<scribe> ScribeNick: jorydotcom
kadir: Introduces the MDN product
advisory board
... they helped put this together as an effort of the MDN not
just Mozilla
... recap is that we published this in July to reach a broad
audience of developere and designers to understand their
needs
... the goal is to do this annually
... we want to understand and prioritize painpoints over
time
... 29 queations, localized into 8 languages. fielded for 4
weeks. 76k responses
... more than 28k people completed the survey from 173
countries
<dom> [thinking aloud - since survey will be run in northern Spring next year, we can expect an even broader set of participants compared to mid-Summer (northern)]
kadir: 10k hours of developer time to complete
<JohnJansen> please paste a link to the report
kadir: the goal of the session is
to walk through the survey and show you some results that we
have
... and understand what you want to see for segmentation
... what can we do differently for the next version of the
survey
Dom_for_JohnJansen Can we share the report?
kadir: not now, hope to have full public report published by end of October beginning of November
<zghadyali> I have a question. Will the published report include the raw data of the responses to the survey?
kadir: we had 29 questions, 2 were free form
<dom> qq+ zghadyali
kadir: they were aboutu
paintpoints and what they would like to be able to do
... we got more than 12k responses in 9 languages so we need
more time to analyze, taht will be part of the full report
zghadyali: will the report be published with teh raw data?
kadir: we will only be able to do
a pdf report for budget reasons, hope to have budget for next
time
... this is the first iteration, we really just wanted to get
it out so we can take into account
tobie: was it a legal problem?
kadir: no it was just technical. We didn't have the budget. so we didn't even ask legally. hope to have that next year
tobie: I think it would be valuable to consider next and last year's data if you can
kadir: makes sense!
karl: I read the survey
<zcorpan> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/11jMfXWxw9bBZeCG8PYSoWsQZnRd2OBGSKSEwSF8nd0Q/edit#gid=0 - please add your IRC nicks here to help the scribe
karl: I don't remember if there was a distinction between front and backend devs
<Zakim> karl, you wanted to ask about backend development survey (http, server-side framework).
karl: did we focus enough on the questions/needs of backend devs?
kadir: maybe to answer this lets
look at who we surveyd
... we wanted to talk to people who actually code
... that was the first disqualifying question. a pure vis
designer wouldn't qualify
... we do ask people about this later
Boaz: a format could be that we
go through all of these now and have a group discussion
after?
... or the 5-10 key ones
<Travis> +1 let's see the data!!
jgraham: keep talking and save questions for the end
kadir: I wanted to walk quickly
through this and do some live segmentations, we might be able
to do that for some of the segments that I have
pre-prepped
... the first one is the qualifying question: what do people do
when they say they code/ code and design
... how many hours to do you spend writing code? 80% spend more
than 20 hours a week
... next one is the type of dev you are. How do you ask whether
you are a fe dev, backend, fullstack? there aren't shared
established terms
... it was a difficult disctintion to make, pilot testers got
it but it may not have been clear in other langs
... 10% said they were backend developers. the main channel we
sent this out in is MDN, so it makes sense we may not have
reached a backend community
iank_: is there a difference between vis design and code design
kadir: we hadn't thought about
that
... we saw roughly equally proportions JS/HTML/CSS
... 50% had less than 2 years experience
... we think because of MDN's reach and the reach of the PAB we
think this is pretty representative
... this is something to keep in mind
<dom> [there may be a bias in that MDN attracts beginners more / more often than experienced people]
kadir: sometimes people don't know that browsers have versions,
<CharlesHall> so there is zero excuse for that experience demographic to not be aware of accessibility. 20+ years of a spec for it.
kadir: keep this data in mind,
about half have less than 2 years and 2/3rds have less than
5
... something went wrong on this one (gender demo slide)
... Gender question, we did not get a good representation 86%
of respondents identified as male. We think in the Us it should
be 20% at least
... for next year we want to do better and to compensate for
this bias.
... the needs and painpoints might look different. We hope to
have budget to address this next year
... what country do you live in? This is roughly what we
expected with the expecption of china
... it's hard to parse out to know if we got more participation
because we localized into those languages.
... this is not just US or EU, we really wanted diverse
representation
dom: can people talk/tweet about this?
kadir: yes, recall that this is
raw data and is just an indication of where things are
going
... so when you segment this you partially get different
results
... we already talked about the first 5 and how interop is a
big problem
iank_: what are the plans for next year to understand the interop problems more?
kadir: once we have analyzed the
free form results we will see if there are additional
items
... interop is at the top of the list, let's look at the
bottom
... making sites accessible. This doesn't mean it's not a
problem, it may mean that they don't focus on it or aware of
the issues
... they may not know what they don't know
... that's why we do the interviews
... keeping up with changes to the web platform, that was also
a surprise. It's evidently not a big isssue
... but compared to keeping up with the tools and frameworks,
that was a bigger issue
iank_: do you find the interop quesiton when you look at other countries?
joe: I wonder if people not keeping up with the platforms is related to not knowing that browsers have versions
zcorpan: most of the respondents are pretty new. If you've been a web dev for 1-5 years you may not id it as a problem
kadir: experience level is
something that we segmented by
... (shares slides)
... it's the same thing. Interop is the biggest issue whether
you just started or have been on for 10 years
... also keeping up with the frameworks and tools
jgraham: arguably there's a degneracy between these because a lot of devs use frameworks to leverage the web platform
kadir: how many people use these
vs. abstract that away? the platform underneath may not be of
concern to you?
