IRC log of w3process on 2019-09-18
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 06:24:50 [RRSAgent]
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- logging to https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-w3process-irc
- 06:24:53 [tantek]
- RRSAgent, make logs public
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- present+
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- 07:35:24 [dsinger]
- present+ dsinger
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- present+
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- 07:35:35 [nigel]
- present+ NIgel_Megitt
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- present+
- 07:35:42 [plh]
- present+
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- 07:35:47 [cwilso]
- Present+
- 07:35:48 [plh]
- scribeNick: plh
- 07:35:50 [florian]
- present+
- 07:35:51 [Lauriat]
- Present+
- 07:35:53 [cb]
- present+
- 07:36:02 [tantek]
- present+
- 07:36:04 [nigel]
- s/NIgel/Nigel
- 07:36:08 [Bert]
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- 07:36:11 [tantek]
- RRSAgent, make minutes public
- 07:36:11 [RRSAgent]
- I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes public', tantek. Try /msg RRSAgent help
- 07:36:19 [jdai]
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- RRSAgent, make logs public
- 07:36:32 [plh]
- Florian: plh and fantasai gave a presentation on continuous development
- 07:36:34 [pal_]
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- 07:36:54 [plh]
- Florian: (presenting the github repo)
- 07:37:00 [fantasai]
- https://github.com/w3c/w3process
- 07:37:09 [JoeAndrieu]
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- 07:37:39 [plh]
- ... everblue/evergreen
- 07:37:54 [plh]
- David: director-free isn't a Process 2020 but is a longer term project
- 07:38:10 [plh]
- Fantasai: improving the REC-track
- 07:38:19 [dsinger]
- Note that Director-free is a longer term exploration of what the Process might look like in the absence of a Director
- 07:38:22 [plh]
- ... nice to have patent licensing apply earlier
- 07:38:25 [plh]
- ... CR or like
- 07:38:31 [plh]
- ... number of use cases to improve the process
- 07:38:36 [plh]
- ... foals
- 07:38:43 [plh]
- ... simplify maintenance
- 07:38:43 [jdai]
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- 07:38:45 [tantek]
- s/foals/goals
- 07:39:00 [plh]
- ... [Fantasai keeps going through the slides]
- 07:39:40 [jeff]
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- 07:39:46 [plh]
- ... proposal: update the patent policy, streamlining CR updates, and REC updates
- 07:39:55 [plh]
- ... and add a dedicated registry process
- 07:40:04 [NJ_]
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- 07:40:44 [plh]
- ... slides are at https://www.w3.org/2019/Talks/TPAC/continuous-standards/
- 07:41:07 [pal_]
- q+
- 07:41:27 [plh]
- ack pal
- 07:42:09 [plh]
- Pierre: if the contribution doesn't make it in the full spec, there is no commitment, right?
- 07:42:40 [plh]
- David: the commitment would be indeed if it becomes part of the spec
- 07:42:43 [cwilso]
- Q-
- 07:42:51 [cwilso]
- Q+
- 07:43:14 [plh]
- ... if the contribution doesn't make into the final spec, you only get the commitment to an early version
- 07:43:46 [plh]
- Florian: the patent policy of whatwg was derived from the CGs, and we're deriving it from it
- 07:43:58 [plh]
- Pierre: not everybody will be happy with it
- 07:44:39 [plh]
- Florian: when you retire a spec, it's the same.
- 07:45:03 [plh]
- David: as long as you can point that you implemented that version, you'll be fine.
- 07:45:18 [plh]
- ... chances that people will sue for implemting CR versions wil be low.
- 07:45:22 [fantasai]
- s/retire/rescind/
- 07:45:31 [plh]
- Pierre: here it says on each contribution
- 07:45:46 [plh]
- ... is a pull request a document?
- 07:46:04 [plh]
- Fantasai: it would have to be published on /TR, not just a nightly draft
- 07:46:10 [plh]
- ... details are still being worked out
- 07:46:14 [dsinger]
- I’m assuming that the commitment to contributions would be similar to the one we ask of non-WG members; that you get a license to the contributor’s IPR if you implement the draft that integrated it.
- 07:46:23 [plh]
- ... join PSIG to make your opinion
- 07:46:49 [plh]
- Florian: given that this is in the WHATWG policy, it seems a signal that it is acceptable
- 07:46:50 [dsinger]
- Indeed, if the feature doesn’t survive into Rec. you will not get full-spec. coverage that includes that feature.
