IRC log of html-3d on 2019-09-18
Timestamps are in UTC.
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- logging to https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-html-3d-irc
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- rrsagent, draft minutes
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- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-html-3d-minutes.html wseltzer
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- RRSAgent, make minutes
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- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-html-3d-minutes.html Roy
- 06:56:33 [Roy]
- Meeting: HTML 3D Element & Native glTF
- 07:02:56 [Roy]
- RRSAgent, make minutes
- 07:02:56 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-html-3d-minutes.html Roy
- 07:10:11 [zhiqiang]
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- 07:31:20 [dom]
- Present+
- 07:31:29 [Roy]
- zhiqiang: good afternoon, everyone
- 07:31:39 [dom]
- Meeting: HTML 3D element & Native glTF
- 07:31:42 [Roy]
- ... we will have two topic here
- 07:31:43 [dom]
- RRSAgent, make log public
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- 07:32:01 [mdrimages]
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- 07:32:11 [Roy]
- ... zhiqiang from Huawei, mobile platform
- 07:32:33 [Roy]
- ... 3D is becoming a popular type of resource, much richer
- 07:32:48 [shaoboyan]
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- 07:32:55 [jiajia]
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- 07:32:59 [Roy]
- ... to achieve more good experience
- 07:33:19 [Roy]
- ... few example
- 07:33:46 [Roy]
- ... System level 3D/AR Integration, all platform could play 3D
- 07:33:46 [kzms2]
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- 07:34:10 [Roy]
- ... you could even use phone to do 3d model, there is a example for this
- 07:34:23 [yigu]
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- 07:35:17 [Roy]
- ... once more, for e-Commerce, we could use 3d model to do the goods show
- 07:35:46 [Roy]
- ... social platform also suit for 3d
- 07:36:08 [myles]
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- 07:36:10 [myles]
- present+ myles
- 07:36:11 [ak]
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- 07:36:12 [Roy]
- ... you also could use 3d model to show the search results
- 07:36:21 [dino]
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- 07:36:28 [Jared]
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- 07:36:34 [jehdh]
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- 07:36:40 [Roy]
- ... This is our Usage Scenario
- 07:36:50 [klausw]
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- 07:37:04 [Roy]
- ... cloud and client side could do interactive
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- 07:37:26 [ak_]
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- 07:37:36 [AmeliaBR]
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- 07:38:00 [Roy]
- ... challenge here: low-level Web3D interface,Inconvenient, Web 3D Performance is not Good, No Easy way for content + processing sharing to do AR
- 07:38:06 [xfq]
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- 07:38:19 [xiaoqian]
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- 07:38:36 [Roy]
- ... our goal is to single line of code to achieve AR and 3d
- 07:38:53 [kip]
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- 07:39:02 [Roy]
- ... this is gITF idea for 3d
- 07:39:12 [dom]
- s/gITF/glTF
- 07:39:20 [Roy]
- ... there is a simple example of gITF
- 07:39:40 [dom]
- s/gITF/glTF
- 07:39:53 [Roy]
- ... we bring something in mobile, here is the demo
- 07:40:31 [Roy]
- ... quick app demo, you could use phone to put a car in surround area
- 07:40:41 [Roy]
- ... with a specific tag
- 07:40:55 [Roy]
- ... only one tag included
- 07:41:41 [Roy]
- ... another demo, we could transit 3 model from one device to another
- 07:41:54 [smfr]
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- 07:42:43 [Roy]
- ... I will introduce the api later, we could use this API for the different device
- 07:43:11 [Roy]
- ... 3d will have alive feather
- 07:43:44 [ak]
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- 07:43:55 [Roy]
- ... from developer side, we create something called xmodel
- 07:44:17 [Roy]
- ... attributes list in slides
- 07:44:36 [cabanier]
- present+
- 07:44:44 [Roy]
- ... ar, autoplay = true...
