IRC log of future on 2019-09-18
Timestamps are in UTC.
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- logging to https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-future-irc
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- rrsagent, make logs public
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- present+
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- koalie has changed the topic to: https://w3c.github.io/tpac-breakouts/sessions.html
- 04:30:26 [koalie]
- meeting: Breakout: What is the Future of W3C
- 04:30:30 [yoshiaki]
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- 04:30:36 [tantek]
- OMW
- 04:30:41 [koalie]
- present+ Coralie_Mercier
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- 04:35:13 [fantasai]
- ScribeNick: fantasai
- 04:35:23 [jeff]
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- present+ jeff
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- 04:36:00 [jay]
- present+
- 04:36:04 [florian]
- present+
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- 04:36:18 [koalie]
- mchampion, please join https://mit.webex.com/join/koalie
- 04:36:28 [koalie]
- or US Toll Number +1-617-324-0000
- 04:36:38 [koalie]
- meeting number: 649 613 453
- 04:36:38 [cwilso]
- present+
- 04:36:46 [fantasai]
- fantasai has changed the topic to: Future of W3C
- 04:36:50 [fantasai]
- Topic: Future of W3C
- 04:37:15 [amy]
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- 04:37:22 [dbaron]
- present+
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- 04:38:39 [dsinger]
- present+ dsinger
- 04:39:01 [tantek]
- present+
- 04:39:02 [phila]
- present+
- 04:39:03 [amy]
- present+
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- present+
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- 04:39:13 [amy]
- +tanya
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- present+
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- present+
- 04:39:26 [dsinger]
- present+ amy
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- 04:39:45 [amy]
- https://w3c.github.io/tpac-breakouts/sessions.html#future
- 04:39:46 [tantek]
- https://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC/2019/SessionIdeas#What_is_the_Future_of_W3C
- 04:39:46 [Avneesh]
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- 04:40:00 [cwilso]
- coralie, are you sure that's the webex?
- 04:40:09 [cwilso]
- Mike said he's the only one on
- 04:40:12 [fantasai]
- tantek: As some of you heard during AC meeting, there's a pretty big transition of W3C converting ot a legal entity
- 04:40:18 [Ralph]
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- 04:40:25 [Ralph]
- present+
- 04:40:29 [fantasai]
- tantek: as part of that a bunch of us are asking the questions of what really should be our goals with W3C, explicitly, especially towards the future
- 04:40:36 [fantasai]
- tantek: so that we can provide that as input to how the legal entity is shaped
- 04:40:39 [JoeAndrieu]
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- 04:40:45 [MichaelC]
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- 04:40:45 [fantasai]
- tantek: because there's lots of details, ways that transition will happen
- 04:40:48 [MichaelC]
- present+
- 04:40:52 [fantasai]
- tantek: one way would be to trust W3C Team to manage everything
- 04:40:54 [heejin_]
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- 04:41:01 [fantasai]
- tantek: don't think that everyone wants to delegate complete authority to Team
- 04:41:03 [heejin_]
- present+
- 04:41:03 [JoeAndrieu]
- present+ Joe_Andrieu
- 04:41:16 [fantasai]
- tantek: W3C as a culture and org and community has always been multi-stakeholder, and trying to get consensus bfore moving forward
- 04:41:24 [fantasai]
- tantek: with something so large, seemd appropriated to ask these questions
- 04:41:34 [fantasai]
- tantek: mchampion and I brainstormed some questions to ask
- 04:41:49 [fantasai]
- tantek: wanted this discussion to happen a bit more publicly, because a lot of discussion has been with smaller groups so far, and not necessarily in public venuses
- 04:41:53 [mmerrell]
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- 04:42:01 [fantasai]
- tantek: whereas W3C has very broad impact on the world,Web, technology
- 04:42:01 [mchampion]
- but don't worry, scribing is excellent
- 04:42:04 [fantasai]
- tantek: three areas to reframe are
- 04:42:07 [fantasai]
- tantek: what should mission be?
- 04:42:11 [fantasai]
- tantek: how shoudl leadership work?
- 04:42:26 [fantasai]
- tantek: how do we figure out what's the appropriate staffing model?
- 04:42:33 [fantasai]
- tantek: lots of variable,s lots of possible paths
- 04:42:41 [fantasai]
- tantek: we all share a desire for W3C to succeed and to thrive
- 04:42:48 [tantek]
- q?
- 04:42:49 [cwilso]
- q?
- 04:42:57 [dsinger]
- q+ to Note we’ve already asked (a) is a consortium the right structure, or should we incorporate. (b)
- 04:43:20 [tantek]
- q?
- 04:43:25 [tantek]
- ack dsinger
- 04:43:25 [Zakim]
- dsinger, you wanted to Note we’ve already asked (a) is a consortium the right structure, or should we incorporate. (b)
- 04:43:33 [fantasai]
- dsinger: Would note, we asked 2 big questions already
- 04:43:44 [fantasai]
- dsinger: 1) is Consortium structure right structure, or be a separate ientity
- 04:43:51 [Kris]
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- 04:43:53 [fantasai]
- dsinger: 2) shoudl a Director-led structure better, or director-free
- 04:43:57 [fantasai]
- dsinger: but also some questions we haven't asked
- 04:44:07 [fantasai]
- dsinger: One is, we have a dues-heavy, staff-heavy consortium
- 04:44:11 [fantasai]
- dsinger: IETF is almost exact opposite
- 04:44:16 [fantasai]
- dsinger: is this the right model for next 25yrs?
