IRC log of future on 2019-09-18

Timestamps are in UTC.

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logging to https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-future-irc
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rrsagent, make logs public
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present+
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RRSAgent, make logs public
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04:30:01 [koalie]
koalie has changed the topic to: https://w3c.github.io/tpac-breakouts/sessions.html
04:30:26 [koalie]
meeting: Breakout: What is the Future of W3C
04:30:30 [yoshiaki]
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04:30:36 [tantek]
OMW
04:30:41 [koalie]
present+ Coralie_Mercier
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ScribeNick: fantasai
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present+ jeff
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present+
04:36:04 [florian]
present+
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04:36:18 [koalie]
mchampion, please join https://mit.webex.com/join/koalie
04:36:28 [koalie]
or US Toll Number +1-617-324-0000
04:36:38 [koalie]
meeting number: 649 613 453
04:36:38 [cwilso]
present+
04:36:46 [fantasai]
fantasai has changed the topic to: Future of W3C
04:36:50 [fantasai]
Topic: Future of W3C
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04:37:22 [dbaron]
present+
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04:38:39 [dsinger]
present+ dsinger
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present+
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present+
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present+
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present+
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04:39:13 [amy]
+tanya
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present+
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present+
04:39:26 [dsinger]
present+ amy
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04:39:45 [amy]
https://w3c.github.io/tpac-breakouts/sessions.html#future
04:39:46 [tantek]
https://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC/2019/SessionIdeas#What_is_the_Future_of_W3C
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04:40:00 [cwilso]
coralie, are you sure that's the webex?
04:40:09 [cwilso]
Mike said he's the only one on
04:40:12 [fantasai]
tantek: As some of you heard during AC meeting, there's a pretty big transition of W3C converting ot a legal entity
04:40:18 [Ralph]
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04:40:25 [Ralph]
present+
04:40:29 [fantasai]
tantek: as part of that a bunch of us are asking the questions of what really should be our goals with W3C, explicitly, especially towards the future
04:40:36 [fantasai]
tantek: so that we can provide that as input to how the legal entity is shaped
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04:40:45 [fantasai]
tantek: because there's lots of details, ways that transition will happen
04:40:48 [MichaelC]
present+
04:40:52 [fantasai]
tantek: one way would be to trust W3C Team to manage everything
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04:41:01 [fantasai]
tantek: don't think that everyone wants to delegate complete authority to Team
04:41:03 [heejin_]
present+
04:41:03 [JoeAndrieu]
present+ Joe_Andrieu
04:41:16 [fantasai]
tantek: W3C as a culture and org and community has always been multi-stakeholder, and trying to get consensus bfore moving forward
04:41:24 [fantasai]
tantek: with something so large, seemd appropriated to ask these questions
04:41:34 [fantasai]
tantek: mchampion and I brainstormed some questions to ask
04:41:49 [fantasai]
tantek: wanted this discussion to happen a bit more publicly, because a lot of discussion has been with smaller groups so far, and not necessarily in public venuses
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04:42:01 [fantasai]
tantek: whereas W3C has very broad impact on the world,Web, technology
04:42:01 [mchampion]
but don't worry, scribing is excellent
04:42:04 [fantasai]
tantek: three areas to reframe are
04:42:07 [fantasai]
tantek: what should mission be?
04:42:11 [fantasai]
tantek: how shoudl leadership work?
04:42:26 [fantasai]
tantek: how do we figure out what's the appropriate staffing model?
04:42:33 [fantasai]
tantek: lots of variable,s lots of possible paths
04:42:41 [fantasai]
tantek: we all share a desire for W3C to succeed and to thrive
04:42:48 [tantek]
q?
04:42:49 [cwilso]
q?
04:42:57 [dsinger]
q+ to Note we’ve already asked (a) is a consortium the right structure, or should we incorporate. (b)
04:43:20 [tantek]
q?
04:43:25 [tantek]
ack dsinger
04:43:25 [Zakim]
dsinger, you wanted to Note we’ve already asked (a) is a consortium the right structure, or should we incorporate. (b)
04:43:33 [fantasai]
dsinger: Would note, we asked 2 big questions already
04:43:44 [fantasai]
dsinger: 1) is Consortium structure right structure, or be a separate ientity
04:43:51 [Kris]
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04:43:53 [fantasai]
dsinger: 2) shoudl a Director-led structure better, or director-free
04:43:57 [fantasai]
dsinger: but also some questions we haven't asked
04:44:07 [fantasai]
dsinger: One is, we have a dues-heavy, staff-heavy consortium
04:44:11 [fantasai]
dsinger: IETF is almost exact opposite
04:44:16 [fantasai]
dsinger: is this the right model for next 25yrs?
