IRC log of edge-computing on 2019-09-18
Timestamps are in UTC.
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- logging to https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-edge-computing-irc
- 01:45:59 [koalie]
- RRSAgent, make logs public
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- koalie has changed the topic to: https://w3c.github.io/tpac-breakouts/sessions.html
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- 07:22:35 [sudeep]
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- 07:22:57 [sudeep]
- https://www.w3.org/2019/07/31-web-networks-PrinciplesForWebNetworks.pdf
- 07:24:56 [sudeep]
- https://www.w3.org/2019/07/31-web-networks-TheviewfromtheEdge.pdf
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- 08:31:20 [dontcallmeDOM]
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- 08:31:41 [dontcallmeDOM]
- Meeting: Edge Computing for the Web
- 08:31:49 [dontcallmeDOM]
- RRSAgent, make log public
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- 08:33:14 [Kangchan]
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- 08:33:32 [dontcallmeDOM]
- scribenick: dontcallmeDOM
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- 08:34:53 [kimwooglae_]
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- 08:35:03 [dontcallmeDOM]
- DanD: we wanted to briefly introduce the concept of edge computing and how it relates to things developed alaredy in the cloud & networking space and how it may impact the Web
- 08:35:03 [xiaoqian]
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- 08:35:18 [dontcallmeDOM]
- ... I gave this presentation a couple of months ago to the Web & Networks IG
- 08:35:21 [hirata]
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- 08:35:30 [Gooroomee]
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- 08:35:40 [dontcallmeDOM]
- ... if you're interested on the topic, check it out - we're tackling issues related to how to expose network features to the Web layer
- 08:35:49 [dontcallmeDOM]
- ... [slide the view from the Edge]
- 08:35:58 [dontcallmeDOM]
- ... [basic idea of edge computing]
- 08:36:09 [dontcallmeDOM]
- ... historically, functionality has been split between client and server
- 08:36:33 [dontcallmeDOM]
- ... this has gone back and forth depending on evolution of computing power available on device and the capacity of the network
- 08:36:41 [dontcallmeDOM]
- ... this has evolved over the past 3 or 4 decades
- 08:36:54 [dontcallmeDOM]
- ... what we have now is the introduction of a 3rd piece in the architecture
- 08:37:13 [dontcallmeDOM]
- ... adding to client and server the edge, which can sit anywhere between the two (if at all)
- 08:37:34 [dontcallmeDOM]
- ... it's close to existing concepts, CDN, proxy browsers
- 08:37:43 [dontcallmeDOM]
- ... but compared to those, these are for static resources
- 08:37:58 [dontcallmeDOM]
- ... The edge is both an architectural and a deployment question
- 08:38:08 [dontcallmeDOM]
- s/question/paradigm shift/
- 08:38:41 [dontcallmeDOM]
- ... from a developer perspective, the edge piece can both be the client and the server
- 08:38:53 [dontcallmeDOM]
- ... the edge is defined by the administrative boundaries
- 08:39:04 [dontcallmeDOM]
- ... and it is associated with the network and data center topology
- 08:39:19 [ymatsuura]
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- 08:39:26 [dontcallmeDOM]
- ... a lot of the elements that (from a network operator perspective) consitute the network can be virtualized
- 08:39:40 [dontcallmeDOM]
- ... most of our network is moved to IP which frees real instate in geographic footprint
- 08:40:02 [dontcallmeDOM]
- ... if you're familiar with central offices where switches used to be, they are now facilities that are closer to the user and can serve as data centers
- 08:40:15 [dontcallmeDOM]
- ... [use cases - a 3 dimension approach]
- 08:40:26 [dontcallmeDOM]
- ... you have to look at use cases through different lenses
- 08:40:50 [ktoumura]
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- 08:40:51 [dontcallmeDOM]
- ... from a functional perspective, from a control & management perspective, from a location placement
- 08:41:30 [dontcallmeDOM]
- ... latency is definitely a key aspect since bringing functionalities to the edge help with reducing latency
- 08:41:39 [dontcallmeDOM]
- Michael: privacy would another requirement
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- 08:42:01 [dontcallmeDOM]
- DanD: this is not so much about requirements for edge apps as much as characteristics of apps that can benefit from edge computing
- 08:42:46 [dontcallmeDOM]
- ... Edge computing is also relevant now in the context of the deployment of 5G, with a disaggragation of functions in the network,
- 08:43:00 [dontcallmeDOM]
- ... network slicing can also create useful characteristics
- 08:43:08 [dontcallmeDOM]
- ... and a push to the edge among cloud providers
- 08:43:34 [dontcallmeDOM]
- ... An example on how this is relevant to the Web community
- 08:44:07 [dontcallmeDOM]
- ... assuming a Web app runs on the client that has a lot of workload on the client, you may want to find an edge node to shift your processing
- 08:44:38 [dontcallmeDOM]
- ... assuming a component has already been deployed in edge infrastructure - how would a client find it? how does it verify it satisfies the requirements for the appN
- 08:44:48 [dontcallmeDOM]
- ... how does it adapt to mobility circumstances?
