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01:41:09 <dom> RRSAgent, make log public
01:46:34 <dom> Meeting: Results from MDN Developer Survey
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01:55:28 <tantek> present+
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02:02:11 <jorydotcom> present+
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02:02:33 <CharlesHall> present+
02:02:47 <dom> Present+
02:02:52 <dom> Chair: Kadir Topal
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02:05:12 <jorydotcom> ScribeNick: jorydotcom
02:05:35 <jorydotcom> kadir: Introduces the MDN product advisory board
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02:06:19 <jorydotcom> ...they helped put this together as an effort of the MDN not just Mozilla
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02:06:39 <zcorpan> present+
02:06:43 <cbiesinger> present+
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02:06:45 <Boaz> present+
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02:07:14 <jorydotcom> ...recap is that we published this in July to reach a broad audience of developere and designers to understand their needs
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02:07:21 <jorydotcom> ...the goal is to do this annually
02:07:33 <zcorpan> RRSAgent, make minutes
02:07:33 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-mdn-minutes.html zcorpan
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02:07:38 <jorydotcom> ...we want to understand and prioritize painpoints over time
02:08:23 <jorydotcom> ... 29 queations, localized into 8 languages. fielded for 4 weeks. 76k responses
02:08:30 <karl> RRSAgent, set logs public-visible
02:08:46 <jorydotcom> ...more than 28k people completed the survey from 173 countries
02:08:55 <dom> [thinking aloud - since survey will be run in northern Spring next year, we can expect an even broader set of participants compared to mid-Summer (northern)]
02:09:10 <zcorpan> RRSAgent, make logs world-visible
02:09:11 <jorydotcom> ... 10k hours of developer time to complete
02:09:25 <tobie> present+
02:09:34 <karl> present+
02:09:36 <JohnJansen> please paste a link to the report
02:09:42 <JohnJansen> present+
02:09:45 <jorydotcom> ... the goal of the session is to walk through the survey and show you some results that we have
02:09:59 <jorydotcom> ... and understand what you want to see for segmentation
02:10:03 <Dongwoo> present+
02:10:18 <jorydotcom> ... what can we do differently for the next version of the survey
02:10:23 <jorydotcom> ?? Can we share the report?
02:10:42 <dom> s/??/Dom_for_JohnJansen/
02:10:49 <jorydotcom> kadir: not now, hope to have full public report published by end of October beginning of November
02:11:14 <zghadyali> I have a question. Will the published report include the raw data of the responses to the survey?
02:11:17 <zcorpan> RRSAgent, make minutes
02:11:17 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-mdn-minutes.html zcorpan
02:11:18 <jorydotcom> ... we had 29 questions, 2 were free form
02:11:21 <dom> qq+ zghadyali
02:11:27 <dom> q+ zghadyali
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02:11:37 <jorydotcom> ... they were aboutu paintpoints and what they would like to be able to do
02:12:01 <jorydotcom> ... we got more than 12k responses in 9 languages so we need more time to analyze, taht will be part of the full report
02:12:18 <jorydotcom> zghadyali: will the report be published with teh raw data?
02:12:37 <JohnJansen> q?
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02:12:44 <jorydotcom> kadir: we will only be able to do a pdf report for budget reasons, hope to have budget for next time
02:12:45 <dom> ack Zakim
02:12:53 <dom> ack zghadyali
02:13:19 <jorydotcom> ... this is the first iteration, we really just wanted to get it out so we can take into account
02:13:27 <jorydotcom> tobie: was it a legal problem?
02:13:54 <jorydotcom> kadir: no it was just technical. We didn't have the budget. so we didn't even ask legally. hope to have that next year
02:14:17 <karl> q+ to ask about backend development survey (http, server-side framework).
02:14:18 <jorydotcom> tobie: I think it would be valuable to consider next and last year's data if you can
02:14:18 <jorydotcom> kadir: makes sense!
02:14:38 <jorydotcom> karl: I read the survey
02:14:55 <zcorpan> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/11jMfXWxw9bBZeCG8PYSoWsQZnRd2OBGSKSEwSF8nd0Q/edit#gid=0 - please add your IRC nicks here to help the scribe
02:15:06 <jorydotcom> ... I don't remember if there was a distinction between front and backend devs
02:15:09 <Boaz> q?
02:15:16 <Boaz> q+
02:15:26 <dom> ack karl
02:15:26 <Zakim> karl, you wanted to ask about backend development survey (http, server-side framework).
02:15:36 <jorydotcom> ...did we focus enough on the questions/needs of backend devs?