- 07:44:59 [Roy]
- ... simple view for the architecture
- 07:45:27 [Roy]
- ... we have sceneView in native
- 07:46:06 [Roy]
- ... there are some thoughts on standardlization
- 07:46:22 [Roy]
- ... khnoros have some word on 3d
- 07:46:51 [Roy]
- ... from W3C side, I want to proposal Xmodel as highlevel
- 07:47:07 [Roy]
- ... also WebXR for lowlevel
- 07:47:41 [Roy]
- ... there are some sample code from Apple, Google, MagicLeap
- 07:47:56 [Roy]
- ... the last one are our code
- 07:48:01 [cabanier]
- q+
- 07:48:03 [klausw]
- q+
- 07:48:17 [AmeliaBR]
- present+
- 07:48:19 [Roy]
- ... <xmodel src=“mymodel.gltf” mode=“3d”width=300 height=200> </xmodel>
- 07:48:56 [mounir]
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- 07:49:07 [mounir]
- q?
- 07:49:16 [mounir]
- q+
- 07:49:36 [klausw]
- q-
- 07:49:38 [dom]
- -> https://www.w3.org/2018/12/games-workshop/papers/new-html-3D-element.txt A new HTML element to display a 3D scene, Yasushi Ando (Kabuku Inc.)
- 07:49:38 [klausw]
- q+
- 07:50:22 [dom]
- -> https://www.w3.org/2018/12/games-workshop/ W3C Workshop on Web Games
- 07:50:24 [Roy]
- Sushanth: I am come from Microsoft, from immersive WG
- 07:50:51 [dom]
- -> https://github.com/immersive-web/proposals/issues/52 Native GLTF #52 in Immersive Web CG
- 07:50:52 [Roy]
- ... there is a proposal in immersive WG
- 07:51:21 [dom]
- -> https://github.com/immersive-web/spatial-favicons Spatial Favicons in Immersive Web CG
- 07:51:22 [Roy]
- ... 3D usage in the web
- 07:51:58 [dom]
- RRSAgent, draft minutes
- 07:51:58 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-html-3d-minutes.html dom
- 07:52:06 [Roy]
- ... you could find 3d people could use for e-commerce purpose
- 07:52:32 [myles]
- q+
- 07:52:33 [Roy]
- ... you could change the car color and give a house overview
- 07:52:40 [AmeliaBR]
- q+
- 07:52:46 [Roy]
- ... or decorate a room
- 07:53:23 [Roy]
- ... you could think about api in highlevel model
- 07:54:01 [Roy]
- ... here is a model creat example
- 07:54:30 [Roy]
- ... you could add model by code, its convinent
- 07:54:56 [Roy]
- ... introduction for gLB and gLTF
- 07:55:33 [Roy]
- ... gLTG JSON represents a scence graph
- 07:56:02 [Roy]
- ... we have already done for implantation for gitf 2.0
- 07:56:09 [Roy]
- ... @@
- 07:56:34 [Roy]
- ... there is a Demo, you will see a 3d demo
- 07:57:24 [Roy]
- ... you could see the details for the model
- 07:57:40 [dom]
- q+ to ask about accessibility support in glTF in general, and its exposure in a Web browser
- 07:57:52 [Roy]
- ... also we could change the color by gitf
- 07:58:56 [Roy]
- ... there are something not including by gITF
- 07:59:13 [dom]
- scribenick: dom
- 07:59:50 [dom]
- Sushanth: we wanted to compare native with JS-based implementation from performance
- 08:00:02 [dom]
- ... I've used a synthetic benchmark to gauge performance
- 08:00:26 [dom]
- ... we put tons of gltf models together - you get much better fps in native vs threejs
- 08:00:42 [dom]
- ... in another test, we compare when we take animations into account - again big difference in performance
- 08:00:55 [dom]
- ... but that's only true when it uses CPU
- 08:01:17 [dom]
- ... native only addresses main-thread congestion - it only helps with CPU bottleneck
- 08:01:25 [dom]
- ... FPS is gated both by GPU and CPU
- 08:02:20 [dom]
- ... looking in more details, with the three.js based implementation, the bottleneck is the main thread
- 08:02:41 [dom]
- ... with the native implementation, the bottleneck is the GPU
- 08:02:50 [dom]
- ... there are opportunities to reduce congestion on the main thread
- 08:03:05 [dom]
- ... thinking about this further in comparing native vs js
- 08:03:25 [dom]
- ... you don't want to miss frames in a VR environment
- 08:03:48 [dom]
- ... another advantage might be to enable model protection - not sure if it's actually needed
- 08:04:08 [dom]
- ... please bring comments to Immersive Web Proposal github issue
- 08:04:13 [dom]
- q?
