IRC log of privthreatmodel on 2019-09-18
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 01:37:49 [RRSAgent]
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- logging to https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-privthreatmodel-irc
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- 02:00:33 [npdoty]
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- 02:00:50 [npdoty]
- present+ npdoty (remote)
- 02:00:59 [christine]
- could someone paste the CryptPad link here please
- 02:01:26 [jib_]
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- 02:01:35 [christine]
- found it - https://cryptpad.w3ctag.org/code/#/2/code/edit/NLylvy0EoY8ILUwfjq8wBOSQ/
- 02:02:01 [horo]
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- 02:02:14 [christine]
- Oops - that may not be the riight link
- 02:02:35 [iclelland]
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- 02:02:44 [christine]
- Looking again, it seems to be the right link
- 02:02:49 [wonsuk_]
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- 02:02:52 [Gooroomee]
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- 02:03:11 [jyasskin]
- https://cryptpad.w3ctag.org/code/#/2/code/edit/NLylvy0EoY8ILUwfjq8wBOSQ/
- 02:03:28 [Ralph]
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- 02:03:31 [jyasskin]
- We'll take minutes in the cryptpad.
- 02:03:32 [hiroki]
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- 02:03:36 [horiuchi]
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- 02:03:40 [Mek]
- Mek has changed the topic to: https://cryptpad.w3ctag.org/code/#/2/code/edit/NLylvy0EoY8ILUwfjq8wBOSQ/
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- 02:04:10 [dezell]
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- 02:04:15 [dezell]
- present+
- 02:04:23 [yoav]
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- 02:04:24 [Ralph]
- rrsagent, please make record public
- 02:04:34 [jmann]
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- 02:04:43 [yoav]
- cryptpad link?
- 02:04:44 [Ian]
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- 02:04:45 [manu]
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- 02:04:45 [mkwst]
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- 02:04:47 [taraw]
- present+
- 02:04:49 [anssik]
- Present+ Anssi_Kostiainen
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- 02:04:52 [yoav]
- presetn+
- 02:04:52 [Ian]
- present+
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- 02:04:55 [blassey]
- present+
- 02:04:56 [yoav]
- present+
- 02:04:57 [jmann]
- present+
- 02:04:57 [dbaron]
- present+
- 02:04:59 [manu]
- present+
- 02:05:06 [Ralph]
- present+
- 02:05:09 [Dave_Harbage]
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- 02:05:12 [jyasskin]
- https://cryptpad.w3ctag.org/code/#/2/code/edit/NLylvy0EoY8ILUwfjq8wBOSQ/
- 02:05:13 [iclelland]
- present+
- 02:05:14 [toml]
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- 02:05:16 [Mek]
- present+
- 02:05:18 [wseltzer]
- present+
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- 02:05:23 [toml]
- present+
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- 02:05:31 [kleber]
- present+
- 02:05:34 [rowan_m]
- present+
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- 02:05:42 [ota]
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- 02:05:43 [scheib]
- present+
- 02:05:44 [mitja]
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- 02:05:46 [Ralph]
- -> https://cryptpad.w3ctag.org/code/#/2/code/edit/NLylvy0EoY8ILUwfjq8wBOSQ/ realtime notes
- 02:05:51 [Fuji]
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- 02:06:35 [jfishback]
- present+
- 02:06:45 [christine]
- present+
- 02:07:04 [mitja]
- present+
- 02:07:05 [minobu]
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- 02:07:06 [npdoty]
- draft from jyasskin: https://jyasskin.github.io/privacy-threat-model/
- 02:07:24 [toml]
- +q
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- 02:08:51 [minobu]
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- 02:09:33 [manu]
- ack toml
- 02:10:05 [Riju]
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- 02:10:37 [englehardt_]
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- 02:10:50 [NavidZ_]
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- 02:10:58 [florent]
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- 02:11:27 [npdoty]
- q+ on “target”, and security threat modeling
- 02:11:41 [tung_]
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- 02:11:55 [manu]
- ack npdoty
- 02:11:55 [Zakim]
- npdoty, you wanted to comment on “target”, and security threat modeling
- 02:12:49 [mchampion]
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- 02:12:51 [melanierichards]
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- 02:13:20 [manu]
- q+ to ask how this document is expected to be used by WGs such at Verifiable Credentials and Decentralized Identifiers.
