IRC log of spec-infra on 2019-09-18
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 01:48:32 [RRSAgent]
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- logging to https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-spec-infra-irc
- 01:48:34 [wseltzer]
- rrsagent, make logs public
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- 05:31:56 [cb]
- scribenick: cb
- 05:32:08 [cb]
- scribenick cb
- 05:32:15 [vivien]
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- 05:32:40 [vivien]
- vivien has changed the topic to: Spec editing infrastructure https://w3c.github.io/tpac-breakouts/sessions.html#spec-infra
- 05:32:48 [cb]
- introduction of participants
- 05:33:15 [tobie]
- +present
- 05:33:18 [TabAtkins]
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- 05:33:20 [vivien]
- +present
- 05:33:21 [cb]
- +present
- 05:33:29 [TabAtkins]
- present+
- 05:33:40 [rachelandrew_]
- present+ Rachel Andrew
- 05:33:43 [joemedley]
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- 05:34:05 [Kangchan]
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- 05:35:32 [odejesush]
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- 05:35:41 [plinss]
- present+ Peter Linss, Invited Expert
- 05:36:26 [Mek]
- present+
- 05:36:36 [Lan]
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- 05:36:49 [odejesush]
- present+
- 05:36:53 [foolip]
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- 05:36:58 [foolip]
- present+
- 05:37:07 [dsinger]
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- 05:37:12 [Lan]
- present+
- 05:37:22 [Kangchan]
- present+
- 05:37:27 [dsinger]
- present+ dsinger
- 05:37:43 [foolip]
- RRSAgent: are you logging?
- 05:37:43 [RRSAgent]
- I'm logging. Sorry, nothing found for 'are you logging'
- 05:37:48 [cb]
- tobie: I am interested: with the given tooling, what holes are there?
- 05:37:51 [denis]
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- 05:37:59 [jyasskin]
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- 05:38:00 [cb]
- tobie: how can these tools be funded
- 05:38:14 [cb]
- tobie: this work should be paid
- 05:38:30 [cb]
- tobie: with more money coming in the more incentive to work in these is
- 05:38:31 [jyasskin]
- q+ to talk about finding all uses
- 05:38:40 [Zakim]
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- 05:39:38 [cb]
- jyasskin: would love to find all use cases in specs
- 05:39:54 [iclellan1]
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- 05:40:25 [hiroshige]
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- 05:41:22 [duerst]
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- 05:41:53 [duerst]
- present+
- 05:42:06 [iclellan1]
- present+
- 05:43:28 [yoshiaki_]
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- 05:43:42 [cb]
- foolip: would be great to get a list of specs we care about
- 05:44:02 [foolip]
- q?
- 05:44:48 [jyasskin]
- s/all use cases in specs/all uses of some definition in all specs/
- 05:46:00 [foolip]
- scribenick foolip
- 05:46:26 [foolip]
- tobie: do we have a good understanding of all the tooling?
- 05:46:41 [foolip]
- tobie: there's Bikeshed and ReSpec (and wattsi...)
- 05:46:44 [jorydotcom]
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- 05:46:54 [jorydotcom]
- present+
- 05:47:02 [foolip]
- tobie: then there's shepherd for x-refs
- 05:47:09 [foolip]
- tobie: for biblio, that's specref
- 05:47:22 [foolip]
- tobie: we have PR Preview for showing previews on GitHub PRs
- 05:47:27 [foolip]
- tobie: that relies on a bunch of services:
- 05:47:38 [foolip]
- tobie: html-diff maintained by dom
- 05:47:48 [foolip]
- tobie: and the Bikeshed web service
- 05:47:59 [foolip]
- tobie: and the ReSpec spec generator
- 05:48:09 [foolip]
- iclellan1: there's also echidna
- 05:48:12 [foolip]
- foolip: what's that?