04:44:24 [fantasai]
dsinger: something to consider
04:44:28 [koalie]
q+ travis
04:44:28 [tantek]
q?
04:44:32 [tantek]
ack trav
04:44:35 [fantasai]
dsinger: sensitive topic because involves real people
04:44:48 [fantasai]
Travis: beign dues-collecting organization has benefitted W3C, lots of great services and good infrastructure
04:44:55 [koalie]
RRSagent, make minutes
04:44:55 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-future-minutes.html koalie
04:44:55 [fantasai]
Travis: this meeting, TPAC, a lot of dues help pay for this
04:45:02 [fantasai]
Travis: don't have a lot of clarity on where dues go
04:45:12 [vivien]
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04:45:13 [amy]
I note the Director issue is one being discussed in the AB
04:45:19 [fantasai]
Travis: but wrt where to align on that spectrum, not going completely WHATWG no-dues would not be right answer
04:45:19 [koalie]
RRSagent, make minutes
04:45:19 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-future-minutes.html koalie
04:45:21 [vivien]
present+
04:45:24 [jeff]
q+ to comment on member model v individual model
04:45:24 [phila]
q+
04:45:26 [dbaron]
q+
04:45:47 [fantasai]
Travis: at AC meeting I heard a lot fo steps taken towards transitioning to legal entity
04:45:59 [fantasai]
Travis: wonder how much is locked away and unchangeable vs what can we impact and change today , unlcear
04:46:05 [cwilso]
q+
04:46:05 [tantek]
q?
04:46:24 [mnot]
q+
04:46:24 [fantasai]
florian: Until it happens, hasn't happened yet, so everything can change
04:46:35 [koalie]
present+ Tanya_Mandal
04:46:35 [yoshiaki]
present+
04:46:36 [fantasai]
florian: but already some level of consensus, difficult to re-negotiate
04:46:43 [fantasai]
florian: if something critically wrong, we shoudl change the plan
04:46:46 [koalie]
present+ Travis_Leithead
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04:46:56 [fantasai]
florian: if something workable but could be better, and has already been validated by host universities, harder to change
04:47:04 [fantasai]
florian: hasn't happened yet, so nothing stuck, but some amount of inertia
04:47:10 [mchampion]
present+ Mike_Champion
04:47:12 [fantasai]
fantasai: most things are open atm
04:47:13 [tantek]
q?
04:47:15 [koalie]
present+ Helen_Garneau
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04:47:25 [tantek]
ack jeff
04:47:25 [Zakim]
jeff, you wanted to comment on member model v individual model
04:47:29 [fantasai]
florian: 4 universities have given assent to a certain vision, can change anything, but some things more reluctance
04:47:31 [tantek]
q?
04:47:33 [mchampion]
q?
04:47:48 [fantasai]
jeff: dsinger raised question about dues-heavy, staff-heavy vs IETF
04:47:55 [fantasai]
jeff: want to describe my view, 2 questions underneath that
04:48:03 [fantasai]
jeff: IETF is not a Member organization, it's an individuals organization
04:48:18 [fantasai]
jeff: W3C is a Member organization, so lots different, e.g. patent policy structured around concept of Member
04:48:25 [fantasai]
jeff: in contrast with IETF, it's an issue
04:48:26 [koalie]
present+ Vivien_Lacourba, Martin_Duerst, Michael_Cooper, Judy_Brewer, Rachel_Comerford, Mark_Nottingham, Judy_Zhu
04:48:31 [fantasai]
jeff: wrt dues-heavy, staffing
04:48:43 [fantasai]
jeff: work that W3C Staff does, is work that happens IETF as well, someone does it
04:48:51 [tantek]
q?
04:48:52 [fantasai]
jeff: so I don't think companies aren't paying less for IETF
04:48:58 [fantasai]
jeff: just paying differently
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04:49:06 [fantasai]
jeff: IETF, companies consign their own employees to do that work
04:49:12 [fantasai]
jeff: here W3C staff does it through dues
04:49:21 [fantasai]
jeff: wrt locking things down, agree with Florian
04:49:25 [fantasai]
jeff: nothing irreversible has been done
04:49:33 [fantasai]
jeff: but, big loss of change is time
04:49:45 [fantasai]
jeff: W3M task force that tried to envision legal entity
04:49:45 [koalie]
present+ Ralph_Swick, Franck_Olivier, Yves_Lafon, Eric_Siow, Amy_van_der_Hiel, Karl_Dubost
04:49:49 [fantasai]
jeff: first TF was in 2015
04:49:54 [fantasai]
jeff: took 4 yrs to get this far
04:49:55 [koalie]
present+ Angel_Li
04:50:04 [fantasai]
jeff: if we decided to unwind every single decision and start over
04:50:08 [tantek]
q?
