IRC log of registries on 2019-09-18

Timestamps are in UTC.

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koalie has changed the topic to: https://w3c.github.io/tpac-breakouts/sessions.html
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RRSAgent, pointer?
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See https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-registries-irc#T05-39-04
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present+ dsinger
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present+
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present+
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present+
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08:34:59 [dsinger]
https://www.w3.org/2019/Talks/TPAC/ac-registries/Overview.html#start
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08:35:16 [manu]
rrsagent, draft minutes
08:35:16 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-registries-minutes.html manu
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08:35:35 [kaz]
present+ Kaz_Ashimura
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08:35:47 [manu]
present+
08:35:53 [manu]
rrsagent, make logs public
08:35:56 [Travis]
Scribe: Travis
08:36:04 [manu]
Meeting: Registries Breakout
08:36:07 [tantek]
present+
08:36:10 [manu]
rrsagent, draft minutes
08:36:10 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-registries-minutes.html manu
08:36:21 [nigel]
present+ Nigel_Megitt
08:36:23 [nigel]
Chair: David_Singer
08:36:30 [yoshiroy]
present+ Yoshiro_Yoneya
08:38:17 [Travis]
(dsinger presents slides on Registries) link?
08:39:30 [tantek]
hmm I wouldn't expect this to fly because the reason we have so many ways of doing registries is to get rid of all this process / bureaucracy
08:39:43 [nigel]
q+ to ask if informative text is allowed - isn't a registry simply a document?
08:39:50 [tantek]
TBH this is even more onerous than IANA policies
08:39:58 [florian]
URL to slides: https://www.w3.org/2019/Talks/TPAC/ac-registries/
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08:40:22 [azaroth]
present+ Rob_Sanderson
08:41:41 [Travis]
dsinger: so which things can you publish together.
08:42:01 [Travis]
.. registry definitions, referencing documents, rules, etc...
08:42:41 [Travis]
"W3C Registry" as a new kind of publication
08:42:50 [tantek]
oh dear
08:43:29 [fantasai]
tantek, not sure why you think it's more onerous than IANA; you could literally set up a form on a server somewhere that accepts submissions and publishes them directly into the registry on /TR via Echidna automatically
08:43:54 [fantasai]
you probably want to do some spam-checking, but otherwise that's the minimum requirement
08:44:05 [Travis]
dsinger: Finally ready to hear from the room!
08:44:08 [tantek]
"you could" but no one has. I'd rather see examples of success than a hypothetical untested process proposal for registries
08:44:28 [Travis]
nigel: definition of registries looked like data... but is it a document?
08:44:37 [Travis]
.. does the intro say "this is a registry" etc.
08:44:38 [manu]
q+ to talk about CCG registries, who gets to update, how are things maintained?
08:44:54 [tantek]
what's CCG?
08:45:11 [Travis]
dsinger: illustrates an example merging the rules + data
08:45:27 [Travis]
.. updates can occur if you obey the rules in the rule section
08:45:29 [manu]
https://w3c-ccg.github.io/did-method-registry/#the-registry
08:45:31 [fantasai]
dsinger projects https://www.w3.org/TR/timing-entrytypes-registry/
08:45:36 [Travis]
nigel: Is this a new state between informative and normative?
08:45:54 [Travis]
dsinger: Can't we just publish as a REC? Others say, no a new thing... don't care either way.
08:46:09 [Travis]
.. want to ensure whatever we do has had community review.
08:46:27 [manu]
https://w3c-ccg.github.io/vc-extension-registry/#the-registry
08:46:27 [Travis]
.. I think REC track does that well. Exclusion opp. is empty, but that's harmless.
08:46:38 [tantek]
q?
08:46:38 [Travis]
florian: to publish all parts separately... then...
08:46:46 [Travis]
.. various parts need different process
08:46:53 [nigel]
ack n
08:46:53 [Zakim]
nigel, you wanted to ask if informative text is allowed - isn't a registry simply a document?
08:46:55 [manu]
q+ tobias
08:46:55 [Travis]
.. if we require them all in a REC, then we have a REC process already!
08:46:57 [tantek]
dsinger we need queue management of q+ vs mics
08:46:59 [Travis]
.. I prefer balance.
08:47:14 [Travis]
.. Rules + Registry together AND both inside a sepc.
08:47:31 [Travis]
.. Don't think it makes sense so publish the rules from the data.
08:47:41 [Travis]
dsinger: Well, the largest registry does it that way...
08:47:49 [Travis]
florian: it's subjective.
08:48:14 [Travis]
.. if allow it in the spec, need a rule to allow content of the table to be updated in place.
