01:48:32 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #spec-infra
01:48:32 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-spec-infra-irc
01:48:34 <wseltzer> rrsagent, make logs public
01:59:12 <denis> denis has joined #spec-infra
02:02:00 <yoshiaki> yoshiaki has joined #spec-infra
02:34:01 <yoshiaki_> yoshiaki_ has joined #spec-infra
02:45:07 <yoshiaki> yoshiaki has joined #spec-infra
02:51:02 <yoshiaki_> yoshiaki_ has joined #spec-infra
02:52:03 <yoshiaki> yoshiaki has joined #spec-infra
03:10:43 <denis> denis has joined #spec-infra
03:57:23 <denis> denis has joined #spec-infra
03:59:58 <yoshiaki> yoshiaki has joined #spec-infra
04:30:30 <yoshiaki> yoshiaki has joined #spec-infra
04:31:40 <yoshiaki> yoshiaki has joined #spec-infra
04:40:29 <denis> denis has joined #spec-infra
05:17:37 <yoshiaki> yoshiaki has joined #spec-infra
05:28:41 <yoshiaki> yoshiaki has joined #spec-infra
05:28:59 <tobie> tobie has joined #spec-infra
05:29:14 <plinss> plinss has joined #spec-infra
05:29:29 <astearns> astearns has joined #spec-infra
05:30:57 <Mek> Mek has joined #spec-infra
05:31:14 <cb> cb has joined #spec-infra
05:31:14 <rachelandrew_> rachelandrew_ has joined #spec-infra
05:31:19 <kevers> kevers has joined #spec-infra
05:31:56 <cb> scribenick: cb
05:32:08 <cb> scribenick cb
05:32:15 <vivien> vivien has joined #spec-infra
05:32:40 <vivien> vivien has changed the topic to: Spec editing infrastructure https://w3c.github.io/tpac-breakouts/sessions.html#spec-infra
05:32:48 <cb> introduction of participants
05:33:15 <tobie> +present
05:33:18 <TabAtkins> TabAtkins has joined #spec-infra
05:33:20 <vivien> +present
05:33:21 <cb> +present
05:33:29 <TabAtkins> present+
05:33:40 <rachelandrew_> present+ Rachel Andrew
05:33:43 <joemedley> joemedley has joined #spec-infra
05:34:05 <Kangchan> Kangchan has joined #spec-infra
05:34:20 <yoshiaki_> yoshiaki_ has joined #spec-infra
05:34:59 <yoshiaki_> yoshiaki_ has joined #spec-infra
05:35:32 <odejesush> odejesush has joined #spec-infra
05:35:41 <plinss> present+ Peter Linss, Invited Expert
05:36:26 <Mek> present+
05:36:36 <Lan> Lan has joined #spec-infra
05:36:49 <odejesush> present+
05:36:53 <foolip> foolip has joined #spec-infra
05:36:58 <foolip> present+
05:37:07 <dsinger> dsinger has joined #spec-infra
05:37:12 <Lan> present+
05:37:22 <Kangchan> present+
05:37:27 <dsinger> present+ dsinger
05:37:43 <foolip> RRSAgent: are you logging?
05:37:43 <RRSAgent> I'm logging.  Sorry, nothing found for 'are you logging'
05:37:48 <cb> tobie: I am interested: with the given tooling, what holes are there?
05:37:51 <denis> denis has joined #spec-infra
05:37:59 <jyasskin> jyasskin has joined #spec-infra
05:38:00 <cb> tobie: how can these tools be funded
05:38:14 <cb> tobie: this work should be paid
05:38:30 <cb> tobie: with more money coming in the more incentive to work in these is
05:38:31 <jyasskin> q+ to talk about finding all uses
05:38:40 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #spec-infra
05:39:38 <cb> jyasskin: would love to find all use cases in specs
05:39:54 <iclellan1> iclellan1 has joined #spec-infra
05:40:25 <hiroshige> hiroshige has joined #spec-infra
05:41:12 <yoshiaki> yoshiaki has joined #spec-infra
05:41:22 <duerst> duerst has joined #spec-infra
05:41:53 <duerst> present+
05:42:06 <iclellan1> present+
05:43:28 <yoshiaki_> yoshiaki_ has joined #spec-infra
05:43:42 <cb> foolip: would be great to get a list of specs we care about
05:44:02 <foolip> q?
