See also: slides
<scribe> scribenick: dauwhe
<scribe> Meeting: TPAC Breakout on JLREQ
nmccully: welcome
... my goal is to introduce JLREQ
... and talk about thoughts about improving JLREQ
... including issues about the web, but not only the web
... I've been workinng at Adobe for 21 years
... I wrote the Japanese composition engine in InDesign
... and I'm interested in improving text composition across the
creative suite
... and help bring those improvements to everyone via CSSWG,
etc
... [ does presentation ]
<r12a> jlreq links: https://github.com/w3c/jlreq/ (scroll down)
<fantasai> Major groups involved in JLREQ: JAGAT, APL, IDPF (now W3C), JEPA, EBPA
<myles> http://www.ebpaj.jp/images/kumihan-en.pdf
<myles> http://www.ebpaj.jp/images/youbou.pdf
<myles> https://www.w3.org/Submission/2017/SUBM-CSJTUWT-20170102/jlreq-analysis.html
florian: I was part of making
this doc; what this adds to the other docs is an analysis of
whether we have a spec, and/or an implementation
... it's somewhat subjective
... a gap analysis was useful
... what should we focus on?
nmccully: there are a lot of orgs
that are trying to codify their requirements, with many
competing requirements
... it's interesting that things like ruby are not the highest
priority for the publishing industry
... it's hard to wade through the gap analysis and come up with
next steps
... our goal is for JLREQ to become more clear for
implementers
... and help people make decisions of prioritization
<myles> https://juntajima.github.io/XMLPub_EPUBRSCheck/
nmccully: JAGAT has done a
comparison of e-readers
... and they all have proprietary implementations on top of web
tech
... kindle, kobo, ibooks, MS Edge, etc etc
... and they test various features across platforms--andriod,
iOS, etc
... this is another indication that things are all over the
map
... implementations differ greatly
... the new JLREQ task force will go through the gap analysis
and add more information and background
... to guide the production of new tests
... to see if there are big holes in current
implemtations
... there are new frontiers in layout around spacing,
justification, etc
... we want definitive tests
... there has also been errata for JLREQ
... there are 35 open PRs right now
... and we want to improve the english translation
<myles> https://github.com/w3c/jlreq
nmccully: one comment about JLREQ
is that there is no priority info
... I agree, but efforts to make granular prioritization risk
separating features that should be together
... some features will be difficult or expensive to
develop
... so we want to describe basic features that are still
missing
... and then look at how many people are affected by more
complex features
... to help prioritize
rniwa: it would be great if we could say what percentage of books are affected, what would enable more content
nmccully: the 2nd point is about the tests; we want what JLREQ describes to be possible to produce
myles: css tests?
nmccully: yes
florian: re: implementing
jlreq
... we need to be careful about what we mean; it's meant to be
high-level
... not an exacting description
... jlreq is not meant to be implemented; you derive a spec
from jlreq and implement that
... it's not great if only one person does that work of reading
jlreq and writing the specs
... but the process needs to be JLREQ > incubation of CSS
spec > ? > profit
nmccully: that's a good
point
... there does need an intermediate step of sharing and
describing and specifying
Glenn: that's what we did in
timed text WG
... but that was done independently of CSS
florian: absolutely
... but sometimes people come to APL, and say we're trying to
implement JLREQ, but JLREQ is not a spec
makoto: but that's what people do
florian: there's a missing step
makoto: it provides hints, not answers
nmccully: common books... the
picture I showed earlier, a simple book with lots of things
going on within the lines
... and it's very different than western typography
... a criticism of JLReq is that it doesn't address other types
of books
... like dynamic content, other verticals
... so we don't want to end up with a hybrid of western
typesetting and japanese typesetting
... I find it more readable than JIS X 4051
... it was written with deep experience from the kumihan
operators
... but it's hard to understand by people without a deep
background
... we want to talk about text metrics
... it was not fully understood in jlreq
... these issues come back in issues from customers
... they want the fine control they had in print on the
web
... so the standards should support what these people are
trying to do, and then implementations can improve
... the pre-eminent type expert on the committee left some
things out because there was not a single clear answer
... saying there's no clear answer is better than leaving it
out, and saying why is better yet
... one example of what I'm talking about when I say there's
great experience there is in this para (in preso)
... "spacing around punctuation"
... I couldn't make this para in InDesign due to a bug
... the 2nd line is compressed. 1/3em between something and
something, 1/4 em between other punctuation
... because the last word is 3 syllables
... and that forces fourth line to be slightly extended
... but InDesign can't do compression unless you have a bunch
of characters at line end (???)
... even if I had a keep restriction, it doesn't compress the
line
... the amount of compression being different for these
different clusters of punctuation was because of their
experience
... and other operators would do it differently
... which is why japanese typesetting is highly customized, and
needs to be highly customizable.