04:50:12 [fantasai]
jeff: wouldn't add 4 yrs maybe, but would elongate the process
04:50:17 [tantek]
ack phila
04:50:17 [fantasai]
jeff: so, make changes if important
04:50:31 [fantasai]
phila: Move to legal entity could be helpful
04:50:34 [tantek]
q?
04:50:35 [koalie]
present+ Avneesh_Singh
04:50:40 [fantasai]
phila: other I have worked for have other sources of income besides Membership
04:50:45 [fantasai]
phila: something W3C needs to explore
04:50:46 [koalie]
present+ Mike_Champion(remote)
04:50:53 [fantasai]
phila: in one case, we have a product license that ppl pay for
04:51:06 [fantasai]
phila: ODC makes money from its test metric program
04:51:18 [fantasai]
phila: W3C .... for free
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04:51:25 [tantek]
ack dbaron
04:51:35 [fantasai]
phila: but some other source of income would be necessary to support what authors passionate about
04:51:45 [fantasai]
dbaron: One aspect of beign a dues-paying organization, that has been difficult for awhile
04:51:53 [fantasai]
dbaron: Membership model has influence on who is in the conversation
04:51:55 [tantek]
s/beign/being
04:52:07 [fantasai]
dbaron: there's natural involvement from browsers in large companies
04:52:11 [fantasai]
dbaron: but hard for small companies
04:52:12 [tantek]
q?
04:52:18 [fantasai]
dbaron: IE model difficult to work with , admin hassle
04:52:22 [fantasai]
dbaron: this is a result of the dues model
04:52:40 [fantasai]
dbaron: I think having a Patent Policy that implies commitments from orgs is separate, should continue
04:52:48 [fantasai]
dbaron: WHATWG has that, but doesn't have organizational membership model
04:52:51 [fantasai]
dbaron: entirely detachable
04:52:52 [tantek]
q?
04:52:55 [tantek]
ack cwilso
04:53:09 [fantasai]
cwilso: Wanted to respond to dbaron's point
04:53:24 [koalie]
present+ Lawrence_Cheng
04:53:25 [fantasai]
cwilso: model at WHATWG, does require you to have organizational commitment if you are in an organization
04:53:39 [fantasai]
cwilso: by design, don't want an individual from org to drive things without ..
04:53:50 [fantasai]
dbaron: organizational IP commitment, not organizational commitment of money
04:54:00 [fantasai]
cwilso: challenge for me, tantekt's original essay of goals of conversation very apt
04:54:09 [fantasai]
cwilso: things most important to me are figuring out how to enable us to have
04:54:17 [fantasai]
cwilso: W3C's traditional mission statemtn is [..]
04:54:20 [fantasai]
cwilso: but slightly off
04:54:27 [fantasai]
cwilso: W3C's role is shepherding that goal
04:54:34 [fantasai]
cwilso: not guiding straight to solutiont
04:54:41 [fantasai]
cwilso: solutions come from large community of people
04:54:46 [fantasai]
cwilso: not one org or one individual
04:54:48 [fantasai]
cwilso: but role is challening
04:54:59 [fantasai]
cwilso: mechanics of consensus-building is very hard to do well, and W3C has provided value on
04:55:02 [koalie]
"coach driving the web to its full potential" ?
04:55:04 [florian]
q?
04:55:05 [tantek]
ack mnot
04:55:08 [fantasai]
cwilso: would like to see that role expand
04:55:13 [florian]
q+
04:55:30 [karl]
present+
04:55:32 [fantasai]
mnot: Interesting discussion fo rme, because I spent a fair amount time at W3C, then went away, then came back recently as prospective member
04:55:33 [tantek]
q+
04:55:38 [jeff]
q+ to comment on mission statement - and "who is W3C?"
04:55:42 [fantasai]
mnot: One thing my company interested in is what kind of org will be?
04:55:53 [fantasai]
mnot: When I look at the issues in W3C, I've always see 3
04:56:03 [fantasai]
mnot: one is aligned to director-free work that is ongoing, and happy with engagement there
04:56:09 [fantasai]
mnot: a lto of work, but getting attention
04:56:16 [fantasai]
mnot: host model is pretty broken, and that's being fixed
04:56:24 [fantasai]
mnot: last leg is Membership model
04:56:30 [fantasai]
mnot: that creates a lot of interesting incetives for Members
04:56:37 [fantasai]
mnot: incentives not completely aligned with best for future of Web
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04:56:43 [fantasai]
mnot: ....