05:44:48 <jyasskin> s/all use cases in specs/all uses of some definition in all specs/
05:46:00 <foolip> scribenick foolip
05:46:26 <foolip> tobie: do we have a good understanding of all the tooling?
05:46:41 <foolip> tobie: there's Bikeshed and ReSpec (and wattsi...)
05:46:44 <jorydotcom> jorydotcom has joined #spec-infra
05:46:54 <jorydotcom> present+
05:47:02 <foolip> tobie: then there's shepherd for x-refs
05:47:09 <foolip> tobie: for biblio, that's specref
05:47:22 <foolip> tobie: we have PR Preview for showing previews on GitHub PRs
05:47:27 <foolip> tobie: that relies on a bunch of services:
05:47:38 <foolip> tobie: html-diff maintained by dom
05:47:48 <foolip> tobie: and the Bikeshed web service
05:47:59 <foolip> tobie: and the ReSpec spec generator
05:48:09 <foolip> iclellan1: there's also echidna
05:48:12 <foolip> foolip: what's that?
05:48:20 <foolip> TabAtkins: that's autopublifying
05:48:35 <foolip> denis: there's a system where you send spec for publication
05:48:47 <foolip> denis: if you pass checks you get published to TR
05:48:54 <plinss> test.csswg.org/shepherd
05:49:28 <foolip> MikeSmith: with approval from the WG, it allows you publish living standard at /TR/, wher before it was outdated
05:49:42 <foolip> MikeSmith: in other words /TR/ becomes editor's draft
05:50:05 <yoshiaki> yoshiaki has joined #spec-infra
05:50:05 <foolip> MikeSmith: we should quit publishing old stuff to TR
05:50:22 <foolip> foolip: I distrust TR 100% of the time. How common is this?
05:51:01 <foolip> MikeSmith: it's better than before, but you should use ED for the very latest
05:51:15 <foolip> vivien: in the WebRTC all specs use echidna
05:51:32 <MikeSmith> MikeSmith has joined #spec-infra
05:51:47 <foolip> vivien: you can integrate this with your GitHub workflow
05:51:51 <astearns> You can reduce the 100% somewhat now due to echidna
05:51:56 <foolip> annevk: this is like the W3C's build.sh
05:52:09 <jyasskin> q+
05:52:30 <foolip> plinss: CSSWG also has a tool that regenerates spec
05:52:33 <foolip> ack jyasskin
05:52:49 <foolip> the last time I tried to use Echidna I had to do some curl command, a GitHub App would be helpful
05:52:59 <vivien> +1
05:53:05 <foolip> tobie: I think we've listed all the tools now
05:53:08 <foolip> tobie: do we have gaps?
05:53:19 <dsinger> q+
05:53:22 <foolip> tobie: what's missing?
05:53:26 <foolip> TabAtkins: the spec list obviously
05:53:45 <foolip> tobie: another thing is a way for spec editors to know where to add specs
05:53:46 <foolip> q?
05:53:51 <TabAtkins> q+
05:53:52 <foolip> ack dsinger
05:54:02 <foolip> dsinger: my dream is that we manage the past and future better
05:54:26 <foolip> dsinger: in other words, would love a tool where the spec says "there are issues filed against this spec" or "there are provisional updates to this section"
05:54:36 <vivien> q+ use of tr.rdf (legacy) / W3C API ?
05:54:46 <vivien> q+ to ask about use of tr.rdf (legacy) / W3C API ?
05:54:47 <MikeSmith> q+ to mention mdn annoys
05:54:49 <foolip> TabAtkins: can you file an issue at https://github.com/tabatkins/bikeshed?
05:54:55 <wonsuk___> wonsuk___ has joined #spec-infra
05:55:01 <foolip> q?
05:55:16 <foolip> ack TabAtkins
05:55:48 <foolip> TabAtkins: there's a ReSpec session at 4 that an intern/coworker did to expose shepherd's link database
05:56:01 <foolip> TabAtkins: it's only giving you ReSpec syntax now, but could do Bikehsed
05:56:20 <foolip> TabAtkins: look up `bikeshed refs -h` for a local tool
05:56:20 <jyasskin> q+ to talk about documentation
05:56:28 <tobie> ack vivien
05:56:29 <Zakim> vivien, you wanted to ask about use of tr.rdf (legacy) / W3C API ?
05:56:30 <foolip> ack vivien
05:56:44 <foolip> vivien: don't know if people depend on tr.rdf?
