01:46:51 RRSAgent has joined #registries 01:46:51 logging to https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-registries-irc 01:46:56 RRSAgent, make logs public 01:46:58 koalie has changed the topic to: https://w3c.github.io/tpac-breakouts/sessions.html 01:47:08 koalie has left #registries 02:05:35 dsinger has joined #registries 03:35:12 dsinger has joined #registries 04:21:16 dsinger has joined #registries 04:22:10 tantek has joined #registries 04:22:50 RRSAgent, make logs public 04:30:19 dsinger has joined #registries 05:33:59 dsinger has joined #registries 05:36:22 tantek has joined #registries 05:39:04 RRSAgent, pointer? 05:39:04 See https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-registries-irc#T05-39-04 07:15:19 dsinger has joined #registries 07:21:49 dsinger has joined #registries 07:34:24 nigel has joined #registries 07:35:44 tantek has joined #registries 08:00:07 nigel_ has joined #registries 08:31:21 romain has joined #registries 08:32:02 dsinger has joined #registries 08:32:45 present+ dsinger 08:33:41 kaz has joined #registries 08:33:47 Zakim has joined #registries 08:33:47 iclelland has joined #registries 08:33:50 present+ 08:33:55 present+ 08:34:28 JoeAndrieu has joined #registries 08:34:39 present+ 08:34:58 manu has joined #registries 08:34:59 https://www.w3.org/2019/Talks/TPAC/ac-registries/Overview.html#start 08:35:01 nigel_ has joined #registries 08:35:16 rrsagent, draft minutes 08:35:16 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-registries-minutes.html manu 08:35:30 Travis has joined #registries 08:35:30 yoshiroy has joined #registries 08:35:31 fantasai has joined #registries 08:35:35 present+ Kaz_Ashimura 08:35:46 nigel has joined #registries 08:35:47 present+ 08:35:53 rrsagent, make logs public 08:35:56 Scribe: Travis 08:36:04 Meeting: Registries Breakout 08:36:07 present+ 08:36:10 rrsagent, draft minutes 08:36:10 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-registries-minutes.html manu 08:36:21 present+ Nigel_Megitt 08:36:23 Chair: David_Singer 08:36:30 present+ Yoshiro_Yoneya 08:38:17 (dsinger presents slides on Registries) link? 08:39:30 hmm I wouldn't expect this to fly because the reason we have so many ways of doing registries is to get rid of all this process / bureaucracy 08:39:43 q+ to ask if informative text is allowed - isn't a registry simply a document? 08:39:50 TBH this is even more onerous than IANA policies 08:39:58 URL to slides: https://www.w3.org/2019/Talks/TPAC/ac-registries/ 08:40:12 azaroth has joined #registries 08:40:22 present+ Rob_Sanderson 08:41:41 dsinger: so which things can you publish together. 08:42:01 .. registry definitions, referencing documents, rules, etc... 08:42:41 "W3C Registry" as a new kind of publication 08:42:50 oh dear 08:43:29 tantek, not sure why you think it's more onerous than IANA; you could literally set up a form on a server somewhere that accepts submissions and publishes them directly into the registry on /TR via Echidna automatically 08:43:54 you probably want to do some spam-checking, but otherwise that's the minimum requirement 08:44:05 dsinger: Finally ready to hear from the room! 08:44:08 "you could" but no one has. I'd rather see examples of success than a hypothetical untested process proposal for registries 08:44:28 nigel: definition of registries looked like data... but is it a document? 08:44:37 .. does the intro say "this is a registry" etc. 08:44:38 q+ to talk about CCG registries, who gets to update, how are things maintained? 08:44:54 what's CCG? 08:45:11 dsinger: illustrates an example merging the rules + data 08:45:27 .. updates can occur if you obey the rules in the rule section 08:45:29 https://w3c-ccg.github.io/did-method-registry/#the-registry 08:45:31 dsinger projects https://www.w3.org/TR/timing-entrytypes-registry/ 08:45:36 nigel: Is this a new state between informative and normative? 08:45:54 dsinger: Can't we just publish as a REC? Others say, no a new thing... don't care either way. 08:46:09 .. want to ensure whatever we do has had community review. 08:46:27 https://w3c-ccg.github.io/vc-extension-registry/#the-registry 08:46:27 .. I think REC track does that well. Exclusion opp. is empty, but that's harmless. 