01:30:10 RRSAgent has joined #html-3d 01:30:10 logging to https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-html-3d-irc 01:30:25 rrsagent, draft minutes 01:30:25 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-html-3d-minutes.html wseltzer 01:30:41 rrsagent, make logs public 01:48:48 koalie has joined #html-3d 01:49:04 RRSAgent, make logs public 01:49:06 koalie has changed the topic to: https://w3c.github.io/tpac-breakouts/sessions.html 01:49:09 koalie has left #html-3d 02:13:50 Roy has joined #html-3d 02:23:59 yaochangli has joined #html-3d 03:19:50 Guest19 has joined #html-3d 04:23:37 Guest19 has joined #html-3d 04:34:42 Roy has joined #html-3d 05:39:45 Roy has joined #html-3d 06:20:53 Roy has joined #html-3d 06:54:51 Roy has joined #html-3d 06:55:37 Zakim has joined #html-3d 06:55:47 RRSAgent, make minutes 06:55:47 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-html-3d-minutes.html Roy 06:56:33 Meeting: HTML 3D Element & Native glTF 07:02:56 RRSAgent, make minutes 07:02:56 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-html-3d-minutes.html Roy 07:10:11 zhiqiang has joined #html-3d 07:23:58 dom has joined #html-3d 07:28:12 xfq has joined #html-3d 07:30:27 xueyuan has joined #html-3d 07:31:20 Present+ 07:31:29 zhiqiang: good afternoon, everyone 07:31:39 Meeting: HTML 3D element & Native glTF 07:31:42 ... we will have two topic here 07:31:43 RRSAgent, make log public 07:31:50 suzuki has joined #html-3d 07:31:58 xfq_ has joined #html-3d 07:32:01 mdrimages has joined #html-3d 07:32:11 ... zhiqiang from Huawei, mobile platform 07:32:33 ... 3D is becoming a popular type of resource, much richer 07:32:48 shaoboyan has joined #html-3d 07:32:55 jiajia has joined #html-3d 07:32:59 ... to achieve more good experience 07:33:19 ... few example 07:33:46 ... System level 3D/AR Integration, all platform could play 3D 07:33:46 kzms2 has joined #html-3d 07:34:10 ... you could even use phone to do 3d model, there is a example for this 07:34:23 yigu has joined #html-3d 07:35:17 ... once more, for e-Commerce, we could use 3d model to do the goods show 07:35:46 ... social platform also suit for 3d 07:36:08 myles has joined #html-3d 07:36:10 present+ myles 07:36:11 ak has joined #html-3d 07:36:12 ... you also could use 3d model to show the search results 07:36:21 dino has joined #html-3d 07:36:28 Jared has joined #html-3d 07:36:34 jehdh has joined #html-3d 07:36:40 ... This is our Usage Scenario 07:36:50 klausw has joined #html-3d 07:37:04 ... cloud and client side could do interactive 07:37:05 cabanier has joined #html-3d 07:37:16 ada has joined #html-3d 07:37:26 ak_ has joined #html-3d 07:37:36 AmeliaBR has joined #html-3d 07:38:00 ... challenge here: low-level Web3D interface,Inconvenient, Web 3D Performance is not Good, No Easy way for content + processing sharing to do AR 07:38:06 xfq has joined #html-3d 07:38:19 xiaoqian has joined #html-3d 07:38:20 xfq has joined #html-3d 07:38:36 ... our goal is to single line of code to achieve AR and 3d 07:38:53 kip has joined #html-3d 07:39:02 ... this is gITF idea for 3d 07:39:12 s/gITF/glTF 07:39:20 ... there is a simple example of gITF 07:39:40 s/gITF/glTF 07:39:53 ... we bring something in mobile, here is the demo 07:40:31 ... quick app demo, you could use phone to put a car in surround area 07:40:41 ... with a specific tag 07:40:55 ... only one tag included 07:41:41 ... another demo, we could transit 3 model from one device to another 07:41:54 smfr has joined #html-3d 07:42:43 ... I will introduce the api later, we could use this API for the different device 07:43:11 ... 3d will have alive feather 07:43:44 ak has joined #html-3d 07:43:55 ... from developer side, we create something called xmodel 07:44:17 ... attributes list in slides 07:44:36 present+ 07:44:44 ... ar, autoplay = true... 07:44:59 ... simple view for the architecture 07:45:27 ... we have sceneView in native 07:46:06 ... there are some thoughts on standardlization 07:46:22 ... khnoros have some word on 3d 07:46:51 ... from W3C side, I want to proposal Xmodel as highlevel 07:47:07 ... also WebXR for lowlevel 07:47:41 ... there are some sample code from Apple, Google, MagicLeap 07:47:56 ... the last one are our code 07:48:01 q+ 07:48:03 q+ 07:48:17 present+ 07:48:19 ... 07:48:56 mounir has joined #html-3d 07:49:07 q? 07:49:16 q+ 07:49:36 q- 07:49:38 -> https://www.w3.org/2018/12/games-workshop/papers/new-html-3D-element.txt A new HTML element to display a 3D scene, Yasushi Ando (Kabuku Inc.) 07:49:38 q+ 07:50:22 -> https://www.w3.org/2018/12/games-workshop/ W3C Workshop on Web Games 07:50:24 Sushanth: I am come from Microsoft, from immersive WG 07:50:51 -> https://github.com/immersive-web/proposals/issues/52 Native GLTF #52 in Immersive Web CG 07:50:52 ... there is a proposal in immersive WG 07:51:21 -> https://github.com/immersive-web/spatial-favicons Spatial Favicons in Immersive Web CG 07:51:22 ... 