05:56:50 <foolip> tobie: I use it (specref)
05:57:04 <foolip> vivien: there's a new API (JSON) that replaces this
05:57:22 <yoshiaki> yoshiaki has joined #spec-infra
05:57:24 <vivien> s/use it/use tr.rdf/
05:57:24 <foolip> tobie: I use RDF, JSON didn't exist when I wrote the tool
05:57:44 <foolip> tobie: does anyone else depend on this?
05:57:49 <foolip> foolip: I depend on it via specref
05:57:55 <tobie> ack MikeSmith
05:57:55 <Zakim> MikeSmith, you wanted to mention mdn annoys
05:58:04 <foolip> MikeSmith: MDN annotations
05:58:21 <foolip> MikeSmith: I build a thing for HTML which adds annotations in the margin where you define an interface / method
05:58:32 <jyasskin> s/build/built/
05:58:39 <foolip> MikeSmith: It also pulls in data from https://github.com/mdn/browser-compat-data
05:58:42 <tobie> q?
05:58:49 <foolip> MikeSmith: that's browser support data
05:59:00 <foolip> MikeSmith: in the HTML spec, you can see link to both MDN and the compat data
05:59:13 <foolip> MikeSmith: Marcos had a contributor add it to ReSpec
05:59:28 <foolip> MikeSmith: for ReSpec, it automatically generates those annotations
05:59:44 <foolip> MikeSmith: want to do this for Bikeshed too, not a huge effort, but need a contributor
05:59:59 <foolip> MikeSmith: so that using Bikeshed you get the same linking
06:00:14 <yoshiaki> yoshiaki has joined #spec-infra
06:00:25 <foolip> MikeSmith: maybe unique for the HTML spec, but we need to determine which features only have 1 or no implementation, for process resasons
06:00:40 <foolip> MikeSmith: having a way to do that for other specs would be nice, automating that would be great
06:01:23 <foolip> jyasskin: "Bikeshed can do that" has been said, and experts don't know yet
06:01:35 <foolip> [all] documentation needed
06:01:50 <foolip> jorydotcom: Bocoup's working on a guide for contributing to the web platform
06:02:01 <tobie> ack jyasskin
06:02:02 <Zakim> jyasskin, you wanted to talk about documentation
06:02:05 <foolip> TabAtkins: who did the MDN annotations for wattsi?
06:02:10 <foolip> MikeSmith: me
06:02:28 <foolip> TabAtkins: let's talk about how you get the compat data
06:02:34 <foolip> tobie: funding aspect
06:02:56 <foolip> tobie: It would be interesting to find a way for folks working at companies to fund this work
06:03:05 <foolip> tobie: Would like to set up an opencollective fund
06:03:14 <jyasskin> https://opencollective.com/
06:03:28 <foolip> tobie: they're a startup for funding open source project, they're a legal entity that can take money and distrubute it
06:03:44 <foolip> tobie: know that the AMP team funds some projects that it relies on using opencollective
06:03:46 <foolip> q+
06:03:47 <foolip> q?
06:04:23 <foolip> tobie: would also be great with some way to monitor services, finding what needs help
06:04:44 <foolip> tobie: cost of hosting is low, and companies have payed for that, but someone needs a credit card
06:04:51 <foolip> tobie: AWS bill might blow up
06:04:58 <foolip> tobie: would like to see a more sane situation for this
06:05:08 <foolip> tobie: also to fund more people
06:05:16 <MikeSmith> q+ to ask about Outreachy and mention GSOC experiences
06:05:34 <tobie> ack foolip
06:06:33 <foolip> foolip: I have requested budget for this, think it would be great if others would do the same
06:06:48 <foolip> tobie: the structure is tied to my LLC
06:07:04 <foolip> tobie: for others to be able to do work, we'd need a bigger fund
06:07:22 <foolip> annevk: how does distribution work?
06:07:34 <foolip> tobie: would probably imply creating some sort of board
06:07:45 <yoshiaki> yoshiaki has joined #spec-infra
06:07:58 <tobie> q?
06:08:01 <foolip> annevk: would it be easier to make it part of the W3C?
06:08:05 <foolip> q+
06:08:14 <jyasskin> ack MikeSmith
06:08:14 <Zakim> MikeSmith, you wanted to ask about Outreachy and mention GSOC experiences
06:08:41 <foolip> MikeSmith: want to mention for history: I've tried in the past GSOC (Google Summer of Code)
06:08:56 <foolip> MikeSmith: proposals were rejected
06:09:17 <foolip> MikeSmith: that way of getting contributors didn't...