- 08:44:52 [dontcallmeDOM]
- s/appN/app?/
- 08:45:04 [dontcallmeDOM]
- ... how does it adapt to congestion load on the node?
- 08:45:12 [dontcallmeDOM]
- ... this is mostly done as an agent to the OS at the moment
- 08:45:21 [dontcallmeDOM]
- ... WebApps could take advantage of these scenarios
- 08:45:53 [dontcallmeDOM]
- ... Assuming you've deployed your app on edge nodes e;g. in a cloud platform - how do you figure out the best one to find, how do you transition?
- 08:46:01 [dontcallmeDOM]
- ... this type of APIs might be worth exposing from the uA
- 08:46:04 [dontcallmeDOM]
- s/uA/UA/
- 08:46:17 [dontcallmeDOM]
- ... I don't know how this woudl be done, what security implications this would imply
- 08:46:26 [dontcallmeDOM]
- ... we want feedback and input on these questions
- 08:46:56 [jeff_]
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- 08:46:58 [dontcallmeDOM]
- ... ETSI Multi-Access Edge Computing provides APIs at the infrastructure level
- 08:47:16 [dontcallmeDOM]
- ... incl network conditions, location - but this is for the app running on the edge
- 08:47:21 [dontcallmeDOM]
- ... it doesn't involve the browser per se
- 08:47:33 [dontcallmeDOM]
- ... Another initiative is the Akarino project from the Linux Foundation
- 08:47:53 [dontcallmeDOM]
- ... it's an integration open source project that provides blueprint integrated hardware and software for specific use cases
- 08:47:59 [dontcallmeDOM]
- ... e.g. IoT, RAN deployment
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- 08:48:55 [dontcallmeDOM]
- Michael: there are many edge computing stacks under development
- 08:49:03 [dontcallmeDOM]
- ... In terms of use cases, there was browser offloading
- 08:49:16 [dontcallmeDOM]
- ... but there are also non-browser use cases, eg. orchestration
- 08:49:21 [dontcallmeDOM]
- ... some are compute-intensive, some not
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- 08:49:38 [dontcallmeDOM]
- ... also questions around data movement is a consideration
- 08:49:49 [dontcallmeDOM]
- ... you gain in compute but raises the time to transfer data back and forth
- 08:50:03 [dontcallmeDOM]
- ... We have an existing thing in W3C that could be extended to support this
- 08:50:07 [dontcallmeDOM]
- ... for instance ServiceWorker
- 08:50:10 [dontcallmeDOM]
- ... or PWA
- 08:50:16 [dontcallmeDOM]
- ... Micro-services are also related
- 08:50:40 [dontcallmeDOM]
- @@@Baidu: the CDN is classical in network architecture
- 08:50:52 [dontcallmeDOM]
- ... we're exploring distributed networks, e.g. P2P CDN
- 08:51:02 [xiaoqian]
- s/@@@Baidu/QQT
- 08:51:04 [MasayaIkeo]
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- 08:51:10 [dontcallmeDOM]
- ... if a browser want to support a P2P CDN, it needs a P2P API
- 08:51:40 [dontcallmeDOM]
- ... how does the browser support a P2P network distribution system?
- 08:52:04 [dontcallmeDOM]
- DanD: to design P2P + edge, finding the peers is something you would want to do very quickly
- 08:52:17 [dontcallmeDOM]
- ... finding the closest peer to you shouldn't involved going out to a far away data center
- 08:52:41 [dontcallmeDOM]
- ... when you design a P2P artchitecture, instead of going peer to server to peer, you could query an edge piece to find that information
- 08:52:55 [dontcallmeDOM]
- ... that would be a way to leverage the edge in a P2P network
- 08:53:10 [dontcallmeDOM]
- QQT: if we find a peer node, how do we connect to it?
