01:44:01 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #jlreq
01:44:01 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-jlreq-irc
01:44:09 <dom> RRSAgent, make log public
01:44:21 <dom> Meeting: Japan Language Requirements Task Force: Evolving the JLReq document
01:52:36 <koalie> koalie has joined #jlreq
01:52:41 <koalie> RRSAgent, make logs public
01:52:43 <koalie> koalie has changed the topic to: https://w3c.github.io/tpac-breakouts/sessions.html
01:53:04 <koalie> koalie has left #jlreq
01:57:22 <dom> dom has joined #jlreq
01:57:25 <nmccully> nmccully has joined #jlreq
01:58:44 <shimazu> shimazu has joined #jlreq
01:59:48 <toshiakikoike> toshiakikoike has joined #jlreq
02:00:39 <duga> duga has joined #jlreq
02:00:41 <ricea> ricea has joined #jlreq
02:00:43 <dauwhe> dauwhe has joined #jlreq
02:00:48 <ricea> present+
02:00:51 <MasakazuKitahara> MasakazuKitahara has joined #jlreq
02:00:54 <suzuki> suzuki has joined #jlreq
02:01:01 <koizuka> koizuka has joined #jlreq
02:01:01 <rniwa> rniwa has joined #jlreq
02:01:07 <r12a> r12a has joined #jlreq
02:01:10 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #jlreq
02:01:10 <toshiakikoike> present+
02:01:19 <JunGamo> JunGamo has joined #jlreq
02:01:23 <r12a> present+
02:01:25 <rniwa> present+
02:01:29 <duga> present+
02:01:33 <michael_li> michael_li has joined #jlreq
02:01:35 <MasakazuKitahara> present+
02:01:39 <Bert> Bert has joined #jlreq
02:01:39 <glenn> glenn has joined #jlreq
02:01:42 <koji> koji has joined #jlreq
02:01:42 <dauwhe> scribenick: dauwhe
02:01:44 <stantonm> stantonm has joined #jlreq
02:01:46 <dauwhe> present+
02:01:55 <Bert> present+
02:02:02 <astearns> astearns has joined #jlreq
02:02:07 <dauwhe> Meeting: TPAC Breakout on JLREQ
02:02:09 <JunGamo> present+
02:02:10 <TakeruYamada> TakeruYamada has joined #jlreq
02:02:18 <dauwhe> nmccully: welcome
02:02:24 <duerst> duerst has joined #jlreq
02:02:26 <dauwhe> ... my goal is to introduce JLREQ
02:02:37 <dauwhe> ... and talk about thoughts about improving JLREQ
02:02:47 <DavidClarke> DavidClarke has joined #jlreq
02:02:48 <duerst> present+
02:02:50 <dauwhe> ... including issues about the web, but not only the web
02:02:58 <dauwhe> ... I've been workinng at Adobe for 21 years
02:03:06 <DavidClarke> present+
02:03:12 <dauwhe> ... I wrote the Japanese composition engine in InDesign
02:03:26 <xfq> xfq has joined #jlreq
02:03:34 <dauwhe> ... and I'm interested in improving text composition across the creative suite
02:03:45 <dauwhe> ... and help bring those improvements to everyone via CSSWG, etc
02:04:37 <dauwhe> nmccully: [ does presentation ]
02:04:39 <r12a> jlreq links: https://github.com/w3c/jlreq/ (scroll down)
02:06:12 <myles> myles has joined #jlreq
02:07:06 <nigel> nigel has joined #jlreq
02:07:31 <dauwhe> dauwhe has joined #jlreq
02:07:43 <fantasai> fantasai has joined #jlreq
02:09:03 <skk> skk has joined #jlreq
02:14:06 <fantasai> Major groups involved in JLREQ: JAGAT, APL, IDPF (now W3C), JEPA, EBPA
02:15:58 <myles> http://www.ebpaj.jp/images/kumihan-en.pdf
02:16:11 <TakeruYamada> TakeruYamada has joined #jlreq
02:16:40 <JunGamo> JunGamo has joined #jlreq
02:17:45 <myles> http://www.ebpaj.jp/images/youbou.pdf
02:18:29 <myles> https://www.w3.org/Submission/2017/SUBM-CSJTUWT-20170102/jlreq-analysis.html
02:18:46 <dauwhe> florian: I was part of making this doc; what this adds to the other docs is an analysis of whether we have a spec, and/or an implementation
02:18:52 <dauwhe> ... it's somewhat subjective
02:19:04 <dauwhe> ... a gap analysis was useful
02:19:09 <dauwhe> ... what should we focus on?
