IRC log of images on 2019-09-18
Timestamps are in UTC.
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- logging to https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-images-irc
- 01:45:12 [koalie]
- RRSAgent, make logs public
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- koalie has changed the topic to: https://w3c.github.io/tpac-breakouts/sessions.html
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- rrsagent, here
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- See https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-images-irc#T08-31-14
- 08:31:23 [ChrisLilley]
- present+
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- Meeting: Images
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- present+
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- present+
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- present+
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- RRSAgent, make minutes
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- present+
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- present+
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- RRSAgent, make logs world-visible
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- present+
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- RRSAgent, make minutes
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- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-images-minutes.html zcorpan
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- present+
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- scribenick: zcorpan
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- present+
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- [presentation]
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- present+
- 08:34:30 [cyril]
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- 08:34:37 [bdekoz]
- present+
- 08:34:56 [zcorpan]
- cyril: container format used heavily for video, now proposed for images
- 08:35:00 [zcorpan]
- cyril: HEIF
- 08:35:11 [bkardell_]
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- 08:35:14 [zcorpan]
- cyril: lots of images on a web page, on average 30 per page
- 08:35:18 [bkardell_]
- present+
- 08:35:19 [zcorpan]
- cyril: small in resolution
- 08:35:21 [zcorpan]
- cyril: for icons
- 08:35:29 [jya]
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- 08:35:30 [zcorpan]
- cyril: constraints cna be very different compared to video
- 08:35:35 [zcorpan]
- cyril: images need to be decoded very fast
- 08:35:38 [zcorpan]
- cyril: footprint is a problem
- 08:35:45 [zcorpan]
- cyril: small footprint for video decoder
- 08:35:51 [zcorpan]
- cyril: gpu for video
- 08:36:06 [zcorpan]
- cyril: goal is to try to understand the consequences for browsers, content providers, users
- 08:36:10 [zcorpan]
- cyril: overlap and differences
- 08:36:20 [zcorpan]
- cyril: not everyone is familiar, want to give more details
- 08:36:28 [hhan1]
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- 08:36:31 [zcorpan]
- cyril: ISOBMFF
- 08:36:33 [ericc]
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- 08:36:37 [zcorpan]
- cyril: "boxes"
- 08:36:47 [zcorpan]
- cyril: MSE-type video "moov" "moof"
- 08:36:52 [zcorpan]
- cyril: for images "meta" box
- 08:36:58 [zcorpan]
- cyril: freely available
- 08:37:01 [zcorpan]
- cyril: link to spec
- 08:37:27 [zcorpan]
- cyril: more recent spec defines hwo to use the "meta" box to store props for th eimage
- 08:37:39 [zcorpan]
- cyril: new type of track, "pict" for animations
- 08:37:43 [zcorpan]
- cyril: how to store thumbnails
- 08:37:48 [zcorpan]
- cyril: something channels
- 08:37:54 [zcorpan]
- cyril: codec agnostic
- 08:38:11 [zcorpan]
- cyril: annexes how to store HEVC, AVC, JPEG, but can use any codec
- 08:38:35 [markw]
- ISO BMFF: https://standards.iso.org/ittf/PubliclyAvailableStandards/c068960_ISO_IEC_14496-12_2015.zip
- 08:38:41 [zcorpan]
- pal: freely available? Rf?
- 08:38:48 [zcorpan]
- cyril: the spec is freely available.
- 08:39:05 [zcorpan]
- cyril: in terms of royalties, the spec has been available for 20 years...
- 08:39:13 [zcorpan]
- pal: ISO patent database...