- 02:13:39 [jyasskin]
- ack
- 02:14:21 [toml]
- +q
- 02:14:25 [npdoty]
- I think the questionnaire is the WG-directed tool
- 02:14:41 [toml]
- +q to reply about sec/priv considerations
- 02:14:44 [npdoty]
- but having a common threat model will help, and be cited regularly in doing analysis or in those guidance documents
- 02:14:55 [manu]
- ack manu
- 02:14:55 [Zakim]
- manu, you wanted to ask how this document is expected to be used by WGs such at Verifiable Credentials and Decentralized Identifiers.
- 02:14:59 [wonsuk]
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- 02:16:35 [SteveBecker]
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- 02:18:05 [manu]
- q?
- 02:18:11 [manu]
- ack toml
- 02:18:12 [Zakim]
- toml, you wanted to reply about sec/priv considerations
- 02:18:18 [yo]
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- 02:18:22 [manu]
- q+ to note how this could be used as a hammer
- 02:18:24 [jkrafcik]
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- 02:18:32 [Ralph]
- topic #privthreadmodel real-time scribing in https://cryptpad.w3ctag.org/code/#/2/code/edit/NLylvy0EoY8ILUwfjq8wBOSQ/
- 02:19:06 [cwilso]
- ack manu
- 02:19:06 [Zakim]
- manu, you wanted to note how this could be used as a hammer
- 02:19:25 [toml]
- +q to suggest exactly that
- 02:19:33 [mitja]
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- 02:19:37 [johnwilander]
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- 02:19:37 [cwilso]
- q+ dbaron to talk about discussing things at different levels of detail
- 02:19:40 [jkrafcik]
- q+
- 02:20:51 [cortiz]
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- 02:20:55 [jcj_moz]
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- 02:20:59 [npdoty]
- I don’t think a threat model consists of statements like “you are not allowed to do X”, but it can tell you why it could be a really serious threat to a lot of people if you do X, and yes, many people might object because of that
- 02:21:19 [wseltzer]
- q+ on hammers and lack thereof
- 02:21:30 [wseltzer]
- +1 npdoty
- 02:21:50 [jyasskin]
- q+
- 02:21:55 [Dave]
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- 02:22:29 [jyasskin]
- ack
- 02:22:31 [Ian]
- q?
- 02:22:33 [wseltzer]
- ack toml
- 02:22:34 [Zakim]
- toml, you wanted to suggest exactly that
- 02:22:54 [mnot]
- +q
- 02:23:53 [jyasskin]
- q-
- 02:25:18 [npdoty]
- ack dbaron
- 02:25:18 [Zakim]
- dbaron, you wanted to talk about discussing things at different levels of detail
- 02:25:32 [toml]
- @npdoty Maybe more?
- 02:26:27 [toml]
- About 80, by my count.
- 02:26:44 [toml]
- You don't have a camera, huh.
- 02:26:54 [dontcallmeDOM]
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- 02:28:03 [wseltzer]
- dbaron, I think this doc does aim at that level of detail in its example table
- 02:28:04 [npdoty]
- I think that’s the goal for the questionnaire: https://w3ctag.github.io/security-questionnaire/
- 02:28:20 [npdoty]
- but a detailed threat model could certainly supplement that
- 02:28:20 [manu]
- q?
- 02:28:32 [reillyg]
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- 02:28:41 [jyasskin]
- ack jkrafcik
- 02:28:58 [Ian]
- (One idea is to say in the spec that one target audience is spec writers.)
