IRC log of capable-web on 2019-09-18
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 06:23:43 [RRSAgent]
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- logging to https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-capable-web-irc
- 06:23:46 [tantek]
- RRSAgent, make logs public
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- 07:33:31 [birtles]
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- 07:33:34 [wseltzer]
- Meeting: For a More Capable Web—Project Fugu
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- 07:33:59 [Thomas_the_fish]
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- 07:34:43 [minami]
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- 07:34:44 [Thomas_the_fish]
- Feel free to ask questions in the IRC!
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- 07:34:53 [jessie]
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- 07:34:53 [diervo_]
- anssik just voluteered xD
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- 07:35:27 [boaz]
- present+
- 07:35:34 [JohnJansen]
- present+
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- 07:35:44 [tantek]
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- 07:35:59 [anssik]
- tom: Google, Intel, Microsoft part of the Project Fugu effort
- 07:36:28 [anssik]
- ... we can do stuff on the web today, but we're missing building blocks to build "Tokyo" on the Web
- 07:37:00 [tantek]
- RRSAgent, make logs public
- 07:37:09 [anssik]
- ... users want features and they flock to alternatives, e.g. super app-platforms WeChat, Cordova
- 07:37:34 [anssik]
- ... another example: Slack app based on Electron
- 07:37:44 [slightlyoff]
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- 07:37:54 [anssik]
- [slide showing a number of APIs available to web apps today]
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- 07:38:28 [aarongu]
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- 07:38:37 [anssik]
- ... mission statement: Enable web apps to do anything native apps can, by exposing the capabilities of native platforms to the web platform, while maintaining user security, privacy, trust, and other core tenets of the web.
- 07:38:52 [flaki]
- present+
- 07:38:53 [jeff]
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- 07:39:03 [jeff]
- present+
- 07:39:05 [anssik]
- ... go to goo.gle/project-fugu to learn more
- 07:39:42 [anssik]
- ... we have a white paper available at bit.ly/powerful-apis
- 07:40:06 [anssik]
- tom: all the work happens in the open, including design discussions
- 07:40:24 [taka]
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- 07:40:25 [anssik]
- ... the process we use from idea to a new API is as follows:
- 07:41:25 [anssik]
- ... identify need > write explainer > solicit feedback > formalize spec > ship it
- 07:41:51 [anssik]
- ... at formalize spec step we launch an Origin Trial in Chrome to give people ability to test these ideas with real users
- 07:42:08 [anssik]
- ... we don't want to end up in a situation we ended up with vendor-prefixes
- 07:42:36 [juyoung]
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- 07:42:40 [anssik]
- ... we iterate before shipping, improve the design based on feedback from real users and developers
- 07:43:14 [anssik]
- current features in progress and under consideration are at bit.ly/fugu-bugs
- 07:43:27 [anssik]
- ... Recently Shipped or Origin Trial APIs
- 07:43:43 [torgo]
- q?
- 07:43:48 [anssik]
- ... you can find information on Origin Trials of these capabilities at developers.chrome.com/origintrials
- 07:44:06 [anssik]
- tom: Image support for the Async Clipboard API
- 07:44:27 [anssik]
- [showing demo of the Async Clipboard API]
- 07:44:36 [torgo]
- q+ to emphasize the need for more interoperability with other browsers and other engines (as highlighted by the results of the MDN developer needs survey presented this morning).