3D usage in the web 07:51:58 RRSAgent, draft minutes 07:51:58 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-html-3d-minutes.html dom 07:52:06 ... you could find 3d people could use for e-commerce purpose 07:52:32 q+ 07:52:33 ... you could change the car color and give a house overview 07:52:40 q+ 07:52:46 ... or decorate a room 07:53:23 ... you could think about api in highlevel model 07:54:01 ... here is a model creat example 07:54:30 ... you could add model by code, its convinent 07:54:56 ... introduction for gLB and gLTF 07:55:33 ... gLTG JSON represents a scence graph 07:56:02 ... we have already done for implantation for gitf 2.0 07:56:09 ... @@ 07:56:34 ... there is a Demo, you will see a 3d demo 07:57:24 ... you could see the details for the model 07:57:40 q+ to ask about accessibility support in glTF in general, and its exposure in a Web browser 07:57:52 ... also we could change the color by gitf 07:58:56 ... there are something not including by gITF 07:59:13 scribenick: dom 07:59:50 Sushanth: we wanted to compare native with JS-based implementation from performance 08:00:02 ... I've used a synthetic benchmark to gauge performance 08:00:26 ... we put tons of gltf models together - you get much better fps in native vs threejs 08:00:42 ... in another test, we compare when we take animations into account - again big difference in performance 08:00:55 ... but that's only true when it uses CPU 08:01:17 ... native only addresses main-thread congestion - it only helps with CPU bottleneck 08:01:25 ... FPS is gated both by GPU and CPU 08:02:20 ... looking in more details, with the three.js based implementation, the bottleneck is the main thread 08:02:41 ... with the native implementation, the bottleneck is the GPU 08:02:50 ... there are opportunities to reduce congestion on the main thread 08:03:05 ... thinking about this further in comparing native vs js 08:03:25 ... you don't want to miss frames in a VR environment 08:03:48 ... another advantage might be to enable model protection - not sure if it's actually needed 08:04:08 ... please bring comments to Immersive Web Proposal github issue 08:04:13 q? 08:04:20 ack cabanier 08:04:28 cabanier: work for Magic Leap on the Helio browser 08:04:33 zhiqiang has joined #html-3d 08:04:35 q+ 08:04:40 ... we did introduce the model tag - it's a custom element, not a native HTML element 08:04:51 mdrimages has joined #html-3d 08:05:03 ... we could easily subtitute with another component e.g. the model-viewer component from Google 08:05:14 ... I don't think we need a tag as much as some low-level JS binding 08:05:39 ... people are very peculiar about how to integrate their model, it's hard to do it declaratively 08:05:48 ... I think an API to load a model and render sounds like a better approach 08:05:56 ... I'm happy to also give a demo with my device 08:06:24 ... the rendering is done directly by the OS in our case - the browser is a scene graph 08:06:25 mattwoodrow has joined #html-3d 08:06:34 ack mounir 08:06:46 mounir: some of my questions have been answered 08:07:06 ... what would be the main differences with the custom elements from Magic Leap and Google? 08:07:23 ... you mentioned accessibility - it would be good to hear about specific use cases 08:07:43 ... similarly to go down into more details in the performance issue - may be useful feedback for WebGL or WebGPU 08:08:15 ... one issue for model viewer is stability for an HTML element - feels hard to reach 08:08:23 q+ to ask about a x-org web component? 08:08:33 Sushanth: main difference between JS and native, it seems to be about garbage collection 08:09:14 ... Wrt JS, can it achieve the same performance? Native can do multithreading, which even with workers would be hard to do with JS 08:09:34 ... native has the upperhand on this; they can also use platform primitives (e.g. on Apple) 08:09:45 Mounir: can WASM help wrt GC? 08:10:02 Sushanth: there are still issues when talking back to the DOM since that remains single-threaded 08:10:32 Zhiqiang: the tag would enable native performance, particularly important on mobile device 08:11:20 ... if we have a pre-defined tag, it enables any runtime to use gltf interactive format in a performant manner 08:11:40 ... we can integrate all the gltf spec features and bring a good 3D UX 08:12:05 cabanier: the low level bindings talk directly to the OS - we don't go through openGL in Magic Leap 08:12:10 ... you don't actually parse glTF in JS 08:12:19 q? 08:12:37 Zhiqiang: there are different levels - low vs high 08:13:19 ... if we want to just show a model with some common interface, I think if we can have a related tag for that, and hide all the processing we can get very good performance and power consumtion 