02:19:42 <dauwhe> nmccully: there are a lot of orgs that are trying to codify their requirements, with many competing requirements
02:20:05 <dauwhe> ... it's interesting that things like ruby are not the highest priority for the publishing industry
02:20:25 <dauwhe> ... it's hard to wade through the gap analysis and come up with next steps
02:20:41 <dauwhe> ... our goal is for JLREQ to become more clear for implementers
02:20:52 <dauwhe> ... and help people make decisions of prioritization
02:21:36 <myles> https://juntajima.github.io/XMLPub_EPUBRSCheck/
02:21:39 <dauwhe> ... JAGAT has done a comparison of e-readers
02:21:56 <dauwhe> ... and they all have proprietary implementations on top of web tech
02:22:14 <dauwhe> ... kindle, kobo, ibooks, MS Edge, etc etc
02:22:37 <dauwhe> ... and they test various features across platforms--andriod, iOS, etc
02:22:54 <dauwhe> ... this is another indication that things are all over the map
02:23:03 <dauwhe> ... implementations differ greatly
02:23:30 <dauwhe> ... the new JLREQ task force will go through the gap analysis and add more information and background
02:23:37 <dauwhe> ... to guide the production of new tests
02:23:50 <dauwhe> ... to see if there are big holes in current implemtations
02:24:11 <dauwhe> ... there are new frontiers in layout around spacing, justification, etc
02:24:17 <dauwhe> ... we want definitive tests
02:24:28 <dauwhe> ... there has also been errata for JLREQ
02:24:48 <dauwhe> ... there are 35 open PRs right now
02:25:10 <dauwhe> ... and we want to improve the english translation
02:25:40 <myles> https://github.com/w3c/jlreq
02:25:45 <dauwhe> ... one comment about JLREQ is that there is no priority info
02:26:10 <dauwhe> ... I agree, but efforts to make granular prioritization risk separating features that should be together
02:26:37 <dauwhe> ... some features will be difficult or expensive to develop
02:26:51 <dauwhe> ... so we want to describe basic features that are still missing
02:26:54 <dontcallmeDOM> dontcallmeDOM has joined #jlreq
02:27:08 <dauwhe> ... and then look at how many people are affected by more complex features
02:27:15 <dauwhe> ... to help prioritize
02:27:24 <Mizushima> Mizushima has joined #jlreq
02:27:51 <dauwhe> ???: it would be great if we could say what percentage of books are affected, what would enable more content
02:28:12 <astearns> s/???/rniwa/
02:28:15 <dauwhe> nmccully: the 2nd point is about the tests; we want what JLREQ describes to be possible to produce
02:28:22 <dauwhe> myles: css tests?