- 04:44:24 [fantasai]
- dsinger: something to consider
- 04:44:28 [koalie]
- q+ travis
- 04:44:28 [tantek]
- q?
- 04:44:32 [tantek]
- ack trav
- 04:44:35 [fantasai]
- dsinger: sensitive topic because involves real people
- 04:44:48 [fantasai]
- Travis: beign dues-collecting organization has benefitted W3C, lots of great services and good infrastructure
- 04:44:55 [koalie]
- RRSagent, make minutes
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- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-future-minutes.html koalie
- 04:44:55 [fantasai]
- Travis: this meeting, TPAC, a lot of dues help pay for this
- 04:45:02 [fantasai]
- Travis: don't have a lot of clarity on where dues go
- 04:45:12 [vivien]
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- 04:45:13 [amy]
- I note the Director issue is one being discussed in the AB
- 04:45:19 [fantasai]
- Travis: but wrt where to align on that spectrum, not going completely WHATWG no-dues would not be right answer
- 04:45:19 [koalie]
- RRSagent, make minutes
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- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-future-minutes.html koalie
- 04:45:21 [vivien]
- present+
- 04:45:24 [jeff]
- q+ to comment on member model v individual model
- 04:45:24 [phila]
- q+
- 04:45:26 [dbaron]
- q+
- 04:45:47 [fantasai]
- Travis: at AC meeting I heard a lot fo steps taken towards transitioning to legal entity
- 04:45:59 [fantasai]
- Travis: wonder how much is locked away and unchangeable vs what can we impact and change today , unlcear
- 04:46:05 [cwilso]
- q+
- 04:46:05 [tantek]
- q?
- 04:46:24 [mnot]
- q+
- 04:46:24 [fantasai]
- florian: Until it happens, hasn't happened yet, so everything can change
- 04:46:35 [koalie]
- present+ Tanya_Mandal
- 04:46:35 [yoshiaki]
- present+
- 04:46:36 [fantasai]
- florian: but already some level of consensus, difficult to re-negotiate
- 04:46:43 [fantasai]
- florian: if something critically wrong, we shoudl change the plan
- 04:46:46 [koalie]
- present+ Travis_Leithead
- 04:46:50 [duerst]
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- 04:46:56 [fantasai]
- florian: if something workable but could be better, and has already been validated by host universities, harder to change
- 04:47:04 [fantasai]
- florian: hasn't happened yet, so nothing stuck, but some amount of inertia
- 04:47:10 [mchampion]
- present+ Mike_Champion
- 04:47:12 [fantasai]
- fantasai: most things are open atm
- 04:47:13 [tantek]
- q?
- 04:47:15 [koalie]
- present+ Helen_Garneau
- 04:47:21 [Judy-zhu]
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- 04:47:25 [tantek]
- ack jeff
- 04:47:25 [Zakim]
- jeff, you wanted to comment on member model v individual model
- 04:47:29 [fantasai]
- florian: 4 universities have given assent to a certain vision, can change anything, but some things more reluctance
- 04:47:31 [tantek]
- q?
- 04:47:33 [mchampion]
- q?
- 04:47:48 [fantasai]
- jeff: dsinger raised question about dues-heavy, staff-heavy vs IETF
- 04:47:55 [fantasai]
- jeff: want to describe my view, 2 questions underneath that
- 04:48:03 [fantasai]
- jeff: IETF is not a Member organization, it's an individuals organization
- 04:48:18 [fantasai]
- jeff: W3C is a Member organization, so lots different, e.g. patent policy structured around concept of Member
- 04:48:25 [fantasai]
- jeff: in contrast with IETF, it's an issue
- 04:48:26 [koalie]
- present+ Vivien_Lacourba, Martin_Duerst, Michael_Cooper, Judy_Brewer, Rachel_Comerford, Mark_Nottingham, Judy_Zhu
- 04:48:31 [fantasai]
- jeff: wrt dues-heavy, staffing
- 04:48:43 [fantasai]
- jeff: work that W3C Staff does, is work that happens IETF as well, someone does it
- 04:48:51 [tantek]
- q?
- 04:48:52 [fantasai]
- jeff: so I don't think companies aren't paying less for IETF
- 04:48:58 [fantasai]
- jeff: just paying differently
- 04:49:00 [Kris]
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- 04:49:06 [fantasai]
- jeff: IETF, companies consign their own employees to do that work
- 04:49:12 [fantasai]
- jeff: here W3C staff does it through dues
- 04:49:21 [fantasai]
- jeff: wrt locking things down, agree with Florian
- 04:49:25 [fantasai]
- jeff: nothing irreversible has been done
- 04:49:33 [fantasai]
- jeff: but, big loss of change is time
- 04:49:45 [fantasai]
- jeff: W3M task force that tried to envision legal entity
- 04:49:45 [koalie]
- present+ Ralph_Swick, Franck_Olivier, Yves_Lafon, Eric_Siow, Amy_van_der_Hiel, Karl_Dubost
- 04:49:49 [fantasai]
- jeff: first TF was in 2015
- 04:49:54 [fantasai]
- jeff: took 4 yrs to get this far
- 04:49:55 [koalie]
- present+ Angel_Li
- 04:50:04 [fantasai]
- jeff: if we decided to unwind every single decision and start over
- 04:50:08 [tantek]
- q?