08:13:25 q- 08:13:38 ... it also makes it easy for users to integrate content 08:14:01 ack klausw 08:14:15 klausw: wrt your native gltf proposal - excellent discussion there 08:14:20 ... unclear if a tag is ready 08:14:26 ... what if you want to compose models 08:14:28 ... it's uncelar 08:14:38 ... we shouldn't prematurely standardize things 08:14:51 ... I think it would be good to explore with JS solutions for a while 08:14:59 ... unless it's really unusable in JS land 08:15:11 ... it would be great to have a universally supported tag 08:15:18 ... on apple, you would need uszd 08:15:23 ... support 08:15:35 ... which you would have to take that into account in a model viewer 08:15:44 Zhiqiang: we can have different formats like in video 08:15:55 ... e.g. h264 vs vp8 08:16:08 ... I agree that we need to explore more before proceeding, with a polyfill 08:16:12 ack myles 08:16:36 Myles: at a high level, the combination of simplicity and perf is compelling, but several issues need to be addressed 08:16:48 ... different renderers across platforms with different capabilities 08:16:53 ... finding a common subset would be important 08:17:12 ... it would also be a shame if the animation and event didn't align with what is available in CSS 08:17:19 ... that requires lots of analysis 08:17:28 ack AmeliaBR 08:17:43 AmeliaBR: thank you for the presentation of the two proposals - very encouraging 08:17:51 xfq has joined #html-3d 08:17:51 ... different priorities but similar approaches 08:18:05 ... having compared your proposals, any concerns on the one or the other? 08:18:17 ... will you work towards merging? 08:18:37 Sushanth: no much different between the proposals 08:18:52 Amelia: it sounds like xmodel is a high level blackbox like the img tag 08:19:03 ... whereas the native gltf proposal exposes more of the internal 08:19:18 ... and thus exposes some of the possible instability of the underlying format 08:19:38 ... the use cases may be a bit different 08:19:55 ... would be good to understand the differences of use cases and iterate on the features necessary to compare 08:20:01 ... iterate with custom elements 08:20:22 Zhiqiang: we've started sync-ing - we agree on the tag approach, overall the ideas are similar 08:20:29 ... a combination of a tag and native rendering 08:20:38 ... for better performance and quality 08:20:48 ... The JS API would also be useful for controlling the tag 08:20:55 ... it would also be useful in some cases 08:20:57 q? 08:21:09 ... we need more time to explore the use cases 08:21:21 ... the general idea seems to provide support in a simple way 08:21:50 Sushanth: are there any Web developers that would have similar needs to what e proposed? 08:21:59 Jared: I would use it 08:22:21 Dino: a few conflicting desires here 08:22:49 ... if you take the extensible Web manifest as gospel, this is a great example of starting with low level technologies and we're now getting feedback that people want a simpler approach 08:23:00 ... the downside is that you need interop 08:23:17 ... it's relatively easy for 2D (e.g PNG), but for 3D, you get very different rendering 08:23:27 ... we've even changed rendering across iOS versions 08:23:39 ... that's even truer across platforms and OSes 08:24:03 ... even if it's clear that's what the users want, there will still be significant challenges in interop in rendering 08:24:41 ... we've got feedback that taking a model from sketchfab and rendering in iOS led to unexpected results 08:24:43 ack ada 08:24:43 ada, you wanted to ask about a x-org web component? 08:24:50 ada: there are 4 different implementations of model viewers 08:25:08 ... would be worth collaborating on a single web compoennt to flesh out what web developers need 08:25:17 ... once that's done, standardizing something around it might be easier 08:25:28 ... it would already be awesome to work with CSS 3D Transforms 08:25:50 Sushanth: when you need to integrate a library to show models, this create resistance 08:26:00 ... even for a very popular libraries 08:26:15 Ada: it could live in the Immersive Web WG 08:26:19 RRSAgent, draft minutes 08:26:19 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-html-3d-minutes.html dom 08:26:23 Roy has joined #html-3d 08:28:29 smfr has joined #html-3d 08:28:57 dontcallmeDOM has joined #html-3d 08:30:38 xueyuan_ has joined #html-3d 08:30:53 myles has joined #html-3d 08:31:26 smfr has left #html-3d 08:33:02 dino has joined #html-3d 08:33:33 xiaoqian has joined #html-3d 08:37:02 xfq has joined #html-3d 08:37:10 xfq has left #html-3d 08:38:37 xueyuan_ has joined #html-3d 09:15:45 mattwoodrow has joined #html-3d 09:17:47 xueyuan has joined #html-3d 10:10:53 Guest19 has joined #html-3d 12:19:12 Guest19 has joined #html-3d 13:19:02 Zakim has left #html-3d 14:13:19 mattwoodrow has joined #html-3d