IRC log of spec-infra on 2019-09-18

Timestamps are in UTC.

01:48:32 [RRSAgent]
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logging to https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-spec-infra-irc
01:48:34 [wseltzer]
rrsagent, make logs public
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scribenick: cb
05:32:08 [cb]
scribenick cb
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05:32:40 [vivien]
vivien has changed the topic to: Spec editing infrastructure https://w3c.github.io/tpac-breakouts/sessions.html#spec-infra
05:32:48 [cb]
introduction of participants
05:33:15 [tobie]
+present
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05:33:20 [vivien]
+present
05:33:21 [cb]
+present
05:33:29 [TabAtkins]
present+
05:33:40 [rachelandrew_]
present+ Rachel Andrew
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05:35:41 [plinss]
present+ Peter Linss, Invited Expert
05:36:26 [Mek]
present+
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05:36:49 [odejesush]
present+
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05:36:58 [foolip]
present+
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05:37:12 [Lan]
present+
05:37:22 [Kangchan]
present+
05:37:27 [dsinger]
present+ dsinger
05:37:43 [foolip]
RRSAgent: are you logging?
05:37:43 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. Sorry, nothing found for 'are you logging'
05:37:48 [cb]
tobie: I am interested: with the given tooling, what holes are there?
05:37:51 [denis]
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05:37:59 [jyasskin]
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05:38:00 [cb]
tobie: how can these tools be funded
05:38:14 [cb]
tobie: this work should be paid
05:38:30 [cb]
tobie: with more money coming in the more incentive to work in these is
05:38:31 [jyasskin]
q+ to talk about finding all uses
05:38:40 [Zakim]
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05:39:38 [cb]
jyasskin: would love to find all use cases in specs
05:39:54 [iclellan1]
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05:41:53 [duerst]
present+
05:42:06 [iclellan1]
present+
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05:43:42 [cb]
foolip: would be great to get a list of specs we care about
05:44:02 [foolip]
q?
05:44:48 [jyasskin]
s/all use cases in specs/all uses of some definition in all specs/
05:46:00 [foolip]
scribenick foolip
05:46:26 [foolip]
tobie: do we have a good understanding of all the tooling?
05:46:41 [foolip]
tobie: there's Bikeshed and ReSpec (and wattsi...)
05:46:44 [jorydotcom]
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05:46:54 [jorydotcom]
present+
05:47:02 [foolip]
tobie: then there's shepherd for x-refs
05:47:09 [foolip]
tobie: for biblio, that's specref
05:47:22 [foolip]
tobie: we have PR Preview for showing previews on GitHub PRs
05:47:27 [foolip]
tobie: that relies on a bunch of services:
05:47:38 [foolip]
tobie: html-diff maintained by dom
05:47:48 [foolip]
tobie: and the Bikeshed web service
05:47:59 [foolip]
tobie: and the ReSpec spec generator
05:48:09 [foolip]
iclellan1: there's also echidna
05:48:12 [foolip]
foolip: what's that?
05:48:20 [foolip]
TabAtkins: that's autopublifying
05:48:35 [foolip]
denis: there's a system where you send spec for publication
05:48:47 [foolip]
denis: if you pass checks you get published to TR
05:48:54 [plinss]
test.csswg.org/shepherd
05:49:28 [foolip]
MikeSmith: with approval from the WG, it allows you publish living standard at /TR/, wher before it was outdated
05:49:42 [foolip]
MikeSmith: in other words /TR/ becomes editor's draft
05:50:05 [yoshiaki]
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05:50:05 [foolip]
MikeSmith: we should quit publishing old stuff to TR
05:50:22 [foolip]
foolip: I distrust TR 100% of the time. How common is this?
05:51:01 [foolip]
MikeSmith: it's better than before, but you should use ED for the very latest
05:51:15 [foolip]
vivien: in the WebRTC all specs use echidna
05:51:32 [MikeSmith]
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05:51:47 [foolip]
vivien: you can integrate this with your GitHub workflow
05:51:51 [astearns]
You can reduce the 100% somewhat now due to echidna
05:51:56 [foolip]
annevk: this is like the W3C's build.sh
05:52:09 [jyasskin]
q+
05:52:30 [foolip]
plinss: CSSWG also has a tool that regenerates spec
05:52:33 [foolip]
ack jyasskin
05:52:49 [foolip]
the last time I tried to use Echidna I had to do some curl command, a GitHub App would be helpful
05:52:59 [vivien]
+1
05:53:05 [foolip]
tobie: I think we've listed all the tools now
05:53:08 [foolip]
tobie: do we have gaps?
