23:59:50 RRSAgent has joined #pbg 23:59:50 logging to https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-pbg-irc 23:59:56 Zakim has joined #pbg 00:00:05 Meeting: Publishing Business Group at TPAC 00:00:42 present+ 00:00:48 Zakim, who is here? 00:00:48 Present: dauwhe 00:00:49 present+ 00:00:50 On IRC I see RRSAgent, toshiakikoike, Rachel, George, gpellegrino, ivan, dauwhe, mateus, bigbluehat 00:00:57 present+ 00:00:59 bobbytung has joined #pbg 00:01:01 present+ 00:01:02 Yanni has joined #pbg 00:01:32 present+ 00:02:32 JunGamo has joined #pbg 00:03:00 MasakazuKitahara has joined #pbg 00:04:33 jkamata has joined #pbg 00:05:09 present+ 00:05:26 present+ 00:05:33 Ralph has joined #pbg 00:05:43 jeff_ has joined #pbg 00:06:20 we need a scribe 00:07:54 laudrain has joined #pbg 00:08:05 present+ 00:09:25 Remote people can hear well. 00:09:41 we still need a scribe 00:10:13 jyoshii has joined #pbg 00:10:22 present+ 00:10:24 romain has joined #pbg 00:10:27 jroque has joined #pbg 00:10:35 Avneesh has joined #pbg 00:10:39 present+ 00:10:47 MURATA has joined #pbg 00:11:06 shu has joined #pbg 00:11:07 ShinyaTakami has joined #pbg 00:11:25 Hi! 00:11:26 wendyreid has joined #pbg 00:12:43 scribenick: jeff 00:12:57 Thanks Jeff 00:13:41 we need scribing particularly on questions/answers after presentations 00:13:47 Daihei: Coffee break is very short because we have so much material to cover. 00:13:48 florian has joined #pbg 00:13:56 horiuchi has joined #pbg 00:14:10 laurent has joined #pbg 00:14:12 Alan has joined #pbg 00:14:15 ... introducing Murai-sensei 00:14:16 present+ 00:14:19 JM: Good morning everyone 00:14:21 present+ 00:14:24 present+ 00:14:29 ... representing W3C Keio 00:14:42 ... also Host of TPAC meeting in Japan 00:14:47 ... welcome to Fukuoka 00:14:51 ... nice venue 00:15:07 ... G20 financial ministers also met here 00:15:18 ... their optical fiber is still here 00:15:38 ... talk about publishing 00:15:50 ... I am known as an Internet engineer 00:16:04 ... but also a UNIX engineer (originally) working on internationalization 00:16:12 ... much POSIX work is my work 00:16:19 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jun_Murai 00:16:40 ... Japan cares about text and language 00:16:52 ... most of computer science design started in English 00:17:08 ... I accepted proposals in many languages 00:17:17 ... POSIX (UNIX OS) and Internet 00:17:28 ... RFC 822 said English ASCII only 00:17:41 ... but I said to accommodate other lanugages 00:18:23 ... History started by proposing change in standard for internationalization 00:18:31 ... accepting multiple languages 00:18:38 ... implementing diversity of languages 00:18:41 ... LONG history 00:18:51 ... Japan uses different languages and culture 00:19:09 ... we contribute to internationalization, accessibility, and diversity 00:19:48 ... in 94-96 W3C worked on Olympic/Paralympic 00:20:00 ... Olympic website 00:20:05 ... started Web Accessibility 00:20:17 ... Tokyo Olympics in 2020 00:20:33 ... Florian and Elika will explain to the AC this afternoon 00:20:41 ... Vertical writing progress 00:20:47 ... demonstrates diversity 00:20:53 ... not only for Japan 00:21:54 Florian: CSS Writing Modes progress 00:22:01 ... from the CSS WG 00:22:14 ... reaching the level of W3C Proposed Recommendation 00:22:23 ... on its way to the W3C Director 00:22:25 ... will get AC review 00:22:55 ... this powers Vertical text in Japanese 00:23:04 ... many others did the work 00:23:13 ... bugs have been fixed 00:23:32 ... after AC review it will be a formal W3C Recommendation 00:23:37 ... complete at the spec level 00:23:43 ... Japan has been major driver 00:23:46 ... more work to do 00:23:53 ... thanks to the broad Japan team 00:24:10 JM: I appreciate efforts 00:24:16 ... and your (Florian) efforts) 00:24:21 ... also in publishing 00:24:31 ... important 00:24:43 ... users on internet is almost everyone 00:24:50 ... big change in 30 years 00:24:57 ... our contribution goes to everyone 00:25:02 ... publishing work for everyone 00:25:10 ... really appreciate your efforts 00:25:13 ... Thank you 00:25:18 naomi has joined #pbg 00:25:25 ... enjoy Fukuoka 00:25:34 present+ 00:26:31 DS: Good work in CSS 00:26:37 ... thanks to Jun Murai 00:26:42 ... thanks to APA for their support 00:26:51 ... also Kodansha, Shueisha 00:26:59 Luc: Thanks to APA 00:27:13 ... I hand it to Dave Cramer (Hachette) for the EPUB update 00:27:18 s/APA/APL 00:27:29 DC: I co-chair EPUB CG with Rachel Comerford 00:27:38 ... working on EPUB since 2001 00:27:51 ... in 2017 IDPF merged into W3C, starting the publishing work in W3C 00:27:55 ... 2 big problems 00:28:09 ... noone was using EPUB 3.1 00:28:09 Yanni has joined #pbg 00:28:16 ... no support from EPUBCheck 00:28:26 tomikura has joined #pbg 00:28:35 ... The CG wants to make things better 00:28:49 ... so we looked at these problems 00:28:56 ... preserve EPUB 3 content 00:29:45 ... Makoto-san and Garth Convoy (Google) recommended that we take 3.1, but make it backwards compatible with 3.01 - widely used in the world 00:29:53 Ralph_ has joined #pbg 00:30:04 ... so Matt Garish and I rewrote the spec 00:30:09 ... what to keep from 3.1 00:30:18 ... what to roll back for compatibility 00:30:23 ... bug fix 00:30:27 skk has joined #pbg 00:30:36 ryosuke has joined #pbg 00:30:51 ... The CG was open to all interested parties 00:30:55 ... anyone in the world 00:30:59 ... not only members 00:31:08 ... 61 people participated 00:31:15 ... a community effort 00:31:43 ... In May we published EPUB 3.2 as a W3C CG spec 00:31:52 ... approved by Publishing BG 00:32:01 ... EPUB check needed to support EPUB 3.2 00:32:10 ... formal validation required by retailers 00:32:11 ryosuke_ has joined #pbg 00:33:01 ... EPUBcheck had been dormant - relied on volunteers 00:33:11 ... but we ran out of volunteers 00:33:38 ... Rachel, Luc, on behalf of W3C wrote an RFP to fund the work 00:33:42 ... Much money raised 00:33:52 naoto has joined #pbg 00:33:56 ... Daisy funded to actually revise EPUBcheck 00:34:09 ... released in April; same time we finished EPUB 3.2 00:34:12 ShinyaTakami has joined #pbg 00:34:12 present+ nakao 00:34:29 present 00:34:36 ... Avneesh here from Daisy 00:34:36 s/present/ / 00:34:43 ryosuke_ has left #pbg 00:34:46 present+ 00:34:48 present+ naoto 00:34:48 ... great accomplishment of whole community 00:35:06 ... work together to find problems, do the work, get feedback, achieve the results 00:35:29 ... What is different about EPUB 3.2? 00:35:31 ryosuke__ has joined #pbg 00:35:47 ... strict backward compatibility (with EPUB 3.0.1) 00:35:58 ... but core web platform (e.g. CSS) is evolving 00:36:13 ... instead of writing profiles, we are pointing to HTML spec, CSS snapshot 00:36:20 ... widely available components 00:36:25 Kinpachi has joined #pbg 00:36:35 ... so EPUB has evolved with the underlying technologies 00:36:59 Yoshiba has joined #pbg 00:37:01 ... Web Fonts external to package, WOFF 2.0 00:37:07 present+ Yoshiba 00:37:11 ... What does this mean? 00:37:14 ShinyaTa_ has joined #pbg 00:37:25 ... If you are creating EPUB 2, you need to move to EPUB 3 00:37:32 ... accessibility benefits 00:37:43 ... If you are using EPUB 3, you don't need to change anything 00:37:49 ... please use EPUB check 00:37:55 ... use progressive enhancement 00:37:57 kiyoto has joined #pbg 00:38:06 ... If you can't use EPUB 3, come talk to us 00:38:12 ... we want to fix that. 00:38:37 horiuchi_ has joined #pbg 00:38:49 ... Thank you 00:38:52 Yoshiba_ has joined #pbg 00:38:58 Luc: Thank you Dave 00:39:03 ... slides will be available 00:39:06 ... running late 00:39:15 ... skip to Romain 00:39:19 ... hope to be short 00:39:39 RD: Brief update on EPUB check 00:39:42 kiyoto has joined #pbg 00:39:47 ... what's done, what's next 00:39:50 present+ kiyoto 00:39:54 ... I work for Daisy 00:40:11 ... mandated to take over development and maintenance of EPUB check, by the BG 00:40:40 ... we needed to make up for 2 years lost time 00:40:58 ... dealt with pending issues and bug fixes 00:41:10 ... most important was implementation of EPUB 3.2. 