IRC log of miniapp on 2019-09-18

Timestamps are in UTC.

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logging to https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-miniapp-irc
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rrsagent, make logs public
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present+
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present+ jeff
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present+
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present+
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present+
05:33:20 [chaals]
Angel: Have you read the miniapp paper?
05:33:21 [cwilso]
present+
05:33:24 [whsieh]
present+
05:33:25 [wanming]
present+ wanming
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05:33:27 [reillyg]
present+
05:33:32 [chaals]
…[ about half?]
05:33:35 [chaals]
present+
05:33:43 [chaals]
i/angel/scribe: chaals
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05:34:21 [chaals]
Topic: Intro to miniapps - Qing An
05:34:23 [xiaoqian]
present+
05:34:27 [angel]
present+
05:34:29 [MasakazuKitahara_]
present+
05:34:34 [mweksler]
present+
05:34:57 [chaals]
Slide: recent progress
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05:35:16 [plh]
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05:35:19 [chaals]
slide: miniApp is everywhere
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05:35:43 [chaals]
slide: MiniApp helps to solve problems like…
05:36:14 [chaals]
slide … the Web.
05:36:30 [ChrisLilley]
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05:36:33 [chaals]
QA: Web is not as capable as native platforms
05:36:33 [angel]
zakim, who is here?
05:36:33 [Zakim]
Present: Chunming, jeff, diervo_, yigu, wseltzer, cwilso, whsieh, wanming, reillyg, chaals, xiaoqian, angel, MasakazuKitahara_, mweksler
05:36:36 [Zakim]
On IRC I see ChrisLilley, yuyin, jsbell, plh, lizheming, Thomas, Qingqian, slightlyoff, xiaoqian, mweksler, MasakazuKitahara_, tomayac, xfq, HeWenli, xueyuan, stevenb, cwilso,
05:36:36 [Zakim]
... whsieh, reillyg, jUdy_zhu, chaals, diervo_, jeff, yigu, hirata, hyojin, Zakim, Chunming, angel, Max, wanming, Belem_Zhang, YJ_chen, RRSAgent, wseltzer, dbaron
05:36:39 [xiaoqian]
xiaoqian has changed the topic to: slides of this session https://www.w3.org/2019/09/Chinese_IG/MiniApp_breakout_session.pdf
05:36:40 [chaals]
slide: what is MiniAoo
05:36:46 [xfq]
present+
05:36:48 [plh]
present+
05:36:58 [ChrisLilley]
present+
05:37:04 [jUdy_zhu]
q?
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05:37:31 [chaals]
QA: Miniapp gives providers more options to distribute their app
05:37:38 [chaals]
slide: case study
05:37:46 [jv]
can we have a link to the slides plz
05:38:09 [chaals]
slide: case study 2
05:38:36 [chaals]
slide: case study 3
05:38:56 [chaals]
QA: You can use miniapps on systems like vehicles ,or smart speakers
05:39:06 [chaals]
slide: core features
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05:39:25 [chaals]
QA: provides a native-like experience for developers.
05:39:43 [chaals]
slide: Core features - data flow
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05:40:15 [jeff]
q?
05:40:32 [chaals]
slide: MiniApp widgets
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05:41:10 [chaals]
QA; so you can put a piece of information on the main screen, and then go into the miniapp from there.
05:41:28 [ChrisLilley]
q+ to ask "Can widget display inside another MiniApp?"
05:41:29 [chaals]
… widgets an call into other miniapps.
05:41:35 [chaals]
slide: security and privacy
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05:41:52 [Judy]
present+
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05:42:09 [chaals]
slide: things we want to standardise...
05:42:43 [chaals]
Topic: Things we want to stadardise Lei Zhoushu
05:43:08 [angel]
s/Lei Zhoushu/presented by Lei Zhixing
05:43:26 [chaals]
LZ: Miniapps can be launched from anywhere, so what is the difference?
05:43:38 [chaals]
… inside a package, so you download it once.
05:44:10 [chaals]
… Vendors have agreed on the file structure. We can describe how to create, parse, compress and decompress a miniappp
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05:44:22 [chaals]
slide: URI scheme
05:44:56 [angel]
zakim, q?