- 07:47:08 [florian]
- q?
- 07:47:15 [plh]
- Pierre: this is not a proper assumption imho
- 07:47:21 [dsinger]
- q?
- 07:47:26 [dsinger]
- ack cwil
- 07:48:06 [plh]
- Chris: I would not compare this to the whatwg policy, because the workstreams are setup differently. a PR doesn't get merge until it stays in the spec
- 07:48:42 [plh]
- ... but I would say that the goal is to not let you iterate without assurances on commitments
- 07:48:49 [plh]
- ... the time period can be a decade
- 07:49:07 [plh]
- Pierre: in the case of whatwg, there is a very defined process....
- 07:49:14 [dsinger]
- q?
- 07:49:38 [plh]
- chris: they managed their workstreams differently. it would be an improvement for w3c to update its patent policy nevertheless
- 07:49:43 [vivien]
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- 07:50:00 [plh]
- Fantasai: the point is getting commitments earlier in the process
- 07:50:26 [plh]
- .... [streamlining routine CR update approvals]
- 07:50:58 [tantek]
- This is a really good set of improvements (streamlining routine CR update approvals)
- 07:51:13 [dsinger]
- q+ to ask what this “routine” is? and how does someone decide what constitutes “routine”?
- 07:52:00 [plh]
- Travis: so, we have currently to do horizontal reviews, etc. the proposal is that ...
- 07:52:18 [plh]
- Florian: having done it once, you document this and you can publish
- 07:52:34 [plh]
- Travis: oh, so you're not locking again on a second review?
- 07:52:37 [plh]
- Florian: correct
- 07:52:59 [plh]
- Fantasai: as long as you didn't make change that would require updating the review
- 07:53:06 [plh]
- David: but who decide that?
- 07:53:24 [plh]
- Fantasai: details will be decided by the implementation
- 07:54:01 [jorydotcom]
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- 07:54:05 [tantek]
- q?
- 07:54:11 [tantek]
- ack dsinger
- 07:54:11 [Zakim]
- dsinger, you wanted to ask what this “routine” is? and how does someone decide what constitutes “routine”?
- 07:54:14 [jorydotcom]
- present+
- 07:54:18 [plh]
- Florian: two parts of routine: we're not going to define how to make HR happy, you just don't have to spend continuously call for reviews. you just have to demonstrate that it happened
- 07:54:24 [plh]
- q+
- 07:54:54 [nigel]
- plh: From the point of view of the Horizontal Groups, there's a wish to move away from the quality control aspects to one
- 07:55:07 [nigel]
- .. where you come as early as possible.
- 07:55:21 [nigel]
- .. The role is to allow WGs to go to HR groups as early as possible.
- 07:55:35 [nigel]
- .. So that it's easy to check the box on applying for transition
- 07:55:45 [nigel]
- i/plh/scribe: nigel
- 07:55:47 [nigel]
- scribe: plh
- 07:55:55 [plh]
- David: who gets to police if the Group did things right?
- 07:56:11 [plh]
- Fantasai: the Group needs to document and if they get caught, the publication can be revoked
- 07:56:19 [dsinger]
- ack ds
- 07:56:58 [dsinger]
- ack plh
- 07:57:00 [tantek]
- q?
- 07:57:09 [plh]
- Floran: WGs are supposed to be in consensus and the Team Contact should be paying attention
- 07:57:18 [tantek]
- q?
- 07:57:27 [nigel]
- q+
- 07:57:39 [tantek]
- q+ to ask if this CR streamlining has proposed Process text yet
- 07:57:42 [plh]
- Fantasai: different process fixes can be taken up by the Process at different times
- 07:57:45 [plh]
- ack nigel
- 07:59:00 [fantasai]
- fantasai: although I recommend we adopt these all together to have a good Process
- 07:59:13 [fantasai]
- nigel: says if there's dissent from commenter, then blocked from CR?
- 07:59:18 [JoeAndrieu]
- q?
- 07:59:26 [fantasai]
- fantasai: Not blocked, just can't use fast track -- have to get human approval
- 07:59:56 [fantasai]
- scribenick: fantasai
- 07:59:59 [pal]
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- 08:00:04 [fantasai]
- tantek: is there Process draft ext on this?
