58:51 [kaz]
- ih: if people want to use the basic capability don't need to use JSON-LD
- 04:59:57 [dape]
- scribe: dape
- 05:00:15 [dape]
- TOPIC: Discovery
- 05:00:44 [dape]
- MMQ: Presentation is checked in already
- 05:01:00 [McCool]
- https://github.com/w3c/wot/blob/master/PRESENTATIONS/2019-09_WoT-Discovery.pdf
- 05:01:17 [kaz]
- i|Discovery|-> https://www.w3.org/TR/2017/REC-annotation-model-20170223/ Web Annotation Data Model as another example|
- 05:01:22 [kaz]
- rrsagent, draft minutes
- 05:01:22 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-wot-minutes.html kaz
- 05:01:25 [dape]
- s/MMQ/MCC
- 05:01:53 [ssstolk]
- ssstolk has left #wot
- 05:01:56 [dape]
- MCC: "Disovery" part of charter
- 05:02:09 [dape]
- ... Requirements
- 05:02:12 [dlehn]
- dlehn has left #wot
- 05:02:44 [dape]
- ... distribution mechanism of TDs
- 05:02:45 [Mizushima_]
- Mizushima_ has joined #wot
- 05:02:45 [Suguru_]
- Suguru_ has joined #wot
- 05:02:49 [mlagally]
- Good afternoon - can you hear our audio?
- 05:03:28 [mlagally]
- Yes, it works one way. Zoltan and I can also hear each other
- 05:03:37 [dape]
- ... Capabilities: local/global discovery, semantic queries, directories, peer-to-peer
- 05:05:07 [dape]
- ... Privacy-Preserve Architecture: Device & Information Lifecyle, authorized users
- 05:06:13 [mlagally]
- @kaz: seems not to work
- 05:07:06 [mlagally]
- now with echo
- 05:07:35 [mlagally]
- echo got crazy
- 05:07:45 [mlagally]
- n oaudio at all
- 05:07:51 [mlagally]
- no audio at all
- 05:09:02 [dape]
- ... Alignment with existing standards
- 05:09:32 [dape]
- ... get others on board, e.g., IETF core resource directories
- 05:09:45 [dape]
- ... core link format
- 05:10:04 [kaz]
- remote+ Elena, Lagally, Zoltan
- 05:10:54 [dape]
- ... Singapur meeting is a change to get in contact
- 05:11:28 [dape]
- ... Optional: support for scripting API
- 05:12:01 [dape]
- ... Proposal: Two Phase Discovery
- 05:12:16 [dape]
- ... find out adress to next step
- 05:12:31 [dape]
- ... adress has no information per se
- 05:12:43 [dape]
- s/adress/address
- 05:13:11 [dape]
- ... afterwards, I authenticate service
- 05:13:39 [dape]
- ... with authorization I can do queries et cetera
- 05:14:14 [dape]
- ... simple queries vs full semantic power
- 05:14:53 [dape]
- ... directory can run in cloud, gateway, ...
- 05:15:51 [dape]
- ... registration might need to be refrehsed
- 05:16:22 [dsr]
- q+
- 05:16:36 [kaz]
- q+
- 05:16:39 [kaz]
- ack manu
- 05:16:39 [Zakim]
- manu-wot, you wanted to note always support no jsonld processing.
- 05:16:40 [dape]
- ... well-known/td could be used as a "known" entry point
- 05:16:58 [zkis]
- q+
- 05:17:40 [mlagally]
- q+
- 05:17:43 [dape]
- DSR: how can I advertise a service that can be tight to a device?
- 05:18:36 [dape]
- MCC: discussion with Zoltan about management API
- 05:19:17 [dape]
- q?
- 05:20:10 [dape]
- DSR: we need to look at this broader aspect.. incubation is good with that regard
- 05:21:04 [NJ]
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- 05:21:39 [dape]
- MCC: I do think this is not prevented
- 05:21:50 [taki]
- +q
- 05:22:04 [dape]
- ack dape
- 05:22:08 [dape]
- ack dsr
- 05:22:10 [kaz]
- -> https://www.w3.org/TR/2012/NOTE-mmi-discovery-20120705/ MMI registration&discovery UCR Note
- 05:22:24 [dsr]
- There will be a market for applications for managing and exploiting devices, and the need for integrating this with the discovery model described bt McCool
- 05:22:37 [dsr]
- s/bt/by
- 05:22:39 [dape]
- Kaz: Agree, we should generate use-cases for discovery
- 05:22:47 [dape]
- q?