00:41:15 ... synchronized release 00:41:44 ... January to April was testing phase 00:41:50 ... released in April; ready for spec 00:42:05 ... A community effort 00:42:13 ... many comments, feature requests 00:42:16 presentt+ tomikura, ryosuke 00:42:18 ... discussions in CG 00:42:43 ... Japanese publishing community noticed a new rule 00:42:52 ... created errors for Japanese content 00:42:59 ... pushed issue to CG 00:43:14 ... made "error" into "warning" 00:43:39 ... here are main objectives 00:43:50 ... foundational work to make more maintainable and reliable 00:44:14 congratulations Romain for driving EPUBCheck to its current state! 00:44:24 ... improved system for GH issue tracker 00:44:39 Hoshino has joined #PBG 00:44:41 yoshi_shueisha has joined #pbg 00:44:48 ... revamping test suites (>1000 tests) 00:44:53 ... more readable 00:45:13 ... Next: carry on cleaning and refactoring 00:45:17 ... API interface 00:45:40 ... simplify for 3rd party tools and workflows 00:45:49 ... clean up 10 years of work 00:46:10 ... then add new checks 00:46:17 ... text and audio 00:46:26 ... not historically done by EPUB check 00:46:41 ... public website for project 00:46:45 ... landing page 00:46:50 ... download the latest 00:47:07 ... Thanks 00:47:26 Luc: Introduce Takami-sam from Kadokawa 00:47:29 motoi has joined #pbg 00:47:40 ... I am Shinya Takami 00:47:49 ... two questions 00:48:15 ... EPUB 3.2 and EPUB check; situation in Japan 00:48:27 ... second is future requirements 00:48:33 scribe+ 00:48:48 scribenick: Rachel 00:49:11 Shinya: existing epub files had errors due to a TOC violation 00:49:32 the EPUBCheck issue mentioned by Takami-san: https://github.com/w3c/epubcheck/issues/1036 00:49:39 ...we requested a change to the behavior of epubcheck and the publishing groups cooperated 00:50:20 ...we do need to say that the Japanese epub files are wrong and there are many many wrong epub files in Japan 00:50:45 This TOC issues happened in Taiwan, too. Thanks for the EPUBCheck community. 00:50:55 ...in 4.2.2 this issue is now marked as a warning instead of an error 00:51:09 ...making this good for the Japanese market 00:51:33 ...the next question was a feature request for the future of epub3 00:53:55 ...order specificifcations of the nav doc; fallback spec of image elements in OPF (manga contents would be packaged more simply); Attribute spec of "linear=no" in OPF (capability extension for dynamic advertisement) 00:54:15 present+ Hoshino, motoi, Kinpachi, tomikura 00:55:59 q? 00:56:38 Luc: slides will be made available 00:56:52 ShinyaTakami has joined #pbg 00:57:03 Kinpachi has joined #pbg 00:57:06 ...thank you to the companies that have donated to epubcheck 00:57:12 ...this is ongoing development 00:57:17 ...fixing existing bugs 00:57:21 ...updating to 3.2 00:57:36 suzukim has joined #pbg 00:57:38 ...and making it an easier to use tool for future generations 00:58:06 ...wear your tshirts with pride! 