- 08:00:06 [jeff_]
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- 08:00:07 [nigel_]
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- 08:00:13 [fantasai]
- https://w3c.github.io/w3process/everblue/
- 08:00:17 [fantasai]
- https://services.w3.org/htmldiff?doc1=https%3A%2F%2Fw3c.github.io%2Fw3process%2F&doc2=https%3A%2F%2Fw3c.github.io%2Fw3process%2Feverblue
- 08:00:23 [jorydotc_]
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- 08:00:26 [fantasai]
- florian: yes, draft text for most parts
- 08:00:30 [fantasai]
- florian: exception is patent policy
- 08:00:40 [fantasai]
- florian:and the decoupling on next slide, not drafted yet
- 08:00:44 [plh]
- scribe: plh
- 08:00:48 [tantek]
- Thank you!
- 08:00:50 [plh]
- scribeNick: plh
- 08:01:10 [plh]
- Fantasai: [Decoupling CR updates from CR review drafts]
- 08:01:16 [mnot]
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- 08:01:32 [Bert]
- s/Floran:/Florian:/
- 08:01:34 [plh]
- ... currently every CR updates trigger patent exclusions when you have to go through approvals, etc.
- 08:01:47 [plh]
- ... lawyers don't like this to happen often
- 08:01:56 [nigel_]
- q?
- 08:02:06 [plh]
- https://www.w3.org/2019/Talks/TPAC/continuous-standards/
- 08:02:14 [tantek]
- q-
- 08:02:43 [nigel_]
- q+ to ask if the CR Updates are always "routine"?
- 08:02:45 [plh]
- Fantasai: folks are looking at unofficial/editor draft instead of looking at the official spec
- 08:03:01 [nigel_]
- rrsagent, pointer?
- 08:03:01 [RRSAgent]
- See https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-w3process-irc#T08-03-01
- 08:03:12 [plh]
- ... proposal is to have two types of CR publications: review drafts and updates
- 08:03:25 [plh]
- ... updates wouldn't trigger patent exclusions/approvals
- 08:03:42 [plh]
- ... and would publish a review draft on a regular basis for exclusions and approvals
- 08:03:58 [tpk]
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- 08:04:11 [plh]
- ... you can update as much as you want until you feel you need a review draft
- 08:04:17 [pal]
- q+
- 08:04:30 [plh]
- NIgel: are the CR updates considered routine ones?
- 08:04:54 [plh]
- Fantasai: no, but you won't need the same level of approvals
- 08:05:31 [plh]
- Florian: for the updates, you won't have to prove everything, but you may get blocked for a review draft
- 08:05:46 [plh]
- ... no checks, fast track or not happen on an update
- 08:06:18 [plh]
- David: if you publish 2 review drafts 2 months apart, they both trigger a call for exclusion?
- 08:06:27 [nigel_]
- s/NIgel/Nigel
- 08:06:45 [plh]
- plh: you need a minimum duration between 2 review drafts
- 08:06:47 [jorydotc_]
- q?
- 08:06:52 [nigel_]
- ack
- 08:06:54 [nigel_]
- ack n
- 08:06:54 [Zakim]
- nigel_, you wanted to ask if the CR Updates are always "routine"?
- 08:07:09 [plh]
- Pierre: so, you'll have a CR updates, and CR review drafts?
- 08:07:23 [plh]
- Fantasai: yes, changing state would be misleading
- 08:07:43 [plh]
- Florian: going back would signal a lower quality, so wrong signal
- 08:07:45 [dsinger]
- ack pal
- 08:08:10 [plh]
- David: why is this not like WHATWG with doing a review draft every 6 months?
- 08:08:26 [plh]
- Fantasai: because it's not automatic. you still need Director's approval
- 08:09:22 [plh]
- Pierre: today, you could do WD, WD, CR, then realize you forgot a feature, go back to WD, ...
- 08:09:36 [plh]
- David: why not doing a call for exclusion everything 6 months?
- 08:10:06 [plh]
- Florian: there is no point in the whatwg when someone checks the work done properly
- 08:10:36 [fantasai]
- plh: previous slide was about reducing overhread of asking Director's permission when everything is fine
- 08:10:59 [fantasai]
- plh: this is about facilitating publication of ED on /TR page
- 08:11:08 [fantasai]
- plh: so that people can show their latest work on the ?TR page
- 08:11:19 [fantasai]
- plh: without requiring Director approval every time they want to update the draft
- 08:11:36 [fantasai]
- plh: if you want a call for exclusion, you have to do what we do today which is to get a transtition approval from the Director
- 08:11:46 [fantasai]
- plh: we're not going to force WG to do that every time they want to update CR
- 08:13:13 [dsinger]
- q?