- 05:22:51 [kaz]
- ack kaz
- 05:23:13 [kaz]
- s/Kaz: Agree, we should generate use-cases for discovery//
- 05:23:14 [dape]
- ML: where are these requirements coming from?
- 05:23:25 [dape]
- MCC: first draft I came up with
- 05:23:44 [dape]
- ... need to work on strawpan ... till we have solid set
- 05:23:52 [kaz]
- i/There will be/kaz: Agree, we should generate use-cases/requirements document for discovery topic as well. an example document above./
- 05:23:53 [dape]
- q?
- 05:24:29 [dape]
- ZK: 2-phase discovery: same rules apply for any other service
- 05:24:53 [dape]
- MCC: useful to define TD for discovery/directory
- 05:25:10 [dsr]
- Devices could register with a directory in the cloud, enabling users to determine which applications are compatible with their devices. This can be done in ways that protect the user’s privacy
- 05:25:47 [dape]
- ZK: pressure on OCF to realize certain discovery service?
- 05:26:12 [kaz]
- q?
- 05:26:16 [kaz]
- ack zk
- 05:27:29 [dape]
- ZK: client API in scripting provides way to identify the type: local, directroy etc...
- 05:27:42 [dape]
- .... authentication part of wot runtime
- 05:28:12 [dape]
- MCC: It is ok to have diversity
- 05:28:31 [dape]
- ... directory should be strict about authentication
- 05:28:36 [zkis]
- q?
- 05:28:57 [dape]
- ... will write up requirements document to discuss
- 05:29:46 [dape]
- Takano: possible to hide id?
- 05:30:02 [kaz]
- s/Takano:/Matsuda:/
- 05:30:22 [kaz]
- q?
- 05:30:24 [kaz]
- q+
- 05:30:49 [dape]
- MCC: just an idea.... long discussion about alternatives
- 05:31:50 [dape]
- ML: Discovery is just one aspect
- 05:32:00 [yoshiaki_]
- yoshiaki_ has joined #wot
- 05:32:06 [dape]
- ... need to look into industrial use cases for example
- 05:32:35 [dape]
- ... there are more aspects of lifecycle
- 05:32:49 [dape]
- ... e.g., on boarding, off boarding
- 05:33:06 [dape]
- ... suggest to call the activity "lifecycle"
- 05:33:11 [horiuchi]
- horiuchi has joined #wot
- 05:33:26 [dape]
- MCC: different work item in charter
- 05:35:13 [dape]
- ... w.r.t. to discovery and industrial... there might be areas where needed but others where not needed
- 05:35:43 [dape]
- ... discovery is entry point for on-boarding
- 05:35:51 [dape]
- q?
- 05:35:57 [horiuchi_]
- horiuchi_ has joined #wot
- 05:36:44 [kaz]
- ack ml
- 05:36:44 [dape]
- ML: let's handle lifycyle in architecture
- 05:36:48 [kaz]
- ack taki
- 05:37:12 [dape]
- Taki: home use-case.... we gonna have profile
- 05:37:23 [dape]
- ... we have to think about discovery in smart home
- 05:37:58 [dape]
- MCC: profile should specify consumer setup
- 05:38:17 [zkis]
- q+
- 05:38:44 [dape]
- ML: guidelines for implementations
- 05:39:39 [zkis]
- ack zk
- 05:39:48 [dape]
- ZK: on-boarding depends on underlying protocol
- 05:40:09 [Mizushima]
- Mizushima has joined #wot
- 05:40:53 [yoshiaki]
- yoshiaki has joined #wot
- 05:40:57 [dape]
- MCC: specification for discovery is actually a TD describing the service
- 05:41:36 [dape]
- Kaz: discussion reminds me about discussion in DID
- 05:41:55 [dape]
- ... should keep up the discussion
- 05:41:55 [kaz]
- s/about/of/
- 05:41:59 [Kris]
- Kris has joined #wot
- 05:42:40 [kaz]
- q?
- 05:42:44 [kaz]
- ack kaz
- 05:42:55 [dape]
- MCC: Actions
- 05:43:22 [dape]
- ... create discovery repo (even though charter has not been approved yet)
- 05:43:55 [dape]
- ... start with use cases and requirements
- 05:44:36 [dape]
- ... like to see firm status for Singapur IETF
- 05:46:39 [dape]
- ... November 16-17
- 05:47:19 [zkis]
- q?