05:53:19 [dsinger]
q+
05:53:22 [foolip]
tobie: what's missing?
05:53:26 [foolip]
TabAtkins: the spec list obviously
05:53:45 [foolip]
tobie: another thing is a way for spec editors to know where to add specs
05:53:46 [foolip]
q?
05:53:51 [TabAtkins]
q+
05:53:52 [foolip]
ack dsinger
05:54:02 [foolip]
dsinger: my dream is that we manage the past and future better
05:54:26 [foolip]
dsinger: in other words, would love a tool where the spec says "there are issues filed against this spec" or "there are provisional updates to this section"
05:54:36 [vivien]
q+ use of tr.rdf (legacy) / W3C API ?
05:54:46 [vivien]
q+ to ask about use of tr.rdf (legacy) / W3C API ?
05:54:47 [MikeSmith]
q+ to mention mdn annoys
05:54:49 [foolip]
TabAtkins: can you file an issue at https://github.com/tabatkins/bikeshed?
05:54:55 [wonsuk___]
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05:55:01 [foolip]
q?
05:55:16 [foolip]
ack TabAtkins
05:55:48 [foolip]
TabAtkins: there's a ReSpec session at 4 that an intern/coworker did to expose shepherd's link database
05:56:01 [foolip]
TabAtkins: it's only giving you ReSpec syntax now, but could do Bikehsed
05:56:20 [foolip]
TabAtkins: look up `bikeshed refs -h` for a local tool
05:56:20 [jyasskin]
q+ to talk about documentation
05:56:28 [tobie]
ack vivien
05:56:29 [Zakim]
vivien, you wanted to ask about use of tr.rdf (legacy) / W3C API ?
05:56:30 [foolip]
ack vivien
05:56:44 [foolip]
vivien: don't know if people depend on tr.rdf?
05:56:50 [foolip]
tobie: I use it (specref)
05:57:04 [foolip]
vivien: there's a new API (JSON) that replaces this
05:57:22 [yoshiaki]
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05:57:24 [vivien]
s/use it/use tr.rdf/
05:57:24 [foolip]
tobie: I use RDF, JSON didn't exist when I wrote the tool
05:57:44 [foolip]
tobie: does anyone else depend on this?
05:57:49 [foolip]
foolip: I depend on it via specref
05:57:55 [tobie]
ack MikeSmith
05:57:55 [Zakim]
MikeSmith, you wanted to mention mdn annoys
05:58:04 [foolip]
MikeSmith: MDN annotations
05:58:21 [foolip]
MikeSmith: I build a thing for HTML which adds annotations in the margin where you define an interface / method
05:58:32 [jyasskin]
s/build/built/
05:58:39 [foolip]
MikeSmith: It also pulls in data from https://github.com/mdn/browser-compat-data
05:58:42 [tobie]
q?
05:58:49 [foolip]
MikeSmith: that's browser support data
05:59:00 [foolip]
MikeSmith: in the HTML spec, you can see link to both MDN and the compat data
05:59:13 [foolip]
MikeSmith: Marcos had a contributor add it to ReSpec
05:59:28 [foolip]
MikeSmith: for ReSpec, it automatically generates those annotations
05:59:44 [foolip]
MikeSmith: want to do this for Bikeshed too, not a huge effort, but need a contributor
05:59:59 [foolip]
MikeSmith: so that using Bikeshed you get the same linking
06:00:14 [yoshiaki]
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06:00:25 [foolip]
MikeSmith: maybe unique for the HTML spec, but we need to determine which features only have 1 or no implementation, for process resasons
06:00:40 [foolip]
MikeSmith: having a way to do that for other specs would be nice, automating that would be great
06:01:23 [foolip]
jyasskin: "Bikeshed can do that" has been said, and experts don't know yet
06:01:35 [foolip]
[all] documentation needed
06:01:50 [foolip]
jorydotcom: Bocoup's working on a guide for contributing to the web platform
06:02:01 [tobie]
ack jyasskin
06:02:02 [Zakim]
jyasskin, you wanted to talk about documentation
06:02:05 [foolip]
TabAtkins: who did the MDN annotations for wattsi?
