IRC log of didtalk on 2019-09-18
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 01:41:41 [RRSAgent]
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- logging to https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-didtalk-irc
- 01:41:49 [dom]
- RRSAgent, make log public
- 01:45:18 [dom]
- Meeting: A Non-Technical Discussion on Decentralized Identifier (DIDs) & Self-Sovereign Identity (SSI)
- 01:56:25 [drummond]
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- present+
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- 01:59:01 [drummond]
- RRSAgent, draft minutes
- 01:59:01 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-didtalk-minutes.html drummond
- 01:59:27 [drummond]
- scribe: drummond
- 02:00:18 [Masa]
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- 02:01:19 [wonsuk]
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- 02:01:47 [nicktr]
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- 02:01:52 [jay]
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- 02:01:54 [takashi_]
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- 02:01:56 [Youngsun]
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- 02:02:00 [yoshiaki]
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- 02:02:00 [nicktr]
- present+ nicktr
- 02:02:01 [ReinaldoFerraz]
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- 02:02:08 [nicktr]
- zakim, who is here?
- 02:02:08 [jay]
- present+
- 02:02:11 [burn]
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- 02:02:12 [ReinaldoFerraz]
- present+
- 02:02:18 [burn]
- present+
- 02:02:28 [hirata]
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- 02:02:42 [tung]
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- 02:02:44 [selfissued]
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- 02:02:58 [Zakim]
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- 02:03:02 [selfissued]
- present+
- 02:03:03 [drummond]
- Helen began by explaining it will be a non-technical discussion about how to talk about DIDs
- 02:03:06 [nicktr]
- q?
- 02:03:41 [drummond]
- The session objectives: 1) segment the audience, 2) simplify key terms, 3) connecting the dots to educate about DIDs
- 02:03:43 [phila]
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- 02:03:45 [Yoshi]
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- 02:03:51 [phila]
- present+
- 02:03:57 [drummond]
- The first objective is to identify the audience first
- 02:04:01 [st]
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- 02:04:03 [nicktr]
- zakim, who is here?
- 02:04:03 [Zakim]
- Present: selfissued, phila
- 02:04:05 [Zakim]
- On IRC I see st, Yoshi, phila, Zakim, selfissued, tung, hirata, burn, ReinaldoFerraz, yoshiaki, Youngsun, takashi_, jay, nicktr, wonsuk, Masa, shimazu, dom, drummond, RRSAgent,
- 02:04:05 [Zakim]
- ... takuya, dlongley
- 02:04:09 [tplooker]
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- 02:04:21 [drummond]
- ...Helen's background is in marketing, particularly in privacy and security, including for kids
- 02:04:44 [vincent_k]
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- 02:04:57 [vincent_k]
- present+
- 02:05:06 [drummond]
- ...Helen asked how many members of the DID WG were present. Roughly a dozen hands went up.
- 02:05:35 [drummond]
- ...several attendees are new to the DID space
- 02:05:48 [jeff]
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- 02:05:50 [jc]
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- 02:05:55 [jeff]
- present+ jeff
- 02:06:22 [Arnaud]
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- 02:06:43 [drummond]
- ...Helen stressed that successful communication is conveying the minimum information the audience really knows
- 02:06:49 [Arnaud]
- Present+ Arnaud Le Hors
- 02:06:57 [drummond]
- ...do not bore them with unnecessary detail
- 02:07:03 [jfontana]
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- 02:07:08 [burn]
- rrsagent, make logs public
- 02:07:09 [laurent]
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- 02:07:24 [burn]
- q?
- 02:07:26 [jfontana]
- present+
- 02:07:29 [laurent]
- present+
- 02:07:46 [drummond]
- ...she also talked about the "nod and smile" problem: this happens when the audience is unready to admit that they don't understand what you are saying
- 02:08:27 [drummond]
- ...Helen cited a Forrester report that talks about B2B websites that are drowning in jargon and self-serving info
- 02:08:46 [drummond]
- ...her third point was that "most journalists do not speak tech"
- 02:09:11 [nicktr]
- q?
- 02:09:15 [drummond]
- ...they do not have a real understanding of the technology
- 02:09:50 [tung_]
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- 02:10:01 [drummond]
- ...Helen asked what kinds of audiences the attendees of this session need to speak to?