06:09:26 <foolip> MikeSmith: I know annevk has done work with Outreachy
06:09:33 <foolip> https://www.outreachy.org/
06:09:44 <foolip> MikeSmith: that's been more successful I think
06:10:13 <foolip> jgraham: I've used Outreachy for other test infrastructure stuff, think it's a good problem that I'd recommend
06:10:38 <foolip> jgraham: there are some practical things. you get a lot of upfront work, and you probably don't have 40 trivial bugs to work on
06:10:47 <tobie> q+
06:10:49 <foolip> jgraham: but if you get a good contributor they can do excellent work
06:10:54 <tobie> ack foolip
06:11:25 <dsinger> q?
06:11:31 <dsinger> q+ to talk about ISO
06:11:49 <MikeSmith> q+ to comment
06:11:52 <foolip> foolip: wonder about the W3C funding this, most members aren't super close to this?
06:12:03 <foolip> fantasai: W3C funding this would make sense, spec are core
06:12:11 <foolip> fantasai: but financials seem to be a mess
06:12:40 <foolip> fantasai:  staff contacts sometimes haven't been able to attend meetings
06:12:55 <foolip> fantasai: they might be able to be an intermediary, but not give the money
06:13:01 <foolip> fantasai: it's the host orgs that have the money
06:13:42 <foolip> fantasai: hopefully this improves when the W3C becomes a legal entity
06:14:07 <foolip> MikeSmith: we're not a legal entity, and it is difficult for us to fund things
06:14:18 <foolip> MikeSmith: we have difficulties getting funds from hosts
06:14:30 <foolip> MikeSmith: we've had more success brokering funds coming in from members
06:14:55 <foolip> annevk: you'd think writing specs is high priority
06:15:04 <foolip> tobie: back to outreacht?
06:15:10 <foolip> annevk: it was pretty good
06:15:20 <jorydotcom> q?
06:15:29 <jorydotcom> ack tobie
06:15:39 <foolip> tobie: I'd like to avoid having people working on critical open source being super low payed external consultants
06:15:46 <foolip> tobie: that's not what I'd like to see
06:15:55 <MikeSmith> ack MikeSmith
06:15:55 <Zakim> MikeSmith, you wanted to comment
06:16:15 <foolip> mnot: is any of this written down?
06:16:32 <foolip> fantasai: people say "I need this tool" they write it and then we depend on it
06:16:59 <foolip> annevk: when Mozilla funded things our main requirement was that it was open source
06:17:34 <foolip> q+
06:17:50 <tobie> ack dsinger
06:17:51 <Zakim> dsinger, you wanted to talk about ISO
06:18:07 <foolip> ISO and ITU are both looking to modernize their infrastructure, they have no central anything
06:18:13 <foolip> that was dsinger
06:18:23 <foolip> dsinger: they're looking at commercial tools
06:18:28 <foolip> dsinger: doesn't make sense to me
06:18:46 <foolip> q?
06:18:58 <tobie> ack foolip
06:20:23 <foolip> foolip: not having to write an elaborate contract is helpful for the funders too
06:20:46 <foolip> foolip: tobie, do you think this proposed model is problematic too in the outsourcing way?
06:20:54 <tobie> q?
06:21:00 <foolip> tobie: no, not in the same way [scribe abbreviated[
06:21:40 <foolip> jgraham: with Outreachy you're not super well paid, but it's not a way for the funder for get work done, it's more like an intern that could grow the communicty
06:21:47 <foolip> annevk: they're mentor programs
06:22:06 <foolip> q?
06:22:39 <foolip> tobie: next steps?
06:22:52 <foolip> foolip: should we just try the opencollective thing or does anything feel strongly otherwise?
06:23:14 <foolip> tobie: we can try this quickly, W3C would take a long time, only other option is individual contracting
06:23:28 <foolip> annevk: mnot raised some good points about this is scoped and managed
06:23:49 <jyasskin> q+ to say we're out of time
06:24:18 <foolip> plinss: I like this as an interim step
06:24:32 <foolip> plinss: only negative thing I see is the fees they charge
06:24:38 <foolip> tobie: but W3C overhead is huge
06:24:55 <foolip> fantasai: that might go down when they're a legal entity
06:24:59 <jorydotcom> q+
06:25:00 <foolip> q+
06:25:01 <foolip> q?
