01:46:22 RRSAgent has joined #miniapp 01:46:22 logging to https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-miniapp-irc 01:46:26 rrsagent, make logs public 01:54:09 koalie has joined #miniapp 01:54:19 koalie has changed the topic to: https://w3c.github.io/tpac-breakouts/sessions.html 01:54:23 koalie has left #miniapp 03:11:50 Max has joined #miniapp 03:19:18 Guest19 has joined #miniapp 04:14:34 Max has joined #miniapp 04:23:39 Guest19 has joined #miniapp 04:58:48 Max has joined #miniapp 05:08:03 Belem_Zhang has joined #miniapp 05:08:35 Belem_Zhang has joined #miniapp 05:11:23 wanming has joined #miniapp 05:16:06 Max has joined #miniapp 05:23:35 angel has joined #miniapp 05:24:04 Yajun has joined #miniapp 05:27:15 Chunming has joined #miniapp 05:28:43 Zakim has joined #miniapp 05:31:59 hyojin has joined #miniapp 05:32:02 hirata has joined #miniapp 05:32:29 yigu has joined #miniapp 05:32:46 jeff has joined #miniapp 05:32:54 present+ 05:32:56 diervo_ has joined #miniapp 05:32:57 chaals has joined #miniapp 05:33:01 present+ jeff 05:33:03 jUdy_zhu has joined #miniapp 05:33:05 present+ 05:33:08 reillyg has joined #miniapp 05:33:08 whsieh has joined #miniapp 05:33:09 cwilso has joined #miniapp 05:33:09 stevenb has joined #miniapp 05:33:09 xueyuan has joined #miniapp 05:33:13 present+ 05:33:17 HeWenli has joined #miniapp 05:33:20 present+ 05:33:20 Angel: Have you read the miniapp paper? 05:33:21 present+ 05:33:24 present+ 05:33:25 present+ wanming 05:33:26 xfq has joined #miniapp 05:33:27 present+ 05:33:32 …[ about half?] 05:33:35 present+ 05:33:43 i/angel/scribe: chaals 05:33:55 tomayac has joined #miniapp 05:34:00 MasakazuKitahara_ has joined #miniapp 05:34:06 mweksler has joined #miniapp 05:34:09 xiaoqian has joined #miniapp 05:34:14 slightlyoff has joined #miniapp 05:34:16 Qingqian has joined #miniapp 05:34:21 Thomas has joined #miniapp 05:34:21 Topic: Intro to miniapps - Qing An 05:34:23 present+ 05:34:27 present+ 05:34:29 present+ 05:34:34 present+ 05:34:57 Slide: recent progress 05:35:06 lizheming has joined #miniapp 05:35:16 plh has joined #miniapp 05:35:19 slide: miniApp is everywhere 05:35:23 jsbell has joined #miniapp 05:35:25 yuyin has joined #miniapp 05:35:43 slide: MiniApp helps to solve problems like… 05:36:14 slide … the Web. 05:36:30 ChrisLilley has joined #miniapp 05:36:33 QA: Web is not as capable as native platforms 05:36:33 zakim, who is here? 05:36:33 Present: Chunming, jeff, diervo_, yigu, wseltzer, cwilso, whsieh, wanming, reillyg, chaals, xiaoqian, angel, MasakazuKitahara_, mweksler 05:36:36 On IRC I see ChrisLilley, yuyin, jsbell, plh, lizheming, Thomas, Qingqian, slightlyoff, xiaoqian, mweksler, MasakazuKitahara_, tomayac, xfq, HeWenli, xueyuan, stevenb, cwilso, 05:36:36 ... whsieh, reillyg, jUdy_zhu, chaals, diervo_, jeff, yigu, hirata, hyojin, Zakim, Chunming, angel, Max, wanming, Belem_Zhang, YJ_chen, RRSAgent, wseltzer, dbaron 05:36:39 xiaoqian has changed the topic to: slides of this session https://www.w3.org/2019/09/Chinese_IG/MiniApp_breakout_session.pdf 05:36:40 slide: what is MiniAoo 05:36:46 present+ 05:36:48 present+ 05:36:58 present+ 05:37:04 q? 05:37:09 torgo has joined #miniapp 05:37:12 jungkees has joined #miniapp 05:37:31 QA: Miniapp gives providers more options to distribute their app 05:37:38 slide: case study 05:37:46 can we have a link to the slides plz 05:38:09 slide: case study 2 05:38:36 slide: case study 3 05:38:56 QA: You can use miniapps on systems like vehicles ,or smart speakers 05:39:06 slide: core features 05:39:10 horo has joined #miniapp 05:39:25 QA: provides a native-like experience for developers. 