... we asked them how much do you think this represents your
painpoints. 72% agree or strongly agree that this was a good
representation
... it makes us happy that this was a good representation for
most people. that's why we had the free form to get the 8% who
didn't agree
... a lot of it was related to non-tech issues like office
politics, which may well top the list if we had added it
... but this was not the purpose on the survey
... how would you rate your overall satisfaction? 77% are
satisfid or very satisfied. we are surprised because people
like complaining!
... most people are actually quite happy
... we asked abotu whether they were doing this for personal or
professional. most of them are doing it for their job
... almost half the participants had a cs or engineering
degree
... almost everyone also added that they were self-taught
... we didn't expect that
... what team structure best describes your situation? d you
work alone or with others?
... 66% said they work in an org with other devs, 10% said they
are the sole dev in an org
... which platforms do you target? this was another
surprise
... 95% target the desktop, only 62% target the mobile web?
iank_ is this skewed for the US?
kadir: no
cbiesinger: did you ask about enterprise vs. the consumer web?
kadir: no
... what browsers do you support?
... almost everyone came out with I hate IE 11
... but there's more to it. the surprising thing is that safari
is supported mroe than safarie IOS which is dispropotionate to
marketshare
... follow up to that was which browswers give you the biggest
issues? Chrome is at the top of the list, but keep in mind most
people aren't supporting the other browsers
... the chart is difficult to read,
... when IE was ranked, it was the biggest issue. whereas with
chrome it was ranked but gave the least problems
... if people have to support safari IOS it is a bigger
issue
... the browser people primarily use for development is chrome,
but we were surprised by chrome for andriod so we think there
may be an issue with this question
... so we look into whether this is understood
iank_ this doesn't surprise us
Kadir: we were looking to understand what dev tools people have, this may have been unclear in terms of how we phrased the question
<CharlesHall> ? will there be opportunity to provide feedback on the wording of the questions and research process for 2020?
Kadir: which browsers do you test
in?
... chrome, firefox, edge
... Installable web applications. this is about PWAs. when we
asked about PWAs people didn't really know what it means
... so we asked a question with a definitaion about PWAs, and
with that definition, 29% said yes, and 10% said IDK
... when a new tech becomes available what are your barriers
for adoption. It's usually documentation but this was interop
by far
gsnedders could people be interpretting outdated browsers / legacy browsers into this question?
kadir: maybe, we should look into that
gsnedders: is tehre any support of implenation differences?
kadir: we should look into
that
... we asked people which languages they use, this is not a
surprise. WASM was at 3%. this queastion was asked so we could
segment other questions by it
Travis: what's the answer?
kadir: i don't know. this is a
very early preview of thedataset
... we asked where are you using JS? almost no one is using it
on the server exclusively?
... what are the biggest painpoints in JS development? feature
adoption and performance
... people don't really differentiate between the core lang and
the APIS, and it changes over time
... next issue there are two things taht stand out. performance
is not surprising.
... with HTML, there were no pain points! second one is lack of
browser adoption and inability to customize components. THere
was a difference in China
... in CSS it wasn't interop, it was challenges with
layout.
<tantek> also surprised to see no pain points here
<karl> [probably the webdevs having difficulties to implement what the designers ask them to do.]
<tantek> [yeah]
kadir: WASM it was lack of debugging/tooling
<dontcallmeDOM> zcorpan, close the queue
kadir: do you get to choose the tech you use? 2/3rds to get to choose what they use. Most people do get to choose. Devs are the right people to target
Boaz conversation of use cases. There's active work weher these insights are going to be useful
scribe: one of our action items
was to be able to give efeedback on this next year so we can
help compute priority
... excited to collaborate with you on this
<Zakim> tobie, you wanted to ask whether data about framework usage was collected?
kadir: offer stands if you need a cut of this data so you can get if you need
tobie: it would be interesting to have data about specific JS and CSS frameworks? what frameworks and whether they are or not
kadir: shows the next sli ewith
some of that data
... for next year we want to understand the buckets better so
we can ask better questions
JohnJansen: the PWA data that you saw is verified by our crawler. It seems to match what you do. SW debugging is a bad experience. A future question could be more nuanced
kadir: abso;luutely
jgraham: you were surprosed about
the testing results. I think it depends what youmean by
testing. Pulling apart those things would be better. Then you
can pull out which tools you are using
... I think for this kind of question it might be more
interesting, if you say you're using CI which tool are you
using
kadir: very true
... this is very helpful, i fyou think of additional questions,
go to your PAB person or come talk to me or email me at
atopal@mozilla.org
... any recommendations for the next iterations are welcome,
and your feedback as well
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.154 of Date: 2018/09/25 16:35:56 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: Irssi_ISO8601_Log_Text_Format (score 1.00) Succeeded: s/??/Dom_for_JohnJansen/ Succeeded: s/be/backend/ Succeeded: s/???/iank_/ Succeeded: s/Chinca/china/ Succeeded: s/iank_/iank_:/ Succeeded: s/actua;ly/actually/ Succeeded: s/???/cbiesinger/ Succeeded: s/Chinca/China/ Present: tantek jorydotcom CharlesHall dom zcorpan cbiesinger Boaz heejin tobie karl JohnJansen Dongwoo Found ScribeNick: jorydotcom Inferring Scribes: jorydotcom WARNING: No "Topic:" lines found. WARNING: No date found! Assuming today. (Hint: Specify the W3C IRC log URL, and the date will be determined from that.) Or specify the date like this: <dbooth> Date: 12 Sep 2002 People with action items: WARNING: No "Topic: ..." lines found! Resulting HTML may have an empty (invalid) <ol>...</ol>. Explanation: "Topic: ..." lines are used to indicate the start of new discussion topics or agenda items, such as: <dbooth> Topic: Review of Amy's report WARNING: IRC log location not specified! (You can ignore this warning if you do not want the generated minutes to contain a link to the original IRC log.)[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]