05:44:56 [Zakim]
I see ChrisLilley on the speaker queue
05:44:57 [chaals]
navigation of miniapps is important so we should define a miniapp scheme.
05:45:23 [chaals]
… packaging is critical, the next bit is about improving the experience
05:45:35 [chaals]
slide: transition animation
05:46:13 [chaals]
slide pull-down refresh
05:47:06 [chaals]
LZ: So user can get good experience for updating. This is hard in JS, would like a simple native way to do it.
05:47:17 [chaals]
slide: lifecycle events
05:47:44 [chaals]
LZ: We have onload etc, but there are some more things we want.
05:48:11 [chaals]
…e.g. after quitting an app it stays sort of alive in the background so you can instantly reload it.
05:48:18 [chaals]
slide: scrollview
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05:49:15 [chaals]
LZ: these last are high-level components to make miniapp feel more like native apps.
05:49:24 [chaals]
slide: miniapp widgets
05:49:49 [chaals]
LZ: user wants the widgets so they can do some work without being activated.
05:50:15 [xiaoqian]
more detail about mini app widgets -> https://www.w3.org/2019/09/Chinese_IG/miniapp_widget.pdf
05:50:16 [chaals]
QA: Some other requirements - allow native components to render in a min app
05:50:30 [chaals]
slide: native rendering
05:50:36 [chaals]
slide: other ideas
05:50:58 [chaals]
slide: next step - explore innovsation
05:50:59 [angel]
zakim, q?
05:50:59 [Zakim]
I see ChrisLilley on the speaker queue
05:51:37 [chaals]
QA: Thanks you
05:51:39 [jUdy_zhu]
q?
05:51:57 [torgo]
q?
05:52:00 [Judy]
q+
05:52:04 [torgo]
q+
05:52:17 [chaals]
ChrisLilley: can widgets also be displayed inside other apps?
05:52:20 [chaals]
[yes]
05:52:35 [chaals]
CL: So can a widet get user interactions in the app? How do you do the sanboxing?
05:52:56 [jeff]
ack chr
05:52:57 [angel]
q?
05:52:58 [Zakim]
ChrisLilley, you wanted to ask "Can widget display inside another MiniApp?"
05:53:03 [chaals]
??: Widget cannot be displaye in another miniapp. Can be embedded in a hosting app
05:53:25 [angel]
ack chris
05:53:25 [jeff]
q+
05:53:28 [chaals]
… after you click the widget, the miniapp pops up. At the moment...
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05:53:41 [xueyuan]
s/??/Zhiqiang Yu
05:53:54 [chaals]
… would be interesting to see if we can embed widget, but it is worth exploring
05:54:00 [angel]
ack Judy
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05:54:14 [sangwhan]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
05:54:14 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-miniapp-minutes.html sangwhan
05:54:29 [chaals]
JudyBrewer: Noticed in white paper there is a section on security and privacy. What about accessibility considerations? My understanding is minapps do not use the DOM, but that might be possible. in future...
05:54:58 [alex_liu_]
present+
05:55:10 [chaals]
QA: currently the DOM is not open to developers, it is possible in miniapp platforms we add more capability to access in teh future
05:55:17 [angel]
q?
05:55:41 [chaals]
… developers are willing to look carefully at accessibility.
05:55:59 [whsieh]
q?
05:56:01 [chaals]
JB: Are there ways W3C can help make miniapps and superapps more accessible?
05:56:23 [torgo]
I will discuss the manifest file format : https://www.w3.org/TR/appmanifest/ as part of a possible convergence path with Progressive Web Apps (PWAs): https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/Progressive_web_apps
05:56:35 [angel]
ack torgo
05:56:35 [chaals]
JudynogruZhu: We on't have a roadmap for accessibility but we can discuss this it is important
05:57:07 [jc]
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05:57:20 [chaals]
DanAppelquist: I already shared some feedback informally, I would hope the miniapp commuity in W3C leads to significant convergence between miniapps and the W3C stack work on progressive web apps.
05:57:53 [KenjiBaheux]
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05:58:01 [chaals]
… using manifest, servie worker. I saw that miniapp is a package that looks like a manifest of assets. We have been working on this for a long time as a standard…
05:58:22 [KenjiBaheux]
+queue
05:58:29 [chaals]
… good way to start converging is to adapt W3C manifest file, and send requirements on that as needed.