- 05:47:43 [horiuchi]
- horiuchi has joined #wot
- 05:47:44 [dape]
- SK: being open to multiple query languages besides SPARQL
- 05:48:54 [dape]
- ... or keyword searches
- 05:51:11 [kaz]
- [break till 3:05]
- 05:51:16 [kaz]
- rrsagent, draft minutes
- 05:51:16 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-wot-minutes.html kaz
- 05:53:42 [hendo__]
- hendo__ has joined #wot
- 05:53:58 [horiuchi_]
- horiuchi_ has joined #wot
- 05:54:50 [horiuchi]
- horiuchi has joined #wot
- 05:59:35 [yofukami]
- yofukami has joined #wot
- 06:00:09 [yoshiaki]
- yoshiaki has joined #wot
- 06:02:40 [dezell]
- dezell has joined #wot
- 06:07:18 [horiuchi]
- horiuchi has joined #wot
- 06:13:04 [kTakano]
- kTakano has joined #wot
- 06:15:45 [Suguru]
- Suguru has joined #wot
- 06:16:11 [ege]
- Topic: Architecture, Presenter: Michael Lagally
- 06:17:30 [kaz]
- scribenick: ege
- 06:17:42 [ege]
- mm: work items ?
- 06:18:02 [Kris]
- Kris has joined #wot
- 06:18:38 [kaz]
- present+ Kris_McGlinn
- 06:18:48 [ege]
- ml: introduction to the architecture document for the observers
- 06:19:50 [ege]
- ... (showing the issues page)
- 06:19:54 [shouqun]
- shouqun has joined #wot
- 06:19:57 [ege]
- ... no new issues since the last call of last week
- 06:20:41 [ege]
- ... anybody thinking of an issue?
- 06:21:02 [kaz]
- -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-architecture/issues WoT Architecture issues
- 06:21:09 [ege]
- mm: we are talking about the PR release candidate
- 06:21:25 [kaz]
- -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-architecture/pulls Pullrequests
- 06:21:34 [kaz]
- s/PR/Proposed Recommendation/
- 06:21:37 [ege]
- ... looking at a PR request, number #385
- 06:21:59 [kaz]
- -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-architecture/pull/385 PR 385
- 06:22:42 [ege]
- mm: does security and privacy have any figures
- 06:24:02 [kaz]
- -> w3c.github.io/wot-architecture/#toc WoT Architecture Editor's Draft
- 06:25:04 [ege]
- mm: we have an issue about security metadata being ambiguous
- 06:25:44 [inamori_]
- inamori_ has joined #wot
- 06:26:25 [ege]
- ... so the difference between the description/metadata so the securityDefinitions in the TD and the security data such as the keys/tokens
- 06:26:26 [kaz]
- -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-architecture/pull/385/files Changes
- 06:26:39 [kaz]
- -> https://pr-preview.s3.amazonaws.com/w3c/wot-architecture/pull/385.html Preview
- 06:26:58 [ege]
- ... figure 25 was also not consistent with the text
- 06:27:29 [ege]
- ml: we can fix this quickly
- 06:27:50 [ege]
- ... (creates an issue about this)
- 06:27:53 [ege]
- mm: I can work on thi
- 06:28:00 [horiuchi_]
- horiuchi_ has joined #wot
- 06:28:13 [ege]
- s/ thi/this
- 06:28:18 [kaz]
- -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-architecture/issues/386 Issue 386
- 06:28:52 [Shinya]
- Shinya has joined #wot
- 06:30:43 [ege]
- ml: shall I merge this PR?
- 06:31:30 [dezell]
- dezell has joined #wot
- 06:31:32 [minami]
- minami has joined #wot
- 06:32:32 [horiuchi_]
- horiuchi_ has joined #wot
- 06:33:40 [mlagally]
- https://github.com/w3c/wot-architecture/issues/380
- 06:33:52 [ege]
- mm: we have a meeting with privacy group tomorrow
- 06:34:24 [ege]
- ... tomorrow 11am
- 06:35:07 [kaz]
- s/11am/1pm/
- 06:35:09 [ege]
- ml: if there are any outcomes from the discussion, please put into the issue
- 06:35:15 [kaz]
- -> https://www.w3.org/WoT/IG/wiki/F2F_meeting,_16-20_September_2019,_Fukuoka,_Japan#13:00-18:00_Group_Meetings agenda for PING joint session
- 06:35:57 [kaz]
- [Kaz notes that the meeting room for PING joint discussion will be this room, Koh on 3F.]