- 02:30:14 [npdoty]
- sounds like a Living document to me
- 02:30:26 [toml]
- +q to say that people generally expect not to be tracked on the web
- 02:30:53 [npdoty]
- ack kleber
- 02:31:00 [Ian]
- q+
- 02:31:10 [Ian]
- q+ to ask about user experience considerations
- 02:31:14 [wjmaclean]
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- 02:31:45 [manu]
- ack wseltzer
- 02:31:45 [Zakim]
- wseltzer, you wanted to comment on hammers and lack thereof
- 02:31:57 [Dezell__]
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- 02:31:57 [npdoty]
- I think there are lots of security threat model documents that don’t require a detailed description of trade-offs, where people might want to build a feature even if it has security risks
- 02:32:19 [dezell_]
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- 02:32:48 [jcj_moz]
- I mean, the hammer(s) are mostly those that members hold up while pointing at, say, this document
- 02:33:01 [Riju]
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- 02:33:14 [manu]
- q?
- 02:33:19 [npdoty]
- jcj_moz, +1
- 02:33:19 [manu]
- ack mnot
- 02:35:09 [manu]
- q+ to support the "user expectations" and "tracking by default is an anti-pattern" approach.
- 02:35:17 [npdoty]
- ack toml
- 02:35:17 [Zakim]
- toml, you wanted to say that people generally expect not to be tracked on the web
- 02:35:47 [jyasskin]
- q+ living document
- 02:35:55 [manu]
- q+ jyasskin
- 02:35:55 [jyasskin]
- q- living document
- 02:35:56 [manu]
- q- living
- 02:36:05 [jyasskin]
- q+ jyasskin living document
- 02:36:10 [manu]
- q?
- 02:36:18 [wseltzer]
- ack Ian
- 02:36:18 [Zakim]
- Ian, you wanted to ask about user experience considerations
- 02:37:08 [manu]
- q?
- 02:37:30 [npdoty]
- I suspect there is not a consensus on this ideal model
- 02:37:53 [npdoty]
- ack manu
- 02:37:53 [Zakim]
- manu, you wanted to support the "user expectations" and "tracking by default is an anti-pattern" approach.
- 02:38:18 [Ian]
- Ian: There is probably not a consensus on the ideal model, but it's ok to write something down and say "This is why we consider this as the threat model"
- 02:38:33 [slightlyoff]
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- 02:38:49 [slightlyoff]
- q?
- 02:39:17 [Ralph]
- [how should on-the-record comments here be inserted into the cryptpad?]
- 02:39:31 [slightlyoff]
- q+
- 02:39:36 [dbaron]
- q+
- 02:39:47 [npdoty]
- ack jyasskin
- 02:39:50 [manu]
- q+ jandrieu
- 02:39:53 [wseltzer]
- ack jy
- 02:40:09 [kleber]
- q+ about what tracking means
- 02:40:11 [tdresser]
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- 02:40:14 [toml]
- +q to kick email while it's down
- 02:40:36 [kleber]
- q+ to talk about what tracking means
- 02:40:48 [toml]
- I don't like email, and I don't like it for login 🤷🏻♀️
- 02:41:00 [Sudeep]
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- 02:41:28 [deiu]
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- 02:41:44 [jkrafcik]
- q+
- 02:41:55 [npdoty]
- ack slightlyoff
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- 02:43:39 [manu]
- ack dbaron
- 02:44:14 [npdoty]
- I’m concerned that some people may be expecting a single number of bits of entropy on the Web today; we can summarize the set of existing research on fingerprinting, but it will not be a single number
- 02:44:37 [slightlyoff]
- q?
- 02:44:56 [Sudeep__]
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- 02:45:02 [slightlyoff]
- npdoty: I agree it won't be a single number; there's a lot of variability in each feature, however we can understand the ranges
- 02:45:31 [manu]
- ack jandrieu
- 02:45:37 [slightlyoff]
- npdoty: an reasonable model will need to deal with the statistical distribution
- 02:46:09 [jyasskin]
- q+ to talk about cutting the queue
- 02:46:16 [Ian]
- zakim, close the queue
- 02:46:16 [Zakim]
- ok, Ian, the speaker queue is closed
- 02:46:24 [Ian]
- ack jyasskin
- 02:46:24 [Zakim]
- jyasskin, you wanted to talk about cutting the queue
- 02:46:42 [Ian]
- ack toml
- 02:46:42 [Zakim]
- toml, you wanted to kick email while it's down
- 02:47:30 [dbaron]
- I wasn't talking about big warning boxes -- I was talking more about browsers setting expectations through things like the sort of things they ask for permissions for (since asking for permission for X somewhat implies that X doesn't happen if the browser doesn't ask for permission).
