IRC log of webtransport on 2019-09-18

Timestamps are in UTC.

05:43:00 [RRSAgent]
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logging to https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-webtransport-irc
05:43:39 [JRR_Tolkien]
Youenn: how would 'dropping' data happen?
05:44:15 [JRR_Tolkien]
Victor_??_Google: currently no way to ignore, UDP sockets allow ignoring by not reading from buffer (overflow)
05:44:44 [nicktr]
rrsagent, set logs public
05:45:12 [jianjunz]
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05:45:27 [JRR_Tolkien]
Peter_Thatcher_Google: one of the goals is to apply back-pressure
05:46:02 [JRR_Tolkien]
Youenn: want to send datagram above max size, what would happen?
05:46:32 [JRR_Tolkien]
Victor: exception. API call will give you max size.
05:46:51 [minami]
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05:47:44 [JRR_Tolkien]
Victor: closing stream semantics can help. there are a lot of higher level apis you can provide to deal with larger messages.
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05:49:08 [JRR_Tolkien]
Peter: example in explainer shows message of arbitrary size
05:49:28 [JRR_Tolkien]
???: is protocol name set in constructor?
05:50:06 [JRR_Tolkien]
Victor: it's done using interface mixin. constructors may vary, but object must support WebTransport interface
05:50:45 [JRR_Tolkien]
Alex_Apple: WebSocket has handshake to prevent misuse. does this have a similar mechanism
05:51:48 [JRR_Tolkien]
Victor: Quic transport uses ALPN to match a specific value, without a valid value it won't work and fail the connection. Browser verifies list of domains can talk to before sending data
05:52:22 [JRR_Tolkien]
Jan-Ivar Mozilla: does getWriter get a different writer every time?
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05:53:07 [JRR_Tolkien]
??: once stream is closed it will never be used again.
05:53:20 [ricea]
That was me
05:53:36 [JRR_Tolkien]
full name would help :)
05:53:39 [ricea]
Adam Rice
05:53:40 [nicktr]
s/??/ricea/
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05:54:37 [JRR_Tolkien]
Jan Ivar: calling send datagram twice gets two streams, how do they interact (multiplex, etc.)
05:54:55 [JRR_Tolkien]
Victor: should only be one stream in datagrams. they should be either sent or not sent (UDP semantics)
05:55:15 [JRR_Tolkien]
Victor: Goal is to use UDP semantics with flow/congestion control
05:55:41 [JRR_Tolkien]
????: timing data was missed with WebSockets. can metrics/stats be added to API?
05:56:16 [JRR_Tolkien]
Victor: some stats are there, need users to provide feedback on which stats are interesting/needed.
05:56:44 [JRR_Tolkien]
?????: ...fallback when you don't have UDP?
05:57:04 [JRR_Tolkien]
Emad_Omara_Google: will it support 0-RTT?
05:57:24 [JRR_Tolkien]
Victor: no support for 0-RTT. API design is hard, more complex state machine, etc.
05:57:38 [JRR_Tolkien]
Youenn: will WebRTC stats be reused (applicable ones)?
05:58:13 [JRR_Tolkien]
Victor: added the ones that we know are already useful
05:59:12 [JRR_Tolkien]
Steve_Anton_Google: WebRTC has a lot of stats because you are not on the data layer, this should be different because you are using the networking layer
06:03:38 [JRR_Tolkien]
??: how will debugging work? what about dev tools?
06:03:57 [JRR_Tolkien]
Victor: dev tools is planned to be supported.
06:05:12 [JRR_Tolkien]
Amit_Hilbuch_Google: how will this interact with p2p scenario
06:05:23 [JRR_Tolkien]
Peter: currently focused on Server-Client but planned
06:05:35 [JRR_Tolkien]
Jan Ivar: is congestion control required?
06:05:57 [JRR_Tolkien]
Victor: yes all streams are required to use congestion control.
06:06:54 [JRR_Tolkien]
??: Implemented in quic using datagram frame, data will be blocked if window is full (adding more data will cause it to be dropped)
06:07:35 [JRR_Tolkien]
???: will Keep-Alive behavior be part of the transport?
06:08:26 [JRR_Tolkien]
Victor: connection will be kept open as long as it isn't explicitly closed (or garbage collected)
06:08:58 [JRR_Tolkien]
David_Google: Quic has a keep-alive mechanism.
06:09:16 [JRR_Tolkien]
s/???/Mark Foltz_Google
06:09:27 [JRR_Tolkien]
06:10:42 [JRR_Tolkien]
Victor: ... multiplexing mechanism is not yet clear. this is a learning from WebSockets on url leading to http assumption.
06:11:06 [JRR_Tolkien]
????: it should be easy for Http3
06:11:20 [JRR_Tolkien]
Victor: for http it is easy, but for quic transport it's not as clear
06:11:56 [nakakura]
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06:12:24 [nicktr]
s/????/AdrianHB/
06:12:57 [JRR_Tolkien]
David: next steps for this work - do people have opinions on the best plan forward?
06:13:06 [JRR_Tolkien]
Jan Ivar: considered forming a WG?
06:13:27 [JRR_Tolkien]
Victor: eventually it will hit a WG, but it's not ready for that state yet (no real dev feedback yet)
06:14:08 [JRR_Tolkien]
Jan-Ivar: mozilla would support a working group
06:14:36 [JRR_Tolkien]
Youenn: would node js or similar frameworks use the same pattern?
06:14:49 [JRR_Tolkien]
Victor: have not reached out about that yet
06:15:19 [JRR_Tolkien]
Youenn: node js can be used for both client and server
06:17:32 [JRR_Tolkien]
Peter: any feedback for technical discussions? CC or BWE?
06:17:45 [JRR_Tolkien]
??: what happens during connection?
06:18:01 [JRR_Tolkien]
Victor: we need to define how it interacts with extensions
06:18:44 [JRR_Tolkien]
??: is the expectation that the connection initiation will carry cookies?
06:19:20 [JRR_Tolkien]
Victor: explicitly no, considered exposing channel bindings
06:19:42 [JRR_Tolkien]
??: is there expectation that a user gesture is required to initiate a connection?
06:20:04 [JRR_Tolkien]
Victor: currently not.
06:20:21 [JRR_Tolkien]
Jan Ivar: thoughts on putting this in service worker?
06:20:36 [JRR_Tolkien]
Victor: should be supported in service workers.
06:21:21 [JRR_Tolkien]
?????: is this meant to be protocol-agnostic?
06:21:48 [JRR_Tolkien]
Victor: there is a websocket based fallback
06:22:01 [JRR_Tolkien]
?: how does this interact with prioritization (multiplexing scenario)
06:22:52 [JRR_Tolkien]
Victor: prioritization is a hard topic in http. with http3 it behaves similar to regular http streams (scheduler provides fairness). dos + fairness are concerns
06:24:16 [nicktr]
rrsagent, draft minutes
06:24:16 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-webtransport-minutes.html nicktr
07:57:21 [Zakim]
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08:02:36 [wseltzer]
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08:02:42 [wseltzer]
rrsagent, pointer?
08:02:42 [RRSAgent]
See https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-webtransport-irc#T08-02-42
09:20:57 [hyojin]
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