02:15:53 <jorydotcom> kadir: maybe to answer this lets look at who we surveyd
02:16:18 <jorydotcom> ...we wanted to talk to people who actually code
02:16:27 <jorydotcom> ... that was the first disqualifying question. a pure vis designer wouldn't qualify
02:16:41 <jorydotcom> ...we do ask people about this later
02:16:59 <jorydotcom> Boaz : a format could be that we go through all of these now and have a group discussion after?
02:17:13 <jorydotcom> ... or the 5-10 key ones
02:17:22 <Travis> +1 let's see the data!!
02:17:33 <jorydotcom> jgraham: keep talking and save questions for the end
02:18:18 <jorydotcom> kadir: I wanted to walk quickly through this and do some live segmentations, we might be able to do that for some of the segments that I have pre-prepped
02:18:32 <jorydotcom> ...the first one is the qualifying question: what do people do when they say they code/ code and design
02:19:04 <jorydotcom> ... how many hours to do you spend writing code? 80% spend more than 20 hours a week
02:19:41 <jorydotcom> ... next one is the type of dev you are. How do you ask whether you are a fe dev, backend, fullstack? there aren't shared established terms
02:20:19 <jorydotcom> ... it was a difficult disctintion to make, pilot testers got it but it may not have been clear in other langs
02:20:52 <jorydotcom> ...10% said they were backend developers. the main channel we sent this out in is MDN, so it makes sense we may not have reached a be community
02:20:59 <jorydotcom> s/be/backend
02:21:54 <jorydotcom> ???: is there a difference between vis design and code design
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02:22:00 <jorydotcom> kadir: we hadn't thought about that
02:22:04 <zcorpan> s/???/iank_/
02:22:24 <jorydotcom> ... we saw roughly equally proportions JS/HTML/CSS
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02:22:38 <jorydotcom> ...50% had less than 2 years experience
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02:23:03 <jorydotcom> ... we think because of MDN's reach and the reach of the PAB we think this is pretty representative
02:23:11 <jorydotcom> ...this is something to keep in mind
02:23:41 <dom> [there may be a bias in that MDN attracts beginners more / more often than experienced people]
02:23:41 <jorydotcom> ...sometimes people don't know that browsers have versions,
02:24:04 <CharlesHall> so there is zero excuse for that experience demographic to not be aware of accessibility. 20+ years of a spec for it.
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02:24:19 <jorydotcom> ... keep this data in mind, about half have less than 2 years and 2/3rds have less than 5
02:24:35 <jorydotcom> ... something went wrong on this one (gender demo slide)
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02:27:05 <jorydotcom> ...Gender question, we did not get a good representation 86% of respondents identified as male. We think in the Us it should be 20% at least
02:27:09 <karl> RRSAgent, make minutes
02:27:09 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-mdn-minutes.html karl
02:27:21 <jorydotcom> ... for next year we want to do better and to compensate for this bias.
02:27:44 <jorydotcom> ... the needs and painpoints might look different. We hope to have budget to address this next year
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02:28:14 <dontcallmeDOM> RRSAgent, draft minutes
02:28:14 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-mdn-minutes.html dontcallmeDOM
02:28:19 <jorydotcom> ... what country do you live in? This is roughly what we expected with the expecption of Chinca
02:28:26 <jorydotcom> s/Chinca/china
02:28:53 <jorydotcom> ... it's hard to parse out to know if we got more participation because we localized into those languages.
02:29:09 <jorydotcom> ... this is not just US or EU, we really wanted diverse representation
02:30:01 <jorydotcom> dom: can people talk/tweet about this?
02:30:21 <jorydotcom> kadir: yes, recall that this is raw data and is just an indication of where things are going
02:30:34 <jorydotcom> ... so when you segment this you partially get different results
02:30:54 <jorydotcom> ... we already talked about the first 5 and how interop is a big problem
02:31:13 <jorydotcom> iank_  what are the plans for next year to understand the interop problems more?
02:31:27 <dontcallmeDOM> s/iank_/iank_:/
02:31:39 <jorydotcom> kadir: once we have analyzed the free form results we will see if there are additional items
02:31:50 <jorydotcom> ...interop is at the top of the list, let's look at the bottom
02:32:33 <jorydotcom> ... making sites accessible. This doesn't mean it's not a problem, it may mean that they don't focus on it or aware of the issues
02:32:43 <jorydotcom> ... they may not know what they don't know
02:32:53 <jorydotcom> ... that's why we do the interviews
02:33:16 <jorydotcom> ... keeping up with changes to the web platform, that was also a surprise. It's evidently not a big isssue
02:33:34 <jorydotcom> ...but compared to keeping up with the tools and frameworks, that was a bigger issue
02:33:56 <jorydotcom> iank_ : do you find the interop quesiton when you look at other countries?