02:28:24 <dauwhe> nmccully: yes
02:28:39 <dauwhe> florian: re: implementing jlreq
02:28:48 <michael_li> michael_li has joined #jlreq
02:28:50 <dauwhe> ... we need to be careful about what we mean; it's meant to be high-level
02:28:56 <dauwhe> ... not an exacting description
02:29:17 <dauwhe> ... jlreq is not meant to be implemented; you derive a spec from jlreq and implement that
02:29:35 <dauwhe> ... it's not great if only one person does that work of reading jlreq and writing the specs
02:30:02 <dauwhe> ... but the process needs to be JLREQ > incubation of CSS spec > ? > profit
02:30:10 <dauwhe> nmccully: that's a good point
02:30:35 <dauwhe> ... there does need an intermediate step of sharing and describing and specifying
02:30:45 <dauwhe> ???: that's what we did in timed text WG
02:31:04 <dauwhe> ... but that was done independently of CSS
02:31:07 <dauwhe> florian: absolutely
02:31:14 <astearns> s/???/Glenn/
02:31:27 <dauwhe> ... but sometimes people come to APL, and say we're trying to implement JLREQ, but JLREQ is not a spec
02:31:29 <NJ> NJ has joined #jlreq
02:31:34 <dauwhe> makoto: but that's what people do
02:31:39 <dauwhe> florian: there's a missing step
02:31:49 <dauwhe> makoto: it provides hints, not answers
02:32:21 <dauwhe> nmccully: common books... the picture I showed earlier, a simple book with lots of things going on within the lines
02:32:28 <dauwhe> ... and it's very different than western typography
02:32:46 <dauwhe> ... a criticism of JLReq is that it doesn't address other types of books
02:33:04 <dauwhe> ... like dynamic content, other verticals
02:33:25 <dauwhe> ... so we don't want to end up with a hybrid of western typesetting and japanese typesetting
02:33:39 <dauwhe> ... I find it more readable than JIS X 4051
02:33:56 <dauwhe> ... it was written with deep experience from the kumihan operators
02:34:16 <dauwhe> ... but it's hard to understand by people without a deep background
02:34:36 <dauwhe> ... we want to talk about text metrics
02:34:53 <dauwhe> ... it was not fully understood in jlreq
02:35:03 <dauwhe> ... these issues come back in issues from customers
02:35:15 <dauwhe> ... they want the fine control they had in print on the web
02:35:34 <dauwhe> ... so the standards should support what these people are trying to do, and then implementations can improve
02:36:16 <dauwhe> ... the pre-eminent type expert on the committee left some things out because there was not a single clear answer
02:36:31 <dauwhe> ... saying there's no clear answer is better than leaving it out, and saying why is better yet
02:36:57 <dauwhe> ... one example of what I'm talking about when I say there's great experience there is in this para (in preso)
02:37:08 <dauwhe> ... "spacing around punctuation"
02:37:15 <dauwhe> ... I couldn't make this para in InDesign due to a bug
02:37:43 <Makoto_> Makoto_ has joined #jlreq
02:37:48 <dauwhe> ... the 2nd line is compressed. 1/3em between something and something, 1/4 em between other punctuation
02:37:56 <dauwhe> ... because the last word is 3 syllables
02:38:21 <dauwhe> ... and that forces fourth line to be slightly extended
02:38:43 <dauwhe> ... but InDesign can't do compression unless you have a bunch of characters at line end (???)
02:38:53 <dauwhe> ... even if I had a keep restriction, it doesn't compress the line
02:39:15 <dauwhe> ... the amount of compression being different for these different clusters of punctuation was because of their experience
02:39:22 <dauwhe> ... and other operators would do it differently
02:39:43 <dauwhe> ... which is why japanese typesetting is highly customized, and needs to be highly customizable.
02:39:48 <dauwhe> ... that's what we're dealing with
02:40:45 <dauwhe> (too much detail about typesetting to really scribe)
02:42:04 <dauwhe> nmccully: there's subtleties to what operators do, which we haven't been able to teach to InDesign
02:42:25 <dauwhe> ... there's a lot of complexity, and a need of flexible implementations
02:43:01 <dauwhe> ... there's more than one way to do things
02:43:25 <dauwhe> ... some of these features might not be needed in all contexts
02:44:01 <myles> Direct quote: “We want a technology system that allows for the ultimate amount of customization for someone who has specific house rules. That’s not for everybody, and certainly not for most websites. However, making it available in the controls is superior to deciding on a spec that no one needs, and just saying ‘that’s what you get’ because that’s ugly.“
02:44:46 <dauwhe> ... JLREQ is not descriptive enough for an implementor to understand all of the constraints
02:44:55 <dauwhe> ... we need more explanation
02:45:16 <dauwhe> ... the document is good for designers, operators, and testers. It's very clear and well-organized
02:45:38 <dauwhe> ... I thought it was targeted at implementors, but it doesn't quite serve that purpose
02:46:23 <dauwhe> ... what I'm proposing to the task force is to make much more clear what are the differences between the conventions on the web today, and what's described in JLREQ as late 1980s practice.