08:48:47 [Travis]
.. many of the rules are there to suppport patent rules...
08:48:58 [Travis]
.. we can then adapt our process to match
08:49:05 [dsinger]
q?
08:49:22 [Travis]
yoshiro: IANA is biggest registry... why not use IANA for the registry?
08:50:13 [Travis]
.. they have proceedure already defined. Process could be applied in W3C too. Reuse is good practice.
08:50:39 [Travis]
florian: W3C does not have to manage all registries in the world. Often W3C does normative references...
08:51:12 [Travis]
.. for people that want to do a registry at W3C we don't have a good answer.
08:51:34 [Travis]
dsinger: We *could* ride along on IANA and have them help us...
08:51:45 [Travis]
.. but seems like a formalization problem (not that we don't know how to do it)
08:51:59 [Travis]
joshiro: can be a discussion between SDOs.
08:52:02 [tantek]
q?
08:52:06 [dsinger]
ack manu
08:52:06 [Zakim]
manu, you wanted to talk about CCG registries, who gets to update, how are things maintained?
08:52:14 [Travis]
manu: CCG currently has a set of informal registires
08:52:34 [Travis]
.. extensions to VC spec. WG had to figure out who would manage
08:53:00 [Travis]
.. Decided that CCG (since it would continue to exist) would manage the registry
08:53:05 [Travis]
.. same in several other examples.
08:53:13 [Travis]
.. so CCG now has a bunch of registries.
08:53:22 [Travis]
.. But process I see looks quite heavyweight
08:53:32 [Travis]
.. Turns out we have 32 new DIDs
08:53:37 [Travis]
.. every week!
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08:53:44 [Travis]
.. would be quite a burden!
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08:53:56 [Travis]
dsinger: To add a new row is as lightweight as you define.
08:54:13 [Travis]
.. We won't put requirements on the rules... we just want you to follow the rules that you had approved.
08:54:36 [Travis]
fantasai: You can assign a custodian... you could link it to a form submit button, etc.
08:54:53 [Travis]
dsinger: As long as it's fully acceptable to the community.
08:55:09 [Travis]
.. The WG can setup the level of review that is necessary or appropriate.
08:55:23 [Travis]
manu: The CCG made a process to put the rule definition inline in the document.
08:55:39 [Travis]
.. Rules and values are together in one document.
08:55:52 [JoeAndrieu]
q+ drummond
08:55:55 [Travis]
tantek: Also got an impression that the process would be heavy!
08:56:07 [JoeAndrieu]
q+
08:56:33 [Travis]
.. have seen many registries go to other places because they say a heavy process and decided not to go there (so created their own registry)
08:56:39 [Travis]
.. happy with what I just heard.
08:56:58 [Travis]
dsinger: So far, havent come up with anything we think needs to be required in the rules for a registry.
08:57:47 [Travis]
dsinger: If you Github or something else, you just need to make sure the published values go into TR/ (W3C)
08:58:18 [Travis]
tantek: That may need more explanation... pushing something to TR/ seems like a big barrier.
08:58:47 [Travis]
fantasai: we have an auto publishing thing (Euchidna)? This makes it easier..
08:58:54 [dsinger]
q?
08:59:00 [tantek]
Echidna is still VERY confusing
08:59:05 [tantek]
and the setup is definitely not easy
08:59:06 [Travis]
.. you could set that up to work for your registry.
08:59:06 [kaz]
s/Euchidna/Echidna/
08:59:47 [Travis]
tantek: Please provide the example for how to do this!!! Don't make it someone else's job to discover it.
09:00:08 [Travis]
dsinger: Have asked, what does publishing to TR/ get you?
09:00:18 [Travis]
tantek: I'm not asking to see the benefits...
09:00:25 [Travis]
dsinger: Let me try...
09:00:33 [Travis]
.. Formal URL, not Github
09:00:53 [Travis]
.. Backed up (redundant) w/history
09:01:04 [Travis]
.. Copies only happen if you obeyed the rules...
09:01:11 [Travis]
.. if the copy is automatic, then...?
09:01:45 [Travis]
tantek: Github is just fine for folks outside of this room (vs. w3.org)
09:01:52 [JoeAndrieu]
q?
09:01:56 [JoeAndrieu]
ack tobias
09:02:20 [nigel]
q+ to ask who
09:02:22 [Travis]
tobias: thoughts... should verifiable credentials be split out? what do you think
09:02:50 [Travis]
dsinger: Have a large registry that is broken up in multiple tables, but it is a single registry... can be as complex as possible.