06:02:10 [foolip]
MikeSmith: me
06:02:28 [foolip]
TabAtkins: let's talk about how you get the compat data
06:02:34 [foolip]
tobie: funding aspect
06:02:56 [foolip]
tobie: It would be interesting to find a way for folks working at companies to fund this work
06:03:05 [foolip]
tobie: Would like to set up an opencollective fund
06:03:14 [jyasskin]
https://opencollective.com/
06:03:28 [foolip]
tobie: they're a startup for funding open source project, they're a legal entity that can take money and distrubute it
06:03:44 [foolip]
tobie: know that the AMP team funds some projects that it relies on using opencollective
06:03:46 [foolip]
q+
06:03:47 [foolip]
q?
06:04:23 [foolip]
tobie: would also be great with some way to monitor services, finding what needs help
06:04:44 [foolip]
tobie: cost of hosting is low, and companies have payed for that, but someone needs a credit card
06:04:51 [foolip]
tobie: AWS bill might blow up
06:04:58 [foolip]
tobie: would like to see a more sane situation for this
06:05:08 [foolip]
tobie: also to fund more people
06:05:16 [MikeSmith]
q+ to ask about Outreachy and mention GSOC experiences
06:05:34 [tobie]
ack foolip
06:06:33 [foolip]
foolip: I have requested budget for this, think it would be great if others would do the same
06:06:48 [foolip]
tobie: the structure is tied to my LLC
06:07:04 [foolip]
tobie: for others to be able to do work, we'd need a bigger fund
06:07:22 [foolip]
annevk: how does distribution work?
06:07:34 [foolip]
tobie: would probably imply creating some sort of board
06:07:45 [yoshiaki]
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06:07:58 [tobie]
q?
06:08:01 [foolip]
annevk: would it be easier to make it part of the W3C?
06:08:05 [foolip]
q+
06:08:14 [jyasskin]
ack MikeSmith
06:08:14 [Zakim]
MikeSmith, you wanted to ask about Outreachy and mention GSOC experiences
06:08:41 [foolip]
MikeSmith: want to mention for history: I've tried in the past GSOC (Google Summer of Code)
06:08:56 [foolip]
MikeSmith: proposals were rejected
06:09:17 [foolip]
MikeSmith: that way of getting contributors didn't...
06:09:26 [foolip]
MikeSmith: I know annevk has done work with Outreachy
06:09:33 [foolip]
https://www.outreachy.org/
06:09:44 [foolip]
MikeSmith: that's been more successful I think
06:10:13 [foolip]
jgraham: I've used Outreachy for other test infrastructure stuff, think it's a good problem that I'd recommend
06:10:38 [foolip]
jgraham: there are some practical things. you get a lot of upfront work, and you probably don't have 40 trivial bugs to work on
06:10:47 [tobie]
q+
06:10:49 [foolip]
jgraham: but if you get a good contributor they can do excellent work
06:10:54 [tobie]
ack foolip
06:11:25 [dsinger]
q?
06:11:31 [dsinger]
q+ to talk about ISO
06:11:49 [MikeSmith]
q+ to comment
06:11:52 [foolip]
foolip: wonder about the W3C funding this, most members aren't super close to this?
06:12:03 [foolip]
fantasai: W3C funding this would make sense, spec are core
06:12:11 [foolip]
fantasai: but financials seem to be a mess
06:12:40 [foolip]
fantasai: staff contacts sometimes haven't been able to attend meetings
06:12:55 [foolip]
fantasai: they might be able to be an intermediary, but not give the money
06:13:01 [foolip]
fantasai: it's the host orgs that have the money
06:13:42 [foolip]
fantasai: hopefully this improves when the W3C becomes a legal entity
06:14:07 [foolip]
MikeSmith: we're not a legal entity, and it is difficult for us to fund things
06:14:18 [foolip]
MikeSmith: we have difficulties getting funds from hosts
06:14:30 [foolip]
MikeSmith: we've had more success brokering funds coming in from members
06:14:55 [foolip]
annevk: you'd think writing specs is high priority
06:15:04 [foolip]
tobie: back to outreacht?
06:15:10 [foolip]
annevk: it was pretty good
06:15:20 [jorydotcom]
q?
06:15:29 [jorydotcom]
ack tobie
06:15:39 [foolip]
tobie: I'd like to avoid having people working on critical open source being super low payed external consultants
06:15:46 [foolip]
tobie: that's not what I'd like to see
06:15:55 [MikeSmith]
ack MikeSmith
06:15:55 [Zakim]
MikeSmith, you wanted to comment
06:16:15 [foolip]
mnot: is any of this written down?