05:39:43 slide: Core features - data flow 05:40:02 florent has joined #miniapp 05:40:04 jv has joined #miniapp 05:40:15 q? 05:40:32 slide: MiniApp widgets 05:40:45 Zhiqiang has joined #miniapp 05:41:10 QA; so you can put a piece of information on the main screen, and then go into the miniapp from there. 05:41:28 q+ to ask "Can widget display inside another MiniApp?" 05:41:29 … widgets an call into other miniapps. 05:41:35 slide: security and privacy 05:41:47 Judy has joined #miniapp 05:41:52 present+ 05:42:01 kosamari has joined #miniapp 05:42:09 slide: things we want to standardise... 05:42:43 Topic: Things we want to stadardise Lei Zhoushu 05:43:08 s/Lei Zhoushu/presented by Lei Zhixing 05:43:26 LZ: Miniapps can be launched from anywhere, so what is the difference? 05:43:38 … inside a package, so you download it once. 05:44:10 … Vendors have agreed on the file structure. We can describe how to create, parse, compress and decompress a miniappp 05:44:17 james has joined #miniapp 05:44:22 slide: URI scheme 05:44:56 zakim, q? 05:44:56 I see ChrisLilley on the speaker queue 05:44:57 navigation of miniapps is important so we should define a miniapp scheme. 05:45:23 … packaging is critical, the next bit is about improving the experience 05:45:35 slide: transition animation 05:46:13 slide pull-down refresh 05:47:06 LZ: So user can get good experience for updating. This is hard in JS, would like a simple native way to do it. 05:47:17 slide: lifecycle events 05:47:44 LZ: We have onload etc, but there are some more things we want. 05:48:11 …e.g. after quitting an app it stays sort of alive in the background so you can instantly reload it. 05:48:18 slide: scrollview 05:48:23 jayzhou has joined #miniapp 05:48:49 mweksler has joined #miniapp 05:49:15 LZ: these last are high-level components to make miniapp feel more like native apps. 05:49:24 slide: miniapp widgets 05:49:49 LZ: user wants the widgets so they can do some work without being activated. 05:50:15 more detail about mini app widgets -> https://www.w3.org/2019/09/Chinese_IG/miniapp_widget.pdf 05:50:16 QA: Some other requirements - allow native components to render in a min app 05:50:30 slide: native rendering 05:50:36 slide: other ideas 05:50:58 slide: next step - explore innovsation 05:50:59 zakim, q? 05:50:59 I see ChrisLilley on the speaker queue 05:51:37 QA: Thanks you 05:51:39 q? 05:51:57 q? 05:52:00 q+ 05:52:04 q+ 05:52:17 ChrisLilley: can widgets also be displayed inside other apps? 05:52:20 [yes] 05:52:35 CL: So can a widet get user interactions in the app? How do you do the sanboxing? 05:52:56 ack chr 05:52:57 q? 05:52:58 ChrisLilley, you wanted to ask "Can widget display inside another MiniApp?" 05:53:03 ??: Widget cannot be displaye in another miniapp. Can be embedded in a hosting app 05:53:25 ack chris 05:53:25 q+ 05:53:28 … after you click the widget, the miniapp pops up. At the moment... 05:53:40 sangwhan has joined #miniapp 05:53:41 s/??/Zhiqiang Yu 05:53:54 … would be interesting to see if we can embed widget, but it is worth exploring 05:54:00 ack Judy 05:54:10 alex_liu_ has joined #miniapp 05:54:14 RRSAgent, draft minutes 05:54:14 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-miniapp-minutes.html sangwhan 05:54:29 JudyBrewer: Noticed in white paper there is a section on security and privacy. What about accessibility considerations? My understanding is minapps do not use the DOM, but that might be possible. in future... 05:54:58 present+ 05:55:10 QA: currently the DOM is not open to developers, it is possible in miniapp platforms we add more capability to access in teh future 05:55:17 q? 05:55:41 … developers are willing to look carefully at accessibility. 05:55:59 q? 05:56:01 JB: Are there ways W3C can help make miniapps and superapps more accessible? 