00:59:15 ...we will switch now to the work of PBG 00:59:26 s/PBG/PWG 00:59:34 ...and future standards 00:59:58 ...I'd like to introduce Wendy Reid, co-chair of the PWG 01:00:05 wendyreid: Thank you 01:00:18 ...today I'll speak about the audiobook specification 01:00:22 Alan has joined #pbg 01:00:35 ...this work began 2 years ago 01:00:48 ...as a part of the conversations around publishing on the web 01:01:14 ...last year we formed a task force around the use cases about where they differ from ebooks 01:01:22 i/this work began/scribenick: Rachel/ 01:01:38 ...we focused on listening, portability, navigation, accessibility 01:02:05 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-pbg-minutes.html Alan 01:02:18 rrsagent, set log public 01:02:24 ...when we talk about lsitening we talk about it consistently without interuption 01:02:56 ... potability means downloading, streaming, offline 01:03:07 ....navigation means knowing where you are 01:03:23 ...and accessibility means enjoying content no matter ability 01:03:28 hoshino_ has joined #pbg 01:03:32 rrsagent, this meeting spans midnight 01:03:51 ...in the process of developing the spec we looked at 4 new use cases 01:04:13 ...they are supplemental content, table of contents, synchronized media, and packaging 01:04:46 ...supplemental content is content outside of the audio recording that creates a more full experience (ie images) 01:05:22 ...table of contents is rich html which gives people the ability to know where they are 01:06:06 ...synch media synchronizes audio and text or tex tand rich media for the purpose of accessibility 01:06:46 ...packaging would allow for simplified exchange for B2B 01:07:00 ...and user downloads 01:07:31 ...this summer we're reaching out to more stakeholders to find additional needs and use cases 01:08:00 ryosuke has joined #pbg 01:08:15 ...and soon we will be moving to candidate recommendation and looking for implementors 01:08:41 ...questions? 01:08:44 q? 01:08:47 q? 01:09:03 ...the target date is the summer of 2020 01:09:05 ShinyaTakami has joined #pbg 01:09:24 luc: and now Laurent lemeur from EDR Lab 01:09:35 laurent: Thank you 01:10:10 ... EDR is a consortium of publishers, accessibility organizations, technical orgs, etc 01:10:34 ...we are working on many things open source, including the Readium software 01:10:38 Ralph has joined #pbg 01:11:33 ...on accessibility, we are working on bringing more accessibility to reading tools 01:11:48 yes i’ll ask for, thank you! 01:12:42 ...Readium is totally open source and a native toolkit for developers of reading applications 01:13:05 ...we want to support ebooks, comic books, manga, and audio books the same way 01:13:12 ...we want to support more than epubs 01:13:22 ...pdfs, wpubs, and anything else 01:13:38 ...we also want to mobile (ios, android) 01:13:46 ...and on the web 01:14:22 ...readium has a client and server part 01:14:32 ...which can be the same system or separate 01:14:58 ...this is how we can process epub files or web publications 01:15:21 ...we have dedicated some time to implement audio books on our platform 01:15:42 ...we can demo it from our platform outside of the presentation time 01:15:59 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-pbg-minutes.html Ralph 01:16:04 ...we are using the "readium web publication" 01:16:13 ...our own standard 01:17:02 ...we think it will be easy to create a W3C candidate recommendation from the readium standard 01:17:24 naomi has joined #pbg 01:17:46 ...we would like to port to web publications as soon as next month 01:18:00 Chair: Luc, Daihei 01:18:08 ... and are seeking a partnership 01:18:19 ...this would start with mobile/ios 01:18:25 q? 01:18:42 ...and then be on desktop and the thorium reader 01:19:03 i/we need a scribe/scribenick: jeff_/ 01:19:11 rrsagent, draft minutes 01:19:11 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-pbg-minutes.html Alan 01:19:13 ...and then finally be support by readium web (online only) 01:19:55 ShinyaTakami has joined #pbg 01:21:27 horiuchi has joined #pbg 01:26:44 Yanni has joined #pbg 