- 08:39:17 [zcorpan]
- cyril: doesn't mean naything
- 08:39:20 [hhan2]
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- 08:39:34 [markw]
- MPEG Image File Format: https://standards.iso.org/ittf/PubliclyAvailableStandards/c066067_ISO_IEC_23008-12_2017.zip
- 08:39:40 [zcorpan]
- cyril: if someone impl it, and has been sued, that's relevant
- 08:40:04 [zcorpan]
- cyril: large spec with lots of tech, not all of it is useful
- 08:40:15 [zcorpan]
- cyril: MIAF
- 08:40:18 [pal]
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- 08:40:25 [zcorpan]
- cyril: meta box is required
- 08:40:29 [zcorpan]
- cyril: for specifying base image
- 08:40:35 [zcorpan]
- cyril: even if you have a sequence of images
- 08:40:44 [zcorpan]
- cyril: e.g. middle image is representative, used for thumbnail
- 08:40:49 [zcorpan]
- cyril: media profiles
- 08:40:56 [zcorpan]
- cyril: brands, special profiles
- 08:41:01 [zcorpan]
- cyril: progressively loaded
- 08:41:03 [zcorpan]
- cyril: burst of images
- 08:41:10 [zcorpan]
- cyril: spec is not freely downloadable
- 08:41:14 [zcorpan]
- cyril: can pay to get it
- 08:41:23 [zcorpan]
- cyril: AVIF
- 08:41:26 [zcorpan]
- cyril: hosted on github
- 08:41:29 [zcorpan]
- cyril: freely available
- 08:41:35 [zcorpan]
- cyril: is based on MIAF
- 08:41:42 [zcorpan]
- cyril: uses AV1 codec
- 08:41:49 [zcorpan]
- cyril: transparency
- 08:41:53 [zcorpan]
- cyril: two media profiles
- 08:41:57 [zcorpan]
- cyril: baseline, advanced
- 08:42:02 [zcorpan]
- cyril: main and high
- 08:42:11 [zcorpan]
- cyril: reference software
- 08:42:16 [zcorpan]
- cyril: C impl, portable
- 08:42:20 [zcorpan]
- cyril: encode and decode
- 08:42:23 [zcorpan]
- cyril: including alpha
- 08:42:39 [zcorpan]
- cyril: the support, HEIF-based images, in browsers is ... currently limited
- 08:42:57 [zcorpan]
- cyril: does apple support HEIF?
- 08:43:27 [zcorpan]
- OS supports it but not web-exposed
- 08:43:57 [zcorpan]
- JakeA: you can encode but not decode in Safari macOS
- 08:44:04 [zcorpan]
- cyril: other browsers, dunno?
- 08:44:20 [zcorpan]
- mstange: firefox doesn't support
- 08:44:36 [zcorpan]
- cyril: chrome bug...
- 08:44:40 [zcorpan]
- annevk: we're looking into it
- 08:44:53 [zcorpan]
- annevk: open issues with AVIF
- 08:45:27 [zcorpan]
- cyril: open questions... is it reasonbale to assume that if a video codec is supported, will the image codec be too?
- 08:45:31 [zcorpan]
- annevk: once we support both, sure
- 08:45:33 [zcorpan]
- LOL
- 08:45:45 [zcorpan]
- cyril: don't want to use multiple decoders
- 08:46:01 [zcorpan]
- ??: path for gecko, between image and video totally different
- 08:46:08 [zcorpan]
- ??: but can change
- 08:46:22 [zcorpan]
- mstange: in the past the answer has been no. for webp and webm
- 08:46:42 [zcorpan]
- mstange: we don't want the web platform to rely on (something) image formats
- 08:46:52 [zcorpan]
- yoav: it may be technically possible but there are other considerations
- 08:47:19 [zcorpan]
- cyril: would media capabilities ?
- 08:47:24 [zcorpan]
- mstange: i don't see why not
- 08:47:35 [zcorpan]
- yoav: accept headers...
- 08:47:50 [zcorpan]
- ChrisLilley: accept were expected to have that role, but failed
- 08:47:57 [zcorpan]
- yoav: ok but sounds like a reasonable use case
- 08:48:14 [zcorpan]
- YY: possible that the device can support both
- 08:48:21 [zcorpan]
- YY: which should you choose
- 08:49:00 [zcorpan]
- s/YY/markw/
- 08:49:01 [zcorpan]
- s/YY/markw/
- 08:49:12 [zcorpan]
- yoav: nowehere near that spec but sounds reasonable use case
- 08:49:31 [zcorpan]
- cyril: AVIF format, supported in video
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- 08:49:39 [Yves]
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- 08:49:42 [zcorpan]
- cyril: how likely is it to get uniform support
- 08:49:48 [zcorpan]
- cyril: delta to achieve parsers
- 08:50:07 [zcorpan]
- ??: common demuxing and decoding video and images
- 08:50:09 [Yves]
- https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-httpbis-variants-00.html is relevant to the 'accept' header discussion
- 08:50:10 [Rochw]
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- 08:50:16 [zcorpan]
- annevk: for image loading there's some byte sniffing
- 08:50:32 [zcorpan]
- annevk: some challenge
- 08:50:39 [zcorpan]
- annevk: don't want to add new sniffing
- 08:50:57 [zcorpan]
- annevk: strict mime types for new formats
- 08:51:09 [zcorpan]
- yoav: strict mime types seems reasonable
- 08:51:13 [zcorpan]
- annevk: more than reasoanble
- 08:51:26 [zcorpan]
- ChrisLilley: do you say ??????