- 04:50:12 [fantasai]
- jeff: wouldn't add 4 yrs maybe, but would elongate the process
- 04:50:17 [tantek]
- ack phila
- 04:50:17 [fantasai]
- jeff: so, make changes if important
- 04:50:31 [fantasai]
- phila: Move to legal entity could be helpful
- 04:50:34 [tantek]
- q?
- 04:50:35 [koalie]
- present+ Avneesh_Singh
- 04:50:40 [fantasai]
- phila: other I have worked for have other sources of income besides Membership
- 04:50:45 [fantasai]
- phila: something W3C needs to explore
- 04:50:46 [koalie]
- present+ Mike_Champion(remote)
- 04:50:53 [fantasai]
- phila: in one case, we have a product license that ppl pay for
- 04:51:06 [fantasai]
- phila: ODC makes money from its test metric program
- 04:51:18 [fantasai]
- phila: W3C .... for free
- 04:51:18 [karl]
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- 04:51:25 [tantek]
- ack dbaron
- 04:51:35 [fantasai]
- phila: but some other source of income would be necessary to support what authors passionate about
- 04:51:45 [fantasai]
- dbaron: One aspect of beign a dues-paying organization, that has been difficult for awhile
- 04:51:53 [fantasai]
- dbaron: Membership model has influence on who is in the conversation
- 04:51:55 [tantek]
- s/beign/being
- 04:52:07 [fantasai]
- dbaron: there's natural involvement from browsers in large companies
- 04:52:11 [fantasai]
- dbaron: but hard for small companies
- 04:52:12 [tantek]
- q?
- 04:52:18 [fantasai]
- dbaron: IE model difficult to work with , admin hassle
- 04:52:22 [fantasai]
- dbaron: this is a result of the dues model
- 04:52:40 [fantasai]
- dbaron: I think having a Patent Policy that implies commitments from orgs is separate, should continue
- 04:52:48 [fantasai]
- dbaron: WHATWG has that, but doesn't have organizational membership model
- 04:52:51 [fantasai]
- dbaron: entirely detachable
- 04:52:52 [tantek]
- q?
- 04:52:55 [tantek]
- ack cwilso
- 04:53:09 [fantasai]
- cwilso: Wanted to respond to dbaron's point
- 04:53:24 [koalie]
- present+ Lawrence_Cheng
- 04:53:25 [fantasai]
- cwilso: model at WHATWG, does require you to have organizational commitment if you are in an organization
- 04:53:39 [fantasai]
- cwilso: by design, don't want an individual from org to drive things without ..
- 04:53:50 [fantasai]
- dbaron: organizational IP commitment, not organizational commitment of money
- 04:54:00 [fantasai]
- cwilso: challenge for me, tantekt's original essay of goals of conversation very apt
- 04:54:09 [fantasai]
- cwilso: things most important to me are figuring out how to enable us to have
- 04:54:17 [fantasai]
- cwilso: W3C's traditional mission statemtn is [..]
- 04:54:20 [fantasai]
- cwilso: but slightly off
- 04:54:27 [fantasai]
- cwilso: W3C's role is shepherding that goal
- 04:54:34 [fantasai]
- cwilso: not guiding straight to solutiont
- 04:54:41 [fantasai]
- cwilso: solutions come from large community of people
- 04:54:46 [fantasai]
- cwilso: not one org or one individual
- 04:54:48 [fantasai]
- cwilso: but role is challening
- 04:54:59 [fantasai]
- cwilso: mechanics of consensus-building is very hard to do well, and W3C has provided value on
- 04:55:02 [koalie]
- "coach driving the web to its full potential" ?
- 04:55:04 [florian]
- q?
- 04:55:05 [tantek]
- ack mnot
- 04:55:08 [fantasai]
- cwilso: would like to see that role expand
- 04:55:13 [florian]
- q+
- 04:55:30 [karl]
- present+
- 04:55:32 [fantasai]
- mnot: Interesting discussion fo rme, because I spent a fair amount time at W3C, then went away, then came back recently as prospective member
- 04:55:33 [tantek]
- q+
- 04:55:38 [jeff]
- q+ to comment on mission statement - and "who is W3C?"
- 04:55:42 [fantasai]
- mnot: One thing my company interested in is what kind of org will be?
- 04:55:53 [fantasai]
- mnot: When I look at the issues in W3C, I've always see 3
- 04:56:03 [fantasai]
- mnot: one is aligned to director-free work that is ongoing, and happy with engagement there
- 04:56:09 [fantasai]
- mnot: a lto of work, but getting attention
- 04:56:16 [fantasai]
- mnot: host model is pretty broken, and that's being fixed
- 04:56:24 [fantasai]
- mnot: last leg is Membership model
- 04:56:30 [fantasai]
- mnot: that creates a lot of interesting incetives for Members
- 04:56:37 [fantasai]
- mnot: incentives not completely aligned with best for future of Web
- 04:56:38 [eric]
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- 04:56:43 [fantasai]
- mnot: ....