- 07:44:40 [anssik]
- tom: File sharing support for the Web Share API
- 07:44:53 [anssik]
- RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
- 07:44:53 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-capable-web-minutes.html anssik
- 07:45:23 [anssik]
- RRSAgent, make logs public
- 07:45:52 [anssik]
- tom: File receiving support for the Web Share Target API
- 07:46:04 [anssik]
- ... Badging API
- 07:46:14 [anssik]
- ... Contact Picker API
- 07:46:47 [anssik]
- [demo of Contacts Picker API]
- 07:47:02 [anssik]
- RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
- 07:47:02 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-capable-web-minutes.html anssik
- 07:47:30 [anssik]
- Present+ A_ton_of_people
- 07:47:35 [anssik]
- RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
- 07:47:35 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-capable-web-minutes.html anssik
- 07:47:53 [anssik]
- tom: Periodic Background Sync
- 07:48:24 [anssik]
- ... these were APIs that have shipped or are in Origin Trial today
- 07:48:55 [anssik]
- ... we have more explorative APIs in works
- 07:49:06 [anssik]
- ... Barcode Detection API
- 07:49:14 [anssik]
- ... Native File System API
- 07:49:56 [anssik]
- tom: Next Steps
- 07:50:54 [anssik]
- ... SMS, Local Fonts Access, Notifications Triggers
- 07:51:22 [anssik]
- ... just a small number of features showcased today here, for the full list see goo.gle/fugu-api-tracker
- 07:52:02 [anssik]
- ... more resources available for you to learn more
- 07:52:13 [anssik]
- ... Web Capabilities page: goo.gle/capabilities
- 07:52:26 [anssik]
- ... Fugu Capability process: goo.gle/fugu-process
- 07:52:56 [torgo]
- q?
- 07:53:03 [anssik]
- [Showing a tweet that shows some Fugu <3]
- 07:53:04 [wseltzer]
- q+
- 07:53:05 [anssik]
- q?
- 07:53:08 [heycam]
- q+
- 07:53:21 [anssik]
- ack torgo
- 07:53:21 [Zakim]
- torgo, you wanted to emphasize the need for more interoperability with other browsers and other engines (as highlighted by the results of the MDN developer needs survey presented
- 07:53:24 [reillyg1]
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- 07:53:25 [Zakim]
- ... this morning).
- 07:53:37 [wseltzer]
- q+ pes
- 07:53:44 [wseltzer]
- q- later
- 07:53:48 [JohnJansen]
- can someone else scribe?
- 07:54:14 [odejesush]
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- 07:54:39 [anssik]
- torgo: Dan co-chair of TAG, I LOVE this work AND we heard this morning in the MDN preso that developer pain point is cross-browser compatibility, we see these APIs coming to TAG
- 07:55:54 [anssik]
- ... I'd love to see even more emphasis outreach-y type of activities to get more other browsers onboard, for more convergence
- 07:56:26 [boaz]
- q?
- 07:56:38 [anssik]
- alex: we're here to talk to you, we do everything in the open and welcome y'all to take part in the work from the very beginning
- 07:56:40 [jeff]
- q+
- 07:56:45 [gsnedders]
- q+
- 07:56:50 [anssik]
- ... if the tracker looks scary, just talk to us and we're happy to help
- 07:58:13 [anssik]
- torgo: we looked at SMS Receiver at TAG F2F, other implementers might have different priorities and interest, so there's some gray area where I'd like to see more engagement, actively soliciting and listening other browsers
- 07:58:42 [anssik]
- axel: SMS API is going to Origin Trial, so we do not let not yet ready experiments to escape the lab
- 07:59:10 [anssik]
- ... diversity of approaches is considered as part of the process, looking at alternatives
- 07:59:12 [anssik]
- q?
- 07:59:58 [anssik]
- reilly: not a lead on SMS API, but working on Fugu, I found this API interesting since Safari has a different way to do a similar task [with SMS]
- 08:00:02 [MichaelC_]
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- 08:00:35 [anssik]
- ... maybe Safari iOS approach is a better approach, we have had very good discussion with WebKit engineers on this exact issue at this event and continue that discussion
- 08:00:38 [anssik]
- q?
- 08:00:41 [anssik]
- q?
- 08:00:46 [Chunming]
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- 08:00:58 [anssik]
- thomas: we have Fugu syncs so invite Apple, Mozilla, others to join us
- 08:01:03 [dxie]
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- 08:01:07 [anssik]
- ... we want collaboration
- 08:01:42 [anssik]
- vincent: I agree with the points made, we had some of the earlier projects with Notifications, and some of our efforts, had interest early e.g. WebBT, WebUSB
- 08:02:00 [anssik]
- ... at that time 2014 onwards we put together proposals to gather feedback from community
- 08:02:02 [anssik]
- q?
