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05:34:21 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-virtual-scroller-irc
05:34:49 <zcorpan__> ScribeNick: zcorpan
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05:34:57 <AmeliaBR> present+
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05:35:06 <zcorpan__> RRSAgent, make logs world-readable
05:35:14 <zcorpan__> RRSAgent, make logs
05:35:14 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'make logs', zcorpan__.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
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05:35:22 <zcorpan__> RRSAgent, make minutes
05:35:22 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-virtual-scroller-minutes.html zcorpan__
05:35:24 <dauwhe_> present+
05:35:28 <romain_> present+
05:35:30 <zcorpan__> present+
05:35:39 <mstange> present+
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05:35:43 <zcorpan__> Topic: Virtual scroller
05:35:54 <zcorpan__> [presentation]
05:35:59 <spectranaut> note taking reference: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1bor78BuB-bnb_m-5JSWziMirgUivI00197l3QqdGNgU/edit?usp=sharing
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05:36:31 <marisa> present+
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05:37:14 <rniwa> present+
05:37:18 <JuanCorona> present+
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05:38:12 <zcorpan__> fergal_daly: behaves mostly as an empty div
05:38:21 <zcorpan__> fergal_daly: contains style and layout at the moment
05:38:59 <spectranaut> present+ Valerie Young, Bocoup
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05:39:10 <drousso> present_
05:39:12 <drousso> present+
05:39:12 <zcorpan__> present- Bocoup
05:39:35 <zcorpan__> fergal_daly: the contents are not in the DOM...
05:39:40 <zcorpan__> fergal_daly: like display: none
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05:40:13 <smfr> present+
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05:40:35 <mattwoodrow> present+
05:40:52 <zcorpan__> fergal_daly: WICG/display-locking
05:41:06 <zcorpan__> fergal_daly: activatable
05:41:19 <zcorpan__> fergal_daly: has same perf characteristics
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05:41:29 <JakeA> I made the DOM comment before
05:41:30 <zcorpan__> fergal_daly: behave as if it's visible
05:42:02 <zcorpan__> fergal_daly: focus() scrollIntoView(), find in page, can reveal content
05:42:07 <zcorpan__> fergal_daly: deferred cost
05:42:13 <zcorpan__> fergal_daly: tab navigation
05:42:21 <zcorpan__> fergal_daly: anchor navigation, selection
05:42:41 <zcorpan__> fergal_daly: a11y purposes
05:42:54 <zcorpan__> fergal_daly: idea is that you build a scroller using this
05:43:05 <zcorpan__> fergal_daly: previously you would delete DOM objects
05:43:15 <zcorpan__> fergal_daly: instead you can build a scroller where things are invisible activatable
05:43:22 <zcorpan__> fergal_daly: things inside are visible as normal
05:43:31 <zcorpan__> fergal_daly: the browser will activate and scroll into view
05:43:39 <zcorpan__> fergal_daly: make the things around it visible as well
05:43:59 <zcorpan__> smfr: are you relying on intersectionobserver?
05:44:02 <zcorpan__> fergal_daly: yes
05:44:10 <zcorpan__> fergal_daly: debate on when things are activated
05:44:27 <zcorpan__> heycam: type cntr+f
05:44:39 <zcorpan__> fergal_daly: activate the first one
05:44:46 <zcorpan__> fergal_daly: have to figure out what to do with the tick parts
05:44:47 <cbiesinger> q=
05:44:49 <cbiesinger> q+
05:45:14 <smfr> q+
05:45:25 <zcorpan__> Domenic: all the elements above will push down
05:45:53 <zcorpan__> Domenic: accuracy of scrollbars vs performance
05:46:03 <zcorpan__> Domenic: tickmarks will be "pretty good"
05:46:11 <zcorpan__> fergal_daly: yeah, tradeoff
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05:46:34 <smaug> mstange
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05:46:48 <zcorpan__> mstange: if the user presses the first letter of the find bar ???
05:46:59 <zcorpan__> X???: something something
05:47:08 <zcorpan__> q?
05:47:19 <zcorpan__> cbiesinger: does it require javacsript to activate?
05:47:21 <drousso> q?