- 02:10:06 [laudrain]
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- 02:11:02 [burn]
- drummond: one of the audiences most interested in DIDs is chief marketing officers
- 02:11:13 [drummond]
- phila: supply chain execs and product managers
- 02:11:21 [burn]
- q?
- 02:11:33 [drummond]
- drummond: one interested audience is CMOs (Chief Marketing Officers) and their staff
- 02:12:30 [drummond]
- Helen's next point was about developing empathy. Put yourself in the mind of the audience. What do they need to know.
- 02:12:42 [Dudley]
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- 02:13:08 [drummond]
- Helen showed a slide with the One Ring (from Lord of the Rings) and said people don't need to know what finger it was on
- 02:13:42 [Dudley]
- present+ Dudley_Collinson
- 02:13:43 [drummond]
- Helen showed a slide with the 5 key problems that DIDs address - understanding the audience's needs
- 02:14:06 [drummond]
- ...Helen emphasized that simplifying terms is very important
- 02:14:36 [drummond]
- ...she showed a slide of the "DID word soup" that often confronts people who want to start learning about DIDs
- 02:15:15 [wonsuk_]
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- 02:15:23 [jc]
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- 02:15:37 [drummond]
- ... Helen said that use cases are another way to really help people understand a new technology - because they can see the uses for it
- 02:16:26 [jc]
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- 02:16:28 [drummond]
- ... Helen showed a slide with 10 different use cases for DIDs: fintech, government, KYC, Banking, NGOs, healthcare, enterprise, law, security, education, travel
- 02:16:43 [burn]
- s/Helen showed/helen: showed/
- 02:17:08 [drummond]
- ??A: There is also a big problem in insurance and "insuretech"
- 02:17:26 [drummond]
- ... this is because insurance company's can't de-dupe the claims
- 02:17:43 [nicktr]
- s/??A/nicktr/
- 02:17:56 [drummond]
- ??B: the back-end processes of banks are also a huge target
- 02:18:11 [burn]
- q?
- 02:18:39 [nicktr]
- zakim, who is here?
- 02:18:39 [Zakim]
- Present: selfissued, phila, vincent_k, jeff, Arnaud, Le, Hors, jfontana, laurent, Dudley_Collinson
- 02:18:42 [Zakim]
- On IRC I see jc, wonsuk_, Dudley, laudrain, tung_, laurent, jfontana, Arnaud, jeff, tplooker, st, Yoshi, phila, Zakim, selfissued, hirata, burn, ReinaldoFerraz, yoshiaki, Youngsun,
- 02:18:42 [Zakim]
- ... takashi_, jay, nicktr, Masa, shimazu, dom, drummond, RRSAgent, takuya, dlongley
- 02:19:07 [drummond]
- Helen showed several sources for use cases: the Sovrin Foundation Use Case Repository, Hyperledger Case Studies, and a Draft Community Group Report February 2019
- 02:19:44 [vkuntz]
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- present+
- 02:19:53 [nicktr]
- s/??B/vkuntz/
- 02:19:55 [drummond]
- ... Helen mentioned a particular use case of the Province of British Columbia using DIDs for verifiable credentials for businesses
- 02:20:38 [drummond]
- ... Helen shows a table from the W3C CCG Use Cases document about 14 features of DIDs
- 02:20:52 [gildas]
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- 02:21:19 [kaz]
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- 02:21:36 [drummond]
- ... and then she referenced the 10 Goals of DIDs that are listed in the W3C Credentials Community Group Community Final Draft of the DID Specification
- 02:22:29 [drummond]
- ... Helen next talked about the visit of the PING (Privacy Interest Group) to the DID WG yesterday and the descriptions given by WG members to the PING co-chairs
- 02:23:19 [burn]
- drummond: they didn't have deep knowledge about DIDs, but about privacy. Great example of a connection.
- 02:23:57 [drummond]
- ... Several definitions were given, and Helen pointed out that there was not any single explanation that will always work
- 02:24:44 [jeff]
- q+
- 02:25:00 [drummond]
- ??C: Said that he has not heard very clear arguments about why a new identifier is needed for some of these use cases
- 02:25:02 [phila]
- q+
- 02:25:06 [burn]
- q?
