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07:30:32 <CharlesHall> present+
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07:35:24 <dsinger> present+ dsinger
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07:35:35 <nigel> present+ NIgel_Megitt
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07:35:47 <cwilso> Present+
07:35:48 <plh> scribeNick: plh
07:35:50 <florian> present+
07:35:51 <Lauriat> Present+
07:35:53 <cb> present+
07:36:02 <tantek> present+
07:36:04 <nigel> s/NIgel/Nigel
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07:36:11 <tantek> RRSAgent, make minutes public
07:36:11 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes public', tantek.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
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07:36:32 <plh> Florian: plh and fantasai gave a presentation on continuous development
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07:36:54 <plh> Florian: (presenting the github repo)
07:37:00 <fantasai> https://github.com/w3c/w3process
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07:37:39 <plh> ... everblue/evergreen
07:37:54 <plh> David: director-free isn't a Process 2020 but is a longer term project
07:38:10 <plh> Fantasai: improving the REC-track
07:38:19 <dsinger> Note that Director-free is a longer term exploration of what the Process might look like in the absence of a Director
07:38:22 <plh> ... nice to have patent licensing apply earlier
07:38:25 <plh> ... CR or like
07:38:31 <plh> ... number of use cases to improve the process
07:38:36 <plh> ... foals
07:38:43 <plh> ... simplify maintenance
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07:38:45 <tantek> s/foals/goals
07:39:00 <plh> ... [Fantasai keeps going through the slides]
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07:39:46 <plh> ... proposal: update the patent policy, streamlining CR updates, and REC updates
07:39:55 <plh> ... and add a dedicated registry process
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07:40:44 <plh> ... slides are at https://www.w3.org/2019/Talks/TPAC/continuous-standards/
07:41:07 <pal_> q+
07:41:27 <plh> ack pal
07:42:09 <plh> Pierre: if the contribution doesn't make it in the full spec, there is no commitment, right?
07:42:40 <plh> David: the commitment would be indeed if it becomes part of the spec
07:42:43 <cwilso> Q-
07:42:51 <cwilso> Q+
07:43:14 <plh> ... if the contribution doesn't make into the final spec, you only get the commitment to an early version
07:43:46 <plh> Florian: the patent policy of whatwg was derived from the CGs, and we're deriving it from it
07:43:58 <plh> Pierre: not everybody will be happy with it
07:44:39 <plh> Florian: when you retire a spec, it's the same.
07:45:03 <plh> David: as long as you can point that you implemented that version, you'll be fine.
07:45:18 <plh> ... chances that people will sue for implemting CR versions wil be low.
07:45:22 <fantasai> s/retire/rescind/
07:45:31 <plh> Pierre: here it says on each contribution
07:45:46 <plh> ... is a pull request a document?
07:46:04 <plh> Fantasai: it would have to be published on /TR, not just a nightly draft
07:46:10 <plh> ... details are still being worked out
07:46:14 <dsinger> I’m assuming that the commitment to contributions would be similar to the one we ask of non-WG members; that you get a license to the contributor’s IPR if you implement the draft that integrated it.
07:46:23 <plh> ... join PSIG to make your opinion
07:46:49 <plh> Florian: given that this is in the WHATWG policy, it seems a signal that it is acceptable
07:46:50 <dsinger> Indeed, if the feature doesn’t survive into Rec. you will not get full-spec. coverage that includes that feature.
07:47:08 <florian> q?
07:47:15 <plh> Pierre: this is not a proper assumption imho
07:47:21 <dsinger> q?
07:47:26 <dsinger> ack cwil
07:48:06 <plh> Chris: I would not compare this to the whatwg policy, because the workstreams are setup differently. a PR doesn't get merge until it stays in the spec
07:48:42 <plh> ... but I would say that the goal is to not let you iterate without assurances on commitments
07:48:49 <plh> ... the time period can be a decade
07:49:07 <plh> Pierre: in the case of whatwg, there is a very defined process....
07:49:14 <dsinger> q?
07:49:38 <plh> chris: they managed their workstreams differently. it would be an improvement for w3c to update its patent policy nevertheless
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07:50:00 <plh> Fantasai: the point is getting commitments earlier in the process
07:50:26 <plh> .... [streamlining routine CR update approvals]
07:50:58 <tantek> This is a really good set of improvements (streamlining routine CR update approvals)
07:51:13 <dsinger> q+ to ask what this “routine” is? and how does someone decide what constitutes “routine”?
07:52:00 <plh> Travis: so, we have currently to do horizontal reviews, etc. the proposal is that ...
07:52:18 <plh> Florian: having done it once, you document this and you can publish
07:52:34 <plh> Travis: oh, so you're not locking again on a second review?
07:52:37 <plh> Florian: correct
07:52:59 <plh> Fantasai: as long as you didn't make change that would require updating the review
07:53:06 <plh> David: but who decide that?