08:46:38 q? 08:46:38 florian: to publish all parts separately... then... 08:46:46 .. various parts need different process 08:46:53 ack n 08:46:53 nigel, you wanted to ask if informative text is allowed - isn't a registry simply a document? 08:46:55 q+ tobias 08:46:55 .. if we require them all in a REC, then we have a REC process already! 08:46:57 dsinger we need queue management of q+ vs mics 08:46:59 .. I prefer balance. 08:47:14 .. Rules + Registry together AND both inside a sepc. 08:47:31 .. Don't think it makes sense so publish the rules from the data. 08:47:41 dsinger: Well, the largest registry does it that way... 08:47:49 florian: it's subjective. 08:48:14 .. if allow it in the spec, need a rule to allow content of the table to be updated in place. 08:48:47 .. many of the rules are there to suppport patent rules... 08:48:58 .. we can then adapt our process to match 08:49:05 q? 08:49:22 yoshiro: IANA is biggest registry... why not use IANA for the registry? 08:50:13 .. they have proceedure already defined. Process could be applied in W3C too. Reuse is good practice. 08:50:39 florian: W3C does not have to manage all registries in the world. Often W3C does normative references... 08:51:12 .. for people that want to do a registry at W3C we don't have a good answer. 08:51:34 dsinger: We *could* ride along on IANA and have them help us... 08:51:45 .. but seems like a formalization problem (not that we don't know how to do it) 08:51:59 joshiro: can be a discussion between SDOs. 08:52:02 q? 08:52:06 ack manu 08:52:06 manu, you wanted to talk about CCG registries, who gets to update, how are things maintained? 08:52:14 manu: CCG currently has a set of informal registires 08:52:34 .. extensions to VC spec. WG had to figure out who would manage 08:53:00 .. Decided that CCG (since it would continue to exist) would manage the registry 08:53:05 .. same in several other examples. 08:53:13 .. so CCG now has a bunch of registries. 08:53:22 .. But process I see looks quite heavyweight 08:53:32 .. Turns out we have 32 new DIDs 08:53:37 .. every week! 08:53:39 romain has left #registries 08:53:44 .. would be quite a burden! 08:53:46 romain has joined #registries 08:53:56 dsinger: To add a new row is as lightweight as you define. 08:54:13 .. We won't put requirements on the rules... we just want you to follow the rules that you had approved. 08:54:36 fantasai: You can assign a custodian... you could link it to a form submit button, etc. 08:54:53 dsinger: As long as it's fully acceptable to the community. 08:55:09 .. The WG can setup the level of review that is necessary or appropriate. 08:55:23 manu: The CCG made a process to put the rule definition inline in the document. 08:55:39 .. Rules and values are together in one document. 08:55:52 q+ drummond 08:55:55 tantek: Also got an impression that the process would be heavy! 08:56:07 q+ 08:56:33 .. have seen many registries go to other places because they say a heavy process and decided not to go there (so created their own registry) 08:56:39 .. happy with what I just heard. 08:56:58 dsinger: So far, havent come up with anything we think needs to be required in the rules for a registry. 08:57:47 dsinger: If you Github or something else, you just need to make sure the published values go into TR/ (W3C) 08:58:18 tantek: That may need more explanation... pushing something to TR/ seems like a big barrier. 08:58:47 fantasai: we have an auto publishing thing (Euchidna)? This makes it easier.. 08:58:54 q? 08:59:00 Echidna is still VERY confusing 08:59:05 and the setup is definitely not easy 08:59:06 .. you could set that up to work for your registry. 08:59:06 s/Euchidna/Echidna/ 08:59:47 tantek: Please provide the example for how to do this!!! Don't make it someone else's job to discover it. 09:00:08 dsinger: Have asked, what does publishing to TR/ get you? 09:00:18 tantek: I'm not asking to see the benefits... 09:00:25 dsinger: Let me try... 09:00:33 .. Formal URL, not Github 09:00:53 .. Backed up (redundant) w/history 09:01:04 .. Copies only happen if you obeyed the rules... 