00:00:21 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #i18n 00:00:21 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2019/09/17-i18n-irc 00:00:39 <addison> Meeting: 2019 TPAC Internationalization (I18N) WG 00:00:43 <addison> Chair: Addison Phillips 00:00:46 <addison> Agenda: https://www.w3.org/wiki/I18N_2019_TPAC 00:00:52 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/17-i18n-minutes.html addison 00:02:19 <addison> present+ 00:02:49 <addison> present+ Richard 00:02:55 <addison> present+ Martin 00:03:32 <addison> Topic: Agenda 00:03:39 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/17-i18n-minutes.html addison 00:03:45 <DavidClarke> DavidClarke has joined #i18n 00:06:27 <addison> https://www.w3.org/wiki/I18N_2019_TPAC 00:06:30 <xfq> xfq has joined #i18n 00:08:35 <DavidClarke_> DavidClarke_ has joined #i18n 00:08:41 <duerst> duerst has joined #i18n 00:08:56 <addison> scribenick: duerst 00:09:39 <duerst> This is a test. 00:09:48 <atsushi> test 00:11:04 <duerst> addison: 20 min before first item in agenda 00:11:08 <addison> https://www.w3.org/wiki/I18N_2019_TPAC 00:11:13 <myles> myles has joined #i18n 00:11:54 <duerst> addison: will see CSS at 11:00, then lunch, then CSS again (text transform) 00:12:37 <xfq> present+ xfq_irc_only 00:13:13 <DavidClarke> present+ 00:13:14 <dbaron> dbaron has left #i18n 00:13:19 <duerst> addison: 14:00 meet with publishing 00:13:31 <r12a-again> r12a-again has joined #i18n 00:14:04 <r12a_> r12a_ has joined #i18n 00:14:51 <r12a_> r12a_ has joined #i18n 00:16:22 <duerst> addison: backlog: document development planning 00:17:19 <duerst> r12a: add to agenda: review of RtoL article 00:17:27 <duerst> R12a 00:18:11 <duerst> r12a: confirm 14:00 for meeting with publishing 00:18:35 <addison> Topic: well-formed vs valid 00:18:35 <karl> karl has joined #i18n 00:18:36 <addison> https://github.com/w3c/bp-i18n-specdev 00:18:55 <addison> https://github.com/w3c/bp-i18n-specdev/pull/37 00:19:26 <addison> https://aphillips.github.io/bp-i18n-specdev/#sec_lang_values 00:20:01 <duerst> addison: will tell you what changed 00:20:09 <addison> https://aphillips.github.io/bp-i18n-specdev/#lang_values_specificity 00:22:28 <duerst> addison: Purpose of change was to make distinction between well-formed and valid language tags more explicit. Also, recommend well-formed for specs, valid for content. 00:23:25 <r12a_> each subtag can have specific length -> each subtag has a specific length 00:25:32 <duerst> Bert: could we add some examples 00:25:59 <duerst> duerst: examples can be misleading, people should read the spec (BCP 47) 00:26:13 <duerst> r12a: We have an article, could point to it. 00:26:50 <duerst> duerst: article may not be as stable as this spec. 00:27:23 <duerst> addison: document will not be frozen, it is essentially our live checklist 00:28:14 <duerst> duerst: you don't have any problems with other groups requesting it to be a rec? 00:28:27 <duerst> addison: we publish as WD from time to time 00:29:26 <duerst> addision: article seems to discuss everything about language tags *except* well-formed or valid 00:29:26 <marcosc> marcosc has joined #i18n 00:30:18 <duerst> article is https://www.w3.org/International/articles/language-tags/ 00:33:14 <duerst> duerst: 'registry is frequently updated' vs. 'registry is updated sporadically' 00:34:07 <karl> karl has joined #i18n 00:36:01 <duerst> discussion about meaning of 'sporadically', alternatives suggested, e.g. 