05:47:22 <mstange> s/find bar ???/find bar, does the entire page need to be styled?/
05:47:24 <drousso> q+
05:47:27 <zcorpan__> fergal_daly: yes
05:47:31 <xiaochengh> q+ for selection activation
05:47:43 <zcorpan__> fergal_daly: should scrolling activate or not?
05:47:43 <mstange> s/X???: something something/fergal_daly: Yes, but you can do it in chunks./
05:48:04 <zcorpan__> Chris: I'll go with consensus
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05:48:13 <zcorpan__> smfr: find a bunch of things containing A's
05:48:21 <zcorpan__> fergal_daly: first thing will be activated
05:48:33 <zcorpan__> smfr: it's now always going to paint, unless JS makes it invisible again?
05:48:45 <zcorpan__> smfr: ctrl+a can make all things visible?
05:48:55 <zcorpan__> Domenic: only the first thing that is found
05:49:06 <zcorpan__> fergal_daly: it will reveal the one with "a"
05:49:10 <zcorpan__> fergal_daly: it will scroll to that
05:49:17 <zcorpan__> fergal_daly: it should reveal everything around it
05:49:31 <zcorpan__> rniwa: something
05:50:01 <zcorpan__> rniwa: have to do layout in order to find anything at all
05:50:12 <zcorpan__> AmeliaBR: innerText workings
05:50:16 <zcorpan__> rniwa: which requires layout
05:50:22 <zcorpan__> Domenic: in browsers and spec
05:50:29 <zcorpan__> rniwa: that's not how you'd implement it
05:50:48 <zcorpan__> koji: (something)
05:51:02 <zcorpan__> smfr: the UA part of that is UA-dependent how to find stuff
05:51:15 <zcorpan__> Domenic: thjere's nothing in the spec about find
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05:51:21 <chrishtr> q?
05:51:22 <zcorpan__> Domenic: anchor navigation is specified
05:51:27 <zcorpan__> rniwa: it's observable
05:51:33 <JakeA> q+ interested to hear the order of events on anchor navigation
05:51:36 <zcorpan__> rniwa: how would you find out what's there
05:51:43 <zcorpan__> rniwa: image doesn't load, use alt text
05:51:43 <smfr> q-
05:51:46 <cbiesinger> ack cbiesinger
05:51:57 <zcorpan__> rniwa: sounds like a terrible user experience
05:52:12 <zcorpan__> Domenic: currently user doesn't find anything at all because it's not in th eDOM
05:52:21 <zcorpan__> rniwa: if you choose to implement your website that way
05:52:27 <zcorpan__> fergal_daly: people do
05:52:39 <zcorpan__> fergal_daly: for a largely text site it should just work
05:52:40 <zcorpan__> q?
05:52:49 <zcorpan__> ack drousso
05:52:56 <zcorpan__> drousso: if you're dealing with custom elements
05:52:58 <smaug> q+
05:53:04 <zcorpan__> drousso: have to delay until custom element finishes its upgrade
05:53:05 <JakeA> q+
05:53:16 <zcorpan__> drousso: delaying until script is done
05:53:18 <zcorpan__> fergal_daly: yes
05:53:40 <zcorpan__> fergal_daly: can imagine things in the DOM where things are done nicely first before the user scrolls
05:53:48 <zcorpan__> fergal_daly: take control of sequencing
05:54:03 <zcorpan__> drousso: (something)
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05:54:22 <zcorpan__> q?
05:54:46 <zcorpan__> Chris: if you remove those values from the list of things in the render subtree
05:55:03 <zcorpan__> Chris: elements not defined in the subtree will be run in the next microtask subtask
05:55:11 <zcorpan__> Domenic: spec is not finilized
05:55:22 <zcorpan__> chrishtr: will be kicked off in the usual order
05:55:27 <zcorpan__> q?