- 08:53:17 [dontcallmeDOM]
- ... some nodes doesn't support HTTP, just UDP/TCP
- 08:53:21 [dontcallmeDOM]
- ... e.g. bittorrent
- 08:53:30 [dontcallmeDOM]
- DanD: what you put on the edge is up to you
- 08:53:37 [dontcallmeDOM]
- ... you have your own application that runs on the edge node
- 08:53:47 [dontcallmeDOM]
- ... it hosts your piece of the app
- 08:53:50 [dontcallmeDOM]
- ... you make it work
- 08:54:03 [dontcallmeDOM]
- Michael: another way to look at it is the edge as a set of available functions
- 08:54:17 [dontcallmeDOM]
- ... the question becomes what protocols can be made available
- 08:54:24 [dontcallmeDOM]
- ... the browser is mostly client-server model
- 08:54:34 [dontcallmeDOM]
- ... whereas things-based projects are more peer-to-peer
- 08:55:12 [dontcallmeDOM]
- ... Instead of looking at edge from a full-stack perspective, we can also look at it from a more functional perspective
- 08:55:20 [dontcallmeDOM]
- DanD: for P2P, WebRTC could be used
- 08:55:31 [dontcallmeDOM]
- QQT: WebRTC brings too much for this
- 08:55:38 [dontcallmeDOM]
- Michael: WoT supports multiple protocols
- 08:55:48 [dontcallmeDOM]
- ... we have a scripting API but we don't have a deployment model for it
- 08:55:59 [dontcallmeDOM]
- ... I've been wondering if this would be a good place to put that
- 08:56:05 [dontcallmeDOM]
- QQT: WoT is closer to the edge
- 08:56:14 [dontcallmeDOM]
- Michael: we want to have an environment to run the code
- 08:56:38 [dontcallmeDOM]
- Sudeep: is the question how do we discover the edge and we can use WoT protocols to do that
- 08:56:44 [dontcallmeDOM]
- ... and once we discover the edge, how do we offload?
- 08:56:49 [dontcallmeDOM]
- Michael: discovery is one problem
- 08:57:03 [dontcallmeDOM]
- ... another is management: how do I install some code and control it at run time?
- 08:57:13 [dontcallmeDOM]
- ... another is a provisioning environment
- 08:57:21 [dontcallmeDOM]
- DanD: Akaraino may actually solve this
- 08:57:38 [dontcallmeDOM]
- ... Blueprints go higher or lower in the stack
- 08:58:01 [dontcallmeDOM]
- Michael: from a high level, what gaps can W3C help in this context?
- 08:58:04 [shimazu]
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- 08:58:25 [dontcallmeDOM]
- ... without looking at specific stacks, what is W3C strength? what is the gap? what is the problem we can solve?
- 08:58:40 [dontcallmeDOM]
- ... we have the Web developers community, a certain collection of APIs that we can evolve
- 08:58:47 [dontcallmeDOM]
- ... can they be expanded to account for the edge?
- 08:58:55 [dontcallmeDOM]
- ... we also need to under the business models
- 08:59:14 [dontcallmeDOM]
- DanD: one thing I do want to point out - I keep mentioning that an app would need to be edge-aware, not edge-dependent
- 08:59:24 [dontcallmeDOM]
- ... you need a fallback in case an edge node cannot be found
- 08:59:42 [dontcallmeDOM]
- Michael: there are various mechanisms that we could extend
- 09:00:02 [dontcallmeDOM]
- ... e.g. considering serviceworker: you could transparently pushing it to the edge if available; if not, fallback on client serviceworker
- 09:00:26 [dontcallmeDOM]
- ... another approach would be microservices: the server could push some of its microservices to the edge
- 09:00:39 [dontcallmeDOM]
- ... but that is no longer in W3C's scope
- 09:00:48 [dontcallmeDOM]
- DanD: if you want to push this to serviceworker, it would need to be partly transparent to the developer
- 09:01:08 [dontcallmeDOM]
- Michael: I think that's one option that should be considered and developed
- 09:01:27 [dontcallmeDOM]
- ... not clear if this would be fully transparent, or with an hint, or with more developer control
- 09:01:37 [dontcallmeDOM]
- SOng: it's not just about discovering the edge node
- 09:01:50 [dontcallmeDOM]
- ... how can a Web developer invoke some interface to do discovery, connection?
