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01:41:49 <dom> RRSAgent, make log public
01:45:18 <dom> Meeting: A Non-Technical Discussion on Decentralized Identifier (DIDs) & Self-Sovereign Identity (SSI)
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01:57:39 <drummond> present+
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01:59:01 <drummond> RRSAgent, draft minutes
01:59:01 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-didtalk-minutes.html drummond
01:59:27 <drummond> scribe: drummond
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02:02:08 <nicktr> zakim, who is here?
02:02:08 <jay> present+
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02:02:18 <burn> present+
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02:03:02 <selfissued> present+
02:03:03 <drummond> Helen began by explaining it will be a non-technical discussion about how to talk about DIDs
02:03:06 <nicktr> q?
02:03:41 <drummond> The session objectives: 1) segment the audience, 2) simplify key terms, 3) connecting the dots to educate about DIDs
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02:03:57 <drummond> The first objective is to identify the audience first
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02:04:03 <nicktr> zakim, who is here?
02:04:03 <Zakim> Present: selfissued, phila
02:04:05 <Zakim> On IRC I see st, Yoshi, phila, Zakim, selfissued, tung, hirata, burn, ReinaldoFerraz, yoshiaki, Youngsun, takashi_, jay, nicktr, wonsuk, Masa, shimazu, dom, drummond, RRSAgent,
02:04:05 <Zakim> ... takuya, dlongley
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02:04:21 <drummond> ...Helen's background is in marketing, particularly in privacy and security, including for kids
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02:04:57 <vincent_k> present+
02:05:06 <drummond> ...Helen asked how many members of the DID WG were present. Roughly a dozen hands went up.
02:05:35 <drummond> ...several attendees are new to the DID space
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02:06:43 <drummond> ...Helen stressed that successful communication is conveying the minimum information the audience really knows
02:06:49 <Arnaud> Present+ Arnaud Le Hors
02:06:57 <drummond> ...do not bore them with unnecessary detail
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02:07:08 <burn> rrsagent, make logs public
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02:07:24 <burn> q?
02:07:26 <jfontana> present+
02:07:29 <laurent> present+
02:07:46 <drummond> ...she also talked about the "nod and smile" problem: this happens when the audience is unready to admit that they don't understand what you are saying
02:08:27 <drummond> ...Helen cited a Forrester report that talks about B2B websites that are drowning in jargon and self-serving info
02:08:46 <drummond> ...her third point was that "most journalists do not speak tech"
02:09:11 <nicktr> q?
02:09:15 <drummond> ...they do not have a real understanding of the technology
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02:10:01 <drummond> ...Helen asked what kinds of audiences the attendees of this session need to speak to?
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02:11:02 <burn> drummond: one of the audiences most interested in DIDs is chief marketing officers
02:11:13 <drummond> phila: supply chain execs and product managers
02:11:21 <burn> q?
02:11:33 <drummond> drummond: one interested audience is CMOs (Chief Marketing Officers) and their staff
02:12:30 <drummond> Helen's next point was about developing empathy. Put yourself in the mind of the audience. What do they need to know.
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02:13:08 <drummond> Helen showed a slide with the One Ring (from Lord of the Rings) and said people don't need to know what finger it was on
02:13:42 <Dudley> present+ Dudley_Collinson
02:13:43 <drummond> Helen showed a slide with the 5 key problems that DIDs address - understanding the audience's needs
02:14:06 <drummond> ...Helen emphasized that simplifying terms is very important
02:14:36 <drummond> ...she showed a slide of the "DID word soup" that often confronts people who want to start learning about DIDs
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02:15:37 <drummond> ... Helen said that use cases are another way to really help people understand a new technology - because they can see the uses for it
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02:16:28 <drummond> ... Helen showed a slide with 10 different use cases for DIDs: fintech, government, KYC, Banking, NGOs, healthcare, enterprise, law, security, education, travel
02:16:43 <burn> s/Helen showed/helen: showed/
02:17:08 <drummond> ??A: There is also a big problem in insurance and "insuretech"
02:17:26 <drummond> ... this is because insurance company's can't de-dupe the claims
02:17:43 <nicktr> s/??A/nicktr/
02:17:56 <drummond> ??B: the back-end processes of banks are also a huge target
02:18:11 <burn> q?
02:18:39 <nicktr> zakim, who is here?