- 04:56:59 [tantek]
- q?
- 04:56:59 [fantasai]
- mnot: You're right to bring it up, it's a sensitive topic, but important to consider what incentives
- 04:57:13 [fantasai]
- amy: Can you explain more what you mean by disconnect?
- 04:57:36 [fantasai]
- mnot: I've spent 20yrs watching W3C and IETF
- 04:57:43 [fantasai]
- mnot: see differences in style of how work in each
- 04:57:49 [fantasai]
- mnot: differences subtle, but important
- 04:58:10 [fantasai]
- mnot: In the IETF, there's no Team, no Staff, only contractors for specified functions
- 04:58:18 [fantasai]
- mnot: so admin work contracted out to secretary
- 04:58:24 [fantasai]
- mnot: leadership for publishing standards
- 04:58:35 [fantasai]
- mnot: ffor doing work, by body of people elected within the community
- 04:58:39 [fantasai]
- mnot: much more community oriented approach
- 04:58:44 [dbaron]
- s/elected/selected/
- 04:58:50 [fantasai]
- mnot: for awhile I thought that the best outcome would be to take IETF model and drop into W3C
- 04:58:53 [fantasai]
- mnot: don'tthink that's the case any more
- 04:58:58 [fantasai]
- mnot: think it would be destructive
- 04:59:05 [fantasai]
- mnot: but worth looking at that, and consider what happens
- 04:59:13 [fantasai]
- mnot: when controversial thing, what happens?
- 04:59:21 [fantasai]
- mnot: decide whether to take on new work or not? vs take on new membership
- 04:59:27 [fantasai]
- mnot: very different than what happens at W3C
- 04:59:38 [fantasai]
- mnot: not to cast aspersions on Team, lot of love and trust from W3C community
- 04:59:40 [eric]
- Q+
- 04:59:40 [fantasai]
- mnot: but worth exploring
- 04:59:49 [fantasai]
- mnot: companies spend about same in IETF than W3C, jeff mentioned
- 04:59:55 [fantasai]
- mnot: as rough yardstick, pretty true
- 05:00:00 [fantasai]
- mnot: my company sends 10 ppl to IETF
- 05:00:03 [fantasai]
- mnot: that's a lot of money
- 05:00:05 [fantasai]
- mnot: set out in a different way
- 05:00:06 [angel]
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- 05:00:10 [fantasai]
- mnot: how that money gets used is very different
- 05:00:17 [fantasai]
- mnot: serves contracts, creates stellar network?
- 05:00:27 [tantek]
- s/network?/[wifi] network
- 05:00:28 [fantasai]
- mnot: budget of IETF overall is less than W3C, although work done is much larger
- 05:00:33 [fantasai]
- mnot: but not matter of just starting anew
- 05:00:44 [fantasai]
- mnot: but having good discussion about role of Team and execute on functions
- 05:00:49 [fantasai]
- mnot: and whether Membership is right model
- 05:00:56 [fantasai]
- mnot: if have financial model that doesn't require $10 million
- 05:01:03 [fantasai]
- mnot: that doesn't require paying money to get a vote
- 05:01:05 [fantasai]
- mnot: changes things
- 05:01:13 [cwilso]
- q?
- 05:01:17 [fantasai]
- amy: This notion of Membership model becoming questionable
- 05:01:22 [fantasai]
- amy: One value is one vote per organization
- 05:01:26 [fantasai]
- malevels playing field
- 05:01:37 [fantasai]
- amy: not question of most money, most reps in group
- 05:01:39 [phila]
- q? to talk about one member one vote
- 05:01:42 [fantasai]
- mnot: well worth considering
- 05:01:44 [fantasai]
- mnot: tension
- 05:01:50 [fantasai]
- mnot: real world, browsers have considerable amount of power
- 05:01:52 [cwilso]
- q+ phila to talk about one member one vite
- 05:01:54 [fantasai]
- mnot: one view of how it works
- 05:01:58 [cwilso]
- s/vote/vite
- 05:02:03 [fantasai]
- mnot: ppl come along and ask to change products
- 05:02:05 [fantasai]
- mnot: willing to do that
- 05:02:05 [cwilso]
- s/vite/vote
- 05:02:08 [fantasai]
- mnot: ...
- 05:02:19 [tantek]
- q?
- 05:02:21 [fantasai]
- mnot: have to be concerned about organization being controlled by one or two companies
- 05:02:23 [koalie]
- [Angel leaves]
- 05:02:25 [fantasai]
- mnot: WHATWG ...
