IRC log of html-3d on 2019-09-18

Timestamps are in UTC.

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logging to https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-html-3d-irc
01:30:25 [wseltzer]
rrsagent, draft minutes
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I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-html-3d-minutes.html wseltzer
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rrsagent, make logs public
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RRSAgent, make minutes
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I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-html-3d-minutes.html Roy
06:56:33 [Roy]
Meeting: HTML 3D Element & Native glTF
07:02:56 [Roy]
RRSAgent, make minutes
07:02:56 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-html-3d-minutes.html Roy
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07:31:20 [dom]
Present+
07:31:29 [Roy]
zhiqiang: good afternoon, everyone
07:31:39 [dom]
Meeting: HTML 3D element & Native glTF
07:31:42 [Roy]
... we will have two topic here
07:31:43 [dom]
RRSAgent, make log public
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07:32:11 [Roy]
... zhiqiang from Huawei, mobile platform
07:32:33 [Roy]
... 3D is becoming a popular type of resource, much richer
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07:32:59 [Roy]
... to achieve more good experience
07:33:19 [Roy]
... few example
07:33:46 [Roy]
... System level 3D/AR Integration, all platform could play 3D
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07:34:10 [Roy]
... you could even use phone to do 3d model, there is a example for this
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07:35:17 [Roy]
... once more, for e-Commerce, we could use 3d model to do the goods show
07:35:46 [Roy]
... social platform also suit for 3d
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present+ myles
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07:36:12 [Roy]
... you also could use 3d model to show the search results
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07:36:40 [Roy]
... This is our Usage Scenario
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07:37:04 [Roy]
... cloud and client side could do interactive
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07:38:00 [Roy]
... challenge here: low-level Web3D interface，Inconvenient, Web 3D Performance is not Good, No Easy way for content + processing sharing to do AR
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07:38:36 [Roy]
... our goal is to single line of code to achieve AR and 3d
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07:39:02 [Roy]
... this is gITF idea for 3d
07:39:12 [dom]
s/gITF/glTF
07:39:20 [Roy]
... there is a simple example of gITF
07:39:40 [dom]
s/gITF/glTF
07:39:53 [Roy]
... we bring something in mobile, here is the demo
07:40:31 [Roy]
... quick app demo, you could use phone to put a car in surround area
07:40:41 [Roy]
... with a specific tag
07:40:55 [Roy]
... only one tag included
07:41:41 [Roy]
... another demo, we could transit 3 model from one device to another
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07:42:43 [Roy]
... I will introduce the api later, we could use this API for the different device
07:43:11 [Roy]
... 3d will have alive feather
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07:43:55 [Roy]
... from developer side, we create something called xmodel
07:44:17 [Roy]
... attributes list in slides
07:44:36 [cabanier]
present+
07:44:44 [Roy]
... ar, autoplay = true...
07:44:59 [Roy]
... simple view for the architecture
07:45:27 [Roy]
... we have sceneView in native
07:46:06 [Roy]
... there are some thoughts on standardlization
07:46:22 [Roy]
... khnoros have some word on 3d
07:46:51 [Roy]
... from W3C side, I want to proposal Xmodel as highlevel
07:47:07 [Roy]
... also WebXR for lowlevel
07:47:41 [Roy]
... there are some sample code from Apple, Google, MagicLeap
07:47:56 [Roy]
... the last one are our code
07:48:01 [cabanier]
q+
07:48:03 [klausw]
q+
07:48:17 [AmeliaBR]
present+
07:48:19 [Roy]
... <xmodel src=“mymodel.gltf” mode=“3d”width=300 height=200> </xmodel>
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07:49:07 [mounir]
q?
07:49:16 [mounir]
q+
07:49:36 [klausw]
q-
07:49:38 [dom]
-> https://www.w3.org/2018/12/games-workshop/papers/new-html-3D-element.txt A new HTML element to display a 3D scene, Yasushi Ando (Kabuku Inc.)