'intermittently' 00:36:38 <duerst> other alternatives: 'occasionally', 'wheneven necessary'; or don't qualify at all 00:37:25 <duerst> addison: could mention registration process 00:37:58 <duerst> addison: could take out whole sentence 00:38:20 <duerst> addison: conclusion: remove word 'sporadically' 00:42:02 <duerst> r12a: should say which extension we are talking about by using the singleton letter (-u) 00:43:19 <duerst> duerst: suggest 'One solution is to normatively require "valid" language tags' -> 'One solution is to normatively require *that* "valid" language tags' 00:44:28 <jay> jay has left #i18n 00:44:31 <duerst> r12a: We don't say why we don't require specs to validate 00:44:45 <addison> https://github.com/w3c/bp-i18n-specdev/issues/36 00:46:06 <duerst> addison: have text in the issue that we could use 00:46:23 <addison> https://github.com/w3c/bp-i18n-specdev/issues/36#issuecomment-531072094 00:49:36 <duerst> [addison doing some editing] 00:50:15 <addison> https://aphillips.github.io/bp-i18n-specdev/#lang_values_specificity 00:54:59 <duerst> r12a: attribute names should be marked up 00:55:06 <Roy_> Roy_ has joined #i18n 00:58:00 <duerst> r12a: separate out 'fairly sizeable' sentence into own paragraph, and put it later 00:59:14 <duerst> [r12a and addison doing further editing] 01:00:08 <bobbytung> bobbytung has joined #i18n 01:01:22 <chaals> chaals has joined #i18n 01:01:29 <karl> karl has joined #i18n 01:07:36 <duerst> duerst: 'mostly "not that interesting"' is too colloquial, may have been okay for issue, but not for spec 01:09:26 <Roy_> Roy_ has joined #i18n 01:13:01 <duerst> addison: done with editing 01:13:41 <duerst> duerst: suggest 'such as spell check, tokenizers, fonts, etc.' → ’’such as spell check*ers*, tokenizers, fonts, etc. 01:14:06 <DavidClarke> DavidClarke has joined #i18n 01:14:30 <addison> Topic: review of article rtl non-rtl 01:14:31 <duerst> addison: next topic: review of RtL article 01:14:32 <addison> http://w3c.github.io/i18n-drafts/questions/qa-ltr-scripts-in-rtl.en.html 01:15:43 <Roy_> Roy_ has left #i18n 01:20:16 <r12a_> recast the first paragraph as 2 smaller sentences 01:20:19 <duerst> discussion about whether Japanese imperial stamp is appropriate example 01:20:38 <duerst> duerst: may need to check with people from China or Korea 01:20:48 <r12a_> define LTR/RTL abbreviations 01:21:21 <duerst> duerst: First sentence is long and difficult to parse; first mention of directionality is late 01:21:39 <duerst> Bert: may give impression that Arabic was LtR at some time 01:22:11 <atsushi> https://i1.wp.com/339design.net/ningyocho/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/DSC_0049.jpg?resize=768%2C512&ssl=1 01:23:31 <r12a> r12a has joined #i18n 01:24:14 <Judy> Judy has joined #i18n 01:24:21 <marcosc> marcosc has joined #i18n 01:27:50 <duerst> duerst: text color could be darker 01:27:51 <r12a> fig 6, change word 'code' 01:28:09 <duerst> duerst: starting to experience accessibility as a personal issue 01:28:23 <duerst> others: text color lighter on windows than on mac 01:28:35 <duerst> duerst: Fig. 9 mentions code, but there's no code 01:29:40 <duerst> r12a: fig. 6 01:30:52 <bobbytung> bobbytung has joined #i18n 01:38:19 <duerst> duerst: markup should not say 'dir=ltr', because it's intended to be rtl. 01:39:00 <bobbytung> bobbytung has joined #i18n 01:39:05 <duerst> CSS should include 'direction: ltr' because that works together with rotation 01:39:59 <duerst> r12a: element might be span rather than bdo 01:41:52 <duerst> duerst: markup shouldn't change depending on font. font issues should be absorbed by stylesheet when possible. 01:44:02 <duerst> adjourned for break, meet at 11:00 with CSS, room downstairs 01:44:11 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/17-i18n-minutes.html addison 01:44:31 <r12a> change code for fig 6 to use bdo dir=rtl and clarify that the css may not work 01:45:33 <r12a> r12a has joined #i18n 01:47:21 <r12a> r12a has joined #i18n 02:02:42 <Judy> Judy has joined #i18n 02:06:06 <xfq> xfq has joined #i18n 02:09:02 <addison> addison has joined #i18n 02:09:02 <Judy_alt> Judy_alt has joined #i18n 02:09:02 <duerst> duerst has joined #i18n 02:09:16 <DavidClarke> DavidClarke has joined #i18n 02:09:23 <addison> NOTE: I18N is *not* meeting CSS currently. Fantasai will ping us if needed. 