02:18:39 <Zakim> Present: selfissued, phila, vincent_k, jeff, Arnaud, Le, Hors, jfontana, laurent, Dudley_Collinson
02:18:42 <Zakim> On IRC I see jc, wonsuk_, Dudley, laudrain, tung_, laurent, jfontana, Arnaud, jeff, tplooker, st, Yoshi, phila, Zakim, selfissued, hirata, burn, ReinaldoFerraz, yoshiaki, Youngsun,
02:18:42 <Zakim> ... takashi_, jay, nicktr, Masa, shimazu, dom, drummond, RRSAgent, takuya, dlongley
02:19:07 <drummond> Helen showed several sources for use cases: the Sovrin Foundation Use Case Repository, Hyperledger Case Studies, and a Draft Community Group Report February 2019
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02:19:53 <nicktr> s/??B/vkuntz/
02:19:55 <drummond> ... Helen mentioned a particular use case of the Province of British Columbia using DIDs for verifiable credentials for businesses
02:20:38 <drummond> ... Helen shows a table from the W3C CCG Use Cases document about 14 features of DIDs
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02:21:36 <drummond> ... and then she referenced the 10 Goals of DIDs that are listed in the W3C Credentials Community Group Community Final Draft of the DID Specification
02:22:29 <drummond> ... Helen next talked about the visit of the PING (Privacy Interest Group) to the DID WG yesterday and the descriptions given by WG members to the PING co-chairs
02:23:19 <burn> drummond: they didn't have deep knowledge about DIDs, but about privacy.  Great example of a connection.
02:23:57 <drummond> ... Several definitions were given, and Helen pointed out that there was not any single explanation that will always work
02:24:44 <jeff> q+
02:25:00 <drummond> ??C: Said that he has not heard very clear arguments about why a new identifier is needed for some of these use cases
02:25:02 <phila> q+
02:25:06 <burn> q?
02:25:07 <burn> q+
02:25:37 <drummond> ... what he has never heard described very well is "what is it that DIDs bring to the table that those other identifiers do not"
02:26:11 <nicktr> s/??C/IvanH/
02:26:12 <burn> ack jeff
02:26:14 <drummond> ... instead he is drowned in other arguments about what DIDs can be used for, but not precise descriptions of the differences
02:26:47 <burn> ack phila
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02:27:00 <drummond> jeff: Feels the most relevant thing is the positioning of DIDs vs. alternatives. Everything else is less relevant.
02:27:23 <drummond> phila: I work for GS1 that produces identifiers for the whole IoT and supply chain.
02:27:49 <drummond> ... the GS1 identifiers are federated, so decentralized to some extent
02:28:04 <nicktr> q?
02:28:12 <drummond> ... the problem that Phil wants to solve is making their identifiers all resolvable, which they are not all today
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02:28:32 <drummond> ... so Phil considers that the biggest difference is that DIDs are cryptographically-verifiable
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02:28:39 <burn> ack burn
02:29:07 <drummond> burn: Is always thinking about how he explains DIDs to someone who is not technical (like his parents)
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02:29:50 <pamela> q+
02:29:53 <drummond> ... gives the example of wanting a bag of fertilizer, then a pallet, then a truckload.
02:30:19 <drummond> ... But only if you ask questions about the truckload, then questions come up
02:30:32 <drummond> ... that's what leads to the need for verifiable credentials
02:30:54 <drummond> ... verifiable credentials have issuer identifiers and subject identifiers
02:31:07 <drummond> ... and privacy is quite important for these identifiers
02:31:33 <drummond> ... the first idea was to just leave it open in the spec and allow any kind of identifier
02:31:40 <drummond> ... such as email addresses or URIs
02:32:20 <drummond> ... but as they considered it, they realized that both email addresses and DNS-based identifiers are controlled by administrative authorities and can be taken away from you
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02:32:56 <drummond> ... and with verifiable credentials, not having to rely on an outside administrator is a big advantage
02:33:07 <burn> ack pamela
02:33:18 <drummond> ... and one is able to prove control
02:33:38 <drummond> pamela: the words "crypto" and "resolvable" will lose an audience
02:33:43 <nicktr> +1 to Pamela - crypto brings immediate FUD to the conversation
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02:34:13 <nicktr> q?