09:02:59 [kaz]
q+
09:03:15 [Travis]
Robert: Exclusions... simplest I can imagine is a 3-value registry.
09:03:30 [Travis]
.. what if they change one of the values to mean something totally different?
09:03:40 [Travis]
.. if the registry value changes, what happens
09:03:42 [Travis]
?
09:04:02 [Travis]
dsinger: A rule should be created--that you can or probably CANNOT change the meaning of existing values.
09:04:24 [Travis]
Robert: is there a mechanism to redirect values of a registry into another document...
09:04:37 [Travis]
dsinger: As long as its defined as a registry, multiple can refer to it...
09:05:06 [Travis]
fantasai: Example: 5 specs want to have a dir prop that has these values in the registry... you reference it.
09:05:18 [Travis]
.. If you want to auto-import the values into the document, you write a script for that.
09:05:32 [Travis]
Robert: Transclusion...
09:06:06 [Travis]
fantasai: Can't change documents in-place... if you copy from another document, you'll need to make a copy of your own document....
09:06:45 [Travis]
Robert: you just want to link to the registry values, but not have to scroll down to teh value section...
09:06:51 [Travis]
fantasai: we have <link> :-)
09:07:14 [Travis]
dsinger: If it's in the spec, then the spec will get frequent changes, but they only come from updates to the table.
09:07:23 [fantasai]
s/<link>/<a href=...>/
09:07:36 [Travis]
florian: If it's used by multiple specs, then just have (missed it)
09:07:53 [Travis]
dsinger: Make the rules the least-restrictive as possible, and then see what happens (that's my style)
09:07:58 [Travis]
.. others prefer more structure.
09:08:15 [Travis]
.. If you're going to have 3 values, just put in the document!
09:08:34 [Travis]
nigel: You should be careful about those values changing.. maybe that shouldn't be a registry
09:08:44 [Travis]
dsinger: if its a small set of values...
09:09:10 [Travis]
nigel: What if the WG might stop existing... and there are updates?
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09:09:30 [Travis]
dsinger: Might be cautious to add a rule that says the WG should do the update...
09:09:50 [Travis]
florian: Can indicate who should do the update (can be CG, somewhere else..)
09:10:06 [Travis]
nigel: So, you'll need to get permission for whomever will maintain the registry.
09:10:14 [Travis]
.. that should probably be a rule.
09:10:44 [Travis]
.. if it says "the team" might update the registry, and it gets a lot of new values, then don't annoy the team. (get permission first)
09:11:09 [Travis]
Drummond: Hi folks!
09:11:14 [Travis]
.. I'm in DID
09:11:25 [Travis]
.. A 'registry' in DID is a database
09:11:31 [Travis]
.. it's a read/write thing
09:11:41 [Travis]
.. I'm sharing a perspective here.
09:11:57 [Travis]
.. Just want to let you know this was pretty confusing when I walked in!
09:12:09 [Travis]
.. Devs will want to write software against the values in the registry.
09:12:37 [Travis]
florian: We don't need to have registries that can only be read by humans. Could be made machine-readable...
09:13:01 [Travis]
.. Examples: you might publish both human and machine readable version
09:13:06 [tantek]
My other database is a <table>
09:13:06 [Travis]
.. or one or the other.
09:13:48 [Travis]
dsinger: The spec could point to the Github repo... the machine version can point to the other location.
09:14:08 [Travis]
.. want to ensure this fits within the community's needs.
09:14:48 [Travis]
Drummond: There could be more dynamic registries.. could be process overload!
09:15:10 [Travis]
florian: Not sure if we need to run software services to handle things. It's just a file we need to publish.
09:15:22 [Travis]
.. We can maintain a file on a server. That's cool.
09:15:35 [Travis]
.. Don't put it in MySQL Lite 2.3.a
09:16:08 [Travis]
fantasai: No reason not to [also] publish your registry elsewhere in a more usable form
09:16:32 [Travis]
dsinger: Am familiar with systems that only provide a search/lookup system. That's probably not going to work.
09:16:32 [tantek]
browsers can display the HTML spec, browser can display your registry as an HTML <table>
09:16:44 [Travis]
florian: It really must exist in some form of linear format to be OK.
09:17:04 [manu]
q?
09:17:14 [nigel]
ack nigel
09:17:14 [Zakim]
nigel, you wanted to ask who
09:17:28 [nigel]
ack drummond
09:17:40 [Travis]
drummond: My point, many things that are registres are usually database (with programmatic access).
09:17:51 [Travis]
.. would love to see W3C move toward programmable web.
09:17:55 [Travis]
.. it's a dream!