- 02:25:07 [burn]
- q+
- 02:25:37 [drummond]
- ... what he has never heard described very well is "what is it that DIDs bring to the table that those other identifiers do not"
- 02:26:11 [nicktr]
- s/??C/IvanH/
- 02:26:12 [burn]
- ack jeff
- 02:26:14 [drummond]
- ... instead he is drowned in other arguments about what DIDs can be used for, but not precise descriptions of the differences
- 02:26:47 [burn]
- ack phila
- 02:26:54 [dontcallmeDOM]
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- 02:27:00 [drummond]
- jeff: Feels the most relevant thing is the positioning of DIDs vs. alternatives. Everything else is less relevant.
- 02:27:23 [drummond]
- phila: I work for GS1 that produces identifiers for the whole IoT and supply chain.
- 02:27:49 [drummond]
- ... the GS1 identifiers are federated, so decentralized to some extent
- 02:28:04 [nicktr]
- q?
- 02:28:12 [drummond]
- ... the problem that Phil wants to solve is making their identifiers all resolvable, which they are not all today
- 02:28:14 [Dudley]
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- 02:28:32 [drummond]
- ... so Phil considers that the biggest difference is that DIDs are cryptographically-verifiable
- 02:28:33 [jc]
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- 02:28:39 [burn]
- ack burn
- 02:29:07 [drummond]
- burn: Is always thinking about how he explains DIDs to someone who is not technical (like his parents)
- 02:29:35 [pamela]
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- 02:29:50 [pamela]
- q+
- 02:29:53 [drummond]
- ... gives the example of wanting a bag of fertilizer, then a pallet, then a truckload.
- 02:30:19 [drummond]
- ... But only if you ask questions about the truckload, then questions come up
- 02:30:32 [drummond]
- ... that's what leads to the need for verifiable credentials
- 02:30:54 [drummond]
- ... verifiable credentials have issuer identifiers and subject identifiers
- 02:31:07 [drummond]
- ... and privacy is quite important for these identifiers
- 02:31:33 [drummond]
- ... the first idea was to just leave it open in the spec and allow any kind of identifier
- 02:31:40 [drummond]
- ... such as email addresses or URIs
- 02:32:20 [drummond]
- ... but as they considered it, they realized that both email addresses and DNS-based identifiers are controlled by administrative authorities and can be taken away from you
- 02:32:29 [Dudley_]
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- 02:32:56 [drummond]
- ... and with verifiable credentials, not having to rely on an outside administrator is a big advantage
- 02:33:07 [burn]
- ack pamela
- 02:33:18 [drummond]
- ... and one is able to prove control
- 02:33:38 [drummond]
- pamela: the words "crypto" and "resolvable" will lose an audience
- 02:33:43 [nicktr]
- +1 to Pamela - crypto brings immediate FUD to the conversation
- 02:34:01 [yoshiaki_]
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- 02:34:13 [nicktr]
- q?
- 02:34:50 [drummond]
- ... the way Pamela tells the analogy of putting clothes on a clothesline: today you are going around putting your clothes on other's clothelines, and with DIDs you can put it all on your own clothesline
- 02:35:16 [jeff]
- q+
- 02:35:24 [burn]
- ack jeff
- 02:35:40 [drummond]
- selfissued: DIDs are plumbing and thus, like IP addresses and URLs, we shouldn't try to have people need to understand them
- 02:35:43 [jc]
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- 02:35:43 [drummond]
- q+
- 02:36:17 [drummond]
- jeff: agrees that they are plumbing, so lay people don't need to know them, but engineers do need to know them, and also product managers
- 02:36:36 [burn]
- ack drummond
- 02:36:39 [drummond]
- selfissued: Agrees that it depends on the general audience
- 02:36:47 [phila]
- scribe: phila
- 02:36:51 [burn]
- q+
- 02:36:53 [phila]
- drummond: I agree that DIDs are plumbing
- 02:37:08 [phila]
- ... the Web depends on URIs and people understand that
- 02:37:23 [phila]
- ... the impact of DIDs ends up being addresses that are crypto verifiable
- 02:37:32 [phila]
- ... so they have more trust than URLs, even https
- 02:37:48 [phila]
- ... to jeff's point - positioning does indeed resonate
- 02:38:00 [phila]
- ... early interest in DIDs came out of blockchain
- 02:38:16 [phila]
- ... you want to engage blockchain audience, start with block chain
- 02:38:35 [phila]
- helen: decision makers don't understand blockchain
- 02:38:41 [nicktr]
- q?