04:56:59 [tantek]
q?
04:56:59 [fantasai]
mnot: You're right to bring it up, it's a sensitive topic, but important to consider what incentives
04:57:13 [fantasai]
amy: Can you explain more what you mean by disconnect?
04:57:36 [fantasai]
mnot: I've spent 20yrs watching W3C and IETF
04:57:43 [fantasai]
mnot: see differences in style of how work in each
04:57:49 [fantasai]
mnot: differences subtle, but important
04:58:10 [fantasai]
mnot: In the IETF, there's no Team, no Staff, only contractors for specified functions
04:58:18 [fantasai]
mnot: so admin work contracted out to secretary
04:58:24 [fantasai]
mnot: leadership for publishing standards
04:58:35 [fantasai]
mnot: ffor doing work, by body of people elected within the community
04:58:39 [fantasai]
mnot: much more community oriented approach
04:58:44 [dbaron]
s/elected/selected/
04:58:50 [fantasai]
mnot: for awhile I thought that the best outcome would be to take IETF model and drop into W3C
04:58:53 [fantasai]
mnot: don'tthink that's the case any more
04:58:58 [fantasai]
mnot: think it would be destructive
04:59:05 [fantasai]
mnot: but worth looking at that, and consider what happens
04:59:13 [fantasai]
mnot: when controversial thing, what happens?
04:59:21 [fantasai]
mnot: decide whether to take on new work or not? vs take on new membership
04:59:27 [fantasai]
mnot: very different than what happens at W3C
04:59:38 [fantasai]
mnot: not to cast aspersions on Team, lot of love and trust from W3C community
04:59:40 [eric]
Q+
04:59:40 [fantasai]
mnot: but worth exploring
04:59:49 [fantasai]
mnot: companies spend about same in IETF than W3C, jeff mentioned
04:59:55 [fantasai]
mnot: as rough yardstick, pretty true
05:00:00 [fantasai]
mnot: my company sends 10 ppl to IETF
05:00:03 [fantasai]
mnot: that's a lot of money
05:00:05 [fantasai]
mnot: set out in a different way
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05:00:10 [fantasai]
mnot: how that money gets used is very different
05:00:17 [fantasai]
mnot: serves contracts, creates stellar network?
05:00:27 [tantek]
s/network?/[wifi] network
05:00:28 [fantasai]
mnot: budget of IETF overall is less than W3C, although work done is much larger
05:00:33 [fantasai]
mnot: but not matter of just starting anew
05:00:44 [fantasai]
mnot: but having good discussion about role of Team and execute on functions
05:00:49 [fantasai]
mnot: and whether Membership is right model
05:00:56 [fantasai]
mnot: if have financial model that doesn't require $10 million
05:01:03 [fantasai]
mnot: that doesn't require paying money to get a vote
05:01:05 [fantasai]
mnot: changes things
05:01:13 [cwilso]
q?
05:01:17 [fantasai]
amy: This notion of Membership model becoming questionable
05:01:22 [fantasai]
amy: One value is one vote per organization
05:01:26 [fantasai]
malevels playing field
05:01:37 [fantasai]
amy: not question of most money, most reps in group
05:01:39 [phila]
q? to talk about one member one vote
05:01:42 [fantasai]
mnot: well worth considering
05:01:44 [fantasai]
mnot: tension
05:01:50 [fantasai]
mnot: real world, browsers have considerable amount of power
05:01:52 [cwilso]
q+ phila to talk about one member one vite
05:01:54 [fantasai]
mnot: one view of how it works
05:01:58 [cwilso]
s/vote/vite
05:02:03 [fantasai]
mnot: ppl come along and ask to change products
05:02:05 [fantasai]
mnot: willing to do that
05:02:05 [cwilso]
s/vite/vote
05:02:08 [fantasai]
mnot: ...
05:02:19 [tantek]
q?
05:02:21 [fantasai]
mnot: have to be concerned about organization being controlled by one or two companies
05:02:23 [koalie]
[Angel leaves]
05:02:25 [fantasai]
mnot: WHATWG ...