- 05:02:30 [phila]
- q-
- 05:02:31 [tantek]
- ack florian
- 05:02:32 [fantasai]
- mnot: I'm never taking new work to WHATWG, because I don't have a say there
- 05:02:36 [fantasai]
- mnot: not willing to be a serf
- 05:02:39 [azaroth]
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- 05:02:40 [MichaelC]
- MichaelC has joined #future
- 05:02:46 [fantasai]
- florian: If I understood correctly, what to agree with cwilso
- 05:02:54 [tantek]
- s/what/want
- 05:02:58 [fantasai]
- florian: for awhile, we've been following same model
- 05:03:06 [fantasai]
- florian: large changes triggering us to consider future, strategy
- 05:03:07 [azaroth]
- azaroth has left #future
- 05:03:19 [fantasai]
- florian: I don't think our strategy should be picking technical direction of Web
- 05:03:25 [fantasai]
- florian: shoudl emerge from consensus of the organization
- 05:03:34 [fantasai]
- florian: but tooling support, human support, what helps us best
- 05:03:40 [fantasai]
- cwilso: tactics
- 05:03:44 [fantasai]
- florian: should we have staff or not is not tactices
- 05:03:50 [fantasai]
- florian: can't change this every 3 months
- 05:03:53 [tantek]
- agrees with cwilso, how you spend the money is tactics
- 05:03:58 [fantasai]
- florian: it's a strategic change to W3C
- 05:04:13 [fantasai]
- florian: that type of consideration should dominate our strategy for being the best forum
- 05:04:17 [Travis]
- q+
- 05:04:22 [fantasai]
- florian: rather than best strategy for doing tthe best leading
- 05:04:23 [fantasai]
- florian: ...
- 05:04:29 [cwilso]
- q+ to say the there's organizational strategy for the W3c, but that's not the same as a strategy for the evolution and expansion of the web platform.
- 05:04:34 [fantasai]
- florian: lots of discussion of "strategy" about which technology to follow, support,
- 05:04:38 [fantasai]
- florian: but that's not our staretgy,
- 05:04:44 [fantasai]
- florian: our strategy should be about being a venue
- 05:04:49 [fantasai]
- florian: we can't be entirely tech agnostic
- 05:04:54 [tantek]
- q?
- 05:04:59 [fantasai]
- florian: but don't think as a consortium, picking tech is not the dominant strategy
- 05:05:02 [tantek]
- ack tantek
- 05:05:19 [fantasai]
- tantek: I think you're right, should be more about the venue than about assumption of leadership
- 05:05:19 [mnot_]
- mnot_ has joined #future
- 05:05:25 [mnot_]
- q+
- 05:05:30 [fantasai]
- tantek: going back to three areas of discussion we set up
- 05:05:34 [fantasai]
- tantek: 1st two, mission and leadership
- 05:05:48 [fantasai]
- tantek: "lead web to its full potential" may have made sense 20 yrs ago, esp with timbl more actively invovled
- 05:05:53 [fantasai]
- tantek: but no longer true, no longer actively involved
- 05:05:57 [Travis]
- ack Travis
- 05:06:00 [fantasai]
- tantek: leadership of Web doesn't happen at any one organization
- 05:06:06 [fantasai]
- tantek: seems inaccurate at best, arrogant at worst
- 05:06:10 [Travis]
- Tantec is making my point.
- 05:06:14 [fantasai]
- tantek: so I put that out there as a challenge, to come up with a better mission statement for W3C
- 05:06:24 [fantasai]
- tantek: something more accurate as of 2019, as of W3C without Tim
- 05:06:27 [tantek]
- q?
- 05:06:31 [tantek]
- ack jeff
- 05:06:31 [Zakim]
- jeff, you wanted to comment on mission statement - and "who is W3C?"
- 05:06:33 [fantasai]
- s/Tantec/Tantek
- 05:06:45 [mchampion]
- q?
- 05:06:48 [dsinger]
- q+
- 05:06:48 [fantasai]
- jeff: W3C mission
- 05:06:49 [amy]
- I note W3C is many organizations. it is a venue for many organizations to lead.
- 05:07:01 [fantasai]
- jeff: My interpretation is W3C in that sentence has always been the W3C community
- 05:07:04 [fantasai]
- jeff: not the W3C Team
- 05:07:11 [fantasai]
- jeff: and I hope that that interpretation is shared by others
- 05:07:25 [Avneesh]
- q+
- 05:07:26 [tantek]
- q?
- 05:07:28 [tantek]
- ack eric
- 05:07:29 [fantasai]
- jeff: given that, think it's fine for W3C community to aspire to lead the Web to its full potential
- 05:07:42 [fantasai]
- eric: First want to applaud leaders decided to organize this meeting
- 05:07:45 [cwilso]
- s/interpretation/interpretation of the W3C's mission statement of "lead the Web to its full potential"
- 05:07:57 [fantasai]
- eric: change is always hard, always threatening to those have been doing same thing over and over for many years
- 05:08:03 [fantasai]
- eric: ever sicne I got onto AB, had members askin questions
- 05:08:11 [fantasai]
- eric: why are spinning out and becoming a new LE
- 05:08:14 [fantasai]
- eric: do we really need to?
- 05:08:19 [fantasai]
- eric: from certain perspective, it makes sense
- 05:08:28 [fantasai]
- eric: because of the complex structure of 4-hosts
- 05:08:33 [tantek]
- q?