06:16:32 [foolip]
fantasai: people say "I need this tool" they write it and then we depend on it
06:16:59 [foolip]
annevk: when Mozilla funded things our main requirement was that it was open source
06:17:34 [foolip]
q+
06:17:50 [tobie]
ack dsinger
06:17:51 [Zakim]
dsinger, you wanted to talk about ISO
06:18:07 [foolip]
ISO and ITU are both looking to modernize their infrastructure, they have no central anything
06:18:13 [foolip]
that was dsinger
06:18:23 [foolip]
dsinger: they're looking at commercial tools
06:18:28 [foolip]
dsinger: doesn't make sense to me
06:18:46 [foolip]
q?
06:18:58 [tobie]
ack foolip
06:20:23 [foolip]
foolip: not having to write an elaborate contract is helpful for the funders too
06:20:46 [foolip]
foolip: tobie, do you think this proposed model is problematic too in the outsourcing way?
06:20:54 [tobie]
q?
06:21:00 [foolip]
tobie: no, not in the same way [scribe abbreviated[
06:21:40 [foolip]
jgraham: with Outreachy you're not super well paid, but it's not a way for the funder for get work done, it's more like an intern that could grow the communicty
06:21:47 [foolip]
annevk: they're mentor programs
06:22:06 [foolip]
q?
06:22:39 [foolip]
tobie: next steps?
06:22:52 [foolip]
foolip: should we just try the opencollective thing or does anything feel strongly otherwise?
06:23:14 [foolip]
tobie: we can try this quickly, W3C would take a long time, only other option is individual contracting
06:23:28 [foolip]
annevk: mnot raised some good points about this is scoped and managed
06:23:49 [jyasskin]
q+ to say we're out of time
06:24:18 [foolip]
plinss: I like this as an interim step
06:24:32 [foolip]
plinss: only negative thing I see is the fees they charge
06:24:38 [foolip]
tobie: but W3C overhead is huge
06:24:55 [foolip]
fantasai: that might go down when they're a legal entity
06:24:59 [jorydotcom]
q+
06:25:00 [foolip]
q+
06:25:01 [foolip]
q?
06:25:05 [foolip]
ack jyasskin
06:25:05 [Zakim]
jyasskin, you wanted to say we're out of time
06:25:15 [foolip]
ack jorydotcom
06:25:29 [foolip]
jorydotcom: with opencollective you can also have a "hosted" open collective, which is a collection of projects
06:25:37 [foolip]
jorydotcom: that makes it easier to donate a large chunk at one time
06:25:59 [foolip]
jorydotcom: they also make it possible to lower the fees
06:26:24 [foolip]
jorydotcom: more organizational nesting and accounting
06:26:31 [foolip]
RRSAgent: make minutes
06:26:31 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-spec-infra-minutes.html foolip
06:26:51 [foolip]
jorydotcom: let's talk to Max
06:27:46 [jorydotcom]
foolip: do or do not, there is no try :D
06:28:12 [foolip]
foolip: I'd be hesitant about adding delay to this, unless it makes others more willing to fund the work
06:28:20 [iclelland]
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06:28:21 [tobie]
q?
06:28:49 [foolip]
plinss: I'd be happy to be on the board
06:28:54 [plinss]
https://opencollective.com/specinfra
06:29:06 [foolip]
tobie: let's try and iterate
06:29:23 [foolip]
fantasai: can someone link useful resources to specprod list?
06:29:38 [foolip]
https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/spec-prod/
06:29:51 [tobie]
RRSAgent: make minutes
06:29:51 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-spec-infra-minutes.html tobie
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21:04:09 [RRSAgent]
logging to https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-spec-infra-irc
21:47:27 [tobie]
rrsagent, draft minutes
21:47:27 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-spec-infra-minutes.html tobie
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21:53:49 [tobie]
ScribeNick: foolip
21:58:40 [tobie]
Meeting: Spec editing infrastructure TPAC breakout session
21:58:45 [tobie]
rrsagent, draft minutes
21:58:45 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-spec-infra-minutes.html tobie
22:00:26 [tobie]
Chair: tobie
22:00:30 [tobie]
rrsagent, draft minutes
22:00:30 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-spec-infra-minutes.html tobie
22:00:58 [tobie]
present +
22:01:01 [tobie]
rrsagent, draft minutes
22:01:01 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-spec-infra-minutes.html tobie
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