02:09:35 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/17-i18n-minutes.html addison 02:09:55 <fantasai> addison, best guess is 11:30 02:10:10 <fantasai> we only have two items on the agenda from CSS side, still waiting to hear from a11y where they're at 02:10:14 <duerst> scribenick: duerst 02:11:27 <marcosc> marcosc has joined #i18n 02:11:30 <bobbytung> bobbytung has joined #i18n 02:12:38 <duerst> addison: met charles, he is interested in organizing something about JSON directionality tomorrow 02:13:11 <chaals> chaals has joined #i18n 02:13:31 <tink> tink has left #i18n 02:13:51 <r12a> r12a has joined #i18n 02:14:30 <duerst> duerst: talked to Arnaud Le Hors (IBM AC rep) yesterday about XML 1.1 02:14:40 <r12a-again> r12a-again has joined #i18n 02:15:23 <duerst> IBM may have input into XML 1.1 obsoletion because XML 1.1 allows NEL (EBCDIC linebreak) as line break, but not XML 1.0 02:16:27 <duerst> addison: talk about "Unicode in XML and other markup languages" 02:16:37 <DavidClarke> DavidClarke has joined #i18n 02:19:44 <duerst> duerst: looked at porting to respec or bikeshed at one point, but steep learning curve 02:20:46 <duerst> duerst: also, not sure about demand 02:22:08 <bobbytung> bobbytung has joined #i18n 02:25:20 <addison> [discussion of unicode-xml] 02:25:47 <duerst> duerst: also, two organizations involved made things more difficult 02:25:57 <Zakim> Zakim has left #i18n 02:26:02 <duerst> addison: Unicode Consortium no longer involved 02:26:08 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #i18n 02:26:27 <duerst> duerst: have questions that would be discussed in this document actually come up, e.g. in reviews? 02:26:30 <atsushi> atsushi has joined #i18n 02:26:37 <addison> present+ bobbytung 02:26:39 <duerst> addison: not really 02:27:02 <addison> Topic: Document Development 02:27:05 <DavidClarke> present+ 02:27:05 <duerst> present+ duerst 02:27:07 <Bert> present+ 02:27:47 <addison> present+ 02:27:47 <duerst> present+ r12a 02:27:57 <r12a> r12a has joined #i18n 02:28:23 <addison> http://w3c.github.io/i18n-activity/projects/ 02:29:16 <duerst> addison: looking at backlog 02:32:47 <duerst> addison: would like to get to language tags and locale identifiers document at some time 02:33:08 <addison> www.org/TR/ltli 02:33:57 <dsinger> dsinger has joined #i18n 02:38:03 <duerst> r12a: ruby content model document may no longer be needed 02:40:24 <bobbytung> bobbytung has joined #i18n 02:40:57 <addison> need to add: https://w3c.github.io/string-search/ 02:44:15 <duerst> addison: this document contains some pieces that were not ready for publication when charmod-norm was published. 02:44:30 <duerst> maybe these pieces will never be ready. 02:44:48 <duerst> there is not yet a first public WD 02:45:17 <duerst> r12a: one main reason for FPWD is to get feedback 02:47:37 <addison> https://www.w3.org/TR/timezone/ 02:48:20 <DavidClarke> DavidClarke has joined #i18n 02:49:11 <duerst> a document about time in the IETF: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-touch-time-05 02:49:15 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/17-i18n-minutes.html addison 02:53:21 <chaals> chaals has joined #i18n 02:54:24 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/17-i18n-minutes.html addison 02:54:30 <addison> Topic: Lunch 03:02:25 <marcosc> marcosc has joined #i18n 03:04:23 <r12a> r12a has joined #i18n 03:46:29 <r12a> r12a has joined #i18n 03:51:10 <r12a-again> r12a-again has joined #i18n 03:52:14 <myles> myles has joined #i18n 03:54:33 <r12a> r12a has joined #i18n 04:01:16 <DavidClarke> DavidClarke has joined #i18n 04:02:10 <DavidClarke> present+ 04:03:23 <addison> addison has joined #i18n 04:03:59 <addison> Topic: CSS+I18N 04:04:05 <addison> scribenick: addison 04:04:27 <addison> NOTE: we're meeting with CSS from 1300 to 1400 in their room. IRC is #css 04:04:33 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/17-i18n-minutes.html addison 04:06:03 <duerst> duerst has joined #i18n 04:06:35 <dsinger> dsinger has joined #i18n 