05:59:07 [chaals]
… that is happening in webapps group. I think that is the way forward. There should be convergence path, not just throwing away miniapps work.
05:59:16 [ChrisLilley]
q?
05:59:26 [chaals]
JeffJaffe: I'm impressed with how the work has prgressedd.
05:59:27 [xiaoqian]
ack jeff
05:59:28 [chaals]
ack je
06:00:06 [chaals]
… half a year ago there were about 100 faetures and not much clarity on what we needed to do, and today there was a very succinct list of what to do.
06:01:04 [chaals]
… similar to Dan - but as a question: what is the maturity level of the current iniapp work. Does this need to go through incubation, or is it mature - can it be developed in a WG or merged with existing work?
06:01:30 [mnot]
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06:01:42 [chaals]
??: to answer, from technical perspective tehre are a lot of technologies already mature enough and deployed, but we probably need some discussions about how we can move forward.
06:01:44 [jUdy_zhu]
q+
06:01:54 [chaals]
s/??/max
06:01:57 [angel]
?
06:01:59 [alex_liu]
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06:02:00 [angel]
q?
06:02:43 [chaals]
… think there could be two approaches. set up a WG - the requirements are clear, the technology is mature enough. We could also have a place for incubation - discussing what kind of work we can ispatch to reuse existing work in established WGs.
06:02:52 [chaals]
… both can work but we probably need more discussion.
06:03:07 [xiaoqian]
ack jUdy_zhu
06:03:24 [chaals]
ZHR: Would like to clarify - how mature is "mature"? MiniApp is very popular in real market in China.
06:03:38 [Bowen]
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06:03:46 [chaals]
… we need incubation stage also, in miniapps there are additional features that are not ust features of the web but are unique.
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06:04:14 [Chunming]
rrsagent, draft minutes
06:04:14 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-miniapp-minutes.html Chunming
06:04:19 [chaals]
… if it isn't at WewC we can always just do it in china. But if we go forward doing things here and get features in PWA work that can work out, but there are other features not suitable for PWA.
06:04:23 [ChrisLilley]
q+ to call for a clearer description of capabilities of the hosting superapps
06:04:31 [chaals]
… so we appreciate suggestions on how to move forward.
06:05:23 [chaals]
JJ: in terms of matury, understand it is powering China - it is useful and mature. But there is also a question on the maturity of interoperability. That's part of the question too.
06:05:34 [angel]
q?
06:05:54 [chaals]
LDP: yes, we an implement the functionality but we have some room to improve performance. And on interop, that is not mature enough yet.
06:06:02 [whsieh]
q+
06:06:05 [chaals]
… that needs standards work to improve the maturity level.
06:06:49 [chaals]
??: There are about a million developers making apps in China. Vendors are sharing traffic through miniapps, so developers in small companies are keen to develop miniapps.
06:07:19 [jUdy_zhu]
q?
06:07:31 [addison]
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06:07:36 [angel]
ack kenji
06:08:08 [chaals]
KenjiBaheux: to echo something Dan mentioned - there are pieces that feel very close to things that are being workedd on - web packaging is one I care about. I would like to know if what we are doing there doesn't work for you, and see if we can fix it because it seems the use cases are very close.
06:08:23 [KenjiBaheux]
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06:08:45 [angel]
q?
06:09:23 [chaals]
??: Web packaging as I undestand is a serverside technology. Website can use it to improve performance and cache content on different origins. Maybe miniapp can use web packaging, to improve distribution performance.
06:10:05 [xiaoqian]
Web Packaging -> https://github.com/WICG/webpackage
06:10:08 [chaals]
… but miniapp needs to resolve the problem that miniapp packaging has no origin. vendors should provide an origin an we can use web packaging. Or web packaging can support iniapp without a domain…
06:10:10 [angel]
s/??/qingqian
06:10:20 [whsieh]
^ chaals: I think that is KenjiBaheux
06:10:21 [torgo]
q?
06:10:36 [whsieh]
(oops)
06:10:41 [xueyuan]
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06:10:42 [chaals]
LZ: Miniapps can be distributed to stores.