05:55:48 <zcorpan__> ack xiaochengh
05:55:48 <Zakim> xiaochengh, you wanted to discuss selection activation
05:56:01 <zcorpan__> xiaochengh: interaction , can't activate the subtree
05:56:09 <zcorpan__> fergal_daly: all we can do is better than what we do now
05:56:12 <zcorpan__> fergal_daly: it's not magic
05:56:20 <zcorpan__> fergal_daly: we need to have things formatted and pasted
05:56:30 <zcorpan__> xiaochengh: can we delay that until Cntrl+c
05:56:48 <zcorpan__> chrishtr: we can do it sync when we want, just like ctrl+f
05:57:05 <heycam> q+
05:57:05 <zcorpan__> AmeliaBR: making it more UA-dependent when this content becomes real instead of virtual
05:57:16 <zcorpan__> AmeliaBR: the UA can decide how to interact with these in a useful way
05:57:17 <zcorpan__> q?
05:57:25 <heycam> ack interested
05:57:25 <Zakim> interested, you wanted to hear the order of events on anchor navigation
05:57:36 <zcorpan__> smaug: breaks microtask model
05:57:49 <zcorpan__> smaug: calls (something) at random times
05:57:55 <zcorpan__> smaug: extra microtask checkpoints
05:58:02 <zcorpan__> Domenic: let's cue a task to do a thing
05:58:03 <zcorpan__> smaug: ok
05:58:08 <zcorpan__> chrishtr: point well taken
05:58:18 <zcorpan__> JakeA: if there's a sudden movement in scroll pos
05:58:28 <zcorpan__> JakeA: anchor is visible but jumping to 500'th
05:58:35 <zcorpan__> fergal_daly: virtual scroller problem
05:58:42 <zcorpan__> fergal_daly: if it's "scroll by this many pixels"
05:58:54 <zcorpan__> fergal_daly: we need an API for author or external user for size hinting or something
05:59:13 <zcorpan__> fergal_daly: absolute size, relative to things you've seen so far...
05:59:15 <chrishtr> q?
05:59:19 <zcorpan__> fergal_daly: tradeoff of do you want to render or not
05:59:29 <zcorpan__> JakeA: the invisible ones, or they all come into view at once
05:59:30 <zcorpan__> q?
05:59:38 <heycam> ack heycam
05:59:39 <smaug> q-
05:59:43 <JakeA> q-
05:59:51 <zcorpan__> heycam: in this model of virtual scroller
06:00:02 <zcorpan__> heycam: would be pretty common to style the entire page
06:00:08 <zcorpan__> heycam: when you find in page
06:00:20 <zcorpan__> heycam: a box for those things, potentially very large DOM
06:00:23 <zcorpan__> heycam: large box tree
06:00:28 <zcorpan__> fergal_daly: many things in a row
06:00:38 <zcorpan__> heycam: yea. not be able to avoid styling the entire doc
06:00:48 <zcorpan__> heycam: reflow and frame construction for rthings not displayed
06:00:57 <zcorpan__> heycam: hwo perf gonna be when you still need to do those things
06:01:05 <zcorpan__> fergal_daly: it's a problem, will come to it later
06:01:15 <zcorpan__> Domenic: demos show how fast this makes things
06:01:25 <zcorpan__> Topic: Scroller API
06:01:41 <zcorpan__> fergal_daly: JSON<-> DOM
06:01:48 <zcorpan__> fergal_daly: unusual API but I think it's nice
06:02:05 <zcorpan__> fergal_daly: API is <virtual-scroller>, put yoru content inside, it works
06:02:13 <zcorpan__> fergal_daly: it knows when to hide stuff
06:02:24 <zcorpan__> smfr: you're proposing a new element?
06:02:30 <zcorpan__> fergal_daly: it's a custom element
06:02:33 <zcorpan__> LOL
06:02:41 <zcorpan__> fergal_daly: it's very nice!
06:02:47 <zcorpan__> fergal_daly: you can delete divs,
06:02:52 <zcorpan__> fergal_daly: scrollbars require an API
06:03:10 <zcorpan__> fergal_daly: it's a container that knows when to hide its children
06:03:23 <zcorpan__> fergal_daly: how gonna do it? not machine learning...