- 08:04:20 [dom]
- ack cabanier
- 08:04:28 [dom]
- cabanier: work for Magic Leap on the Helio browser
- 08:04:33 [zhiqiang]
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- 08:04:35 [dino]
- q+
- 08:04:40 [dom]
- ... we did introduce the model tag - it's a custom element, not a native HTML element
- 08:04:51 [mdrimages]
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- 08:05:03 [dom]
- ... we could easily subtitute with another component e.g. the model-viewer component from Google
- 08:05:14 [dom]
- ... I don't think we need a tag as much as some low-level JS binding
- 08:05:39 [dom]
- ... people are very peculiar about how to integrate their model, it's hard to do it declaratively
- 08:05:48 [dom]
- ... I think an API to load a model and render sounds like a better approach
- 08:05:56 [dom]
- ... I'm happy to also give a demo with my device
- 08:06:24 [dom]
- ... the rendering is done directly by the OS in our case - the browser is a scene graph
- 08:06:25 [mattwoodrow]
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- 08:06:34 [dom]
- ack mounir
- 08:06:46 [dom]
- mounir: some of my questions have been answered
- 08:07:06 [dom]
- ... what would be the main differences with the custom elements from Magic Leap and Google?
- 08:07:23 [dom]
- ... you mentioned accessibility - it would be good to hear about specific use cases
- 08:07:43 [dom]
- ... similarly to go down into more details in the performance issue - may be useful feedback for WebGL or WebGPU
- 08:08:15 [dom]
- ... one issue for model viewer is stability for an HTML element - feels hard to reach
- 08:08:23 [ada]
- q+ to ask about a x-org web component?
- 08:08:33 [dom]
- Sushanth: main difference between JS and native, it seems to be about garbage collection
- 08:09:14 [dom]
- ... Wrt JS, can it achieve the same performance? Native can do multithreading, which even with workers would be hard to do with JS
- 08:09:34 [dom]
- ... native has the upperhand on this; they can also use platform primitives (e.g. on Apple)
- 08:09:45 [dom]
- Mounir: can WASM help wrt GC?
- 08:10:02 [dom]
- Sushanth: there are still issues when talking back to the DOM since that remains single-threaded
- 08:10:32 [dom]
- Zhiqiang: the tag would enable native performance, particularly important on mobile device
- 08:11:20 [dom]
- ... if we have a pre-defined tag, it enables any runtime to use gltf interactive format in a performant manner
- 08:11:40 [dom]
- ... we can integrate all the gltf spec features and bring a good 3D UX
- 08:12:05 [dom]
- cabanier: the low level bindings talk directly to the OS - we don't go through openGL in Magic Leap
- 08:12:10 [dom]
- ... you don't actually parse glTF in JS
- 08:12:19 [dom]
- q?
- 08:12:37 [dom]
- Zhiqiang: there are different levels - low vs high
- 08:13:19 [dom]
- ... if we want to just show a model with some common interface, I think if we can have a related tag for that, and hide all the processing we can get very good performance and power consumtion
- 08:13:25 [dom]
- q-
- 08:13:38 [dom]
- ... it also makes it easy for users to integrate content
- 08:14:01 [dom]
- ack klausw
- 08:14:15 [dom]
- klausw: wrt your native gltf proposal - excellent discussion there
- 08:14:20 [dom]
- ... unclear if a tag is ready
- 08:14:26 [dom]
- ... what if you want to compose models
- 08:14:28 [dom]
- ... it's uncelar
- 08:14:38 [dom]
- ... we shouldn't prematurely standardize things
- 08:14:51 [dom]
- ... I think it would be good to explore with JS solutions for a while
- 08:14:59 [dom]
- ... unless it's really unusable in JS land
- 08:15:11 [dom]
- ... it would be great to have a universally supported tag
- 08:15:18 [dom]
- ... on apple, you would need uszd
- 08:15:23 [dom]
- ... support
- 08:15:35 [dom]
- ... which you would have to take that into account in a model viewer
- 08:15:44 [dom]
- Zhiqiang: we can have different formats like in video
- 08:15:55 [dom]
- ... e.g. h264 vs vp8
- 08:16:08 [dom]
- ... I agree that we need to explore more before proceeding, with a polyfill
- 08:16:12 [dom]
- ack myles
- 08:16:36 [dom]
- Myles: at a high level, the combination of simplicity and perf is compelling, but several issues need to be addressed
- 08:16:48 [dom]
- ... different renderers across platforms with different capabilities
- 08:16:53 [dom]
- ... finding a common subset would be important
- 08:17:12 [dom]
- ... it would also be a shame if the animation and event didn't align with what is available in CSS
- 08:17:19 [dom]
- ... that requires lots of analysis
- 08:17:28 [dom]
- ack AmeliaBR
- 08:17:43 [dom]
- AmeliaBR: thank you for the presentation of the two proposals - very encouraging
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- 08:17:51 [dom]
- ... different priorities but similar approaches
- 08:18:05 [dom]
- ... having compared your proposals, any concerns on the one or the other?