- 05:48:20 [foolip]
- TabAtkins: that's autopublifying
- 05:48:35 [foolip]
- denis: there's a system where you send spec for publication
- 05:48:47 [foolip]
- denis: if you pass checks you get published to TR
- 05:48:54 [plinss]
- test.csswg.org/shepherd
- 05:49:28 [foolip]
- MikeSmith: with approval from the WG, it allows you publish living standard at /TR/, wher before it was outdated
- 05:49:42 [foolip]
- MikeSmith: in other words /TR/ becomes editor's draft
- 05:50:05 [yoshiaki]
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- 05:50:05 [foolip]
- MikeSmith: we should quit publishing old stuff to TR
- 05:50:22 [foolip]
- foolip: I distrust TR 100% of the time. How common is this?
- 05:51:01 [foolip]
- MikeSmith: it's better than before, but you should use ED for the very latest
- 05:51:15 [foolip]
- vivien: in the WebRTC all specs use echidna
- 05:51:32 [MikeSmith]
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- 05:51:47 [foolip]
- vivien: you can integrate this with your GitHub workflow
- 05:51:51 [astearns]
- You can reduce the 100% somewhat now due to echidna
- 05:51:56 [foolip]
- annevk: this is like the W3C's build.sh
- 05:52:09 [jyasskin]
- q+
- 05:52:30 [foolip]
- plinss: CSSWG also has a tool that regenerates spec
- 05:52:33 [foolip]
- ack jyasskin
- 05:52:49 [foolip]
- the last time I tried to use Echidna I had to do some curl command, a GitHub App would be helpful
- 05:52:59 [vivien]
- +1
- 05:53:05 [foolip]
- tobie: I think we've listed all the tools now
- 05:53:08 [foolip]
- tobie: do we have gaps?
- 05:53:19 [dsinger]
- q+
- 05:53:22 [foolip]
- tobie: what's missing?
- 05:53:26 [foolip]
- TabAtkins: the spec list obviously
- 05:53:45 [foolip]
- tobie: another thing is a way for spec editors to know where to add specs
- 05:53:46 [foolip]
- q?
- 05:53:51 [TabAtkins]
- q+
- 05:53:52 [foolip]
- ack dsinger
- 05:54:02 [foolip]
- dsinger: my dream is that we manage the past and future better
- 05:54:26 [foolip]
- dsinger: in other words, would love a tool where the spec says "there are issues filed against this spec" or "there are provisional updates to this section"
- 05:54:36 [vivien]
- q+ use of tr.rdf (legacy) / W3C API ?
- 05:54:46 [vivien]
- q+ to ask about use of tr.rdf (legacy) / W3C API ?
- 05:54:47 [MikeSmith]
- q+ to mention mdn annoys
- 05:54:49 [foolip]
- TabAtkins: can you file an issue at https://github.com/tabatkins/bikeshed?
- 05:54:55 [wonsuk___]
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- 05:55:01 [foolip]
- q?
- 05:55:16 [foolip]
- ack TabAtkins
- 05:55:48 [foolip]
- TabAtkins: there's a ReSpec session at 4 that an intern/coworker did to expose shepherd's link database
- 05:56:01 [foolip]
- TabAtkins: it's only giving you ReSpec syntax now, but could do Bikehsed
- 05:56:20 [foolip]
- TabAtkins: look up `bikeshed refs -h` for a local tool
- 05:56:20 [jyasskin]
- q+ to talk about documentation
- 05:56:28 [tobie]
- ack vivien
- 05:56:29 [Zakim]
- vivien, you wanted to ask about use of tr.rdf (legacy) / W3C API ?
- 05:56:30 [foolip]
- ack vivien
- 05:56:44 [foolip]
- vivien: don't know if people depend on tr.rdf?
- 05:56:50 [foolip]
- tobie: I use it (specref)
- 05:57:04 [foolip]
- vivien: there's a new API (JSON) that replaces this
- 05:57:22 [yoshiaki]
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- 05:57:24 [vivien]
- s/use it/use tr.rdf/
- 05:57:24 [foolip]
- tobie: I use RDF, JSON didn't exist when I wrote the tool
- 05:57:44 [foolip]
- tobie: does anyone else depend on this?