02:34:50 <drummond> ... the way Pamela tells the analogy of putting clothes on a clothesline: today you are going around putting your clothes on other's clothelines, and with DIDs you can put it all on your own clothesline
02:35:16 <jeff> q+
02:35:24 <burn> ack jeff
02:35:40 <drummond> selfissued: DIDs are plumbing and thus, like IP addresses and URLs, we shouldn't try to have people need to understand them
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02:35:43 <drummond> q+
02:36:17 <drummond> jeff: agrees that they are plumbing, so lay people don't need to know them, but engineers do need to know them, and also product managers
02:36:36 <burn> ack drummond
02:36:39 <drummond> selfissued: Agrees that it depends on the general audience
02:36:47 <phila> scribe: phila
02:36:51 <burn> q+
02:36:53 <phila> drummond: I agree that DIDs are plumbing
02:37:08 <phila> ... the Web depends on URIs and people understand that
02:37:23 <phila> ... the impact of DIDs ends up being addresses that are crypto verifiable
02:37:32 <phila> ... so they have more trust than URLs, even https
02:37:48 <phila> ... to jeff's point - positioning does indeed resonate
02:38:00 <phila> ... early interest in DIDs came out of blockchain
02:38:16 <phila> ... you want to engage blockchain audience, start with block chain
02:38:35 <phila> helen: decision makers don't understand blockchain
02:38:41 <nicktr> q?
02:38:51 <burn> q+ ivan
02:39:08 <phila> drummond: Helen's right - I talk about bc day in day out - audience is usually blockchain invasion teams everywhere
02:39:21 <phila> ... So talking to them means starting with how DIDs apply to blockchain
02:39:43 <burn> ack burn
02:39:44 <phila> ... Execs - I don't take that approach. I do what Dan did and starts with verfiable credetials
02:39:49 <phila> scribe: drummond
02:40:17 <drummond> burn: Has seen plenty of examples of plumbing that people don't want to think about
02:40:35 <drummond> ... there are also many misconceptions about "identity" and how it works
02:41:14 <drummond> ... to some extent it is an emergent phenomenon from many different interactions and contexts
02:41:35 <drummond> ... with DIDs you can make this work across many relationships
02:42:05 <drummond> ... to use Pamela's analogy, it's like being able to have as many clothesline as you want - one DID for each clothesline
02:42:19 <nicktr> q?
02:42:30 <nicktr> q- ivan
02:42:36 <drummond> ... so DIDs are actually "bring your own identifier" (BYOI) - as long as you can prove you control it, the company will use it
02:42:59 <drummond> ... Helen then transitioned to her point about the importance of using graphics
02:43:28 <drummond> ... she showed an example of how the Sovrin Foundation communicates about DIDs and verifiable credentials with a high-level diagram
02:43:41 <burn> s/... Helen then transitioned/Helen: Helen then transitioned/
02:43:46 <drummond> ... these are friendly and approachable to a broad audience
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02:45:29 <drummond> ... Helen used the analogy of how easy it is to cash to buy something at a restaurant in person, vs. how awkward it is (and privacy encroaching) on the Web
02:46:15 <drummond> ... Helen next showed a four layer diagram that the Sovrin Foundation uses to talk about how something works
02:46:51 <burn> q?
02:46:53 <drummond> ... Helen said that using metaphors works very well; people can relate to these metaphors
02:47:26 <drummond> ... Helen next talked about "register": how your writing sounds when you are describing technology.
02:47:41 <drummond> ... a "formal register" is typically academic
02:47:52 <drummond> ... a "news register" is like journalism
02:48:20 <drummond> ... "personal" or "informal register" makes it sound more direct and identifiable
02:48:59 <drummond> ... she also recommends using simple words and not trying to pack into too much technical description
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02:49:49 <drummond> ... Helen showed a slide of general tips for writing about a technology
02:50:02 <drummond> ... try to use words that the audience can related to and remember
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02:51:21 <drummond> ... Summary points: 1) convey meaning quickly and clearly, 2) Most generalists don't speak tech, 3) see slides for the rest
02:51:29 <burn> q?
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02:54:19 <drummond> ... Helen then showed a popular video a wonderful parody of technospeak to remind everyone not to "be that guy"
02:54:29 <burn> rrsagent, draft minutes
02:54:29 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-didtalk-minutes.html burn
02:56:23 <drummond> Link: https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1O_jjvRtTsmFSucuw3LdtaVewCRMiX3DmmajT_h20a4w/edit?usp=sharing
02:56:39 <nicktr> rrsagent, draft minutes
02:56:39 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-didtalk-minutes.html nicktr
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05:48:27 <nicktr> zakim, bye
05:48:38 <nicktr> rrsagent, bye
05:48:38 <RRSAgent> I see no action items