07:53:24 <plh> Fantasai: details will be decided by the implementation
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07:54:05 <tantek> q?
07:54:11 <tantek> ack dsinger
07:54:11 <Zakim> dsinger, you wanted to ask what this “routine” is? and how does someone decide what constitutes “routine”?
07:54:14 <jorydotcom> present+
07:54:18 <plh> Florian: two parts of routine: we're not going to define how to make HR happy, you just don't have to spend continuously call for reviews. you just have to demonstrate that it happened
07:54:24 <plh> q+
07:54:54 <nigel> plh: From the point of view of the Horizontal Groups, there's a wish to move away from the quality control aspects to one
07:55:07 <nigel> .. where you come as early as possible.
07:55:21 <nigel> .. The role is to allow WGs to go to HR groups as early as possible.
07:55:35 <nigel> .. So that it's easy to check the box on applying for transition
07:55:45 <nigel> i/plh/scribe: nigel
07:55:47 <nigel> scribe: plh
07:55:55 <plh> David: who gets to police if the Group did things right?
07:56:11 <plh> Fantasai: the Group needs to document and if they get caught, the publication can be revoked
07:56:19 <dsinger> ack ds
07:56:58 <dsinger> ack plh
07:57:00 <tantek> q?
07:57:09 <plh> Floran: WGs are supposed to be in consensus and the Team Contact should be paying attention
07:57:18 <tantek> q?
07:57:27 <nigel> q+
07:57:39 <tantek> q+ to ask if this CR streamlining has proposed Process text yet
07:57:42 <plh> Fantasai: different process fixes can be taken up by the Process at different times
07:57:45 <plh> ack nigel
07:59:00 <fantasai> fantasai: although I recommend we adopt these all together to have a good Process
07:59:13 <fantasai> nigel: says if there's dissent from commenter, then blocked from CR?
07:59:18 <JoeAndrieu> q?
07:59:26 <fantasai> fantasai: Not blocked, just can't use fast track -- have to get human approval
07:59:56 <fantasai> scribenick: fantasai
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08:00:04 <fantasai> tantek: is there Process draft ext on this?
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08:00:13 <fantasai> https://w3c.github.io/w3process/everblue/
08:00:17 <fantasai> https://services.w3.org/htmldiff?doc1=https%3A%2F%2Fw3c.github.io%2Fw3process%2F&doc2=https%3A%2F%2Fw3c.github.io%2Fw3process%2Feverblue
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08:00:26 <fantasai> florian: yes, draft text for most parts
08:00:30 <fantasai> florian: exception is patent policy
08:00:40 <fantasai> florian:and the decoupling on next slide, not drafted yet
08:00:44 <plh> scribe: plh
08:00:48 <tantek> Thank you!
08:00:50 <plh> scribeNick: plh
08:01:10 <plh> Fantasai: [Decoupling CR updates from CR review drafts]
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08:01:32 <Bert> s/Floran:/Florian:/
08:01:34 <plh> ... currently every CR updates trigger patent exclusions when you have to go through approvals, etc.
08:01:47 <plh> ... lawyers don't like this to happen often
08:01:56 <nigel_> q?
08:02:06 <plh> https://www.w3.org/2019/Talks/TPAC/continuous-standards/
08:02:14 <tantek> q-
08:02:43 <nigel_> q+ to ask if the CR Updates are always "routine"?
08:02:45 <plh> Fantasai: folks are looking at unofficial/editor draft instead of looking at the official spec
08:03:01 <nigel_> rrsagent, pointer?
08:03:01 <RRSAgent> See https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-w3process-irc#T08-03-01
08:03:12 <plh> ... proposal is to have two types of CR publications: review drafts and updates
08:03:25 <plh> ... updates wouldn't trigger patent exclusions/approvals
08:03:42 <plh> ... and would publish a review draft on a regular basis for exclusions and approvals
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08:04:11 <plh> ... you can update as much as you want until you feel you need a review draft
08:04:17 <pal> q+
08:04:30 <plh> NIgel: are the CR updates considered routine ones?
08:04:54 <plh> Fantasai: no, but you won't need the same level of approvals
08:05:31 <plh> Florian: for the updates, you won't have to prove everything, but you may get blocked for  a review draft
08:05:46 <plh> ... no checks, fast track or not happen on an update
08:06:18 <plh> David: if you publish 2 review drafts 2 months apart, they both trigger a call for exclusion?
08:06:27 <nigel_> s/NIgel/Nigel
08:06:45 <plh> plh: you need a minimum duration between 2 review drafts
08:06:47 <jorydotc_> q?
08:06:52 <nigel_> ack
08:06:54 <nigel_> ack n
08:06:54 <Zakim> nigel_, you wanted to ask if the CR Updates are always "routine"?