02:34:32 <jorydotcom> joe: I wonder if people not keeping up with the platforms is related to not knowing that browsers have versions
02:34:58 <jorydotcom> zcorpan: most of the respondents are pretty new. If you've been a web dev for 1-5 years you may not id it as a problem
02:35:11 <jorydotcom> kadir: experience level is something that we segmented by
02:35:31 <jorydotcom> ...(shares slides)
02:35:51 <jorydotcom> ... it's the same thing. Interop is the biggest issue whether you just started or have been on for 10 years
02:36:01 <jorydotcom> ... also keeping up with the frameworks and tools
02:36:42 <jorydotcom> jgraham: arguably there's a degneracy between these because a lot of devs use frameworks to leverage the web platform
02:37:12 <jorydotcom> kadir: how many people use these vs. abstract that away? the platform underneath may not be of concern to you?
02:38:01 <tobie> q+ did you collect data about framework usage?
02:38:03 <jorydotcom> ... we asked them how much do you think this represents your painpoints. 72% agree or strongly agree that this was a good representation
02:38:38 <jorydotcom> ... it makes us happy that this was a good representation for most people. that's why we had the free form to get the 8% who didn't agree
02:38:45 <tobie> q+ to ask whether data about framework usage was collected?
02:39:01 <jorydotcom> ... a lot of it was related to non-tech issues like office politics, which may well top the list if we had added it
02:39:13 <jorydotcom> ... but this was not the purpose on the survey
02:39:48 <jorydotcom> ... how would you rate your overall satisfaction? 77% are satisfid or very satisfied. we are surprised because people like complaining!
02:39:57 <jorydotcom> ... most people are actua;ly quite happy
02:40:16 <zcorpan> s/actua;ly/actually/
02:40:19 <jorydotcom> ... we asked abotu whether they were doing this for personal or professional. most of them are doing it for their job
02:40:31 <jorydotcom> ... almost half the participants had a cs or engineering degree
02:40:48 <jorydotcom> ... almost everyone also added that they were self-taught
02:41:00 <jorydotcom> ... we didn't expect that
02:41:18 <jorydotcom> ...what team structure best describes your situation? d you work alone or with others?
02:41:44 <jorydotcom> ...66% said they work in an org with other devs, 10% said they are the sole dev in an org
02:41:57 <jorydotcom> ... which platforms do you target? this was another surprise
02:42:19 <jorydotcom> ... 95% target the desktop, only 62% target the mobile web?
02:42:26 <jorydotcom> iank_ is this skewed for the US?
02:42:31 <jorydotcom> kadir: no
02:42:49 <jorydotcom> ???: did you ask about enterprise vs. the consumer web?
02:42:52 <jorydotcom> kadir: no
02:43:13 <jorydotcom> ... what browsers do you support?
02:43:21 <jorydotcom> ... almost everyone came out with I hate IE 11
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02:44:16 <zcorpan> s/???/cbiesinger/
02:44:19 <jorydotcom> ... but there's more to it. the surprising thing is that safari is supported mroe than safarie IOS which is dispropotionate to marketshare
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02:45:00 <jorydotcom> ... follow up to that was which browswers give you the biggest issues? Chrome is at the top of the list, but keep in mind most people aren't supporting the other browsers
02:45:28 <jorydotcom> ... the chart is difficult to read,
02:45:57 <jorydotcom> ...when IE was ranked, it was the biggest issue. whereas with chrome it was ranked but gave the least problems
02:46:31 <jorydotcom> ... if people have to support safari IOS it is a bigger issue
02:47:10 <jorydotcom> ... the browser people primarily use for development is chrome, but we were surprised by chrome for andriod so we think there may be an issue with this question
02:47:29 <jorydotcom> ... so we look into whether this is understood
02:47:48 <jorydotcom> iank_ this doesn't surprise us
02:48:23 <jorydotcom> Kadir: we were looking to understand what dev tools people have, this may have been unclear in terms of how we phrased the question
02:48:31 <CharlesHall> ? will there be opportunity to provide feedback on the wording of the questions and research process for 2020?
02:48:37 <jorydotcom> ... which browsers do you test in?
02:49:00 <jorydotcom> ... chrome, firefox, edge
02:49:24 <jorydotcom> ... Installable web applications. this is about PWAs. when we asked about PWAs people didn't really know what it means
02:49:51 <jorydotcom> ... so we asked a question with a definitaion about PWAs, and with that definition, 29% said yes, and 10% said IDK
02:50:39 <jorydotcom> ... when a new tech becomes available what are your barriers for adoption. It's usually documentation but this was interop by far
02:51:22 <jorydotcom> gsnedders could people be interpretting outdated browsers / legacy browsers into this question?