- 05:08:35 [Ralph]
- [LE - Legal Entity]
- 05:08:37 [fantasai]
- eric: no clear line of accountabilitiy, employees working for 4 institutions
- 05:08:44 [fantasai]
- eric: from that perspective, makes sense to form LE
- 05:08:48 [fantasai]
- eric: but I really agree with what Tantek says
- 05:09:00 [fantasai]
- eric: as I was working with W3M to put together story to approch potential donors
- 05:09:06 [fantasai]
- eric: one feedback from Coralie and others mentioned
- 05:09:14 [fantasai]
- eric: the Web is no longer new thing, has been around for awhile
- 05:09:21 [fantasai]
- eric: want donors to fund you
- 05:09:27 [fantasai]
- eric: why fund you when MIT asking you to leave?
- 05:09:30 [fantasai]
- eric: has to be a story
- 05:09:31 [koalie]
- q+
- 05:09:35 [fantasai]
- eric: we need to figure out where this thing is going
- 05:09:39 [fantasai]
- eric: difficult question
- 05:09:42 [Yves]
- Yves has joined #future
- 05:09:47 [tantek]
- q+ to possibly ask about MIT (dis)connection given past few weeks
- 05:09:51 [fantasai]
- eric: rather than figure out dues-paying heavy organization, or IETF-style
- 05:09:54 [fantasai]
- eric: that's next level down
- 05:09:54 [koalie]
- q+ to pitch the "web stories" breakout in the next slot
- 05:10:01 [fantasai]
- eric: key question is what do we want this thing to be?
- 05:10:08 [fantasai]
- eric: on AB, sense this tension between AB members and the Team
- 05:10:17 [fantasai]
- eric: this is not an aspersion on Team working very hard
- 05:10:27 [fantasai]
- eric: this involves real humans, need to be sensitive
- 05:10:35 [fantasai]
- eric: but ppl working in W3C long time, this is really scary, don't know where it's going
- 05:10:39 [fantasai]
- eric: but we need to approach this head-on
- 05:10:43 [fantasai]
- eric: take all the ? and throw it away
- 05:10:44 [Travis]
- q+
- 05:10:46 [fantasai]
- s/?/past/
- 05:10:48 [phila]
- q+ to tak about succession
- 05:10:56 [fantasai]
- eric: W3C is made up of members, so we need to take charge and say, Tim is not coming back
- 05:11:03 [fantasai]
- eric: moving forward, what do we want this thing to be?
- 05:11:08 [tantek]
- q-
- 05:11:11 [florian]
- q?
- 05:11:13 [tantek]
- ack cwilso
- 05:11:14 [fantasai]
- eric: let's figure that out first before figuring out struture of organization
- 05:11:14 [Zakim]
- cwilso, you wanted to say the there's organizational strategy for the W3c, but that's not the same as a strategy for the evolution and expansion of the web platform.
- 05:11:24 [fantasai]
- cwilso: Harkens back to what Florian said earlier
- 05:11:28 [fantasai]
- cwilso: 2 things to separate
- 05:11:35 [fantasai]
- cwilso: one is organizational strategy for how W3C operates
- 05:11:44 [fantasai]
- cwilso: and other strategy of how Web expands and evovles
- 05:11:49 [fantasai]
- cwilso: these always separate concerns
- 05:11:53 [fantasai]
- cwilso: but moreso
- 05:12:02 [tantek]
- q?
- 05:12:04 [fantasai]
- cwilso: now that deciding LE, organization strategy
- 05:12:12 [fantasai]
- cwilso: question of tie in/ competition with other platforms
- 05:12:26 [fantasai]
- cwilso: those two things need to be handled separate
- 05:12:37 [tantek]
- ack mnot_
- 05:12:39 [florian]
- q?
- 05:12:48 [fantasai]
- mnot_: on this question, I think I agree with Jeff, current mission is fine
- 05:12:54 [fantasai]
- mnot_: could ? to acknowledge changes over time
- 05:12:59 [fantasai]
- mnot_: put more precision around what Web means
- 05:13:10 [tantek]
- q?
- 05:13:10 [fantasai]
- mnot_: ongoing discussion for decades, is it the browser web or information space web?
- 05:13:25 [cwilso]
- fwiw, I agree with "current mission is fine", with Jeff's caveat that this is the entire Consortium, not just the Staff.
- 05:13:26 [fantasai]
- mnot_: what I would be very concerned about is removing the Web from the mission, making it a generic venue
- 05:13:30 [fantasai]
- mnot_: we already have OASIS
- 05:13:31 [Ralph]
- s/could ?/could possibly tweak the word "lead"/
- 05:13:35 [fantasai]
- mnot_: don't want to make W3C another OASIS
- 05:13:44 [fantasai]
- mnot_: need a veneue where we have shared mission, shared values
- 05:13:47 [tantek]
- ack Avneesh
- 05:14:00 [fantasai]
- Avneesh: when I joined AB, some months ago, my question was what ispurpose of W3C?
- 05:14:05 [fantasai]
- Avneesh: why doing what we're doing?
- 05:14:12 [fantasai]
- Avneesh: mission statement, different ways to look at it
- 05:14:26 [fantasai]
- Avneesh: W3C as W3C staff, or W3C as whole community ...