05:02:30 [phila]
q-
05:02:31 [tantek]
ack florian
05:02:32 [fantasai]
mnot: I'm never taking new work to WHATWG, because I don't have a say there
05:02:36 [fantasai]
mnot: not willing to be a serf
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05:02:46 [fantasai]
florian: If I understood correctly, what to agree with cwilso
05:02:54 [tantek]
s/what/want
05:02:58 [fantasai]
florian: for awhile, we've been following same model
05:03:06 [fantasai]
florian: large changes triggering us to consider future, strategy
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05:03:19 [fantasai]
florian: I don't think our strategy should be picking technical direction of Web
05:03:25 [fantasai]
florian: shoudl emerge from consensus of the organization
05:03:34 [fantasai]
florian: but tooling support, human support, what helps us best
05:03:40 [fantasai]
cwilso: tactics
05:03:44 [fantasai]
florian: should we have staff or not is not tactices
05:03:50 [fantasai]
florian: can't change this every 3 months
05:03:53 [tantek]
agrees with cwilso, how you spend the money is tactics
05:03:58 [fantasai]
florian: it's a strategic change to W3C
05:04:13 [fantasai]
florian: that type of consideration should dominate our strategy for being the best forum
05:04:17 [Travis]
q+
05:04:22 [fantasai]
florian: rather than best strategy for doing tthe best leading
05:04:23 [fantasai]
florian: ...
05:04:29 [cwilso]
q+ to say the there's organizational strategy for the W3c, but that's not the same as a strategy for the evolution and expansion of the web platform.
05:04:34 [fantasai]
florian: lots of discussion of "strategy" about which technology to follow, support,
05:04:38 [fantasai]
florian: but that's not our staretgy,
05:04:44 [fantasai]
florian: our strategy should be about being a venue
05:04:49 [fantasai]
florian: we can't be entirely tech agnostic
05:04:54 [tantek]
q?
05:04:59 [fantasai]
florian: but don't think as a consortium, picking tech is not the dominant strategy
05:05:02 [tantek]
ack tantek
05:05:19 [fantasai]
tantek: I think you're right, should be more about the venue than about assumption of leadership
05:05:19 [mnot_]
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05:05:25 [mnot_]
q+
05:05:30 [fantasai]
tantek: going back to three areas of discussion we set up
05:05:34 [fantasai]
tantek: 1st two, mission and leadership
05:05:48 [fantasai]
tantek: "lead web to its full potential" may have made sense 20 yrs ago, esp with timbl more actively invovled
05:05:53 [fantasai]
tantek: but no longer true, no longer actively involved
05:05:57 [Travis]
ack Travis
05:06:00 [fantasai]
tantek: leadership of Web doesn't happen at any one organization
05:06:06 [fantasai]
tantek: seems inaccurate at best, arrogant at worst
05:06:10 [Travis]
Tantec is making my point.
05:06:14 [fantasai]
tantek: so I put that out there as a challenge, to come up with a better mission statement for W3C
05:06:24 [fantasai]
tantek: something more accurate as of 2019, as of W3C without Tim
05:06:27 [tantek]
q?
05:06:31 [tantek]
ack jeff
05:06:31 [Zakim]
jeff, you wanted to comment on mission statement - and "who is W3C?"
05:06:33 [fantasai]
s/Tantec/Tantek
05:06:45 [mchampion]
q?
05:06:48 [dsinger]
q+
05:06:48 [fantasai]
jeff: W3C mission
05:06:49 [amy]
I note W3C is many organizations. it is a venue for many organizations to lead.
05:07:01 [fantasai]
jeff: My interpretation is W3C in that sentence has always been the W3C community
05:07:04 [fantasai]
jeff: not the W3C Team
05:07:11 [fantasai]
jeff: and I hope that that interpretation is shared by others
05:07:25 [Avneesh]
q+
05:07:26 [tantek]
q?
05:07:28 [tantek]
ack eric
05:07:29 [fantasai]
jeff: given that, think it's fine for W3C community to aspire to lead the Web to its full potential
05:07:42 [fantasai]
eric: First want to applaud leaders decided to organize this meeting
05:07:45 [cwilso]
s/interpretation/interpretation of the W3C's mission statement of "lead the Web to its full potential"
05:07:57 [fantasai]
eric: change is always hard, always threatening to those have been doing same thing over and over for many years
05:08:03 [fantasai]
eric: ever sicne I got onto AB, had members askin questions
05:08:11 [fantasai]
eric: why are spinning out and becoming a new LE
05:08:14 [fantasai]
eric: do we really need to?
05:08:19 [fantasai]
eric: from certain perspective, it makes sense
05:08:28 [fantasai]
eric: because of the complex structure of 4-hosts
05:08:33 [tantek]
q?