06:25:05 <foolip> ack jyasskin
06:25:05 <Zakim> jyasskin, you wanted to say we're out of time
06:25:15 <foolip> ack jorydotcom
06:25:29 <foolip> jorydotcom: with opencollective you can also have a "hosted" open collective, which is a collection of projects
06:25:37 <foolip> jorydotcom: that makes it easier to donate a large chunk at one time
06:25:59 <foolip> jorydotcom: they also make it possible to lower the fees
06:26:24 <foolip> jorydotcom: more organizational nesting and accounting
06:26:31 <foolip> RRSAgent: make minutes
06:26:31 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-spec-infra-minutes.html foolip
06:26:51 <foolip> jorydotcom: let's talk to Max
06:27:46 <jorydotcom> foolip: do or do not, there is no try :D
06:28:12 <foolip> foolip: I'd be hesitant about adding delay to this, unless it makes others more willing to fund the work
06:28:20 <iclelland> iclelland has joined #spec-infra
06:28:21 <tobie> q?
06:28:49 <foolip> plinss: I'd be happy to be on the board
06:28:54 <plinss> https://opencollective.com/specinfra
06:29:06 <foolip> tobie: let's try and iterate
06:29:23 <foolip> fantasai: can someone link useful resources to specprod list?
06:29:38 <foolip> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/spec-prod/
06:29:51 <tobie> RRSAgent: make minutes
06:29:51 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-spec-infra-minutes.html tobie
06:32:07 <yoshiaki> yoshiaki has joined #spec-infra
06:59:01 <denis> denis has joined #spec-infra
07:15:22 <dsinger> dsinger has joined #spec-infra
07:21:59 <dsinger> dsinger has joined #spec-infra
07:31:35 <yoshiaki> yoshiaki has joined #spec-infra
07:53:34 <jorydotcom> jorydotcom has joined #spec-infra
07:54:05 <MikeSmith> MikeSmith has left #spec-infra
08:00:08 <iclelland> iclelland has joined #spec-infra
08:00:17 <jorydotc_> jorydotc_ has joined #spec-infra
08:14:48 <TabAtkins> TabAtkins has left #spec-infra
08:21:05 <iclelland> iclelland has joined #spec-infra
08:23:38 <Lan_> Lan_ has joined #spec-infra
08:27:28 <yoshiaki> yoshiaki has joined #spec-infra
08:28:11 <yoshiaki> yoshiaki has joined #spec-infra
08:32:03 <dsinger> dsinger has joined #spec-infra
08:33:12 <iclelland> iclelland has joined #spec-infra
08:33:39 <yoshiaki_> yoshiaki_ has joined #spec-infra
08:37:34 <jorydotcom> jorydotcom has joined #spec-infra
08:57:26 <Zakim> Zakim has left #spec-infra
09:31:27 <iclelland> iclelland has joined #spec-infra
09:34:48 <yoshiaki> yoshiaki has joined #spec-infra
09:38:54 <yoshiaki_> yoshiaki_ has joined #spec-infra
21:04:09 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #spec-infra
21:04:09 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-spec-infra-irc
21:47:27 <tobie> rrsagent, draft minutes
21:47:27 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-spec-infra-minutes.html tobie
21:48:58 <iclelland> iclelland has joined #spec-infra
21:53:49 <tobie> ScribeNick: foolip
21:58:40 <tobie> Meeting:  Spec editing infrastructure TPAC breakout session
21:58:45 <tobie> rrsagent, draft minutes
21:58:45 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-spec-infra-minutes.html tobie
22:00:26 <tobie> Chair: tobie
22:00:30 <tobie> rrsagent, draft minutes
22:00:30 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-spec-infra-minutes.html tobie
22:00:58 <tobie> present +
22:01:01 <tobie> rrsagent, draft minutes
22:01:01 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-spec-infra-minutes.html tobie
22:22:09 <iclelland> iclelland has joined #spec-infra
22:44:02 <iclelland> iclelland has joined #spec-infra
23:24:28 <iclelland> iclelland has joined #spec-infra
23:35:52 <dsinger> dsinger has joined #spec-infra
23:36:40 <iclelland> iclelland has joined #spec-infra
23:39:24 <iclelland> iclelland has joined #spec-infra
23:42:21 <dsinger> dsinger has joined #spec-infra
23:45:15 <iclelland> iclelland has joined #spec-infra
23:48:20 <yoshiaki> yoshiaki has joined #spec-infra
23:49:35 <dsinger> dsinger has joined #spec-infra
23:50:27 <dsinger> dsinger has left #spec-infra