- 08:51:36 [zcorpan]
- ??: only to determine the container, not the codec
- 08:52:10 [zcorpan]
- zcorpan: for top level navigation, sniffing to figure out type of document
- 08:52:18 [zcorpan]
- cyril: the way HEIF define mime types
- 08:52:22 [zcorpan]
- cyril: one for static images
- 08:52:26 [zcorpan]
- cyril: one for image sequences
- 08:52:47 [zcorpan]
- ??: discussion a while back with w3c on media whether you listen to the server mime type
- 08:52:57 [zcorpan]
- ??: can only determine by sniffing, not by what the server says
- 08:53:01 [zcorpan]
- yoav: servers lie
- 08:53:11 [zcorpan]
- yoav: but if we add new stuff, we can break it
- 08:53:46 [zcorpan]
- ??: for firefox/safari (some format) , need sniffing
- 08:53:59 [zcorpan]
- ??: issue of trust
- 08:54:08 [zcorpan]
- ??: already don't trust mime type
- 08:54:13 [zcorpan]
- yoav: we should trust and verify
- 08:54:20 [zcorpan]
- yoav: if they lie, nothing runs
- 08:54:30 [zcorpan]
- yoav: people should figure it out and fix it
- 08:55:02 [zcorpan]
- annevk: we require the mime type to be correct, for webvtt, javascript modules...
- 08:55:12 [zcorpan]
- ??: video in particular
- 08:55:22 [zcorpan]
- ??: what makes major difference is the container
- 08:55:29 [zcorpan]
- annevk: video element does a request
- 08:55:39 [zcorpan]
- ??: media source, you specify what you're going to be fed
- 08:55:45 [zcorpan]
- annevk: you pass into an API
- 08:55:55 [zcorpan]
- ??: when you create your SourceBuffer
- 08:56:01 [zcorpan]
- ??: (missed)
- 08:56:07 [zcorpan]
- yoav: the server mime type is irrelevant
- 08:56:29 [zcorpan]
- JakeA: sniffing is fine if you have full access to (something?)
- 08:56:36 [jib]
- s/??/jya/
- 08:56:40 [zcorpan]
- annevk: sniffing i'm talking about if you navigate to a random url
- 08:56:52 [zcorpan]
- annevk: or if we load cross-origin resources
- 08:56:58 [zcorpan]
- annevk: safe-listing media resources
- 08:57:02 [zcorpan]
- annevk: others we'd block
- 08:57:13 [zcorpan]
- annevk: i'd like to restrict the sniffing. not keep adding
- 08:57:26 [zcorpan]
- cyril: the first bytes of the file contains the type of file
- 08:57:34 [zcorpan]
- cyril: the mime type tells you that
- 08:57:43 [zcorpan]
- jya: video src = bla
- 08:57:48 [zcorpan]
- yoav: server sends a mime type
- 08:57:55 [zcorpan]
- yoav: it needs to correspond to the content
- 08:58:03 [zcorpan]
- yoav: otherwise we need to add to the sniffing
- 08:58:05 [shimazu]
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- 08:58:34 [zcorpan]
- JakeA: if ... CORS, would just work
- 08:58:37 [zcorpan]
- annevk: maybe
- 08:58:40 [igarashi_]
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- 08:58:52 [zcorpan]
- cyril: specific mime type
- 08:59:00 [zcorpan]
- cyril: issue is "why 2 mime types"
- 08:59:16 [zcorpan]
- cyril: either you change the spec, if the static mime type is given but the content is actually a sequence
- 08:59:21 [zcorpan]
- cyril: rendered as the static
- 08:59:28 [zcorpan]
- cyril: or get rid of the second mime type
- 08:59:35 [zcorpan]
- ChrisLilley: given it has htumbnail
- 08:59:39 [zcorpan]
- ChrisLilley: show static image
- 08:59:48 [zcorpan]
- ChrisLilley: may want to do that deliberately
- 09:00:04 [zcorpan]
- yoav: are there scenarios where static will be supported but sequence not?