05:08:35 [Ralph]
[LE - Legal Entity]
05:08:37 [fantasai]
eric: no clear line of accountabilitiy, employees working for 4 institutions
05:08:44 [fantasai]
eric: from that perspective, makes sense to form LE
05:08:48 [fantasai]
eric: but I really agree with what Tantek says
05:09:00 [fantasai]
eric: as I was working with W3M to put together story to approch potential donors
05:09:06 [fantasai]
eric: one feedback from Coralie and others mentioned
05:09:14 [fantasai]
eric: the Web is no longer new thing, has been around for awhile
05:09:21 [fantasai]
eric: want donors to fund you
05:09:27 [fantasai]
eric: why fund you when MIT asking you to leave?
05:09:30 [fantasai]
eric: has to be a story
05:09:31 [koalie]
q+
05:09:35 [fantasai]
eric: we need to figure out where this thing is going
05:09:39 [fantasai]
eric: difficult question
05:09:42 [Yves]
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05:09:47 [tantek]
q+ to possibly ask about MIT (dis)connection given past few weeks
05:09:51 [fantasai]
eric: rather than figure out dues-paying heavy organization, or IETF-style
05:09:54 [fantasai]
eric: that's next level down
05:09:54 [koalie]
q+ to pitch the "web stories" breakout in the next slot
05:10:01 [fantasai]
eric: key question is what do we want this thing to be?
05:10:08 [fantasai]
eric: on AB, sense this tension between AB members and the Team
05:10:17 [fantasai]
eric: this is not an aspersion on Team working very hard
05:10:27 [fantasai]
eric: this involves real humans, need to be sensitive
05:10:35 [fantasai]
eric: but ppl working in W3C long time, this is really scary, don't know where it's going
05:10:39 [fantasai]
eric: but we need to approach this head-on
05:10:43 [fantasai]
eric: take all the ? and throw it away
05:10:44 [Travis]
q+
05:10:46 [fantasai]
s/?/past/
05:10:48 [phila]
q+ to tak about succession
05:10:56 [fantasai]
eric: W3C is made up of members, so we need to take charge and say, Tim is not coming back
05:11:03 [fantasai]
eric: moving forward, what do we want this thing to be?
05:11:08 [tantek]
q-
05:11:11 [florian]
q?
05:11:13 [tantek]
ack cwilso
05:11:14 [fantasai]
eric: let's figure that out first before figuring out struture of organization
05:11:14 [Zakim]
cwilso, you wanted to say the there's organizational strategy for the W3c, but that's not the same as a strategy for the evolution and expansion of the web platform.
05:11:24 [fantasai]
cwilso: Harkens back to what Florian said earlier
05:11:28 [fantasai]
cwilso: 2 things to separate
05:11:35 [fantasai]
cwilso: one is organizational strategy for how W3C operates
05:11:44 [fantasai]
cwilso: and other strategy of how Web expands and evovles
05:11:49 [fantasai]
cwilso: these always separate concerns
05:11:53 [fantasai]
cwilso: but moreso
05:12:02 [tantek]
q?
05:12:04 [fantasai]
cwilso: now that deciding LE, organization strategy
05:12:12 [fantasai]
cwilso: question of tie in/ competition with other platforms
05:12:26 [fantasai]
cwilso: those two things need to be handled separate
05:12:37 [tantek]
ack mnot_
05:12:39 [florian]
q?
05:12:48 [fantasai]
mnot_: on this question, I think I agree with Jeff, current mission is fine
05:12:54 [fantasai]
mnot_: could ? to acknowledge changes over time
05:12:59 [fantasai]
mnot_: put more precision around what Web means
05:13:10 [tantek]
q?
05:13:10 [fantasai]
mnot_: ongoing discussion for decades, is it the browser web or information space web?
05:13:25 [cwilso]
fwiw, I agree with "current mission is fine", with Jeff's caveat that this is the entire Consortium, not just the Staff.
05:13:26 [fantasai]
mnot_: what I would be very concerned about is removing the Web from the mission, making it a generic venue
05:13:30 [fantasai]
mnot_: we already have OASIS
05:13:31 [Ralph]
s/could ?/could possibly tweak the word "lead"/
05:13:35 [fantasai]
mnot_: don't want to make W3C another OASIS
05:13:44 [fantasai]
mnot_: need a veneue where we have shared mission, shared values
05:13:47 [tantek]
ack Avneesh
05:14:00 [fantasai]
Avneesh: when I joined AB, some months ago, my question was what ispurpose of W3C?
05:14:05 [fantasai]
Avneesh: why doing what we're doing?
05:14:12 [fantasai]
Avneesh: mission statement, different ways to look at it
05:14:26 [fantasai]
Avneesh: W3C as W3C staff, or W3C as whole community ...