- 06:37:23 [ege]
- mm: consider that there are not blocking issues for the PR transition
- 06:38:27 [mlagally]
- resolution: The WoT WG does not have any blocking issues for PR transition of the architecture document
- 06:39:23 [kaz]
- action: McCool to update the figure 25, 27-29 tonight
- 06:39:23 [trackbot]
- Created ACTION-181 - Update the figure 25, 27-29 tonight [on Michael McCool - due 2019-09-26].
- 06:39:35 [ege]
- now is the last day to decide to make change proposals for the specs before going to PR
- 06:40:16 [ege]
- ml: recapping from the last session to build the use cases
- 06:42:25 [ege]
- ... (looking at the PRs of the w3c/wot repo)
- 06:42:52 [kaz]
- -> https://github.com/w3c/wot/pull/862 PR 862
- 06:43:00 [simonstey]
- simonstey has left #wot
- 06:43:09 [kaz]
- -> https://cdn.statically.io/gh/mmccool/wot/wg-charter-draft/charters/wot-wg-charter-draft-2019.html?env=dev Rendered version
- 06:43:29 [ege]
- ... (looking at the work charter draft to fill the architecture use cases)
- 06:43:45 [zkis_]
- zkis_ has joined #wot
- 06:45:22 [ege]
- ml: we should be cautious to not prescribe too many things
- 06:46:39 [Mizushima]
- Mizushima has joined #wot
- 06:47:39 [ege]
- ... any additional work items proposed by anyone?
- 06:47:42 [ege]
- q?
- 06:48:30 [ktoumura]
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- 06:48:40 [ryuichi]
- ryuichi has joined #wot
- 06:51:04 [ege]
- mm: we need user categories, such as developer, device owner etc.
- 06:51:40 [ege]
- ... we want to remove and revise some use cases
- 06:52:03 [inamori_]
- inamori_ has joined #wot
- 06:52:07 [kaz]
- q+
- 06:53:18 [kaz]
- ack kaz
- 06:53:18 [ege]
- mm: once we fix the template I have mentioned in the previous talk, we can start using it to structure the use cases, user categories etc.
- 06:53:35 [ege]
- kaz: we should consider using workshop results
- 06:53:53 [kaz]
- s/results/results and also maybe Shimmachi-san's input/
- 06:57:11 [ege]
- mm: we need to be clear where we are prescriptive and where descriptive
- 06:58:25 [ege]
- kaz: don't forget the ideathon results
- 06:58:56 [ege]
- mm: I would have like to be invited, actually we should do it another time where some members of the working group join and explain some things we need
- 07:00:16 [ege]
- ... using other STO for the terminology when possible
- 07:02:00 [ege]
- ml: (looking at issue 208 of architecture)
- 07:03:50 [ege]
- ... (now issue 25, WoT in a browser)
- 07:04:26 [kaz]
- i|now|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-architecture/issues/208 Issue 208|
- 07:04:55 [ege]
- mm: we need one browser vendor on board to do demo
- 07:05:07 [kaz]
- i|we need|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-architecture/issues/25 Issue 25|
- 07:05:24 [kaz]
- q+
- 07:05:28 [tksuzuki]
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- 07:08:15 [hendo]
- hendo has joined #wot
- 07:09:29 [kaz]
- ack k
- 07:09:50 [kaz]
- -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-architecture/issues/8 Issue 8
- 07:10:02 [kaz]
- q+
- 07:11:28 [ege]
- kaz: invite more people from nyig (?), like X from BBC
- 07:11:40 [kaz]
- s/nyig (?)/MEIG/
- 07:11:46 [kaz]
- s/X from/Chris Needham/
- 07:12:00 [kaz]
- s/invite/would suggest we invite/
- 07:12:13 [ege]
- mm: capturing RTSP cameras as Things
- 07:13:27 [kaz]
- s/would suggest/on Monday, there was a meeting of MEIG, and NHK made a presentation (and they're participating in WoT PlugFest too :), so I'd suggest/
- 07:14:18 [ege]
- ml: there are already some specs out there who are about streaming
- 07:15:06 [ege]
- mm: making it sure to say that we are not defining our own media streaming protocol
- 07:15:29 [NJ]
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