- 09:00:13 [zcorpan]
- yoav: if so we need 2 mime types
- 09:00:28 [zcorpan]
- cyril: when i talk to media folks at google, they don't know
- 09:00:35 [zcorpan]
- mstange: animations
- 09:00:44 [zcorpan]
- jya: does the user want to be annoyed with sound
- 09:00:57 [zcorpan]
- yoav: can be scenarios where people will have multiple ... dunno
- 09:01:24 [zcorpan]
- cyril: no requirement in the spec to treat the mime types differently
- 09:01:41 [zcorpan]
- annevk: problem is the mime type has no impact on processing model, will end up the same
- 09:01:48 [zcorpan]
- yoav: <picture>, preload
- 09:01:57 [zcorpan]
- yoav: if i specify a mime type that is not supported
- 09:02:02 [zcorpan]
- yoav: it will be skipped
- 09:02:23 [zcorpan]
- JakeA: if you specify jpeg but return png, it works
- 09:02:39 [zcorpan]
- yoav: if you support only one, you want Accept to reflect that (hopefully), and type="" should work
- 09:02:56 [zcorpan]
- annevk: why would you switch between those two mime types?
- 09:03:22 [zcorpan]
- yoav: may want to fall back to other format
- 09:03:29 [zcorpan]
- cyril: let's say you intend to support an api
- 09:03:35 [zcorpan]
- cyril: would you support only static?
- 09:03:39 [zcorpan]
- annevk: moz would support both
- 09:03:53 [zcorpan]
- yoav: problem with webp
- 09:04:07 [zcorpan]
- s/webp/apng/
- 09:04:36 [zcorpan]
- ChrisLilley: PNG group said "you should register video/png" but they didn't want to do that
- 09:04:48 [zcorpan]
- yoav: question: does anyone want to ship one but not the other?
- 09:05:10 [zcorpan]
- ChrisLilley: use case for static or animated?
- 09:05:27 [zcorpan]
- yoav: for goth type attr and accept header
- 09:05:32 [zcorpan]
- yoav: if UA supports the format for both
- 09:05:35 [zcorpan]
- yoav: same signal
- 09:05:46 [zcorpan]
- yoav: no way for the web dev to distinguish based on mime type
- 09:05:53 [zcorpan]
- cyril: third bullet point
- 09:06:07 [zcorpan]
- cyril: consistent support between <img> and <video>
- 09:06:35 [zcorpan]
- cyril: will we see ... will the overlap , unified model, convergance between the two elements?
- 09:06:40 [zcorpan]
- yoav: wouldn't expect it
- 09:06:50 [zcorpan]
- cyril: difference is subtle
- 09:07:18 [zcorpan]
- yoav: there are multiple image formats that have animation, gif, webp
- 09:07:27 [zcorpan]
- yoav: conv with our media team
- 09:07:35 [zcorpan]
- yoav: needs convincing that the complexity is worth it
- 09:07:42 [zcorpan]
- yoav: for video codec in <img>
- 09:07:47 [zcorpan]
- yoav: if you have data
- 09:07:52 [zcorpan]
- yoav: byte-savings e.g.
- 09:08:02 [zcorpan]
- yoav: i can cummunicate it
- 09:08:30 [zcorpan]
- yoav: ability to sandbox
- 09:08:43 [zcorpan]
- cyril: safari team?
- 09:08:57 [zcorpan]
- smfr: if you think about... yes
- 09:09:05 [zcorpan]
- smfr: when we display an mp4 file
- 09:09:08 [zcorpan]
- smfr: use hardward decoder
- 09:09:14 [zcorpan]
- smfr: decode one frame at a time
- 09:09:19 [zcorpan]
- smfr: we don't need to keep them all around
- 09:09:22 [zcorpan]
- smfr: with animated gif
- 09:09:31 [zcorpan]
- smfr: may not want to decode each frame every loop
- 09:09:38 [zcorpan]
- smfr: savings
- 09:09:50 [zcorpan]
- JakeA: comparison is <img src=video> vs <video muted>
- 09:10:14 [zcorpan]
- smfr: can't use video as background image
- 09:10:26 [zcorpan]
- yoav: problem of not everyone can control and modify their markup
- 09:10:32 [zcorpan]
- yoav: i argued for that internally
- 09:10:41 [zcorpan]
- ChrisLilley: ...lost?