- 08:02:03 [rmondello]
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- 08:02:57 [taka_]
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- 08:03:45 [heycam]
- q-
- 08:03:53 [anssik]
- [scribe missed that comment...]
- 08:04:17 [wseltzer]
- pes: have you thought about two-tiered permissions?
- 08:04:53 [gsnedders]
- ... and have a "web page" and a "web application" privilege model?
- 08:05:01 [anssik]
- alex: all permission gates use async APIs as to allow UI innovation by browser vendors
- 08:05:05 [gsnedders]
- q?
- 08:05:09 [wseltzer]
- ack pes
- 08:06:08 [anssik]
- ... UX research to be done, to understand trust relationship of users with apps that are "installed" vs. infrequently user sites
- 08:06:09 [torgo]
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- 08:06:16 [anssik]
- q?
- 08:06:18 [jgraham]
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- 08:07:03 [anssik]
- john: windows perspective, we work with Shell team to ensure permissions are properly surfaced in Windows adhering to the platform conventions
- 08:07:27 [anssik]
- q?
- 08:07:32 [anssik]
- ack wseltzer
- 08:08:43 [anssik]
- wseltzer: thank you, one of the things that is interesting to me with my W3C Strategy hat on: this is a great collection of capabilities the web could look like in the future
- 08:08:46 [anssik]
- q?
- 08:08:55 [anssik]
- ack jeff
- 08:09:21 [anssik]
- jeff: W3C CEO, maybe variation Wendy's, CGs are for incubation, Rec Track for standardization
- 08:09:53 [anssik]
- ... we're getting better at this, timing incubation and formal standardization
- 08:10:22 [anssik]
- ... worry is if incubating too long, we do not get the right participation by right people, not just implementers
- 08:10:30 [anssik]
- ... we need to make sure they are all in the conversation
- 08:10:35 [wseltzer]
- s/in the future/in the future. Would like to hear how we can use the Strategy Funnel, w3.org/Strategy/Funnel to help gather and gauge community interest./
- 08:10:52 [anssik]
- ... Rec Track is often a signal for the wider community to get engaged
- 08:10:56 [wseltzer]
- rrsagent, draft minutes
- 08:10:56 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-capable-web-minutes.html wseltzer
- 08:11:25 [anssik]
- alex: the reason to do things in incubation is to allow rapid iteration and fail fast as needed
- 08:12:00 [anssik]
- ... WGs are hard places for API design work, we're looking for guidance on transition from incubation to formal standardization
- 08:12:15 [anssik]
- ... our goal is to get to Rec Track with this
- 08:13:00 [anssik]
- ack?
- 08:13:02 [slightlyoff]
- q?
- 08:13:03 [anssik]
- q?
- 08:13:11 [thomas_the_fish]
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- 08:13:17 [wseltzer]
- ack gs
- 08:13:20 [anssik]
- ack gsnedders
- 08:13:22 [rmondello]
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- 08:13:28 [rmondello]
- q?
- 08:13:32 [rmondello]
- q+
- 08:14:14 [anssik]
- gsnedders: interop in MDN survey as a key pain point, question becomes whether vendors with less resources should focus on fixing interop issues or new features
- 08:15:27 [anssik]
- alex: we do specs that have design docs and allow interop implementations
- 08:15:28 [anssik]
- q?`
- 08:15:30 [anssik]
- q?
- 08:15:42 [anssik]
- ack rmondello
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- 08:16:00 [anssik]
- rmondello: Rick from Apple, I want to thank Dan for a request for ourreach
- 08:16:27 [anssik]
- ... re SMS, we've had productive design discussions around that feature
- 08:16:42 [anssik]
- ... looking at values behind approaches, UX
- 08:17:16 [anssik]
- ... the framing of an SMS feature vs. credential/password-type feature, encourage folks to get together and hash this really out
- 08:17:17 [anssik]
- q?