01:27:04 naomi has joined #pbg 01:29:01 horiuchi has joined #pbg 01:32:22 horiuchi has joined #pbg 01:37:46 MasakazuKitahara has joined #pbg 01:37:54 dauwhe has joined #pbg 01:40:34 Kinpachi has joined #pbg 01:40:38 ryosuke has joined #pbg 01:40:52 toshiakikoike has joined #pbg 01:41:04 ShinyaTakami has joined #pbg 01:41:04 bobbytung has joined #pbg 01:41:54 Alan has joined #pbg 01:41:56 sh has joined #pbg 01:42:06 scribenick: romain 01:42:08 Yanni has joined #pbg 01:42:09 i/Thanks Jeff/scribenick: jeff_/ 01:42:18 rrsagent, draft minutes 01:42:18 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-pbg-minutes.html Alan 01:42:32 jkamata has joined #pbg 01:42:40 scribenick: romain 01:43:06 topic: Accessibility/DAISY Japan 01:43:07 JunGamo has joined #pbg 01:43:07 naomi has joined #pbg 01:43:27 naomi_ has joined #pbg 01:43:41 ShinyaTakami has joined #pbg 01:43:47 jeff has joined #pbg 01:44:06 present+ JunGamo ShinyaTakami, Shu, toshiakikoike 01:44:22 hiroshi_kawamura: I'd like to show a presentation of an actual Japanese textbook 01:44:39 naoto has joined #pbg 01:44:42 … then present the situation of ebook accessibility in Japan 01:45:02 [demo, in japanese] 01:45:11 Alan has left #pbg 01:45:21 hiroshi_kawamura: the narration is associated with the text hilighted on the screen 01:46:24 … the narration here is normal speed, can be increased x3 01:46:47 … or lowered to 80%, e.g. for learners of new languages 01:47:15 … it also supports vertical writing 01:48:06 … in Japanese-language textbooks, vertical writing (right-to-left) is a standard practice 01:48:47 … we can also change the color combinations, for instance for low-vision users or dyslexic sudents 01:49:04 … the idea is to adapt to the users' needs 01:49:22 … the text font size can be adjusted 01:49:38 … and the content reflows 01:49:46 skk has joined #pbg 01:50:27 ShinyaTakami has joined #pbg 01:50:55 … someone said it's very difficult to narrate maths expressions [cue demo of maths content] 01:51:10 … there are both a text description and an audio description 01:51:24 … the EPUB Media Overlays allow us to associate human narration to the text 01:51:37 … or the text can be read by TTS 01:52:21 jroque has joined #pbg 01:52:23 … this is a very important feature to support scientific content, relying on MathML 01:53:30 … about Born Accessible Publishing in Japan 01:53:57 … the overal legislation situation: ratification of the CRPD and the Marrakesh Treaty 01:54:10 … they are in place in Japan 01:55:04 … but what about actual content? 01:55:36 … reasonable accomodation: there is always a solution to read, readily available solutions 01:56:37 ShinyaTakami has joined #pbg 01:56:49 … now that we are hearing that EPUB 3.2 is ready, and EPUBCheck is available, and the ISO standard for EPUB Accessibility will soon be in place 01:57:08 horiuchi has joined #pbg 01:58:25 … I would like to point out that ~400 million USD are spent every year for public procurement of text books in Japan 01:58:36 … accessibility of textbooks is a basic human right issue 01:58:47 … it's a top runner of accessible publishing in Japan 01:59:07 … conclusion: there are challenges, but policy development is the key 01:59:29 … technical development is no longer a barrier 02:00:15 ryosuke has joined #pbg 02:00:29 … we need a change of attitude (copiright holders & publishers), fixing holes in the copyright law, and standardization of accessible and open affortable protection measures (like LCP) 02:00:46 ivan has joined #pbg 02:01:03 dauwhe has joined #pbg 02:01:17 jeff has joined #pbg 02:01:32 … thank you! 02:02:35 Avneesh has joined #pbg 02:02:42 horiuchi_ has joined #pbg 02:02:47 [up next: Avneesh Singh, DAISY Consortium] 02:04:09 naomi has joined #pbg 02:04:12 naomi has joined #pbg 02:04:24