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06:10:58 [chaals]
s/^ chaals: I think that is KenjiBaheux//
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06:11:32 [xueyuan]
rrsagent, make minutes
06:11:32 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-miniapp-minutes.html xueyuan
06:11:34 [Berg]
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06:11:43 [chaals]
… so major difference is coming to a store and don't need installation. With some control you can choose better security. on another side, deploying to a specific store, you can enable some optimisations
06:11:46 [angel]
q?
06:11:52 [chaals]
… improving user experience.
06:12:05 [jUdy_zhu]
q?
06:12:38 [chaals]
LDP: Web packaging intends to run web content in browsers, but miniapps can run on different kinds of platform.
06:12:48 [torgo]
q+
06:13:01 [torgo]
q-
06:13:16 [xfq]
ack ChrisLilley
06:13:16 [Zakim]
ChrisLilley, you wanted to call for a clearer description of capabilities of the hosting superapps
06:13:21 [torgo]
q+ to talk about the importance of origin in the web architecture.
06:13:40 [torgo]
q?
06:13:42 [chaals]
CL: White paper is well written - thanks. But it assumes you know what a super app is - it would be helpful to explain more about a super app that can host miniapps, so people can see how it is different to a web browser.
06:13:55 [chaals]
Angel: Thanks, good feedback we will look at doing that.
06:14:23 [chaals]
WinsonHsieh: If I am at a site, and install a miniapp, can the website find out whether its miniapp has been installed by a user?
06:14:32 [bowen_]
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06:15:11 [jeff]
ack wh
06:15:38 [chaals]
LZ: Currently no. But many programs exist so we could release the API to developers
06:15:46 [jUdy_zhu]
q?
06:16:05 [jc]
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06:16:26 [chaals]
DA: Following from Kenji, agree that it would be good to look at web packaging. You talked about origin. From a technical architecture, origin is critical to the web.
06:17:22 [chaals]
… a lot of the security properties of the web depend on the origin, so would suggest that we find a way for miniapps to have an origin.
06:17:38 [angel]
q?
06:17:42 [chaals]
… that will allow it to unlock web capabilities like storage...
06:17:44 [angel]
acl torgo
06:17:48 [angel]
ack torgo
06:17:48 [Zakim]
torgo, you wanted to talk about the importance of origin in the web architecture.
06:17:51 [KenjiBaheux]
q?
06:17:54 [KenjiBaheux]
+q
06:18:13 [chaals]
??: yes. We found that origin thing is important. We have no cookies, no storage, …
06:18:41 [xfq]
s/??: yes. We/LZ/
06:18:46 [xiaoqian]
s/??/Zhixing
06:18:59 [xfq]
s/LZ/LZ: yes./
06:19:01 [chaals]
… we implemented miniapp storage as a workaround. But we have ha no way to imrove things. We have an isolated sandbox for miniapps.
06:19:11 [angel]
q?
06:19:19 [xfq]
s/LZ: yes./LZ: yes. We/
06:19:22 [chaals]
… so they have a private key to get some esseential items. THis is a workaround I think.
06:19:50 [chaals]
TQQ: The difficulty with origin is runtimes do not have a URL available, so we cannot base on that.
06:19:53 [torgo]
q?
06:19:55 [torgo]
q+
06:21:01 [Zlei]
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06:21:04 [chaals]
… in mobile, native apps don't have URL access. so maybe we can use origin to download miniapp, but it is not useful for native app to access miniapp. This is a product issue. Technically, maybe we can transfer the miniapp to having a URL to access it, but native apps can't have that.
06:21:15 [angel]
ack kenji
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06:21:57 [chaals]
KB: origin is important - you had a slide with iniapps ening up in walled garden. as long as yu cannot find a miniapp in an open plae I don't see how you can solve the walled garden issue. Origin is a way to maintain an open system.
06:22:04 [jc_]
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06:22:15 [angel]
ack torgo
06:23:00 [chaals]
DA: motivation for these comments is thinking about a developer. If they want to make a miniapp, and know they can reuse their PWA for a miniapp or vice versa, it helps the web by helping them.
06:23:29 [chaals]
TQQ: Consider search engine or similar. URL is very useful.