- 05:57:49 [foolip]
- foolip: I depend on it via specref
- 05:57:55 [tobie]
- ack MikeSmith
- 05:57:55 [Zakim]
- MikeSmith, you wanted to mention mdn annoys
- 05:58:04 [foolip]
- MikeSmith: MDN annotations
- 05:58:21 [foolip]
- MikeSmith: I build a thing for HTML which adds annotations in the margin where you define an interface / method
- 05:58:32 [jyasskin]
- s/build/built/
- 05:58:39 [foolip]
- MikeSmith: It also pulls in data from https://github.com/mdn/browser-compat-data
- 05:58:42 [tobie]
- q?
- 05:58:49 [foolip]
- MikeSmith: that's browser support data
- 05:59:00 [foolip]
- MikeSmith: in the HTML spec, you can see link to both MDN and the compat data
- 05:59:13 [foolip]
- MikeSmith: Marcos had a contributor add it to ReSpec
- 05:59:28 [foolip]
- MikeSmith: for ReSpec, it automatically generates those annotations
- 05:59:44 [foolip]
- MikeSmith: want to do this for Bikeshed too, not a huge effort, but need a contributor
- 05:59:59 [foolip]
- MikeSmith: so that using Bikeshed you get the same linking
- 06:00:14 [yoshiaki]
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- 06:00:25 [foolip]
- MikeSmith: maybe unique for the HTML spec, but we need to determine which features only have 1 or no implementation, for process resasons
- 06:00:40 [foolip]
- MikeSmith: having a way to do that for other specs would be nice, automating that would be great
- 06:01:23 [foolip]
- jyasskin: "Bikeshed can do that" has been said, and experts don't know yet
- 06:01:35 [foolip]
- [all] documentation needed
- 06:01:50 [foolip]
- jorydotcom: Bocoup's working on a guide for contributing to the web platform
- 06:02:01 [tobie]
- ack jyasskin
- 06:02:02 [Zakim]
- jyasskin, you wanted to talk about documentation
- 06:02:05 [foolip]
- TabAtkins: who did the MDN annotations for wattsi?
- 06:02:10 [foolip]
- MikeSmith: me
- 06:02:28 [foolip]
- TabAtkins: let's talk about how you get the compat data
- 06:02:34 [foolip]
- tobie: funding aspect
- 06:02:56 [foolip]
- tobie: It would be interesting to find a way for folks working at companies to fund this work
- 06:03:05 [foolip]
- tobie: Would like to set up an opencollective fund
- 06:03:14 [jyasskin]
- https://opencollective.com/
- 06:03:28 [foolip]
- tobie: they're a startup for funding open source project, they're a legal entity that can take money and distrubute it
- 06:03:44 [foolip]
- tobie: know that the AMP team funds some projects that it relies on using opencollective
- 06:03:46 [foolip]
- q+
- 06:03:47 [foolip]
- q?
- 06:04:23 [foolip]
- tobie: would also be great with some way to monitor services, finding what needs help
- 06:04:44 [foolip]
- tobie: cost of hosting is low, and companies have payed for that, but someone needs a credit card
- 06:04:51 [foolip]
- tobie: AWS bill might blow up
- 06:04:58 [foolip]
- tobie: would like to see a more sane situation for this
- 06:05:08 [foolip]
- tobie: also to fund more people
- 06:05:16 [MikeSmith]
- q+ to ask about Outreachy and mention GSOC experiences
- 06:05:34 [tobie]
- ack foolip
- 06:06:33 [foolip]
- foolip: I have requested budget for this, think it would be great if others would do the same
- 06:06:48 [foolip]
- tobie: the structure is tied to my LLC
- 06:07:04 [foolip]
- tobie: for others to be able to do work, we'd need a bigger fund
- 06:07:22 [foolip]
- annevk: how does distribution work?
- 06:07:34 [foolip]
- tobie: would probably imply creating some sort of board
- 06:07:45 [yoshiaki]
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- 06:07:58 [tobie]
- q?
- 06:08:01 [foolip]
- annevk: would it be easier to make it part of the W3C?