- 02:38:51 [burn]
- q+ ivan
- 02:39:08 [phila]
- drummond: Helen's right - I talk about bc day in day out - audience is usually blockchain invasion teams everywhere
- 02:39:21 [phila]
- ... So talking to them means starting with how DIDs apply to blockchain
- 02:39:43 [burn]
- ack burn
- 02:39:44 [phila]
- ... Execs - I don't take that approach. I do what Dan did and starts with verfiable credetials
- 02:39:49 [phila]
- scribe: drummond
- 02:40:17 [drummond]
- burn: Has seen plenty of examples of plumbing that people don't want to think about
- 02:40:35 [drummond]
- ... there are also many misconceptions about "identity" and how it works
- 02:41:14 [drummond]
- ... to some extent it is an emergent phenomenon from many different interactions and contexts
- 02:41:35 [drummond]
- ... with DIDs you can make this work across many relationships
- 02:42:05 [drummond]
- ... to use Pamela's analogy, it's like being able to have as many clothesline as you want - one DID for each clothesline
- 02:42:19 [nicktr]
- q?
- 02:42:30 [nicktr]
- q- ivan
- 02:42:36 [drummond]
- ... so DIDs are actually "bring your own identifier" (BYOI) - as long as you can prove you control it, the company will use it
- 02:42:59 [drummond]
- ... Helen then transitioned to her point about the importance of using graphics
- 02:43:28 [drummond]
- ... she showed an example of how the Sovrin Foundation communicates about DIDs and verifiable credentials with a high-level diagram
- 02:43:41 [burn]
- s/... Helen then transitioned/Helen: Helen then transitioned/
- 02:43:46 [drummond]
- ... these are friendly and approachable to a broad audience
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- 02:45:29 [drummond]
- ... Helen used the analogy of how easy it is to cash to buy something at a restaurant in person, vs. how awkward it is (and privacy encroaching) on the Web
- 02:46:15 [drummond]
- ... Helen next showed a four layer diagram that the Sovrin Foundation uses to talk about how something works
- 02:46:51 [burn]
- q?
- 02:46:53 [drummond]
- ... Helen said that using metaphors works very well; people can relate to these metaphors
- 02:47:26 [drummond]
- ... Helen next talked about "register": how your writing sounds when you are describing technology.
- 02:47:41 [drummond]
- ... a "formal register" is typically academic
- 02:47:52 [drummond]
- ... a "news register" is like journalism
- 02:48:20 [drummond]
- ... "personal" or "informal register" makes it sound more direct and identifiable
- 02:48:59 [drummond]
- ... she also recommends using simple words and not trying to pack into too much technical description
- 02:49:33 [ender]
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- 02:49:49 [drummond]
- ... Helen showed a slide of general tips for writing about a technology
- 02:50:02 [drummond]
- ... try to use words that the audience can related to and remember
- 02:51:02 [yoshiaki_]
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- 02:51:21 [drummond]
- ... Summary points: 1) convey meaning quickly and clearly, 2) Most generalists don't speak tech, 3) see slides for the rest
- 02:51:29 [burn]
- q?
- 02:51:53 [ender]
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- 02:52:03 [yoshiaki]
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- 02:54:19 [drummond]
- ... Helen then showed a popular video a wonderful parody of technospeak to remind everyone not to "be that guy"
- 02:54:29 [burn]
- rrsagent, draft minutes
- 02:54:29 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-didtalk-minutes.html burn
- 02:56:23 [drummond]
- Link: https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1O_jjvRtTsmFSucuw3LdtaVewCRMiX3DmmajT_h20a4w/edit?usp=sharing
- 02:56:39 [nicktr]
- rrsagent, draft minutes
- 02:56:39 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-didtalk-minutes.html nicktr
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- 05:48:27 [nicktr]
- zakim, bye
- 05:48:38 [nicktr]
- rrsagent, bye
- 05:48:38 [RRSAgent]
- I see no action items