09:01:11 .. if the copy is automatic, then...? 09:01:45 tantek: Github is just fine for folks outside of this room (vs. w3.org) 09:01:52 q? 09:01:56 ack tobias 09:02:20 q+ to ask who 09:02:22 tobias: thoughts... should verifiable credentials be split out? what do you think 09:02:50 dsinger: Have a large registry that is broken up in multiple tables, but it is a single registry... can be as complex as possible. 09:02:59 q+ 09:03:15 Robert: Exclusions... simplest I can imagine is a 3-value registry. 09:03:30 .. what if they change one of the values to mean something totally different? 09:03:40 .. if the registry value changes, what happens 09:03:42 ? 09:04:02 dsinger: A rule should be created--that you can or probably CANNOT change the meaning of existing values. 09:04:24 Robert: is there a mechanism to redirect values of a registry into another document... 09:04:37 dsinger: As long as its defined as a registry, multiple can refer to it... 09:05:06 fantasai: Example: 5 specs want to have a dir prop that has these values in the registry... you reference it. 09:05:18 .. If you want to auto-import the values into the document, you write a script for that. 09:05:32 Robert: Transclusion... 09:06:06 fantasai: Can't change documents in-place... if you copy from another document, you'll need to make a copy of your own document.... 09:06:45 Robert: you just want to link to the registry values, but not have to scroll down to teh value section... 09:06:51 fantasai: we have :-) 09:07:14 dsinger: If it's in the spec, then the spec will get frequent changes, but they only come from updates to the table. 09:07:23 s/// 09:07:36 florian: If it's used by multiple specs, then just have (missed it) 09:07:53 dsinger: Make the rules the least-restrictive as possible, and then see what happens (that's my style) 09:07:58 .. others prefer more structure. 09:08:15 .. If you're going to have 3 values, just put in the document! 09:08:34 nigel: You should be careful about those values changing.. maybe that shouldn't be a registry 09:08:44 dsinger: if its a small set of values... 09:09:10 nigel: What if the WG might stop existing... and there are updates? 09:09:15 azaroth_ has joined #registries 09:09:30 dsinger: Might be cautious to add a rule that says the WG should do the update... 09:09:50 florian: Can indicate who should do the update (can be CG, somewhere else..) 09:10:06 nigel: So, you'll need to get permission for whomever will maintain the registry. 09:10:14 .. that should probably be a rule. 09:10:44 .. if it says "the team" might update the registry, and it gets a lot of new values, then don't annoy the team. (get permission first) 09:11:09 Drummond: Hi folks! 09:11:14 .. I'm in DID 09:11:25 .. A 'registry' in DID is a database 09:11:31 .. it's a read/write thing 09:11:41 .. I'm sharing a perspective here. 09:11:57 .. Just want to let you know this was pretty confusing when I walked in! 09:12:09 .. Devs will want to write software against the values in the registry. 09:12:37 florian: We don't need to have registries that can only be read by humans. Could be made machine-readable... 09:13:01 .. Examples: you might publish both human and machine readable version 09:13:06 My other database is a 09:13:06 .. or one or the other. 09:13:48 dsinger: The spec could point to the Github repo... the machine version can point to the other location. 09:14:08 .. want to ensure this fits within the community's needs. 09:14:48 Drummond: There could be more dynamic registries.. could be process overload! 09:15:10 florian: Not sure if we need to run software services to handle things. It's just a file we need to publish. 09:15:22 .. We can maintain a file on a server. That's cool. 09:15:35 .. Don't put it in MySQL Lite 2.3.a 09:16:08 fantasai: No reason not to [also] publish your registry elsewhere in a more usable form 09:16:32 dsinger: Am familiar with systems that only provide a search/lookup system. That's probably not going to work. 09:16:32 browsers can display the HTML spec, browser can display your registry as an HTML