- 08:13:16 [fantasai]
- dsinger: then you could just publish forever, never get a patent review draft
- 08:13:26 [fantasai]
- plh: max 24 months you can do that, you need to get patent review
- 08:13:30 [astearns]
- May be better to say these things are seperable
- 08:14:02 [fantasai]
- pal: CR means two things to an external organizatioN: quality, and patent exlcusion
- 08:14:06 [dsinger]
- q?
- 08:14:12 [fantasai]
- pal: CR Update means WD with quality level of CR
- 08:15:02 [fantasai]
- nigel: There's later on an inline errata system for REC, why not do that instead of just make change?
- 08:15:23 [tantek]
- "Edited CR" - parallel to "Edited Recommendation"
- 08:15:29 [plh]
- Nigel: why not doing the udpates as annotations?
- 08:15:47 [tantek]
- s/udpates/updates
- 08:15:56 [tpk]
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- 08:16:32 [plh]
- Fantasai: when doing a lot of linked small changes, annotations would be confusing. it's easier to do that in Recommendations. For CR, it's hard, based on my experience as CSS editor.
- 08:16:53 [plh]
- ... having annotations would make it impossible to read
- 08:17:34 [plh]
- ... there is an encouragement to document your changes from review draft to review draft
- 08:18:23 [plh]
- Fantasai: [modifying a Recommendation]
- 08:19:43 [tantek]
- This looks good, except keep the existing "Edited Recommendation" phrase in the process
- 08:20:19 [dsinger]
- The documents that result from CR updates *are* of different status from CRs; they have had horizontal review waivers, no director review, and no exclusion opportunity.
- 08:20:48 [plh]
- Florian: because we're calling reviews on a subset of the changes, other could be kept as annotations
- 08:21:08 [plh]
- Fantasai: [allowing adding features to an extensible REC]
- 08:21:42 [nigel]
- q+ to ask why a charter-level pre-agreement is needed to be extensible
- 08:22:05 [plh]
- ack nigel
- 08:22:05 [Zakim]
- nigel, you wanted to ask why a charter-level pre-agreement is needed to be extensible
- 08:22:19 [plh]
- Nigel: can we simply let the wg decide?
- 08:22:26 [vivien]
- I was wondering if this update of REC proposed fix is going to replace Edited Recommendation and Amended Recommendation https://www.w3.org/2019/Process-20190301/#maturity-levels
- 08:22:30 [plh]
- Fantasai: we want to get AC review
- 08:22:34 [plh]
- Nigel: why?
- 08:23:05 [plh]
- Fantasai: because it depends on the community.
- 08:23:20 [plh]
- Nigel: how can the AC know the community better than the WG?
- 08:23:31 [plh]
- Fantasai: because it's a broader set of people
- 08:24:18 [plh]
- Travis: the distinction between REC and extensible REC, you'd do a new revision but it takes time
- 08:24:38 [nigel]
- I think we should check that out a bit more, who is best to decide if a REC should accept extensions
- 08:24:54 [tantek]
- q?
- 08:25:00 [tantek]
- Zakim, close the queue
- 08:25:00 [Zakim]
- ok, tantek, the speaker queue is closed
- 08:25:18 [fantasai]
- Travis: From working on HTML, we just revved version number when adding new features
- 08:25:37 [fantasai]
- Travis: Main problem was it took so long to get REC, maybe just shortcut process for getting to new REC from old REC
- 08:26:16 [plh]
- rrsagent, generate minutes
- 08:26:16 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-w3process-minutes.html plh
- 08:26:19 [plh]
- rrsagent, make logs public-visible
- 08:26:26 [fantasai]
- Travis: instead of changing meaning of REC
- 08:26:31 [fantasai]
- fantasai: I like that proposal
- 08:26:35 [fantasai]
- AC poll - https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/33280/improved-pp-2019/
- 08:26:39 [plh]
- rrsagent, generate minutes
- 08:26:39 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-w3process-minutes.html plh
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