- 08:17:44 [diervo_]
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- 08:18:21 [anssik]
- heycam: many of these APIs are interfaces to device-level, testing story is interesting, need Web Driver extensions
- 08:18:48 [anssik]
- reilly: I've made noise in w-p-t, we've trying to build Web Driver extensions for these features
- 08:19:09 [anssik]
- ... that is 1-way mechanism so interested in evolving Web Driver protocol to better support device-related API testing
- 08:20:21 [gsnedders]
- s/we do specs that/eventually not implementing stuff becomes an interop issue if enough browsers ship it and websites use it, and we do specs that/
- 08:20:30 [anssik]
- john: lead of PWA capabilities for Edge, we meet tomorrow with Web Driver group and want to discuss this with folks and are open to suggestions, we've had long discussions during the week
- 08:20:55 [torgo]
- q?
- 08:20:58 [torgo]
- q+
- 08:21:20 [anssik]
- james: if we believe in multi-vendor web, we can't really improve the web faster than we reach consensus
- 08:21:45 [anssik]
- q?
- 08:22:34 [anssik]
- vincent: example, canvas2d has been extremely valuable addition to the web, it was led by a single vendor and other came along, in the end we had success
- 08:23:04 [diervo]
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- 08:23:14 [anssik]
- ... we can use a similar model in this context, we have Pointer Lock, Fullscreen in similar situation, 5-year gap between implementations still success
- 08:23:17 [anssik]
- q?
- 08:23:42 [anssik]
- james: canvas2d was one API, in scope of this project there are 10s of APIs
- 08:23:46 [anssik]
- ack torgo
- 08:23:47 [anssik]
- q?
- 08:24:23 [anssik]
- torgo: one of the promises of the web to the user is, it is more ethical, TAG has documented principles for more ethical web
- 08:25:12 [anssik]
- ... discussing with people involved with Fugu, impressed with thinking around mitigations to expose possibly dangerous APIs in a secure, privacy-preserving manner
- 08:26:03 [rmondello]
- To clarity the notes around what I said earlier: We've (Safari/WebKit) has communicated that we think the "SMS" framing is either unideal or harmful, rather than a credential, authentication, and one-time-password framing, and have concerns around the message template format. We're hopeful that these differences can be overcome.
- 08:26:18 [jayzhou]
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- 08:26:18 [anssik]
- tom: thanks you all for joining us, let's keep on moving this effort forward together!
- 08:26:29 [anssik]
- RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
- 08:26:29 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-capable-web-minutes.html anssik
- 08:27:00 [anssik]
- Present+ Anssi_Kostiainen
- 08:27:32 [shimazu]
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- 08:27:36 [anssik]
- Present+ Thomas_Steiner
- 08:27:52 [anssik]
- Present+ John_Jansen
- 08:31:12 [anssik]
- RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
- 08:31:12 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-capable-web-minutes.html anssik
- 08:31:17 [jeff__]
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- 08:31:52 [tomayac]
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- 08:32:13 [tomayac]
- The slides from the breakout session are available at https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1QPuoAWsk1BQfkg73x7IExvxi3VjIU9DGE0uIylprfWk/edit?usp=sharing.
- 08:35:19 [anssik]
- -> https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1QPuoAWsk1BQfkg73x7IExvxi3VjIU9DGE0uIylprfWk/ For a More Capable Web—Project Fugu (presentation slides)
- 08:35:21 [anssik]
- RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
- 08:35:21 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-capable-web-minutes.html anssik
- 08:36:28 [anssik]
- s/Present+ John_Jansen//
- 08:36:30 [anssik]
- RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
- 08:36:30 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-capable-web-minutes.html anssik
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- 09:01:43 [jsbell]
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- 09:03:50 [tantek]
- RRSAgent, pointer?
- 09:03:50 [RRSAgent]
- See https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-capable-web-irc#T09-03-50
- 09:09:15 [Chunming]
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