09:16:44 florian: It really must exist in some form of linear format to be OK. 09:17:04 q? 09:17:14 ack nigel 09:17:14 nigel, you wanted to ask who 09:17:28 ack drummond 09:17:40 drummond: My point, many things that are registres are usually database (with programmatic access). 09:17:51 .. would love to see W3C move toward programmable web. 09:17:55 .. it's a dream! 09:18:01 -> https://www.w3.org/TR/emotion-voc/ EmotionML vocabulary Note 09:18:02 ack kaz 09:18:13 Kazuyuki: Example of a registry above 09:18:33 .. group was closed, and the registry not maintained. 09:18:43 Another example from a couple years ago: https://www.w3.org/TR/annotation-model/#motivation-and-purpose 09:18:49 .. we need to think about who will maintain it when it's setup. 09:19:01 florian: Two downsides with W3C Note. 09:19:04 TTWG has also used WG Notes for registries 09:19:20 .. You write rules for the update 09:19:30 TTWG Update policy is that WG Consensus is required 09:19:32 .. Don't want to be able to update the rules in a doc update! 09:19:45 q? 09:19:49 ack JoeAndrieu 09:20:03 JoeAndrieu: This is GREAT!!! Where were you before!!!??? 09:20:34 JoeAndrieu: I second Tantek's concern about publishing to a TR... bumped into process issues. 09:20:54 JoeAndrieu: Now that I've done it, I know, but please make it better for the future! 09:21:03 fantasai: Yeah... first time's the hardest. 09:21:24 florian: There are multiple steps.. there's the process AND the tooling. 09:21:30 .. need documentation, etc. 09:21:39 .. focus here is on governance 09:21:50 s|it's set up|it's setup (as Nigel also mentioned) in addition to the style/mechanism of the possible registry| 09:21:55 JoeAndrieu: wiki mentions a lightweight group that's not a CG or WG... 09:22:03 .. would love to see this explored. 09:22:15 .. don't see our group have the moral authority to handle the registries 09:22:35 dsinger: need guideance on what to say about how the registries get changed. A review expert? Review group? 09:22:58 JoeAndrieu: have already changed the registry.. not just data, but also rule sets 09:23:08 .. don't want to do that in CCG. 09:23:20 florian: Sometime the registry is just used to avoid collisions. 09:23:34 .. in which case, anyone could do it! Very little process is needed. 09:23:49 .. might be interesting to formalize the patterns. 09:24:03 dsinger: also want to avoid duplicate meanings. 09:24:11 .. requires checking by a human 09:24:25 q? 09:24:32 .. might need to be an expert in the team 09:24:37 Zakim, close the queue 09:24:37 ok, tantek, the speaker queue is closed 09:24:49 JoeAndrieu: had a problem with name-grabs and had to deal with that. 09:25:04 RRSagent, make minutes 09:25:04 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-registries-minutes.html tantek 09:25:20 florian: Just want to make sure that changing the rules gets as much review as when they were established 09:25:38 dsinger: Are we done? I've learned a lot. 09:25:44 .. next steps: 09:25:59 .. create formal process text and get your feedback. 09:26:27 .. these folks who've done "proto-registries" can help provide good feedback. 09:26:49 JoeAndrieu: Let's work together to do the transition to grandfather existing registries? 09:27:05 iclelland: On structural changes... 09:27:14 .. if I want to delete a column 09:27:27 .. what would the rules be like to do this? Esp. if it might be referenced? 09:27:55 dsinger: sounds like: I want to change the registry rules. Will need to delete community approval; chance for review 09:28:15 nigel: Should be good practice never to delete anything from a registry; just mark it as deleted. 09:28:28 .. prevents re-capturing the name for something else. 09:28:37 dsinger: That's good practice! 09:28:58 tombstoning ☠️ 09:29:10 JoeAndrieu: Pattern that might not be supported: in progress draft but using a registry? 09:29:22 dsinger: At some point you need to finalize the registry. 09:29:51 .. I want to write this in the process, then to the CG process to allow them to do this... 09:30:26 RRSAgent, make minutes 09:30:26 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-registries-minutes.html tantek 09:31:27 iclelland has joined #registries 09:31:45 nigel has joined #registries 09:33:20 yoshiroy has left #registries