06:03:28 <zcorpan__> fergal_daly: observe visible content
06:03:35 <zcorpan__> fergal_daly: tradeoffs, can't have everything
06:03:47 <zcorpan__> fergal_daly: assumes visible order == DOM order
06:03:54 <zcorpan__> fergal_daly: latency issue, no timing guarantees
06:03:59 <zcorpan__> fergal_daly: hasn't been a problem yet
06:04:09 <zcorpan__> fergal_daly: interserction observer looks like. it's observing these elements
06:04:12 <zcorpan__> fergal_daly: also mutation observer
06:04:29 <zcorpan__> fergal_daly: just moving things around, all we need to do is observe things visible, one above, one below
06:04:40 <zcorpan__> fergal_daly: will trigger at least one of the observers and we'll react
06:04:48 <zcorpan__> fergal_daly: if anyone can think of other cases...
06:05:09 <zcorpan__> AmeliaBR: interserction observer uses position after transformations?
06:05:10 <zcorpan__> fergal_daly: yes
06:05:17 <zcorpan__> fergal_daly: don't need to observe the whole world
06:05:41 <zcorpan__> fergal_daly: mutation observer, lets us know when content has changed
06:05:55 <zcorpan__> fergal_daly: slots everything into one big slot
06:06:07 <zcorpan__> fergal_daly: later prototype with 1 slot per child
06:06:20 <zcorpan__> fergal_daly: can baloon the number of slots, but seems to work ok
06:06:37 <zcorpan__> fergal_daly: this would actually scroll. a div, overflow:scroll, virtual-scroller inside
06:06:37 <JuanCorona> q?
06:06:42 <zcorpan__> fergal_daly: we don't know about scrollbars
06:06:48 <zcorpan__> Topic: Demos
06:07:01 <zcorpan__> fergal_daly: simple infinite scroller
06:07:10 <JakeA> q+
06:07:30 <zcorpan__> (shows demo that scrolls and stuff is fetched on scroll)
06:07:40 <zcorpan__> fergal_daly: can't observe thing being locked, but it is
06:07:52 <zcorpan__> fergal_daly: just replace div with virtual-scroller
06:08:05 <zcorpan__> fergal_daly: another demo. this is more interesting because this is just content
06:08:13 <zcorpan__> fergal_daly: addresss book
06:08:17 <zcorpan__> fergal_daly: sticky position
06:08:23 <zcorpan__> fergal_daly: B pops up as you go
06:08:27 <zcorpan__> fergal_daly: done the same way
06:08:38 <zcorpan__> fergal_daly: all it does is replace virtual-scroller with div
06:08:48 <zcorpan__> fergal_daly: some virtual scroller have ???
06:08:58 <zcorpan__> fergal_daly: do things as you would normally
06:09:15 <zcorpan__> fergal_daly: (demo resizing doing relayout) 60fps
06:09:20 <zcorpan__> fergal_daly: with div, 30fps
06:10:07 <zcorpan__> heycam: how many elements?
06:10:10 <zcorpan__> fergal_daly: 500
06:10:16 <zcorpan__> fergal_daly: wanted to add more
06:10:24 <zcorpan__> JakeA: hwo are you handling fling scrolling?
06:10:38 <zcorpan__> fergal_daly: it does unlock a region above and below
06:10:43 <zcorpan__> fergal_daly: can't do in this demo
06:10:46 <zcorpan__> fergal_daly: it's an issue
06:10:52 <zcorpan__> fergal_daly: fling can jump very far
06:11:00 <zcorpan__> Domenic: it takes a frame or so to catch up
06:11:15 <zcorpan__> JakeA: hit intersection observer... layout trashing?
06:11:21 <zcorpan__> Domenic: happens once a frame
06:11:29 <zcorpan__> Domenic: fling takes half a second. 30 frames
06:11:46 <zcorpan__> chrishtr: how much does JS need to catch up
06:11:50 <zcorpan__> smfr: (missed)
06:12:03 <zcorpan__> fergal_daly: don't have a demo
06:12:10 <smfr> s/(missed)/it depends on how your IO works. you can add margins too
06:12:13 <zcorpan__> AmeliaBR: intersectionobserver would tell something is onscreen
06:12:27 <zcorpan__> fergal_daly: figuring out what should be onscreen takes JS to figure out
06:12:34 <zcorpan__> fergal_daly: it gets new stuff on screen in the same frame
06:12:39 <zcorpan__> JakeA: fixed height?