02:51:30 <jorydotcom> kadir: maybe, we should look into that
02:51:40 <Boaz> q?
02:51:43 <Boaz> q+
02:51:50 <jorydotcom> gsnedders: is tehre any support of implenation differences?
02:51:55 <jorydotcom> kadir: we should look into that
02:51:59 <JohnJansen> q+
02:52:35 <jorydotcom> ... we asked people which languages they use, this is not a surprise. WASM was at 3%. this queastion was asked so we could segment other questions by it
02:52:46 <jorydotcom> Travis : what's the answer?
02:53:01 <jorydotcom> kadir: i don't know.  this is a very early preview of thedataset
02:53:28 <jorydotcom> ... we asked where are you using JS? almost no one is using it on the server exclusively?
02:53:46 <jorydotcom> ... what are the biggest painpoints in JS development? feature adoption and performance
02:54:19 <jorydotcom> ... people don't really differentiate between the core lang and the APIS, and it changes over time
02:54:38 <tantek> q?
02:55:06 <jorydotcom> ... next issue there are two things taht stand out. performance is not surprising.
02:55:40 <jorydotcom> ... with HTML, there were no pain points! second one is lack of browser adoption and inability to customize components. THere was a difference in Chinca
02:55:49 <jorydotcom> s/Chinca/China
02:56:19 <jorydotcom> ... in CSS it wasn't interop, it was challenges with layout.
02:56:26 <jgraham> q+
02:56:42 <tantek> also surprised to see no pain points here
02:56:44 <karl> [probably the webdevs having difficulties to implement what the designers ask them to do.]
02:56:52 <tantek> [yeah]
02:56:55 <jorydotcom> ... WASM it was lack of debugging/tooling
02:57:27 <dontcallmeDOM> zcorpan, close the queue
02:57:34 <zcorpan> Zakim, close the queue
02:57:34 <Zakim> ok, zcorpan, the speaker queue is closed
02:57:35 <dontcallmeDOM> Zakim, close the queue
02:57:35 <Zakim> ok, dontcallmeDOM, the speaker queue is closed
02:57:51 <jorydotcom> ... do you get to choose the tech you use? 2/3rds to get to choose what they use. Most people do get to choose. Devs are the right people to target
02:57:51 <dontcallmeDOM> q?
02:57:56 <dontcallmeDOM> ack Boaz
02:58:19 <jorydotcom> Boaz conversation of use cases. There's active work weher these insights are going to be useful
02:58:37 <jorydotcom> ... one of our action items was to be able to give efeedback on this next year so we can help compute priority
02:58:43 <jorydotcom> ... excited to collaborate with you on this
02:58:54 <dontcallmeDOM> ack tobie
02:58:54 <Zakim> tobie, you wanted to ask whether data about framework usage was collected?
02:58:58 <jorydotcom> kadir: offer stands if you need a cut of this data so you can get if you need
02:59:24 <jorydotcom> tobie : it would be interesting to have data about specific JS and CSS frameworks? what frameworks and whether they are or not
02:59:40 <jorydotcom> kadir: shows the next sli ewith some of that data
02:59:55 <dontcallmeDOM> ack JohnJansen
03:00:19 <jorydotcom> ... for next year we want to understand the buckets better so we can ask better questions
03:00:47 <jorydotcom> JohnJansen : the PWA data that you saw is verified by our crawler. It seems to match what you do. SW debugging is a bad experience. A future question could be more nuanced
03:00:51 <dontcallmeDOM> ack jgraham
03:00:54 <jorydotcom> kadir: abso;luutely
03:01:37 <jorydotcom> jgraham: you were surprosed about the testing results. I think it depends what youmean by testing. Pulling apart those things would be better. Then you can pull out which tools you are using
03:02:02 <jorydotcom> ... I think for this kind of question it might be more interesting, if you say you're using CI which tool are you using
03:02:19 <jorydotcom> kadir: very true
03:02:39 <jorydotcom> ... this is very helpful, i fyou think of additional questions, go to your PAB person or come talk to me or email me at atopal@mozilla.org
03:02:59 <jorydotcom> ... any recommendations for the next iterations are welcome, and your feedback as well
03:03:06 <dontcallmeDOM> RRSAgent, draft minutes
03:03:06 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-mdn-minutes.html dontcallmeDOM
03:03:23 <gsnedders> RRSAgent, make minutes public
03:03:23 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes public', gsnedders.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
03:03:45 <gsnedders> RRSAgent, make logs public
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04:22:40 <tantek> RRSAgent, make logs public
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04:34:30 <JohnJansen> present+
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05:39:06 <tantek> RRSAgent, pointer?
05:39:06 <RRSAgent> See https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-mdn-irc#T05-39-06
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