05:56:23 I will discuss the manifest file format : https://www.w3.org/TR/appmanifest/ as part of a possible convergence path with Progressive Web Apps (PWAs): https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/Progressive_web_apps 05:56:35 ack torgo 05:56:35 JudynogruZhu: We on't have a roadmap for accessibility but we can discuss this it is important 05:57:07 jc has joined #miniapp 05:57:20 DanAppelquist: I already shared some feedback informally, I would hope the miniapp commuity in W3C leads to significant convergence between miniapps and the W3C stack work on progressive web apps. 05:57:53 KenjiBaheux has joined #miniapp 05:58:01 … using manifest, servie worker. I saw that miniapp is a package that looks like a manifest of assets. We have been working on this for a long time as a standard… 05:58:22 +queue 05:58:29 … good way to start converging is to adapt W3C manifest file, and send requirements on that as needed. 05:59:07 … that is happening in webapps group. I think that is the way forward. There should be convergence path, not just throwing away miniapps work. 05:59:16 q? 05:59:26 JeffJaffe: I'm impressed with how the work has prgressedd. 05:59:27 ack jeff 05:59:28 ack je 06:00:06 … half a year ago there were about 100 faetures and not much clarity on what we needed to do, and today there was a very succinct list of what to do. 06:01:04 … similar to Dan - but as a question: what is the maturity level of the current iniapp work. Does this need to go through incubation, or is it mature - can it be developed in a WG or merged with existing work? 06:01:30 mnot has joined #miniapp 06:01:42 ??: to answer, from technical perspective tehre are a lot of technologies already mature enough and deployed, but we probably need some discussions about how we can move forward. 06:01:44 q+ 06:01:54 s/??/max 06:01:57 ? 06:01:59 alex_liu has joined #miniapp 06:02:00 q? 06:02:43 … think there could be two approaches. set up a WG - the requirements are clear, the technology is mature enough. We could also have a place for incubation - discussing what kind of work we can ispatch to reuse existing work in established WGs. 06:02:52 … both can work but we probably need more discussion. 06:03:07 ack jUdy_zhu 06:03:24 ZHR: Would like to clarify - how mature is "mature"? MiniApp is very popular in real market in China. 06:03:38 Bowen has joined #miniapp 06:03:46 … we need incubation stage also, in miniapps there are additional features that are not ust features of the web but are unique. 06:04:07 jc has joined #miniapp 06:04:14 rrsagent, draft minutes 06:04:14 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-miniapp-minutes.html Chunming 06:04:19 … if it isn't at WewC we can always just do it in china. But if we go forward doing things here and get features in PWA work that can work out, but there are other features not suitable for PWA. 06:04:23 q+ to call for a clearer description of capabilities of the hosting superapps 06:04:31 … so we appreciate suggestions on how to move forward. 06:05:23 JJ: in terms of matury, understand it is powering China - it is useful and mature. But there is also a question on the maturity of interoperability. That's part of the question too. 06:05:34 q? 06:05:54 LDP: yes, we an implement the functionality but we have some room to improve performance. And on interop, that is not mature enough yet. 06:06:02 q+ 06:06:05 … that needs standards work to improve the maturity level. 06:06:49 ??: There are about a million developers making apps in China. Vendors are sharing traffic through miniapps, so developers in small companies are keen to develop miniapps. 