06:12:53 <zcorpan__> fergal_daly: it won't be the same stuff that comes on screen. will be different stuff
06:13:09 <zcorpan__> fergal_daly: it'll go down 60% and determine based on placeholder heights
06:13:18 <zcorpan__> JakeA: so for display:none, things are at the top
06:13:23 <zcorpan__> JakeA: JS has to take a guess
06:13:25 <zcorpan__> fergal_daly: yes
06:13:47 <JakeA> q-
06:14:13 <zcorpan__> fergal_daly: can resize font
06:14:18 <zcorpan__> fergal_daly: can restlye things
06:14:26 <zcorpan__> fergal_daly: lower fps with the div
06:14:38 <zcorpan__> fergal_daly: ok so the HTML standard...
06:14:47 <zcorpan__> fergal_daly: it's a pretty heavy doc. 11MB with a lot of stuff
06:14:54 <zcorpan__> fergal_daly: not as bad as it used to be
06:15:07 <zcorpan__> fergal_daly: (showing waterfall of page load)
06:15:23 <zcorpan__> fergal_daly: happily it's a doc with 11000 elements that are siblings
06:15:32 <zcorpan__> fergal_daly: using virtual-scroller is easy
06:15:36 <zcorpan__> fergal_daly: far fewer red frames
06:16:12 <zcorpan__> fergal_daly: doc got better at some point
06:16:20 <zcorpan__> Domenic: cntrl+f works!
06:16:31 <zcorpan__> Domenic: user experience when loading page is much smoother
06:16:49 <zcorpan__> fergal_daly: there was a problem with ctrl+f... took 5 minutes with 100% cpu
06:16:53 <zcorpan__> Domenic: few more days!
06:17:12 <zcorpan__> AmeliaBR: perf issue of HTML spec can have to do with custom element upgrading
06:17:43 <zcorpan__> fergal_daly: 1000 divs is still pretty heavy
06:17:53 <zcorpan__> fergal_daly: more proof of concept than a prototype
06:18:13 <zcorpan__> fergal_daly: loading the HTML standard again, loading into a thing
06:18:18 <zcorpan__> fergal_daly: many many slots
06:18:22 <zcorpan__> fergal_daly: takes a while to load
06:18:46 <zcorpan__> fergal_daly: resizing the HTML standard, 20-30 fps
06:19:06 <zcorpan__> heycam: what content size property?
06:19:14 <zcorpan__> fergal_daly: this is a different implementation. tree impl
06:19:27 <zcorpan__> fergal_daly: tree impl builds a 16 way tree of elements
06:19:31 <zcorpan__> fergal_daly: leaves are slots
06:19:43 <zcorpan__> fergal_daly: leaves are grouped together in 16, in 16, etc
06:19:51 <zcorpan__> fergal_daly: slots and all of their ancestors
06:19:58 <zcorpan__> fergal_daly: no long runs of divs of what is unlocked
06:20:08 <zcorpan__> koji: (missed question)
06:20:19 <zcorpan__> heycam: may be relevant for scrollbar thumb size
06:20:25 <zcorpan__> fergal_daly: sets a fixed content sizes
06:20:31 <zcorpan__> fergal_daly: sums them and makes them bigger
06:20:43 <zcorpan__> fergal_daly: tree one has more complex implementation
06:21:05 <zcorpan__> fergal_daly: 10,000 pagagraphs, works fine
06:21:08 <chrishtr> present+
06:21:11 <chrishtr> q?
06:21:15 <zcorpan__> fergal_daly: sibling can go down to 2fps
06:21:18 <Domenic> s/10,000/100,000
06:21:29 <zcorpan__> Domenic: rendersubtree is very scalable
06:21:41 <zcorpan__> smfr: (something)
06:22:04 <zcorpan__> AmeliaBR: in initial intro, virtual scrolelr is about content loading. also as you scroll down, removing content
06:22:09 <smfr> s/(something)/this is a different virtual-scroller impl, right? yes. so you can nest them? yes
06:22:12 <zcorpan__> AmeliaBR: that side doesn't seem to be part of the proposal
06:22:20 <zcorpan__> AmeliaBR: accumulate
06:22:26 <smfr> q+
06:22:29 <zcorpan__> fergal_daly: invisible things at the top
06:22:36 <zcorpan__> fergal_daly: small window of visible things
06:22:42 <zcorpan__> fergal_daly: browser CAN discard
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06:22:57 <zcorpan__> AmeliaBR: ok, 2 things that are tangled
06:23:01 <zcorpan__> AmeliaBR: custom element
06:23:11 <zcorpan__> AmeliaBR: browser would be able to address things based on user interaction
06:23:16 <zcorpan__> AmeliaBR: removing the attribute
06:23:27 <zcorpan__> AmeliaBR: i don't know how it would know how to put the attribute back on
06:23:31 <zcorpan__> fergal_daly: the browser wouldn't
06:23:44 <zcorpan__> koji: doing subtree?