07:49:38 [klausw]
q+
07:50:22 [dom]
-> https://www.w3.org/2018/12/games-workshop/ W3C Workshop on Web Games
07:50:24 [Roy]
Sushanth: I am come from Microsoft, from immersive WG
07:50:51 [dom]
-> https://github.com/immersive-web/proposals/issues/52 Native GLTF #52 in Immersive Web CG
07:50:52 [Roy]
... there is a proposal in immersive WG
07:51:21 [dom]
-> https://github.com/immersive-web/spatial-favicons Spatial Favicons in Immersive Web CG
07:51:22 [Roy]
... 3D usage in the web
07:51:58 [dom]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
07:51:58 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-html-3d-minutes.html dom
07:52:06 [Roy]
... you could find 3d people could use for e-commerce purpose
07:52:32 [myles]
q+
07:52:33 [Roy]
... you could change the car color and give a house overview
07:52:40 [AmeliaBR]
q+
07:52:46 [Roy]
... or decorate a room
07:53:23 [Roy]
... you could think about api in highlevel model
07:54:01 [Roy]
... here is a model creat example
07:54:30 [Roy]
... you could add model by code, its convinent
07:54:56 [Roy]
... introduction for gLB and gLTF
07:55:33 [Roy]
... gLTG JSON represents a scence graph
07:56:02 [Roy]
... we have already done for implantation for gitf 2.0
07:56:09 [Roy]
... @@
07:56:34 [Roy]
... there is a Demo, you will see a 3d demo
07:57:24 [Roy]
... you could see the details for the model
07:57:40 [dom]
q+ to ask about accessibility support in glTF in general, and its exposure in a Web browser
07:57:52 [Roy]
... also we could change the color by gitf
07:58:56 [Roy]
... there are something not including by gITF
07:59:13 [dom]
scribenick: dom
07:59:50 [dom]
Sushanth: we wanted to compare native with JS-based implementation from performance
08:00:02 [dom]
... I've used a synthetic benchmark to gauge performance
08:00:26 [dom]
... we put tons of gltf models together - you get much better fps in native vs threejs
08:00:42 [dom]
... in another test, we compare when we take animations into account - again big difference in performance
08:00:55 [dom]
... but that's only true when it uses CPU
08:01:17 [dom]
... native only addresses main-thread congestion - it only helps with CPU bottleneck
08:01:25 [dom]
... FPS is gated both by GPU and CPU
08:02:20 [dom]
... looking in more details, with the three.js based implementation, the bottleneck is the main thread
08:02:41 [dom]
... with the native implementation, the bottleneck is the GPU
08:02:50 [dom]
... there are opportunities to reduce congestion on the main thread
08:03:05 [dom]
... thinking about this further in comparing native vs js
08:03:25 [dom]
... you don't want to miss frames in a VR environment
08:03:48 [dom]
... another advantage might be to enable model protection - not sure if it's actually needed
08:04:08 [dom]
... please bring comments to Immersive Web Proposal github issue
08:04:13 [dom]
q?
08:04:20 [dom]
ack cabanier
08:04:28 [dom]
cabanier: work for Magic Leap on the Helio browser
08:04:33 [zhiqiang]
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08:04:35 [dino]
q+
08:04:40 [dom]
... we did introduce the model tag - it's a custom element, not a native HTML element
08:04:51 [mdrimages]
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08:05:03 [dom]
... we could easily subtitute with another component e.g. the model-viewer component from Google
08:05:14 [dom]
... I don't think we need a tag as much as some low-level JS binding
08:05:39 [dom]
... people are very peculiar about how to integrate their model, it's hard to do it declaratively
08:05:48 [dom]
... I think an API to load a model and render sounds like a better approach
08:05:56 [dom]
... I'm happy to also give a demo with my device
08:06:24 [dom]
... the rendering is done directly by the OS in our case - the browser is a scene graph
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08:06:34 [dom]
ack mounir
08:06:46 [dom]
mounir: some of my questions have been answered
08:07:06 [dom]
... what would be the main differences with the custom elements from Magic Leap and Google?
08:07:23 [dom]
... you mentioned accessibility - it would be good to hear about specific use cases
08:07:43 [dom]
... similarly to go down into more details in the performance issue - may be useful feedback for WebGL or WebGPU
08:08:15 [dom]
... one issue for model viewer is stability for an HTML element - feels hard to reach
08:08:23 [ada]
q+ to ask about a x-org web component?
08:08:33 [dom]
Sushanth: main difference between JS and native, it seems to be about garbage collection
08:09:14 [dom]
... Wrt JS, can it achieve the same performance? Native can do multithreading, which even with workers would be hard to do with JS
08:09:34 [dom]
... native has the upperhand on this; they can also use platform primitives (e.g. on Apple)
08:09:45 [dom]
Mounir: can WASM help wrt GC?
08:10:02 [dom]
Sushanth: there are still issues when talking back to the DOM since that remains single-threaded
08:10:32 [dom]
Zhiqiang: the tag would enable native performance, particularly important on mobile device
08:11:20 [dom]
... if we have a pre-defined tag, it enables any runtime to use gltf interactive format in a performant manner
08:11:40 [dom]
... we can integrate all the gltf spec features and bring a good 3D UX
08:12:05 [dom]
cabanier: the low level bindings talk directly to the OS - we don't go through openGL in Magic Leap
08:12:10 [dom]
... you don't actually parse glTF in JS
08:12:19 [dom]
q?