- 09:02:10 [dontcallmeDOM]
- ... based on my experience from an operator perspective, the edge computing will support most services
- 09:02:18 [Yoshi]
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- 09:02:25 [dontcallmeDOM]
- ... for Web/HTTP requests, we need to speak with the infrastructure provider
- 09:02:33 [dontcallmeDOM]
- ... if not, there is no direct communication yet
- 09:02:46 [dontcallmeDOM]
- ... we need to get operators and device makers to support that - as soon as possible
- 09:02:55 [dontcallmeDOM]
- QQT: is there a way to access an edge node from HTTP?
- 09:03:18 [dontcallmeDOM]
- ... from the browser?
- 09:03:38 [dontcallmeDOM]
- DanD: Once you know where it is, you can use the browser HTTP stack
- 09:03:56 [dontcallmeDOM]
- QQT: but the edge node IP address can change all the time
- 09:04:42 [dontcallmeDOM]
- DanD: if I understand the requirement, you would try to find an edge node to find a local peer
- 09:05:12 [dontcallmeDOM]
- ... the edge node is an IP address
- 09:05:23 [dontcallmeDOM]
- ... to which you ask the best peer
- 09:05:32 [dontcallmeDOM]
- ... and then you shift your communications to it
- 09:05:40 [dontcallmeDOM]
- QQT: the results would provide some IP address then?
- 09:05:43 [dontcallmeDOM]
- DanD: right
- 09:05:57 [dontcallmeDOM]
- QQT: and we would use it to access to the edge node, with what protocol?
- 09:06:25 [dontcallmeDOM]
- ... HTTP? the problem is that we can't use HTTPS due to domain matching
- 09:06:39 [dontcallmeDOM]
- DanD: this isn't different from a deployment to the cloud
- 09:07:52 [dontcallmeDOM]
- Dom: but how do you map an IP address to a domain-based certificate for TLS?
- 09:08:03 [dontcallmeDOM]
- Michael: there is COmmunity Group that has been looking at this
- 09:08:11 [dontcallmeDOM]
- ... this has been bugging us for a while in Web of Things
- 09:08:28 [dontcallmeDOM]
- ... it's difficult to get support for this in browsers
- 09:08:58 [dontcallmeDOM]
- ... a local CA would work but can't work in browsers
- 09:09:14 [dontcallmeDOM]
- Dom: I don't think we have an answer to this at this time - it feels like a major challenge from a deployment perspective
- 09:09:53 [dontcallmeDOM]
- DanD: coming back to our broader discussion
- 09:10:08 [dontcallmeDOM]
- ... it would be interesting to look at what W3C could do
- 09:10:29 [dontcallmeDOM]
- ... with Michael's serviceworker approach, would this be like an edge browser after previous cloud browser?
- 09:10:40 [dontcallmeDOM]
- ... would we need to define what a client would look like?
- 09:10:46 [dontcallmeDOM]
- ... and what APIs it would expose?
- 09:11:03 [dontcallmeDOM]
- Michael: fwiw, I think this only solves a specific use case: browser offloading
- 09:11:23 [dontcallmeDOM]
- ... another issue is that serviceworker are very limited in terms of what APIs they can use
- 09:11:38 [dontcallmeDOM]
- ... for instance, having access to AI on the edge based on what is under development would be important
- 09:11:47 [dontcallmeDOM]
- ... ServiceWorker doesn't have filesystem support
- 09:11:52 [dontcallmeDOM]
- ... e.g. for persistent
- 09:12:48 [Chunming]
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- 09:13:00 [Chunming]
- present+
- 09:13:04 [Chunming]
- q?