- 06:08:05 [foolip]
- q+
- 06:08:14 [jyasskin]
- ack MikeSmith
- 06:08:14 [Zakim]
- MikeSmith, you wanted to ask about Outreachy and mention GSOC experiences
- 06:08:41 [foolip]
- MikeSmith: want to mention for history: I've tried in the past GSOC (Google Summer of Code)
- 06:08:56 [foolip]
- MikeSmith: proposals were rejected
- 06:09:17 [foolip]
- MikeSmith: that way of getting contributors didn't...
- 06:09:26 [foolip]
- MikeSmith: I know annevk has done work with Outreachy
- 06:09:33 [foolip]
- https://www.outreachy.org/
- 06:09:44 [foolip]
- MikeSmith: that's been more successful I think
- 06:10:13 [foolip]
- jgraham: I've used Outreachy for other test infrastructure stuff, think it's a good problem that I'd recommend
- 06:10:38 [foolip]
- jgraham: there are some practical things. you get a lot of upfront work, and you probably don't have 40 trivial bugs to work on
- 06:10:47 [tobie]
- q+
- 06:10:49 [foolip]
- jgraham: but if you get a good contributor they can do excellent work
- 06:10:54 [tobie]
- ack foolip
- 06:11:25 [dsinger]
- q?
- 06:11:31 [dsinger]
- q+ to talk about ISO
- 06:11:49 [MikeSmith]
- q+ to comment
- 06:11:52 [foolip]
- foolip: wonder about the W3C funding this, most members aren't super close to this?
- 06:12:03 [foolip]
- fantasai: W3C funding this would make sense, spec are core
- 06:12:11 [foolip]
- fantasai: but financials seem to be a mess
- 06:12:40 [foolip]
- fantasai: staff contacts sometimes haven't been able to attend meetings
- 06:12:55 [foolip]
- fantasai: they might be able to be an intermediary, but not give the money
- 06:13:01 [foolip]
- fantasai: it's the host orgs that have the money
- 06:13:42 [foolip]
- fantasai: hopefully this improves when the W3C becomes a legal entity
- 06:14:07 [foolip]
- MikeSmith: we're not a legal entity, and it is difficult for us to fund things
- 06:14:18 [foolip]
- MikeSmith: we have difficulties getting funds from hosts
- 06:14:30 [foolip]
- MikeSmith: we've had more success brokering funds coming in from members
- 06:14:55 [foolip]
- annevk: you'd think writing specs is high priority
- 06:15:04 [foolip]
- tobie: back to outreacht?
- 06:15:10 [foolip]
- annevk: it was pretty good
- 06:15:20 [jorydotcom]
- q?
- 06:15:29 [jorydotcom]
- ack tobie
- 06:15:39 [foolip]
- tobie: I'd like to avoid having people working on critical open source being super low payed external consultants
- 06:15:46 [foolip]
- tobie: that's not what I'd like to see
- 06:15:55 [MikeSmith]
- ack MikeSmith
- 06:15:55 [Zakim]
- MikeSmith, you wanted to comment
- 06:16:15 [foolip]
- mnot: is any of this written down?
- 06:16:32 [foolip]
- fantasai: people say "I need this tool" they write it and then we depend on it
- 06:16:59 [foolip]
- annevk: when Mozilla funded things our main requirement was that it was open source
- 06:17:34 [foolip]
- q+
- 06:17:50 [tobie]
- ack dsinger
- 06:17:51 [Zakim]
- dsinger, you wanted to talk about ISO
- 06:18:07 [foolip]
- ISO and ITU are both looking to modernize their infrastructure, they have no central anything
- 06:18:13 [foolip]
- that was dsinger
- 06:18:23 [foolip]
- dsinger: they're looking at commercial tools
- 06:18:28 [foolip]
- dsinger: doesn't make sense to me
- 06:18:46 [foolip]
- q?
- 06:18:58 [tobie]
- ack foolip
- 06:20:23 [foolip]
- foolip: not having to write an elaborate contract is helpful for the funders too
- 06:20:46 [foolip]
- foolip: tobie, do you think this proposed model is problematic too in the outsourcing way?