08:12:37 [dom]
Zhiqiang: there are different levels - low vs high
08:13:19 [dom]
... if we want to just show a model with some common interface, I think if we can have a related tag for that, and hide all the processing we can get very good performance and power consumtion
08:13:25 [dom]
q-
08:13:38 [dom]
... it also makes it easy for users to integrate content
08:14:01 [dom]
ack klausw
08:14:15 [dom]
klausw: wrt your native gltf proposal - excellent discussion there
08:14:20 [dom]
... unclear if a tag is ready
08:14:26 [dom]
... what if you want to compose models
08:14:28 [dom]
... it's uncelar
08:14:38 [dom]
... we shouldn't prematurely standardize things
08:14:51 [dom]
... I think it would be good to explore with JS solutions for a while
08:14:59 [dom]
... unless it's really unusable in JS land
08:15:11 [dom]
... it would be great to have a universally supported tag
08:15:18 [dom]
... on apple, you would need uszd
08:15:23 [dom]
... support
08:15:35 [dom]
... which you would have to take that into account in a model viewer
08:15:44 [dom]
Zhiqiang: we can have different formats like in video
08:15:55 [dom]
... e.g. h264 vs vp8
08:16:08 [dom]
... I agree that we need to explore more before proceeding, with a polyfill
08:16:12 [dom]
ack myles
08:16:36 [dom]
Myles: at a high level, the combination of simplicity and perf is compelling, but several issues need to be addressed
08:16:48 [dom]
... different renderers across platforms with different capabilities
08:16:53 [dom]
... finding a common subset would be important
08:17:12 [dom]
... it would also be a shame if the animation and event didn't align with what is available in CSS
08:17:19 [dom]
... that requires lots of analysis
08:17:28 [dom]
ack AmeliaBR
08:17:43 [dom]
AmeliaBR: thank you for the presentation of the two proposals - very encouraging
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08:17:51 [dom]
... different priorities but similar approaches
08:18:05 [dom]
... having compared your proposals, any concerns on the one or the other?
08:18:17 [dom]
... will you work towards merging?
08:18:37 [dom]
Sushanth: no much different between the proposals
08:18:52 [dom]
Amelia: it sounds like xmodel is a high level blackbox like the img tag
08:19:03 [dom]
... whereas the native gltf proposal exposes more of the internal
08:19:18 [dom]
... and thus exposes some of the possible instability of the underlying format
08:19:38 [dom]
... the use cases may be a bit different
08:19:55 [dom]
... would be good to understand the differences of use cases and iterate on the features necessary to compare
08:20:01 [dom]
... iterate with custom elements
08:20:22 [dom]
Zhiqiang: we've started sync-ing - we agree on the tag approach, overall the ideas are similar
08:20:29 [dom]
... a combination of a tag and native rendering
08:20:38 [dom]
... for better performance and quality
08:20:48 [dom]
... The JS API would also be useful for controlling the tag
08:20:55 [dom]
... it would also be useful in some cases
08:20:57 [dom]
q?
08:21:09 [dom]
... we need more time to explore the use cases
08:21:21 [dom]
... the general idea seems to provide support in a simple way
08:21:50 [dom]
Sushanth: are there any Web developers that would have similar needs to what e proposed?
08:21:59 [dom]
Jared: I would use it
08:22:21 [dom]
Dino: a few conflicting desires here
08:22:49 [dom]
... if you take the extensible Web manifest as gospel, this is a great example of starting with low level technologies and we're now getting feedback that people want a simpler approach
08:23:00 [dom]
... the downside is that you need interop
08:23:17 [dom]
... it's relatively easy for 2D (e.g PNG), but for 3D, you get very different rendering
08:23:27 [dom]
... we've even changed rendering across iOS versions
08:23:39 [dom]
... that's even truer across platforms and OSes
08:24:03 [dom]
... even if it's clear that's what the users want, there will still be significant challenges in interop in rendering
08:24:41 [dom]
... we've got feedback that taking a model from sketchfab and rendering in iOS led to unexpected results
08:24:43 [dom]
ack ada
08:24:43 [Zakim]
ada, you wanted to ask about a x-org web component?
08:24:50 [dom]
ada: there are 4 different implementations of model viewers
08:25:08 [dom]
... would be worth collaborating on a single web compoennt to flesh out what web developers need
08:25:17 [dom]
... once that's done, standardizing something around it might be easier
08:25:28 [dom]
... it would already be awesome to work with CSS 3D Transforms
08:25:50 [dom]
Sushanth: when you need to integrate a library to show models, this create resistance
08:26:00 [dom]
... even for a very popular libraries
08:26:15 [dom]
Ada: it could live in the Immersive Web WG
08:26:19 [dom]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
08:26:19 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-html-3d-minutes.html dom
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