- 02:47:37 [dezell]
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- 02:47:49 [manu]
- ack kleber
- 02:47:49 [Zakim]
- kleber, you wanted to talk about what tracking means
- 02:47:51 [slightlyoff]
- npdoty: against a more emperical model, we can at least *chachterize* the quality of browser defaults
- 02:47:54 [Ian]
- (IJ agrees that "email as identifier" is not something built into the protocols but a social norm that gets better with web auth)
- 02:48:22 [toml]
- dbaron: I don't want browsers to be more honest about dystopia, I want there to be less dystopia.
- 02:48:32 [npdoty]
- slightlyoff, sure, we can summarize various statistics, that apply differently to different platforms, depend on different features, work for different threat models, have different outcomes for different population groups. I was referring more to csswg this week talking about a single number we needed to provide to prove that fingerprinting isn’t a lost cause
- 02:48:55 [hiroki]
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- 02:48:58 [slightlyoff]
- npdoty: e.g., when we evaluated the Tor Browser threat model years back on the TAG, it still had big holes in it. What we ended up with were principles that helped folks make more state user-controllable.
- 02:49:13 [mnot]
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- 02:49:32 [slightlyoff]
- npdoty: not a lost-cause per sae, but we can't have a discussion about how lost (or not) it is until it's bounded
- 02:49:38 [pranjal]
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- 02:49:47 [npdoty]
- slightlyoff, yeah, I think the Tor Browser threat model documentation could be another good source for this document and our guidance in general
- 02:49:54 [slightlyoff]
- npdoty: ducking empericism gets us nowhere
- 02:49:59 [slightlyoff]
- (except more arguing)
- 02:50:09 [manu]
- q?
- 02:50:12 [manu]
- ack jkrafcik
- 02:50:39 [npdoty]
- slightlyoff, I’m very happy to cite the latest research in all our work! +1 for empiricism
- 02:50:58 [Ian]
- zakim, open the queue
- 02:50:58 [Zakim]
- ok, Ian, the speaker queue is open
- 02:51:52 [manu]
- q+ for PING
- 02:52:07 [Ralph]
- [I wonder again how on-the-record comments here ought to be inserted into the cryptpad?]
- 02:52:25 [pranjal_]
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- 02:52:39 [manu]
- q?
- 02:52:43 [Ian]
- ack manu
- 02:52:43 [Zakim]
- manu, you wanted to discuss PING
- 02:52:44 [manu]
- ack manu
- 02:52:57 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-privthreatmodel-minutes.html Ian
- 02:53:25 [manu]
- q?
- 02:53:35 [npdoty]
- many thanks to jeffrey for working on this!
- 02:53:43 [manu]
- +1
- 02:53:47 [jfishback]
- +1
- 02:53:55 [tdresser]
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- 02:56:29 [Ralph]
- zakim, bye
- 02:56:29 [Zakim]
- leaving. As of this point the attendees have been npdoty, (remote), dezell, taraw, Anssi_Kostiainen, Ian, blassey, yoav, jmann, dbaron, manu, Ralph, iclelland, Mek, wseltzer,
- 02:56:29 [Zakim]
- Zakim has left #privthreatmodel
- 02:56:32 [Zakim]
- ... toml, kleber, rowan_m, scheib, jfishback, christine, mitja
- 02:57:55 [horiuchi_]
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- 02:58:06 [wseltzer]
- [Cryptpad transcript at https://github.com/w3c/ping/blob/master/summaries/breakout-privacythreat-20190917.md ]
- 02:58:36 [wseltzer]
- rrsagent, draft minutes
- 02:58:36 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-privthreatmodel-minutes.html wseltzer
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- 05:17:05 [jyasskin]
- Thanks wseltzer!
- 05:18:41 [wseltzer]
- thanks for leading the session, jyasskin
- 05:18:52 [jyasskin]
- :-D
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