... that's what we're dealing with
(too much detail about typesetting to really scribe)
nmccully: there's subtleties to
what operators do, which we haven't been able to teach to
InDesign
... there's a lot of complexity, and a need of flexible
implementations
... there's more than one way to do things
... some of these features might not be needed in all
contexts
<myles> Direct quote: “We want a technology system that allows for the ultimate amount of customization for someone who has specific house rules. That’s not for everybody, and certainly not for most websites. However, making it available in the controls is superior to deciding on a spec that no one needs, and just saying ‘that’s what you get’ because that’s ugly.“
nmccully: JLREQ is not
descriptive enough for an implementor to understand all of the
constraints
... we need more explanation
... the document is good for designers, operators, and testers.
It's very clear and well-organized
... I thought it was targeted at implementors, but it doesn't
quite serve that purpose
... what I'm proposing to the task force is to make much more
clear what are the differences between the conventions on the
web today, and what's described in JLREQ as late 1980s
practice.
... for example, CSS box layout is very different from how
lines are described in the spec
... there's a blog (link????)
<myles> http://densyodamasii.com
nmccully: which goes through
JLREQ in 9 installments
... comparing CSS to what is in JLREQ
... JLREQ should be compatible with this kind of view
rniwa: it would be useful to have documententation on how to achieve each section of JLREQ using today's CSS
r12a: there's a balance
... the original ideas was to make the *REQ docs to be
technology-independent
rniwa: it could be two different docs
koji: I agree with richard
... I'm fine to change the goal
... but the original goal was for spec editors to find those
differences, and write specs
... and for JLREQ to be tech-independent
... they tried to not talk about technology, just to describe
traditional typesetting
nmccully: I know how difficult it is for an implementor to read a tech-independent description without connecting to what they already know
koji: i understand, but I'm
describing the original purpose
... if we rewrite JLREQ to better suit implementors we lose
original purpose
... or we could write separate docs. It's possible
... we need to decide
myles: there's a whole bunch of
requirements. we support some and not others.
... it would good to know, if we support some new CSS property,
how much will it help?
florian: the speed at which
various documents change
... JLREQ is timeless, but CSS evolves more quickly
... so are we talking to spec editors who may be ahead of the
curve?
nmccully: that's true
... we can achieve timeless and helpful description of correct
practice in a way that the reader can figure out what it means
to them
Makoto_: even if we limit our
scope to technolgy-neutral requirement
... but JLREQ is very old-fashioned; they are not for the
future of digital publishing
... so we should eliminate what is not required
... but may want to incorporate dynamic layout, which doesn't
exist in traditional publishing
nmccully: I'm a hoarder :
myles: but it would be really helpful to know what is obsolete
rniwa: it would be sad to spend months on a feature that won't be used
florian: there can be
disagreement about what is old-fashioned
... removing things brings in opinions
... but we need opinions to prioritize
r12a: we have a timeless doc
here, other docs there, we should have connections
... in i18n we have a layout index whoich might help things
connect
nmccully: I frame in my mind
(this is my opinion) an idea for how I organize these levels of
detail
... basic information (types of chars, em-box, lines and
leading)
... the em-box is really important to trad typography
... the conventions on how those metrics were carried forward
are important
... notes for implementors I think we can do without getting
into the weeds
... we are grounded by how fonts are designed, we have origins,
etc
... text might move around when you switch fonts, or switch
layout conventions
... font metrics are important within the line as well as for
line placement
... and this gets into the box model
... implementors need to understand. metrics are in
conflict.
... when the em-box is not honored, the placement of text can
be wrong
... and there are bad metrics
... when the embox is not honored, usability suffers
... (shows illustrator with terrible underline spacing)
... if JLReq is clear about the em-box, we can do better
florian: the css model is
different from the indesign model
... and it biases in favor of avoiding collisions, by making
things ugly
... JLReq talks about kihon-hanmen (????)
... (shows illustration)
... they placed photos in relation to the text blocks
... this depends on characters being square, and lends itself
to grid designs
... we try to do this on the web but we can't make it
responsive
... it's really hard to author this content in a web-like
way
... we need better CSS, better education.
... space is really important (shows example of
advertising)
... we see this always in print and nowhere in the web
... I want the web to be as beautiful as print
... but that's not possible today with the tools we have
... Tsuyokatsu is a designer who designs on paper with exacting
measurements
... his staff then converts into InDesign
... this reinforces my observation of how important the em-box
is
... but that's not how all the implementions work
... thanks. are there any other comments?
r12a: japanese is only one
language
... and in w3c we are working on enabling many other
languages.
... if you're interested talk to me
... there's groups on Indic, mongolian, all sorts of things
nmccully: there are lots of *-req docs
duerst: JLREQ is highly evolved, others not so much
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