06:23:50 [chaals]
s/ iniapp/ miniapp
06:24:27 [jc]
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06:24:28 [jeff]
q+
06:24:33 [chaals]
… we are also trying to find an efficient way to do it. Baidu has a technique, but not all miniapp vendors support the technique so maybe this is a next step.
06:24:47 [angel]
q?
06:24:50 [chaals]
??: normal web properties can run into that problem.
06:25:08 [xfq]
s/??: normal /Qing_An: normal /
06:25:12 [Chunming]
q?
06:25:30 [angel]
ack jeff
06:25:53 [chaals]
JJ: Big topic for one hour, but there is more work to do: W3C Team is interestedd in continuing the conversation with miniapp team, PWA vendors, TAG.
06:25:55 [KenjiBaheux]
[clearer version of what I said] Another reason why having an origin/url is important: you had a slide with "walled garden" as a downside of the current form of miniapps. As long as these apps can't be found and indexed in an open place, I don't see how you can solve the walled garden issue. Origin is a way to maintain an open system. It would be good to get it back even if today's mini-apps don't have such concept. Or perhaps you have other idea[CUT]
06:26:09 [chaals]
… Chris Lilley, Xiaqian, Fuqiao can help move the discussion forward.
06:26:14 [chaals]
Topic: Next steps
06:26:38 [ChrisLilley]
q+
06:26:48 [chaals]
Angel: Chinese IG has some clear ideas but think there are some details missing. Good time to tell us if you have conerns or suggestions. We know there are some areas we can collaboreate with that overlap.
06:27:04 [jUdy_zhu]
q?
06:27:13 [chaals]
look at the plan we have, and see if you have comments. And companies with similar plans, please collaborate.
06:27:21 [Chunming]
q?
06:27:22 [torgo]
q+
06:27:22 [chaals]
s/look/… look
06:27:32 [chaals]
… are there other options you can think of?
06:27:34 [Chunming]
ack ch
06:27:43 [jUdy_zhu]
q+
06:28:03 [xfq]
s/Xiaqian/Xiaoqian/
06:28:36 [chaals]
CL: the question about maturity. There is vast deployment - what should happen has been prototyped. This is not unusual stating point for a WG to get towards interoperability, so long as there is willingness to change implementation, I don't see why we should not start a working grop.
06:28:51 [angel]
ack torgo
06:29:14 [ChrisLilley]
q+ to respond
06:29:23 [chaals]
DA: suggest a CG, and think about what elements can be associated with existing W3C working group items. Manifest is being developed in WebApps, meeting this week.
06:29:55 [Chunming]
q?
06:29:58 [chaals]
… there are some others. Would love to see requirements on existing work that map onto what miniapps do
06:30:01 [Chunming]
ack j
06:30:26 [torgo]
q?
06:30:47 [xfq]
Mini App Standardization: update and next steps in AC meeting -> https://www.w3.org/2019/09/TPAC/ac-agenda.html#thursday
06:31:01 [chaals]
ZHR: Appreciate suggestions. Some people have talked offline too. Tomorrow there will be a session at AC. For us if the goal is to resolve the interoperability, and meet cinese requirements, we don't need to come to W3C.
06:31:17 [chaals]
… W3C is global, needs to include Chinese market too.
06:31:57 [chaals]
… A CG does not define standards. If you can satisfy existing requirements that would be great. Will think about whether we want a CG or WG…
06:32:17 [Chunming]
q?
06:32:19 [chaals]
Angel: Thank you all for comments and suggestions
06:32:33 [jeff]
q- chr
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rrsagent, draft minutes
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I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-miniapp-minutes.html wseltzer
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RRSAgent, make log public
06:32:56 [chaals]
[+1 to CL, think a WG makes sense assuming there is willingness to change implementation to match a new spec (and/or other existing ones)]
06:33:10 [chaals]
rrsagent, draft minutes
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I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-miniapp-minutes.html chaals
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s/max:/LiuDaPeng:
06:34:00 [chaals]
chair: An Qi Li - Angel
06:34:08 [chaals]
rrsagent, draft minutes
06:34:08 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-miniapp-minutes.html chaals
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Meeting: MiniApps - standardisation
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s/stadard/standard
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rrsagent, draft minutes
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present+ Qingqian, Zhiqiang, Zhixing, Dapeng, Anqing, Juejia
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rrsagent, make minutes
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