06:07:19 q? 06:07:31 addison has joined #miniapp 06:07:36 ack kenji 06:08:08 KenjiBaheux: to echo something Dan mentioned - there are pieces that feel very close to things that are being workedd on - web packaging is one I care about. I would like to know if what we are doing there doesn't work for you, and see if we can fix it because it seems the use cases are very close. 06:08:23 KenjiBaheux has joined #miniapp 06:08:45 q? 06:09:23 ??: Web packaging as I undestand is a serverside technology. Website can use it to improve performance and cache content on different origins. Maybe miniapp can use web packaging, to improve distribution performance. 06:10:05 Web Packaging -> https://github.com/WICG/webpackage 06:10:08 … but miniapp needs to resolve the problem that miniapp packaging has no origin. vendors should provide an origin an we can use web packaging. Or web packaging can support iniapp without a domain… 06:10:10 s/??/qingqian 06:10:20 ^ chaals: I think that is KenjiBaheux 06:10:21 q? 06:10:36 (oops) 06:10:41 xueyuan has left #miniapp 06:10:42 LZ: Miniapps can be distributed to stores. 06:10:50 alex_liu has joined #miniapp 06:10:58 s/^ chaals: I think that is KenjiBaheux// 06:11:05 xueyuan has joined #miniapp 06:11:32 rrsagent, make minutes 06:11:32 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-miniapp-minutes.html xueyuan 06:11:34 Berg has joined #Miniapp 06:11:43 … so major difference is coming to a store and don't need installation. With some control you can choose better security. on another side, deploying to a specific store, you can enable some optimisations 06:11:46 q? 06:11:52 … improving user experience. 06:12:05 q? 06:12:38 LDP: Web packaging intends to run web content in browsers, but miniapps can run on different kinds of platform. 06:12:48 q+ 06:13:01 q- 06:13:16 ack ChrisLilley 06:13:16 ChrisLilley, you wanted to call for a clearer description of capabilities of the hosting superapps 06:13:21 q+ to talk about the importance of origin in the web architecture. 06:13:40 q? 06:13:42 CL: White paper is well written - thanks. But it assumes you know what a super app is - it would be helpful to explain more about a super app that can host miniapps, so people can see how it is different to a web browser. 06:13:55 Angel: Thanks, good feedback we will look at doing that. 06:14:23 WinsonHsieh: If I am at a site, and install a miniapp, can the website find out whether its miniapp has been installed by a user? 06:14:32 bowen_ has joined #miniapp 06:15:11 ack wh 06:15:38 LZ: Currently no. But many programs exist so we could release the API to developers 06:15:46 q? 06:16:05 jc has joined #miniapp 06:16:18 ella has joined #miniapp 06:16:26 DA: Following from Kenji, agree that it would be good to look at web packaging. You talked about origin. From a technical architecture, origin is critical to the web. 06:17:22 … a lot of the security properties of the web depend on the origin, so would suggest that we find a way for miniapps to have an origin. 06:17:38 q? 06:17:42 … that will allow it to unlock web capabilities like storage... 06:17:44 acl torgo 06:17:48 ack torgo 06:17:48 torgo, you wanted to talk about the importance of origin in the web architecture. 06:17:51 q? 06:17:54 +q 06:18:13 ??: yes. We found that origin thing is important. We have no cookies, no storage, … 06:18:41 s/??: yes. We/LZ/ 06:18:46 s/??/Zhixing 06:18:59 s/LZ/LZ: yes./ 06:19:01 … we implemented miniapp storage as a workaround. But we have ha no way to imrove things. We have an isolated sandbox for miniapps. 06:19:11 q? 06:19:19 s/LZ: yes./LZ: yes. We/ 06:19:22 … so they have a private key to get some esseential items. THis is a workaround I think. 