- 09:14:09 [dontcallmeDOM]
- dom: cloudflare has a product with a serviceworker-based deployment for its cloud infrastructure
- 09:14:17 [dontcallmeDOM]
- ... which sounds interestingly similar to what we've discussed
- 09:14:32 [dontcallmeDOM]
- ... combined with the advent of Web Assembly on client/servers, lots of interesting opportunities
- 09:14:38 [dontcallmeDOM]
- ... although lots of unknowns
- 09:14:52 [dontcallmeDOM]
- DanD: one unknown would be to understand what features would be available to this "edge user agent"
- 09:14:58 [dontcallmeDOM]
- ... WebGL? WebML? others
- 09:15:33 [dontcallmeDOM]
- Michael: not sure if serviceworkers would have access to them
- 09:15:43 [dontcallmeDOM]
- Dom: maybe not now, but they could be adapted to new contexts
- 09:15:55 [dontcallmeDOM]
- Michael: WebAssembly can be thought as containers
- 09:16:07 [dontcallmeDOM]
- ... so this may be an opportunity for W3C to get into that space
- 09:16:28 [dontcallmeDOM]
- ... The other question is discovery - if I find a node, how do I deploy code to it?
- 09:16:44 [dontcallmeDOM]
- chunming: several years ago, W3C had generated a note about Cloud Browser architecture
- 09:16:56 [dontcallmeDOM]
- ... where a lot of the browser rendering was done in the cloud
- 09:17:19 [dontcallmeDOM]
- ... if we have edge in the middle, can we offload some of the browser tasks (e.g. time consuming calculation to the edge)
- 09:17:26 [dontcallmeDOM]
- ... e.g. to help battery, or better performance
- 09:17:44 [dontcallmeDOM]
- ... Another question - we heard of applications (e.g. AR or VR scenarios)
- 09:17:50 [ajitomi]
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- 09:17:52 [dontcallmeDOM]
- ... currently all the rendering happens in the device
- 09:18:11 [dontcallmeDOM]
- ... but there are use cases where e.g. AI detection tasks would be running in the edge
- 09:19:09 [dontcallmeDOM]
- DanD: the cloud browser was mostly focused for set top boxes for media
- 09:19:25 [dontcallmeDOM]
- ... it was to offload the settop box to the cloud e.g. for the fancy navigation
- 09:19:31 [dontcallmeDOM]
- ... in the end, the idea is the same
- 09:19:48 [dontcallmeDOM]
- ... between cloud browsers, split browsers with user interactions, proxies - this was done e.g. 20 years ago by Opera
- 09:20:07 [dontcallmeDOM]
- ... they did caching, transcoding, mapping between technologies to save bandwidth
- 09:20:11 [dontcallmeDOM]
- ... the concepts are very similar
- 09:20:17 [dontcallmeDOM]
- ... they had a browser running in the cloud
- 09:20:37 [dontcallmeDOM]
- ... if you think of what properties you want to offload to the edge, you can start identifying what an edge ua would look like
- 09:20:46 [dontcallmeDOM]
- ... and then you have to juggle between where to run these APIs
- 09:21:22 [dontcallmeDOM]
- ... if you tackle this problem by looking at how to run Web technologies to the cloud (closer or further), the question is what can be run with what security considerations?
- 09:21:27 [dontcallmeDOM]
- ... e.g. how to ask user permission?
- 09:22:27 [dontcallmeDOM]
- Dom: I would start with simple e.g. offloading computing
- 09:23:44 [dontcallmeDOM]
- Dom: follow up could happen in the Web & Networks IG
- 09:24:08 [xiaoqian]
- RRSAgent, make minutes
- 09:24:08 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-edge-computing-minutes.html xiaoqian
- 09:24:20 [xiaoqian]
- RRSAgent, make log public
- 09:25:19 [dontcallmeDOM]
- ... otherwise, or when we're ready to experiment/prototype, we could move to a dedicated CG to play with ServiceWorker
- 09:25:31 [dontcallmeDOM]
- ... the IG is probably the right place to explore the overall landscape
- 09:25:45 [dontcallmeDOM]
- Michael: WoT would want a lot more and very different things from the edge
- 09:26:55 [dontcallmeDOM]
- Dom: agree, but we probably want to start with low hanging fruits
- 09:27:18 [dontcallmeDOM]
- Michael: for WoT, you would want to install persistent orchestration service - setting new functionalities, now moving things up or down
- 09:27:38 [dontcallmeDOM]
- DanD: if people are interested, please join us in the Web & Networks IG
- 09:27:52 [dontcallmeDOM]
- ... we'll work on clarifying that particular topic and identify concrete next steps
- 09:28:09 [dontcallmeDOM]
- ... it seems there are ideas, probably not clear yet but worth exploring
- 09:28:17 [dontcallmeDOM]
- RRSAgent, draft minutes
- 09:28:17 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-edge-computing-minutes.html dontcallmeDOM
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