05:14:31 [fantasai]
Avneesh: I was not much concerned about it
05:14:42 [fantasai]
Avneesh: my biggest concern was, what is meant by leading to full potential
05:14:46 [fantasai]
Avneesh: what is the full potential?
05:14:51 [fantasai]
Avneesh: what is our strategy and goals
05:14:55 [fantasai]
Avneesh: mission statement is fine
05:15:01 [fantasai]
Avneesh: but how can we quantify the goal?
05:15:06 [eric]
Q+
05:15:07 [fantasai]
Avneesh: take community in that direction?
05:15:25 [fantasai]
Avneesh: once we identify this, then it become how we can achieve oeprational efficiency, engage commnities, have different tech represented in W3C
05:15:28 [tantek]
ack Travis
05:15:54 [fantasai]
Travis: Want to touch on what Mark was saying, I think it's really important to focus on that mission, that strategy , what it means to take Web to full potential
05:16:08 [fantasai]
Travis: concerned with move to directorlees, we lose the vision of person leading us to that potential
05:16:23 [fantasai]
Travis: now who is it? Team? Community? who is doing the leading? seems upside down to me
05:16:26 [tantek]
(explain "peanutbuttered that down")
05:16:32 [tantek]
q?
05:16:34 [fantasai]
Travis: maybe we should look for new luminary, a replacement for Tim
05:16:38 [fantasai]
Travis: instead of a committee
05:16:42 [tantek]
ack koalie
05:16:42 [Zakim]
koalie, you wanted to pitch the "web stories" breakout in the next slot
05:16:44 [fantasai]
Travis: but if committee, needs to focus on mission
05:17:01 [florian]
q+
05:17:01 [fantasai]
koalie: I want to point, invite those interested in this room to join web stories session
05:17:08 [fantasai]
koalie: W3C Comm team wants to hear your teams
05:17:15 [tantek]
ack phila
05:17:15 [Zakim]
phila, you wanted to tak about succession
05:17:18 [fantasai]
s/teams/stories/
05:17:24 [fantasai]
koalie: ...
05:17:24 [cwilso]
q+ to ask how/where to continue the conversation started here
05:17:34 [fantasai]
phila: I'm fine with Web ... WEb not just browsers
05:17:37 [fantasai]
phila: focus on Tim leaving
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05:17:45 [fantasai]
phila: in next 4 yrs, W3C will lose a lot more than just Tim
05:17:52 [fantasai]
phila: will lose Ralph, Jeff, Ivan, others
05:17:52 [Travis]
s/peanutbuttered/spread out and distilled down/
05:17:58 [fantasai]
phila: many ppl will retire
05:18:03 [Ralph]
-> https://w3c.github.io/tpac-breakouts/sessions.html#webstories Web Stories breakout
05:18:06 [tantek]
q?
05:18:06 [fantasai]
phila: lose a lot of depth and experience through this process
05:18:14 [fantasai]
phila: not just Tim, and that changes
05:18:18 [tantek]
ack dsinger
05:18:27 [fantasai]
dsinger: wrt mission statement, I don't think it's perfect
05:18:37 [fantasai]
dsinger: but could spend vast amounts of time fiddling with the words, and doesn't have that much impact either
05:18:43 [fantasai]
dsinger: we use it in a generic way
05:18:53 [fantasai]
dsinger: looking outside for a luminary is also a mistake
05:19:04 [fantasai]
dsinger: don't need a sage, members join because they want to be involved
05:19:23 [tantek]
ack Yves
05:19:24 [fantasai]
tantek: want to ask again for participation from ppl who are not Team or AB
05:19:26 [mmerrell]
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05:19:34 [tantek]
q?
05:19:41 [fantasai]
Yves: to me, one role of the Team is also to annoy a bit the membership
05:19:45 [mmerrell]
luminaries help with getting sponsorships
05:19:46 [tantek]
now everyone on the queue is on the AB 😂
05:19:46 [cwilso]
the team is doing a GREAT job
05:19:47 [fantasai]
Yves: e.g. requiring horizontal reviews
05:19:53 [fantasai]
Yves: not something you may find in all organization
05:19:59 [fantasai]
Yves: Team being neutral helps that
05:20:07 [fantasai]
Yves: If we have model where all technical team is paid by Members
05:20:13 [Travis]
q+
05:20:15 [fantasai]
Yves: and act as Invited Expert
05:20:16 [koalie]
agenda+ Summary of the breakout
05:20:24 [fantasai]
Yves: will they perceive the same neutrality?