06:23:53 <zcorpan__> fergal_daly: rendersubtree is more readily standardizable thing
06:24:16 <zcorpan__> Domenic: interest in ??? need primitive first.
06:24:26 <zcorpan__> koji: rendersubtree is what we want to standardize
06:24:34 <zcorpan__> fergal_daly: no proposal to standardize virtual-scroller
06:24:49 <zcorpan__> Majid: (missed)
06:24:57 <zcorpan__> fergal_daly: tab set.. details element
06:25:11 <zcorpan__> fergal_daly: cant' currently recreate the details element, can with this
06:25:17 <rniwa> q?
06:25:20 <zcorpan__> chrishtr: optimizing page load generally
06:25:39 <zcorpan__> chrishtr: do the details element , or not actually close the details element and stil have good perf
06:26:06 <zcorpan__> fergal_daly: google style guides, all collapsed, ctrl+f... need to uncollapse before searching
06:26:20 <zcorpan__> chrishtr: invisible content is still in the DOM, still has layout conceptually
06:26:32 <zcorpan__> chrishtr: if script wanted to it could read that layout without displaying content
06:26:44 <zcorpan__> Majid: accessibility
06:26:50 <zcorpan__> fergal_daly: the content is there
06:27:05 <zcorpan__> AmeliaBR: hope there's an area for virtual content
06:27:25 <zcorpan__> smfr: hwo much of the proposal can you remove but keep optimization in the browser
06:27:34 <zcorpan__> smfr: you can remove complexity
06:27:41 <zcorpan__> smfr: is there a reduced version of this?
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06:27:48 <zcorpan__> smfr: can we not need this attribute?
06:28:02 <zcorpan__> smfr: containment plus content-size plsu something custom elements
06:28:03 <kiyoshi> present+
06:28:16 <zcorpan__> Domenic: need an opt-in fo rthe perf tradeoff
06:28:35 <zcorpan__> Domenic: CSSWG wanted to maek it usable for visible content
06:28:42 <zcorpan__> chrishtr: if we had a thing like that...
06:28:55 <zcorpan__> chrishtr: browser could notice that it doesn't need to render
06:29:01 <zcorpan__> chrishtr: remove the size containment
06:29:08 <zcorpan__> chrishtr: it would have to remove the inviisble thing
06:29:15 <zcorpan__> chrishtr: would result in something like this
06:29:28 <zcorpan__> chrishtr: if yo ucan think of another way to do it, would be amazing
06:29:42 <zcorpan__> JakeA: tabs case compelling... not something yo uscroll to
06:29:49 <zcorpan__> smfr: background tab, events
06:30:04 <zcorpan__> rniwa: (missed) not for us
06:30:16 <zcorpan__> chrishtr: it's technically not required
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06:30:22 <zcorpan__> fergal_daly: filtering with mutation observer
06:30:28 <rniwa> q?
06:30:32 <zcorpan__> JakeA: do we have other APIs where browser changes attributes?
06:30:35 <zcorpan__> Domenic: details
06:30:44 <zcorpan__> RRSAgent, make minutes
06:30:44 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-virtual-scroller-minutes.html zcorpan__
06:31:10 <zcorpan__> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1bor78BuB-bnb_m-5JSWziMirgUivI00197l3QqdGNgU/edit#gid=0
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07:49:54 <AmeliaBR> s/hope there's an area for virtual content/hope you're coordinating with the aria-virtualcontent proposal/
07:50:13 <AmeliaBR> RRSAgent, make minutes
07:50:13 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-virtual-scroller-minutes.html AmeliaBR
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