- 05:14:31 [fantasai]
- Avneesh: I was not much concerned about it
- 05:14:42 [fantasai]
- Avneesh: my biggest concern was, what is meant by leading to full potential
- 05:14:46 [fantasai]
- Avneesh: what is the full potential?
- 05:14:51 [fantasai]
- Avneesh: what is our strategy and goals
- 05:14:55 [fantasai]
- Avneesh: mission statement is fine
- 05:15:01 [fantasai]
- Avneesh: but how can we quantify the goal?
- 05:15:06 [eric]
- Q+
- 05:15:07 [fantasai]
- Avneesh: take community in that direction?
- 05:15:25 [fantasai]
- Avneesh: once we identify this, then it become how we can achieve oeprational efficiency, engage commnities, have different tech represented in W3C
- 05:15:28 [tantek]
- ack Travis
- 05:15:54 [fantasai]
- Travis: Want to touch on what Mark was saying, I think it's really important to focus on that mission, that strategy , what it means to take Web to full potential
- 05:16:08 [fantasai]
- Travis: concerned with move to directorlees, we lose the vision of person leading us to that potential
- 05:16:23 [fantasai]
- Travis: now who is it? Team? Community? who is doing the leading? seems upside down to me
- 05:16:26 [tantek]
- (explain "peanutbuttered that down")
- 05:16:32 [tantek]
- q?
- 05:16:34 [fantasai]
- Travis: maybe we should look for new luminary, a replacement for Tim
- 05:16:38 [fantasai]
- Travis: instead of a committee
- 05:16:42 [tantek]
- ack koalie
- 05:16:42 [Zakim]
- koalie, you wanted to pitch the "web stories" breakout in the next slot
- 05:16:44 [fantasai]
- Travis: but if committee, needs to focus on mission
- 05:17:01 [florian]
- q+
- 05:17:01 [fantasai]
- koalie: I want to point, invite those interested in this room to join web stories session
- 05:17:08 [fantasai]
- koalie: W3C Comm team wants to hear your teams
- 05:17:15 [tantek]
- ack phila
- 05:17:15 [Zakim]
- phila, you wanted to tak about succession
- 05:17:18 [fantasai]
- s/teams/stories/
- 05:17:24 [fantasai]
- koalie: ...
- 05:17:24 [cwilso]
- q+ to ask how/where to continue the conversation started here
- 05:17:34 [fantasai]
- phila: I'm fine with Web ... WEb not just browsers
- 05:17:37 [fantasai]
- phila: focus on Tim leaving
- 05:17:37 [yoshiaki]
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- 05:17:45 [fantasai]
- phila: in next 4 yrs, W3C will lose a lot more than just Tim
- 05:17:52 [fantasai]
- phila: will lose Ralph, Jeff, Ivan, others
- 05:17:52 [Travis]
- s/peanutbuttered/spread out and distilled down/
- 05:17:58 [fantasai]
- phila: many ppl will retire
- 05:18:03 [Ralph]
- -> https://w3c.github.io/tpac-breakouts/sessions.html#webstories Web Stories breakout
- 05:18:06 [tantek]
- q?
- 05:18:06 [fantasai]
- phila: lose a lot of depth and experience through this process
- 05:18:14 [fantasai]
- phila: not just Tim, and that changes
- 05:18:18 [tantek]
- ack dsinger
- 05:18:27 [fantasai]
- dsinger: wrt mission statement, I don't think it's perfect
- 05:18:37 [fantasai]
- dsinger: but could spend vast amounts of time fiddling with the words, and doesn't have that much impact either
- 05:18:43 [fantasai]
- dsinger: we use it in a generic way
- 05:18:53 [fantasai]
- dsinger: looking outside for a luminary is also a mistake
- 05:19:04 [fantasai]
- dsinger: don't need a sage, members join because they want to be involved
- 05:19:23 [tantek]
- ack Yves
- 05:19:24 [fantasai]
- tantek: want to ask again for participation from ppl who are not Team or AB
- 05:19:26 [mmerrell]
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- 05:19:34 [tantek]
- q?
- 05:19:41 [fantasai]
- Yves: to me, one role of the Team is also to annoy a bit the membership
- 05:19:45 [mmerrell]
- luminaries help with getting sponsorships
- 05:19:46 [tantek]
- now everyone on the queue is on the AB 😂
- 05:19:46 [cwilso]
- the team is doing a GREAT job
- 05:19:47 [fantasai]
- Yves: e.g. requiring horizontal reviews
- 05:19:53 [fantasai]
- Yves: not something you may find in all organization
- 05:19:59 [fantasai]
- Yves: Team being neutral helps that
- 05:20:07 [fantasai]
- Yves: If we have model where all technical team is paid by Members
- 05:20:13 [Travis]
- q+
- 05:20:15 [fantasai]
- Yves: and act as Invited Expert
- 05:20:16 [koalie]
- agenda+ Summary of the breakout
- 05:20:24 [fantasai]
- Yves: will they perceive the same neutrality?