- 06:20:54 [tobie]
- q?
- 06:21:00 [foolip]
- tobie: no, not in the same way [scribe abbreviated[
- 06:21:40 [foolip]
- jgraham: with Outreachy you're not super well paid, but it's not a way for the funder for get work done, it's more like an intern that could grow the communicty
- 06:21:47 [foolip]
- annevk: they're mentor programs
- 06:22:06 [foolip]
- q?
- 06:22:39 [foolip]
- tobie: next steps?
- 06:22:52 [foolip]
- foolip: should we just try the opencollective thing or does anything feel strongly otherwise?
- 06:23:14 [foolip]
- tobie: we can try this quickly, W3C would take a long time, only other option is individual contracting
- 06:23:28 [foolip]
- annevk: mnot raised some good points about this is scoped and managed
- 06:23:49 [jyasskin]
- q+ to say we're out of time
- 06:24:18 [foolip]
- plinss: I like this as an interim step
- 06:24:32 [foolip]
- plinss: only negative thing I see is the fees they charge
- 06:24:38 [foolip]
- tobie: but W3C overhead is huge
- 06:24:55 [foolip]
- fantasai: that might go down when they're a legal entity
- 06:24:59 [jorydotcom]
- q+
- 06:25:00 [foolip]
- q+
- 06:25:01 [foolip]
- q?
- 06:25:05 [foolip]
- ack jyasskin
- 06:25:05 [Zakim]
- jyasskin, you wanted to say we're out of time
- 06:25:15 [foolip]
- ack jorydotcom
- 06:25:29 [foolip]
- jorydotcom: with opencollective you can also have a "hosted" open collective, which is a collection of projects
- 06:25:37 [foolip]
- jorydotcom: that makes it easier to donate a large chunk at one time
- 06:25:59 [foolip]
- jorydotcom: they also make it possible to lower the fees
- 06:26:24 [foolip]
- jorydotcom: more organizational nesting and accounting
- 06:26:31 [foolip]
- RRSAgent: make minutes
- 06:26:31 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-spec-infra-minutes.html foolip
- 06:26:51 [foolip]
- jorydotcom: let's talk to Max
- 06:27:46 [jorydotcom]
- foolip: do or do not, there is no try :D
- 06:28:12 [foolip]
- foolip: I'd be hesitant about adding delay to this, unless it makes others more willing to fund the work
- 06:28:20 [iclelland]
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- 06:28:21 [tobie]
- q?
- 06:28:49 [foolip]
- plinss: I'd be happy to be on the board
- 06:28:54 [plinss]
- https://opencollective.com/specinfra
- 06:29:06 [foolip]
- tobie: let's try and iterate
- 06:29:23 [foolip]
- fantasai: can someone link useful resources to specprod list?
- 06:29:38 [foolip]
- https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/spec-prod/
- 06:29:51 [tobie]
- RRSAgent: make minutes
- 06:29:51 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-spec-infra-minutes.html tobie
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- 21:04:09 [RRSAgent]
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- 21:04:09 [RRSAgent]
- logging to https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-spec-infra-irc
- 21:47:27 [tobie]
- rrsagent, draft minutes
- 21:47:27 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-spec-infra-minutes.html tobie
- 21:48:58 [iclelland]
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- 21:53:49 [tobie]
- ScribeNick: foolip
- 21:58:40 [tobie]
- Meeting: Spec editing infrastructure TPAC breakout session
- 21:58:45 [tobie]
- rrsagent, draft minutes
- 21:58:45 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-spec-infra-minutes.html tobie
- 22:00:26 [tobie]
- Chair: tobie
- 22:00:30 [tobie]
- rrsagent, draft minutes
- 22:00:30 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-spec-infra-minutes.html tobie
- 22:00:58 [tobie]
- present +
- 22:01:01 [tobie]
- rrsagent, draft minutes
- 22:01:01 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-spec-infra-minutes.html tobie
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