02:46:40 <dauwhe> ... for example, CSS box layout is very different from how lines are described in the spec
02:46:49 <dauwhe> ... there's a blog (link????)
02:46:57 <myles> http://densyodamasii.com
02:47:03 <dauwhe> ... which goes through JLREQ in 9 installments
02:47:12 <dauwhe> ... comparing CSS to what is in JLREQ
02:47:27 <dauwhe> ... JLREQ should be compatible with this kind of view
02:48:02 <dauwhe> rniwa: it would be useful to have documententation on how to achieve each section of JLREQ using today's CSS
02:48:08 <dauwhe> r12a: there's a balance
02:48:29 <dauwhe> ... the original ideas was to make the *REQ docs to be technology-independent
02:48:38 <dauwhe> rniwa: it could be two different docs
02:48:45 <dauwhe> koji: I agree with richard
02:48:51 <dauwhe> ... I'm fine to change the goal
02:49:05 <dauwhe> ... but the original goal was for spec editors to find those differences, and write specs
02:49:17 <dauwhe> ... and for JLREQ to be tech-independent
02:49:19 <JunGamo> JunGamo has joined #jlreq
02:49:31 <dauwhe> ... they tried to not talk about technology, just to describe traditional typesetting
02:49:56 <dauwhe> nmccully: I know how difficult it is for an implementor to read a tech-independent description without connecting to what they already know
02:50:08 <dauwhe> koji: i understand, but I'm describing the original purpose
02:50:22 <dauwhe> ... if we rewrite JLREQ to better suit implementors we lose original purpose
02:50:32 <dauwhe> ... or we could write separate docs. It's possible
02:50:38 <dauwhe> ... we need to decide
02:50:50 <dauwhe> myles: there's a whole bunch of requirements. we support some and not others.
02:51:07 <dauwhe> ... it would good to know, if we support some new CSS property, how much will it help?
02:51:24 <dauwhe> florian: the speed at which various documents change
02:51:37 <dauwhe> ... JLREEQ is timeless, but CSS evolves more quickly
02:51:49 <dauwhe> s/JLREEQ/JLREQ/
02:52:01 <dauwhe> ... so are we talking to spec editors who may be ahead of the curve?
02:52:11 <dauwhe> nmccully: that's true
02:52:40 <dauwhe> ... we can achieve timeless and helpful description of correct practice in a way that the reader  can figure out what it means to them
02:53:05 <dauwhe> Makoto_: even if we limit our scope to technolgy-neutral requirement
02:53:20 <dauwhe> ... but JLREQ is very old-fashioned; they are not for the future of digital publishing
02:53:27 <dauwhe> ... so we should eliminate what is not required
02:53:45 <dauwhe> ... but may want to incorporate dynamic layout, which doesn't exist in traditional publishing
02:53:49 <dauwhe> nmccully: I'm a hoarder :
02:54:07 <dauwhe> myles: but it would be really helpful to know what is obsolete
02:54:23 <dauwhe> rniwa: it would be sad to spend months on a feature that won't be used
02:54:33 <dauwhe> florian: there can be disagreement about what is old-fashioned
02:54:42 <dauwhe> ... removing things brings in opinions
02:54:55 <dauwhe> ... but we need opinions to prioritize
02:55:10 <dauwhe> r12a: we have a timeless doc here, other docs there, we should have connections
02:55:27 <dauwhe> ... in i18n we have a layout index whoich might help things connect
02:55:50 <dauwhe> nmccully: I frame in my mind (this is my opinion) an idea for how I organize these levels of detail
02:56:25 <dauwhe> ... basic information (types of chars, em-box, lines and leading)
02:56:40 <dauwhe> ... the em-box is really important to trad typography
02:57:10 <dauwhe> ... the conventions on how those metrics were carried forward are important
02:57:24 <dauwhe> ... notes for implementors I think we can do without getting into the weeds
02:57:44 <dauwhe> ... we are grounded by how fonts are designed, we have origins, etc
02:58:07 <dauwhe> ... text might move around when you switch fonts, or switch layout conventions
02:58:25 <dauwhe> ... font metrics are important within the line as well as for line placement
02:58:30 <dauwhe> ... and this gets into the box model
02:58:56 <dauwhe> ... implementors need to understand. metrics are in conflict.