05:20:24 [tantek]
ack cwilso
05:20:24 [Zakim]
cwilso, you wanted to ask how/where to continue the conversation started here
05:20:44 [fantasai]
cwilso: Wanted to ask how both those leading this conversation, but everyone here, wants to continue this conersation
05:20:54 [fantasai]
cwilso: don't think magically solve all problems in next 5 minutes :)
05:20:58 [tantek]
q?
05:21:18 [fantasai]
mmerrell: My first session of any sort, but feels like some task force dedicated to succession planning should be priority
05:21:20 [Travis]
ack Travis
05:21:26 [tantek]
q?
05:21:27 [fantasai]
amy: Major topic of the Advisory Board
05:21:52 [fantasai]
mnot_: Suggest have a CG on the question
05:21:55 [jeff]
q+ to comment on venue for the discussion
05:22:11 [tantek]
q?
05:22:14 [fantasai]
mnot_: answer future model of the organzation question, [since other two concerns covered]
05:22:16 [koalie]
s/your teams/your "web stories"/
05:22:18 [tantek]
ack eric
05:22:43 [fantasai]
eric: I think need to bifurcate strategy or vision for Web and strategy or vision for W3C
05:22:51 [tantek]
q?
05:22:54 [fantasai]
eric: on the AB, come to realize that W3c the organiation / management team has no strategy
05:22:56 [koalie]
s/koalie: .../koalie: as the comm team want to tell a compelling story for the upcoming W3C "relaunch"
05:22:57 [fantasai]
eric: sorry
05:23:00 [fantasai]
eric: that comment hurts
05:23:06 [fantasai]
eric: but it really hit me between the eyes
05:23:17 [tantek]
q?
05:23:21 [fantasai]
eric: mangement team is more involved in technical blocking and tackling, how t bring in membership, raise revenue
05:23:29 [fantasai]
eric: if you ask mangement, in 3 yrs where will they be, no one can articulate that
05:23:40 [fantasai]
eric: but like I said, need to split between vision for Web / org
05:23:47 [fantasai]
eric: ifyou tackle question of vision for Web, very difficult one
05:23:55 [fantasai]
eric: this community is made up of multiple stakeyholders
05:23:59 [fantasai]
eric: each org has vision for the Web
05:24:03 [tantek]
q?
05:24:06 [tantek]
Zakim, close the q
05:24:06 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'close the q', tantek
05:24:07 [fantasai]
eric: coming up with a single mission is impossible
05:24:12 [fantasai]
eric: but from org strategy of W3C
05:24:14 [tantek]
Zakim, close the queue
05:24:14 [Zakim]
ok, tantek, the speaker queue is closed
05:24:15 [fantasai]
eric: Tim is gone
05:24:19 [fantasai]
eric: Web has been around awhile
05:24:22 [tantek]
q?
05:24:24 [mchampion]
q?
05:24:24 [fantasai]
eric: role of W3C is to facilitate the community
05:24:37 [fantasai]
eric: bring everyone together to allow debate, work to be possible
05:24:50 [fantasai]
eric: if you look at it that way, they you can address problem
05:24:55 [fantasai]
eric: rather than conflate two levels of the issue
05:25:02 [tantek]
ack jeff
05:25:02 [Zakim]
jeff, you wanted to comment on venue for the discussion
05:25:24 [fantasai]
jeff: Do want to comment on something earlier, what's venuse for continueing the conversation
05:25:31 [fantasai]
jeff: first, thanks Tantek for teeing up this discussion
05:25:38 [fantasai]
jeff: important, 
05:25:43 [fantasai]
jeff: like forthright way it is raised
05:25:50 [fantasai]
jeff: I am happy to join community in this conversation wherever
05:26:17 [fantasai]
jeff: Lastly, to the extent that community wants AB to take up discussion, AB will arrange priorities for next year in November
05:26:27 [dsinger]
I don’t think the AB has the brain cycles to take up a third Big Question (Legal Entity, and Director-Free being the first two)
05:26:29 [fantasai]
jeff: please encourage you to find your favorite AB members to identify your topics for next year
05:26:47 [fantasai]
Meeting closed.
05:27:16 [fantasai]
florian: I would also like to remind ppl to reach out to AB members not just during election cycles
05:27:26 [fantasai]
florian: having more frequent feedback from W3C community would be helpful
05:27:33 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-future-minutes.html fantasai
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05:28:43 [tantek]
fantasai++ thank you for minuting!
05:28:51 [fantasai]
welcome ^_^
05:29:30 [fantasai]
Overheard conversation: trust Team to be neutral on issues, less so on chartering
05:29:42 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-future-minutes.html fantasai
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05:38:50 [tantek]
RRSAgent, pointer?
05:38:50 [RRSAgent]
See https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-future-irc#T05-38-50
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