08:07:09 <plh> Pierre: so, you'll have a CR updates, and CR review drafts?
08:07:23 <plh> Fantasai: yes, changing state would be misleading
08:07:43 <plh> Florian: going back would signal a lower quality, so wrong signal
08:07:45 <dsinger> ack pal
08:08:10 <plh> David: why is this not like WHATWG with doing a review draft every 6 months?
08:08:26 <plh> Fantasai: because it's not automatic. you still need Director's approval
08:09:22 <plh> Pierre: today, you could do WD, WD, CR, then realize you forgot a feature, go back to WD, ...
08:09:36 <plh> David: why not doing a call for exclusion everything 6 months?
08:10:06 <plh> Florian: there is no point in the whatwg when someone checks the work done properly
08:10:36 <fantasai> plh: previous slide was about reducing overhread of asking Director's permission when everything is fine
08:10:59 <fantasai> plh: this is about facilitating publication of ED on /TR page
08:11:08 <fantasai> plh: so that people can show their latest work on the ?TR page
08:11:19 <fantasai> plh: without requiring Director approval every time they want to update the draft
08:11:36 <fantasai> plh: if you want a call for exclusion, you have to do what we do today which is to get a transtition approval from the Director
08:11:46 <fantasai> plh: we're not going to force WG to do that every time they want to update CR
08:13:13 <dsinger> q?
08:13:16 <fantasai> dsinger: then you could just publish forever, never get a patent review draft
08:13:26 <fantasai> plh: max 24 months you can do that, you need to get patent review
08:13:30 <astearns> May be better to say these things are seperable
08:14:02 <fantasai> pal: CR means two things to an external organizatioN: quality, and patent exlcusion
08:14:06 <dsinger> q?
08:14:12 <fantasai> pal: CR Update means WD with quality level of CR
08:15:02 <fantasai> nigel: There's later on an inline errata system for REC, why not do that instead of just make change?
08:15:23 <tantek> "Edited CR" - parallel to "Edited Recommendation"
08:15:29 <plh> Nigel: why not doing the udpates as annotations?
08:15:47 <tantek> s/udpates/updates
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08:16:32 <plh> Fantasai: when doing a lot of linked small changes, annotations would be confusing. it's easier to do that in Recommendations. For CR, it's hard, based on my experience as CSS editor.
08:16:53 <plh> ... having annotations would make it impossible to read
08:17:34 <plh> ... there is an encouragement to document your changes from review draft to review draft
08:18:23 <plh> Fantasai: [modifying a Recommendation]
08:19:43 <tantek> This looks good, except keep the existing "Edited Recommendation" phrase in the process
08:20:19 <dsinger> The documents that result from CR updates *are* of different status from CRs; they have had horizontal review waivers, no director review, and no exclusion opportunity.
08:20:48 <plh> Florian: because we're calling reviews on a subset of the changes, other could be kept as annotations
08:21:08 <plh> Fantasai: [allowing adding features to an extensible REC]
08:21:42 <nigel> q+ to ask why a charter-level pre-agreement is needed to be extensible
08:22:05 <plh> ack nigel
08:22:05 <Zakim> nigel, you wanted to ask why a charter-level pre-agreement is needed to be extensible
08:22:19 <plh> Nigel: can we simply let the wg decide?
08:22:26 <vivien> I was wondering if this update of REC proposed fix is going to replace Edited Recommendation and Amended Recommendation https://www.w3.org/2019/Process-20190301/#maturity-levels
08:22:30 <plh> Fantasai: we want to get AC review
08:22:34 <plh> Nigel: why?
08:23:05 <plh> Fantasai: because it depends on the community.
08:23:20 <plh> Nigel: how can the AC know the community better than the WG?
08:23:31 <plh> Fantasai: because it's a broader set of people
08:24:18 <plh> Travis: the distinction between REC and extensible REC, you'd do a new revision but it takes time
08:24:38 <nigel> I think we should check that out a bit more, who is best to decide if a REC should accept extensions
08:24:54 <tantek> q?
08:25:00 <tantek> Zakim, close the queue
08:25:00 <Zakim> ok, tantek, the speaker queue is closed
08:25:18 <fantasai> Travis: From working on HTML, we just revved version number when adding new features
08:25:37 <fantasai> Travis: Main problem was it took so long to get REC, maybe just shortcut process for getting to new REC from old REC
08:26:16 <plh> rrsagent, generate minutes
08:26:16 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-w3process-minutes.html plh
08:26:19 <plh> rrsagent, make logs public-visible
08:26:26 <fantasai> Travis: instead of changing meaning of REC
08:26:31 <fantasai> fantasai: I like that proposal
08:26:35 <fantasai> AC poll - https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/33280/improved-pp-2019/
08:26:39 <plh> rrsagent, generate minutes
08:26:39 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-w3process-minutes.html plh
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