- 05:20:24 [tantek]
- ack cwilso
- 05:20:24 [Zakim]
- cwilso, you wanted to ask how/where to continue the conversation started here
- 05:20:44 [fantasai]
- cwilso: Wanted to ask how both those leading this conversation, but everyone here, wants to continue this conersation
- 05:20:54 [fantasai]
- cwilso: don't think magically solve all problems in next 5 minutes :)
- 05:20:58 [tantek]
- q?
- 05:21:18 [fantasai]
- mmerrell: My first session of any sort, but feels like some task force dedicated to succession planning should be priority
- 05:21:20 [Travis]
- ack Travis
- 05:21:26 [tantek]
- q?
- 05:21:27 [fantasai]
- amy: Major topic of the Advisory Board
- 05:21:52 [fantasai]
- mnot_: Suggest have a CG on the question
- 05:21:55 [jeff]
- q+ to comment on venue for the discussion
- 05:22:11 [tantek]
- q?
- 05:22:14 [fantasai]
- mnot_: answer future model of the organzation question, [since other two concerns covered]
- 05:22:16 [koalie]
- s/your teams/your "web stories"/
- 05:22:18 [tantek]
- ack eric
- 05:22:43 [fantasai]
- eric: I think need to bifurcate strategy or vision for Web and strategy or vision for W3C
- 05:22:51 [tantek]
- q?
- 05:22:54 [fantasai]
- eric: on the AB, come to realize that W3c the organiation / management team has no strategy
- 05:22:56 [koalie]
- s/koalie: .../koalie: as the comm team want to tell a compelling story for the upcoming W3C "relaunch"
- 05:22:57 [fantasai]
- eric: sorry
- 05:23:00 [fantasai]
- eric: that comment hurts
- 05:23:06 [fantasai]
- eric: but it really hit me between the eyes
- 05:23:17 [tantek]
- q?
- 05:23:21 [fantasai]
- eric: mangement team is more involved in technical blocking and tackling, how t bring in membership, raise revenue
- 05:23:29 [fantasai]
- eric: if you ask mangement, in 3 yrs where will they be, no one can articulate that
- 05:23:40 [fantasai]
- eric: but like I said, need to split between vision for Web / org
- 05:23:47 [fantasai]
- eric: ifyou tackle question of vision for Web, very difficult one
- 05:23:55 [fantasai]
- eric: this community is made up of multiple stakeyholders
- 05:23:59 [fantasai]
- eric: each org has vision for the Web
- 05:24:03 [tantek]
- q?
- 05:24:06 [tantek]
- Zakim, close the q
- 05:24:06 [Zakim]
- I don't understand 'close the q', tantek
- 05:24:07 [fantasai]
- eric: coming up with a single mission is impossible
- 05:24:12 [fantasai]
- eric: but from org strategy of W3C
- 05:24:14 [tantek]
- Zakim, close the queue
- 05:24:14 [Zakim]
- ok, tantek, the speaker queue is closed
- 05:24:15 [fantasai]
- eric: Tim is gone
- 05:24:19 [fantasai]
- eric: Web has been around awhile
- 05:24:22 [tantek]
- q?
- 05:24:24 [mchampion]
- q?
- 05:24:24 [fantasai]
- eric: role of W3C is to facilitate the community
- 05:24:37 [fantasai]
- eric: bring everyone together to allow debate, work to be possible
- 05:24:50 [fantasai]
- eric: if you look at it that way, they you can address problem
- 05:24:55 [fantasai]
- eric: rather than conflate two levels of the issue
- 05:25:02 [tantek]
- ack jeff
- 05:25:02 [Zakim]
- jeff, you wanted to comment on venue for the discussion
- 05:25:24 [fantasai]
- jeff: Do want to comment on something earlier, what's venuse for continueing the conversation
- 05:25:31 [fantasai]
- jeff: first, thanks Tantek for teeing up this discussion
- 05:25:38 [fantasai]
- jeff: important,
- 05:25:43 [fantasai]
- jeff: like forthright way it is raised
- 05:25:50 [fantasai]
- jeff: I am happy to join community in this conversation wherever
- 05:26:17 [fantasai]
- jeff: Lastly, to the extent that community wants AB to take up discussion, AB will arrange priorities for next year in November
- 05:26:27 [dsinger]
- I don’t think the AB has the brain cycles to take up a third Big Question (Legal Entity, and Director-Free being the first two)
- 05:26:29 [fantasai]
- jeff: please encourage you to find your favorite AB members to identify your topics for next year
- 05:26:47 [fantasai]
- Meeting closed.
- 05:27:16 [fantasai]
- florian: I would also like to remind ppl to reach out to AB members not just during election cycles
- 05:27:26 [fantasai]
- florian: having more frequent feedback from W3C community would be helpful
- 05:27:33 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-future-minutes.html fantasai
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- 05:28:43 [tantek]
- fantasai++ thank you for minuting!
- 05:28:51 [fantasai]
- welcome ^_^
- 05:29:30 [fantasai]
- Overheard conversation: trust Team to be neutral on issues, less so on chartering
- 05:29:42 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-future-minutes.html fantasai
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- 05:38:50 [tantek]
- RRSAgent, pointer?
- 05:38:50 [RRSAgent]
- See https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-future-irc#T05-38-50
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