09:18:01 [kaz]
-> https://www.w3.org/TR/emotion-voc/ EmotionML vocabulary Note
09:18:02 [nigel]
ack kaz
09:18:13 [Travis]
Kazuyuki: Example of a registry above
09:18:33 [Travis]
.. group was closed, and the registry not maintained.
09:18:43 [azaroth_]
Another example from a couple years ago: https://www.w3.org/TR/annotation-model/#motivation-and-purpose
09:18:49 [Travis]
.. we need to think about who will maintain it when it's setup.
09:19:01 [Travis]
florian: Two downsides with W3C Note.
09:19:04 [nigel]
TTWG has also used WG Notes for registries
09:19:20 [Travis]
.. You write rules for the update
09:19:30 [nigel]
TTWG Update policy is that WG Consensus is required
09:19:32 [Travis]
.. Don't want to be able to update the rules in a doc update!
09:19:45 [dsinger]
q?
09:19:49 [nigel]
ack JoeAndrieu
09:20:03 [Travis]
JoeAndrieu: This is GREAT!!! Where were you before!!!???
09:20:34 [Travis]
JoeAndrieu: I second Tantek's concern about publishing to a TR... bumped into process issues.
09:20:54 [Travis]
JoeAndrieu: Now that I've done it, I know, but please make it better for the future!
09:21:03 [Travis]
fantasai: Yeah... first time's the hardest.
09:21:24 [Travis]
florian: There are multiple steps.. there's the process AND the tooling.
09:21:30 [Travis]
.. need documentation, etc.
09:21:39 [Travis]
.. focus here is on governance
09:21:50 [kaz]
s|it's set up|it's setup (as Nigel also mentioned) in addition to the style/mechanism of the possible registry|
09:21:55 [Travis]
JoeAndrieu: wiki mentions a lightweight group that's not a CG or WG...
09:22:03 [Travis]
.. would love to see this explored.
09:22:15 [Travis]
.. don't see our group have the moral authority to handle the registries
09:22:35 [Travis]
dsinger: need guideance on what to say about how the registries get changed. A review expert? Review group?
09:22:58 [Travis]
JoeAndrieu: have already changed the registry.. not just data, but also rule sets
09:23:08 [Travis]
.. don't want to do that in CCG.
09:23:20 [Travis]
florian: Sometime the registry is just used to avoid collisions.
09:23:34 [Travis]
.. in which case, anyone could do it! Very little process is needed.
09:23:49 [Travis]
.. might be interesting to formalize the patterns.
09:24:03 [Travis]
dsinger: also want to avoid duplicate meanings.
09:24:11 [Travis]
.. requires checking by a human
09:24:25 [dsinger]
q?
09:24:32 [Travis]
.. might need to be an expert in the team
09:24:37 [tantek]
Zakim, close the queue
09:24:37 [Zakim]
ok, tantek, the speaker queue is closed
09:24:49 [Travis]
JoeAndrieu: had a problem with name-grabs and had to deal with that.
09:25:04 [tantek]
RRSagent, make minutes
09:25:04 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-registries-minutes.html tantek
09:25:20 [Travis]
florian: Just want to make sure that changing the rules gets as much review as when they were established
09:25:38 [Travis]
dsinger: Are we done? I've learned a lot.
09:25:44 [Travis]
.. next steps:
09:25:59 [Travis]
.. create formal process text and get your feedback.
09:26:27 [Travis]
.. these folks who've done "proto-registries" can help provide good feedback.
09:26:49 [Travis]
JoeAndrieu: Let's work together to do the transition to grandfather existing registries?
09:27:05 [Travis]
iclelland: On structural changes...
09:27:14 [Travis]
.. if I want to delete a column
09:27:27 [Travis]
.. what would the rules be like to do this? Esp. if it might be referenced?
09:27:55 [Travis]
dsinger: sounds like: I want to change the registry rules. Will need to delete community approval; chance for review
09:28:15 [Travis]
nigel: Should be good practice never to delete anything from a registry; just mark it as deleted.
09:28:28 [Travis]
.. prevents re-capturing the name for something else.
09:28:37 [Travis]
dsinger: That's good practice!
09:28:58 [tantek]
tombstoning ☠️
09:29:10 [Travis]
JoeAndrieu: Pattern that might not be supported: in progress draft but using a registry?
09:29:22 [Travis]
dsinger: At some point you need to finalize the registry.
09:29:51 [Travis]
.. I want to write this in the process, then to the CG process to allow them to do this...
09:30:26 [tantek]
RRSAgent, make minutes
09:30:26 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-registries-minutes.html tantek
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