02:59:49 <dauwhe> ... when the em-box is not honored, the placement of text can be wrong
02:59:53 <dauwhe> ... and there are bad metrics
03:00:38 <dauwhe> ... when the embox is not honored, usability suffers
03:00:50 <dauwhe> ... (shows illustrator with terrible underline spacing)
03:01:36 <dauwhe> RRSAgent, draft minutes
03:01:36 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-jlreq-minutes.html dauwhe
03:01:55 <dauwhe> RRSAgent, make logs public
03:01:56 <shimazu> shimazu has joined #jlreq
03:01:57 <xfq> rrsagent, make log public
03:02:29 <dauwhe> ... if JLReq is clear about the em-box, we can do better
03:02:38 <dauwhe> florian: the css model is different from the indesign model
03:02:54 <dauwhe> ... and it biases in favor of avoiding collisions, by making things ugly
03:03:18 <dauwhe> ... JLReq talks about kihon-komen (????)
03:03:27 <dauwhe> ... (shows illustration)
03:03:39 <xfq> s/komen/hanmen/
03:03:43 <dauwhe> ... they placed photos in relation to the text blocks
03:04:10 <dauwhe> ... this depends on characters being square, and lends itself to grid designs
03:04:26 <dauwhe> ... we try to do this on the web but we can't make it responsive
03:04:38 <nigel> nigel has joined #jlreq
03:05:00 <dauwhe> ... it's really hard to author this content in a web-like way
03:05:11 <dauwhe> ... we need better CSS, better education.
03:05:30 <dauwhe> ... space is really important (shows example of advertising)
03:05:42 <dauwhe> ... we see this always in print and nowhere in the web
03:05:52 <dauwhe> ... I want the web to be as beautiful as print
03:06:06 <dauwhe> ... but that's not possible today with the tools we have
03:06:27 <dauwhe> ... ??? is a designer who designs on paper with exacting measurements
03:06:35 <dauwhe> ... his staff then converts into InDesign
03:06:49 <dauwhe> ... this reinforces my observation of how important the em-box is
03:06:59 <dauwhe> ... but that's not how all the implementions work
03:07:09 <r12a> s/???/Tsuyokatsu/
03:07:12 <dauwhe> ... thanks. are there any other comments?
03:07:20 <dauwhe> r12a: japanese is only one language
03:07:38 <dauwhe> ... and in w3c we are working on enabling many other languages.
03:07:44 <dauwhe> ... if you're interested talk to me
03:07:56 <dauwhe> ... there's groups on Indic, mongolian, all sorts of things
03:08:12 <dauwhe> nmccully: there are lots of *-req docs
03:08:31 <dauwhe> duerst: JLREQ is highly evolved, others not so much
03:08:47 <dauwhe> RRSAgent, draft minutes
03:08:47 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-jlreq-minutes.html dauwhe
03:09:10 <duga> duga has joined #jlreq
03:09:22 <dauwhe> florian: writing modes is now PR. thanks who helped.