06:19:50 TQQ: The difficulty with origin is runtimes do not have a URL available, so we cannot base on that. 06:19:53 q? 06:19:55 q+ 06:21:01 Zlei has joined #miniapp 06:21:04 … in mobile, native apps don't have URL access. so maybe we can use origin to download miniapp, but it is not useful for native app to access miniapp. This is a product issue. Technically, maybe we can transfer the miniapp to having a URL to access it, but native apps can't have that. 06:21:15 ack kenji 06:21:51 KenjiBaheux has joined #miniapp 06:21:57 KB: origin is important - you had a slide with iniapps ening up in walled garden. as long as yu cannot find a miniapp in an open plae I don't see how you can solve the walled garden issue. Origin is a way to maintain an open system. 06:22:04 jc_ has joined #miniapp 06:22:15 ack torgo 06:23:00 DA: motivation for these comments is thinking about a developer. If they want to make a miniapp, and know they can reuse their PWA for a miniapp or vice versa, it helps the web by helping them. 06:23:29 TQQ: Consider search engine or similar. URL is very useful. 06:23:50 s/ iniapp/ miniapp 06:24:27 jc has joined #miniapp 06:24:28 q+ 06:24:33 … we are also trying to find an efficient way to do it. Baidu has a technique, but not all miniapp vendors support the technique so maybe this is a next step. 06:24:47 q? 06:24:50 ??: normal web properties can run into that problem. 06:25:08 s/??: normal /Qing_An: normal / 06:25:12 q? 06:25:30 ack jeff 06:25:53 JJ: Big topic for one hour, but there is more work to do: W3C Team is interestedd in continuing the conversation with miniapp team, PWA vendors, TAG. 06:25:55 [clearer version of what I said] Another reason why having an origin/url is important: you had a slide with "walled garden" as a downside of the current form of miniapps. As long as these apps can't be found and indexed in an open place, I don't see how you can solve the walled garden issue. Origin is a way to maintain an open system. It would be good to get it back even if today's mini-apps don't have such concept. Or perhaps you have other idea[CUT] 06:26:09 … Chris Lilley, Xiaqian, Fuqiao can help move the discussion forward. 06:26:14 Topic: Next steps 06:26:38 q+ 06:26:48 Angel: Chinese IG has some clear ideas but think there are some details missing. Good time to tell us if you have conerns or suggestions. We know there are some areas we can collaboreate with that overlap. 06:27:04 q? 06:27:13 look at the plan we have, and see if you have comments. And companies with similar plans, please collaborate. 06:27:21 q? 06:27:22 q+ 06:27:22 s/look/… look 06:27:32 … are there other options you can think of? 06:27:34 ack ch 06:27:43 q+ 06:28:03 s/Xiaqian/Xiaoqian/ 06:28:36 CL: the question about maturity. There is vast deployment - what should happen has been prototyped. This is not unusual stating point for a WG to get towards interoperability, so long as there is willingness to change implementation, I don't see why we should not start a working grop. 06:28:51 ack torgo 06:29:14 q+ to respond 06:29:23 DA: suggest a CG, and think about what elements can be associated with existing W3C working group items. Manifest is being developed in WebApps, meeting this week. 06:29:55 q? 06:29:58 … there are some others. Would love to see requirements on existing work that map onto what miniapps do 06:30:01 ack j 06:30:26 q? 06:30:47 Mini App Standardization: update and next steps in AC meeting -> https://www.w3.org/2019/09/TPAC/ac-agenda.html#thursday 06:31:01 ZHR: Appreciate suggestions. Some people have talked offline too. Tomorrow there will be a session at AC. For us if the goal is to resolve the interoperability, and meet cinese requirements, we don't need to come to W3C. 06:31:17 … W3C is global, needs to include Chinese market too. 06:31:57 … A CG does not define standards. If you can satisfy existing requirements that would be