- 09:10:46 [zcorpan]
- yoav: well yes
- 09:10:52 [zcorpan]
- yoav: animated webp is assumed to be enough
- 09:10:57 [zcorpan]
- yoav: for background-image
- 09:11:02 [zcorpan]
- yoav: lack of control for markup...
- 09:11:04 [JunGamo]
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- 09:11:08 [zcorpan]
- yoav: otherwise <video loop muted> would work
- 09:11:15 [zcorpan]
- smfr: arguing power and memory...
- 09:11:24 [zcorpan]
- yoav: so... based on gpu decoding?
- 09:11:25 [zcorpan]
- smfr: yes
- 09:11:41 [zcorpan]
- yoav: argument was that images and animated gifs tend to come in lots vs video is only one
- 09:11:52 [zcorpan]
- yoav: you could have multiple animated gifs
- 09:12:09 [zcorpan]
- yoav: i will convey your skeptisism smfr
- 09:12:37 [smfr]
- s/smfr/ericc/ ^
- 09:12:38 [zcorpan]
- Richard: gpu or cpu, does it matter?
- 09:12:49 [zcorpan]
- Richard: <img> tag, or if they merge
- 09:13:00 [zcorpan]
- mstange: video where img is supported...
- 09:13:08 [zcorpan]
- mstange: img is supported in many places
- 09:13:23 [zcorpan]
- smfr: we support video everywhere
- 09:14:03 [zcorpan]
- cyril: (missed)
- 09:14:05 [zcorpan]
- yoav: bring data
- 09:14:11 [zcorpan]
- annevk: why do you want that?
- 09:14:21 [zcorpan]
- cyril: when only some browser support
- 09:14:30 [zcorpan]
- cyril: same format, same codec
- 09:14:48 [zcorpan]
- jya: video format was just so much better at compressing compared to gif
- 09:15:00 [zcorpan]
- jya: you see on reddit, 100MB gif
- 09:15:06 [zcorpan]
- jya: is it relevant
- 09:15:15 [zcorpan]
- jya: reason is it compresses better
- 09:15:22 [zcorpan]
- jya: now images compress well, is it relevant?
- 09:15:28 [zcorpan]
- annevk: also special cases
- 09:15:44 [zcorpan]
- jya: would you like your images to be (missed)
- 09:15:48 [zcorpan]
- cyril: depends on format?
- 09:15:55 [zcorpan]
- cyril: can follow image pipeline
- 09:16:02 [zcorpan]
- jya: webp, use image decoder
- 09:16:06 [zcorpan]
- jya: different objective
- 09:16:14 [zcorpan]
- jya: want to be able to pause
- 09:16:19 [zcorpan]
- jya: can't do that with video
- 09:16:29 [zcorpan]
- jya: interrupts page loading
- 09:16:39 [zcorpan]
- jya: purely technical
- 09:16:49 [zcorpan]
- cyril: can still provide same decoding features
- 09:17:18 [zcorpan]
- jya: ok if you have video that is gpu decoded, may not have same features in cpu
- 09:17:28 [zcorpan]
- smfr: fundamental differences between img and video
- 09:17:32 [zcorpan]
- smfr: color profiles different
- 09:17:38 [zcorpan]
- smfr: not sure those would converge
- 09:17:52 [zcorpan]
- smfr: might be a while before those converge
- 09:18:01 [zcorpan]
- smfr: netflix is interested in mixing the two
- 09:18:02 [zcorpan]
- cyril: yes
- 09:18:12 [zcorpan]
- jya: if it were easy, everyone would have done it
- 09:18:15 [zcorpan]
- cyril: some have done it
- 09:18:20 [zcorpan]
- jya: one format
- 09:18:28 [zcorpan]
- cyril: adjurn
- 09:18:33 [zcorpan]
- rrsagent, make minutes
- 09:18:33 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-images-minutes.html zcorpan
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