03:16:43 <atsushi> atsushi has joined #jlreq
03:18:23 <dauwhe> dauwhe has joined #jlreq
03:34:06 <dauwhe> dauwhe has joined #jlreq
03:50:36 <dauwhe> dauwhe has joined #jlreq
03:53:41 <dauwhe> dauwhe has joined #jlreq
04:03:07 <dauwhe> dauwhe has joined #jlreq
04:19:54 <duga> duga has joined #jlreq
04:22:41 <duga> duga has joined #jlreq
04:24:52 <dauwhe> dauwhe has joined #jlreq
04:28:10 <toshiakikoike> toshiakikoike has joined #jlreq
04:29:39 <dontcallmeDOM> dontcallmeDOM has joined #jlreq
04:30:22 <rniwa> rniwa has joined #jlreq
04:32:07 <nigel> nigel has joined #jlreq
04:33:18 <myles> myles has joined #jlreq
04:34:41 <shimazu> shimazu has joined #jlreq
04:39:18 <xfq> xfq has joined #jlreq
04:39:31 <xfq> xfq has left #jlreq
04:42:06 <skk> skk has joined #jlreq
04:42:34 <nmccully> nmccully has joined #jlreq
04:43:44 <dom> dom has left #jlreq
04:46:55 <atsushi> atsushi has joined #jlreq
04:50:59 <dauwhe_> dauwhe_ has joined #jlreq
04:52:11 <Zakim> Zakim has left #jlreq
04:57:05 <nmccully> slides are here: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2019Sep/att-0003/TPAC_JLREQ_2019.pdf
05:01:12 <nmccully> rrsagent, make logs public
05:01:23 <nmccully> rssagent, make minutes
05:16:42 <shimazu> shimazu has joined #jlreq
05:24:36 <duga> duga has joined #jlreq
05:27:32 <dauwhe> dauwhe has joined #jlreq
05:29:54 <myles> myles has joined #jlreq
05:30:13 <nigel> nigel has joined #jlreq
05:30:42 <rniwa> rniwa has joined #jlreq
05:30:44 <rniwa> rniwa has left #jlreq
05:31:08 <toshiakikoike> toshiakikoike has joined #jlreq
05:33:46 <dauwhe_> dauwhe_ has joined #jlreq
05:36:41 <shimazu> shimazu has joined #jlreq
05:36:44 <nigel_> nigel_ has joined #jlreq
05:42:41 <skk> skk has joined #jlreq
05:45:48 <atsushi> atsushi has joined #jlreq
05:55:05 <skk> skk has joined #jlreq
06:13:41 <nmccully> nmccully has joined #jlreq
06:14:26 <nmccully> nmccully has left #jlreq
06:30:18 <duga> duga has joined #jlreq
06:32:01 <shimazu> shimazu has joined #jlreq
06:33:22 <dauwhe> dauwhe has joined #jlreq
06:38:17 <myles> myles has joined #jlreq
07:04:35 <nigel> nigel has joined #jlreq
07:10:42 <myles> myles has joined #jlreq
07:11:27 <myles> myles has joined #jlreq
07:21:58 <nigel> nigel has joined #jlreq
07:22:32 <nigel_> nigel_ has joined #jlreq
07:23:05 <duga> duga has joined #jlreq
07:24:03 <duga> duga has joined #jlreq
07:24:07 <dauwhe> dauwhe has joined #jlreq
07:31:05 <myles> myles has joined #jlreq
07:31:59 <nigel> nigel has joined #jlreq
07:33:32 <duga> duga has joined #jlreq
07:34:13 <toshiakikoike> toshiakikoike has joined #jlreq
07:34:49 <shimazu> shimazu has joined #jlreq
07:36:26 <skk> skk has joined #jlreq
07:53:22 <Bert> Bert has left #jlreq
08:00:07 <nigel_> nigel_ has joined #jlreq
08:00:23 <skk_> skk_ has joined #jlreq
08:25:18 <dauwhe> dauwhe has joined #jlreq
08:27:30 <shimazu> shimazu has joined #jlreq
08:30:57 <myles> myles has joined #jlreq
08:33:09 <toshiakikoike> toshiakikoike has joined #jlreq
08:35:01 <nigel_> nigel_ has joined #jlreq
08:35:06 <dauwhe> dauwhe has joined #jlreq
08:35:46 <nigel> nigel has joined #jlreq
08:44:11 <dauwhe> dauwhe has joined #jlreq
08:46:33 <skk> skk has joined #jlreq
08:49:33 <shimazu> shimazu has joined #jlreq
08:58:02 <shimazu> shimazu has joined #jlreq
09:07:43 <dauwhe> dauwhe has joined #jlreq
09:31:45 <nigel> nigel has joined #jlreq
09:49:48 <dbaron> dbaron has left #jlreq
09:54:00 <atsushi> atsushi has joined #jlreq