- 08:18:17 [dom]
- ... will you work towards merging?
- 08:18:37 [dom]
- Sushanth: no much different between the proposals
- 08:18:52 [dom]
- Amelia: it sounds like xmodel is a high level blackbox like the img tag
- 08:19:03 [dom]
- ... whereas the native gltf proposal exposes more of the internal
- 08:19:18 [dom]
- ... and thus exposes some of the possible instability of the underlying format
- 08:19:38 [dom]
- ... the use cases may be a bit different
- 08:19:55 [dom]
- ... would be good to understand the differences of use cases and iterate on the features necessary to compare
- 08:20:01 [dom]
- ... iterate with custom elements
- 08:20:22 [dom]
- Zhiqiang: we've started sync-ing - we agree on the tag approach, overall the ideas are similar
- 08:20:29 [dom]
- ... a combination of a tag and native rendering
- 08:20:38 [dom]
- ... for better performance and quality
- 08:20:48 [dom]
- ... The JS API would also be useful for controlling the tag
- 08:20:55 [dom]
- ... it would also be useful in some cases
- 08:20:57 [dom]
- q?
- 08:21:09 [dom]
- ... we need more time to explore the use cases
- 08:21:21 [dom]
- ... the general idea seems to provide support in a simple way
- 08:21:50 [dom]
- Sushanth: are there any Web developers that would have similar needs to what e proposed?
- 08:21:59 [dom]
- Jared: I would use it
- 08:22:21 [dom]
- Dino: a few conflicting desires here
- 08:22:49 [dom]
- ... if you take the extensible Web manifest as gospel, this is a great example of starting with low level technologies and we're now getting feedback that people want a simpler approach
- 08:23:00 [dom]
- ... the downside is that you need interop
- 08:23:17 [dom]
- ... it's relatively easy for 2D (e.g PNG), but for 3D, you get very different rendering
- 08:23:27 [dom]
- ... we've even changed rendering across iOS versions
- 08:23:39 [dom]
- ... that's even truer across platforms and OSes
- 08:24:03 [dom]
- ... even if it's clear that's what the users want, there will still be significant challenges in interop in rendering
- 08:24:41 [dom]
- ... we've got feedback that taking a model from sketchfab and rendering in iOS led to unexpected results
- 08:24:43 [dom]
- ack ada
- 08:24:43 [Zakim]
- ada, you wanted to ask about a x-org web component?
- 08:24:50 [dom]
- ada: there are 4 different implementations of model viewers
- 08:25:08 [dom]
- ... would be worth collaborating on a single web compoennt to flesh out what web developers need
- 08:25:17 [dom]
- ... once that's done, standardizing something around it might be easier
- 08:25:28 [dom]
- ... it would already be awesome to work with CSS 3D Transforms
- 08:25:50 [dom]
- Sushanth: when you need to integrate a library to show models, this create resistance
- 08:26:00 [dom]
- ... even for a very popular libraries
- 08:26:15 [dom]
- Ada: it could live in the Immersive Web WG
- 08:26:19 [dom]
- RRSAgent, draft minutes
- 08:26:19 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-html-3d-minutes.html dom
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