great. Will think about whether we want a CG or WG… 06:32:17 q? 06:32:19 Angel: Thank you all for comments and suggestions 06:32:33 q- chr 06:32:35 KenjiBaheux has joined #miniapp 06:32:39 rrsagent, draft minutes 06:32:39 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-miniapp-minutes.html wseltzer 06:32:41 reillyg has left #miniapp 06:32:46 RRSAgent, make log public 06:32:56 [+1 to CL, think a WG makes sense assuming there is willingness to change implementation to match a new spec (and/or other existing ones)] 06:33:10 rrsagent, draft minutes 06:33:10 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-miniapp-minutes.html chaals 06:33:31 s/max:/LiuDaPeng: 06:34:00 chair: An Qi Li - Angel 06:34:08 rrsagent, draft minutes 06:34:08 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-miniapp-minutes.html chaals 06:35:00 Meeting: MiniApps - standardisation 06:35:02 whsieh has joined #miniapp 06:35:11 s/stadard/standard 06:35:16 rrsagent, draft minutes 06:35:16 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-miniapp-minutes.html chaals 06:35:21 alex_liu has joined #miniapp 06:36:13 jv has joined #miniapp 06:39:07 xfq has joined #miniapp 06:40:55 jv has joined #miniapp 06:47:47 chaals has joined #miniapp 06:48:15 chaals1 has joined #miniapp 06:59:12 plh has joined #miniapp 07:02:02 xueyuan has joined #miniapp 07:11:59 chaals has joined #miniapp 07:12:18 Chunming has joined #miniapp 07:17:20 xueyuan_ has joined #miniapp 07:26:38 xfq has joined #miniapp 07:27:09 xfq has left #miniapp 07:27:41 chaals has joined #miniapp 07:30:22 chaals1 has joined #miniapp 07:31:27 jv has joined #miniapp 07:31:52 jv has left #miniapp 07:31:55 torgo has joined #miniapp 07:32:11 ChrisLi13 has joined #miniapp 07:33:03 mweksler has joined #miniapp 07:33:05 jsbell has left #miniapp 07:33:44 KenjiBaheux has joined #miniapp 07:34:12 plh has joined #miniapp 07:36:51 KenjiBaheux has joined #miniapp 07:37:44 xiaoqian has joined #miniapp 07:39:24 jc has joined #miniapp 07:45:43 mweksler has joined #miniapp 07:46:50 KenjiBaheux has joined #miniapp 07:47:54 michelweksler has joined #miniapp 07:50:44 michelweksler has joined #miniapp 08:00:16 mweksler has joined #miniapp 08:00:46 Chunming has joined #miniapp 08:01:25 KenjiBaheux has joined #miniapp 08:06:09 torgo has joined #miniapp 08:08:10 KenjiBaheux has joined #miniapp 08:11:48 ChrisLilley has joined #miniapp 08:17:44 diervo_ has joined #miniapp 08:23:04 diervo has joined #miniapp 08:26:22 present+ Qingqian, Zhiqiang, Zhixing, Dapeng, Anqing, Juejia 08:26:29 rrsagent, make minutes 08:26:29 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-miniapp-minutes.html xueyuan 08:30:38 xueyuan_ has joined #miniapp 08:33:33 xiaoqian has joined #miniapp 08:35:47 jc has joined #miniapp 08:38:37 xueyuan_ has joined #miniapp 08:39:51 mweksler has joined #miniapp 08:40:17 jc has joined #miniapp 08:40:38 jc has joined #miniapp 08:51:14 jc has joined #miniapp 08:52:27 Judy has joined #miniapp 08:54:25 torgo has joined #miniapp 08:55:42 mweksler has joined #miniapp 09:04:27 jc has joined #miniapp 09:09:15 Chunming has joined #miniapp 09:13:37 torgo has left #miniapp 09:17:47 xueyuan has joined #miniapp 09:18:12 mnot has joined #miniapp 09:20:17 jc has joined #miniapp 09:21:59 jc has joined #miniapp 09:22:15 ChrisLi18 has joined #miniapp 09:26:38 mweksler has joined #miniapp 09:27:31 hyojin has left #miniapp 09:28:50 jc has joined #miniapp 09:29:03 ChrisLilley has joined #miniapp 09:38:37 alex_liu has joined #miniapp 09:43:01 ChrisLilley has joined #miniapp 10:10:51 Guest19 has joined #miniapp 10:14:07 mweksler has joined #miniapp 10:35:22 alex_liu has joined #miniapp 12:13:03 ChrisLilley has joined #miniapp 12:13:43 ChrisLi63 has joined #miniapp 12:15:39