04:06:59 <bobbytung> bobbytung has joined #i18n 04:11:22 <atsushi> atsushi has joined #i18n 04:15:33 <xfq> xfq has joined #i18n 04:23:35 <xfq> xfq has joined #i18n 04:25:46 <yoshiroy> yoshiroy has joined #i18n 04:25:49 <marcosc> marcosc has joined #i18n 04:32:13 <Judy> Judy has joined #i18n 04:33:53 <dsinger> dsinger has joined #i18n 04:44:48 <bobbytung> bobbytung has joined #i18n 04:54:24 <marcosc> marcosc has joined #i18n 04:55:07 <marcosc> marcosc has joined #i18n 05:01:58 <r12a> r12a has joined #i18n 05:02:23 <fantasai> r12a, porbably all the issues in https://wiki.csswg.org/planning/tpac-2019 under text could use i18n feedback 05:04:07 <xfq> especially the part under "Internationalization joint meeting" 05:06:15 <marcosc> marcosc has joined #i18n 05:06:32 <r12a-again> r12a-again has joined #i18n 05:06:37 <addison_> addison_ has joined #i18n 05:06:43 <atsushi_> atsushi_ has joined #i18n 05:06:50 <addison_> Topic: Meeting with Publishing (PWG) 05:07:20 <DavidClarke> DavidClarke has joined #i18n 05:07:29 <duerst_> duerst_ has joined #i18n 05:08:48 <DavidClarke> present+ 05:10:55 <bobbytung> bobbytung has joined #i18n 05:22:22 <dsinger> dsinger has joined #i18n 05:31:21 <karl> karl has joined #i18n 05:39:02 <bobbytung> bobbytung has joined #i18n 05:57:37 <marcosc> marcosc has joined #i18n 06:03:01 <dsinger> dsinger has joined #i18n 06:03:10 <dsinger> dsinger has left #i18n 06:10:38 <chaals> chaals has joined #i18n 06:22:44 <r12a> r12a has joined #i18n 06:48:07 <addison> addison has joined #i18n 06:48:16 <DavidClarke> DavidClarke has joined #i18n 06:48:16 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/17-i18n-minutes.html addison 06:53:44 <r12a> r12a has joined #i18n 06:55:04 <r12a> r12a has joined #i18n 06:55:25 <atsushi> atsushi has joined #i18n 06:55:55 <r12a-again> r12a-again has joined #i18n 06:56:23 <r12a> r12a has joined #i18n 06:57:16 <duerst> duerst has joined #i18n 06:57:24 <duerst> present+ 07:02:38 <addison> zakim, who is here? 07:02:38 <Zakim> Present: bobbytung, DavidClarke, duerst, Bert, addison, r12a 07:02:40 <Zakim> On IRC I see duerst, r12a, r12a-again, atsushi, addison, chaals, karl, yoshiroy, myles, Zakim, RRSAgent, hadleybeeman, cwilso, weiler, wseltzer, hober, Mek, fantasai, Bert, 07:02:40 <Zakim> ... sangwhan, florian, bigbluehat, littledan, koji, trackbot 07:06:02 <xfq> xfq has joined #i18n 07:06:17 <DavidClarke> DavidClarke has joined #i18n 07:06:30 <marcosc> marcosc has joined #i18n 07:06:35 <r12a> r12a has joined #i18n 07:15:35 <addison> https://tools.ietf.org/html/bcp47#page-1-66 07:22:31 <xfq> xfq has joined #i18n 07:23:40 <Bert> -> https://drafts.csswg.org/selectors-4/ selectors 4 07:27:39 <atsushi> -> https://storage.himor.in/20190917-i18n.jpg group photo (no 360deg) 07:29:42 <addison> https://drafts.csswg.org/css-text-3/#content-language 07:29:55 <r12a-again> r12a-again has joined #i18n 07:32:55 <r12a_> r12a_ has joined #i18n 07:33:13 <addison> zh-* vs. yue-XX, two selectors :lang(zh) and :lang(yue) both match yue-XX----can't separate 07:41:00 <marcosc> marcosc has joined #i18n 07:42:41 <chaals> chaals has joined #i18n 07:59:36 <marcosc> marcosc has joined #i18n 08:03:25 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/17-i18n-minutes.html addison 08:05:04 <r12a> r12a has joined #i18n 08:05:53 <addison> zakim, bye 08:05:53 <Zakim> leaving. As of this point the attendees have been bobbytung, DavidClarke, duerst, Bert, addison, r12a 08:05:53 <Zakim> Zakim has left #i18n 08:06:29 <addison> Topic: Adjourning to work our evil individually 08:06:34 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/17-i18n-minutes.html addison 08:07:27 <addison> rrsagent, draft minutes 08:07:27 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/17-i18n-minutes.html addison 08:16:18 <r12a> r12a has joined #i18n 08:16:33 <r12a> addison? 08:17:01 <r12a> anyone ? 08:17:30 <r12a> r12a has joined #i18n 08:39:30 <chaals> chaals has joined #i18n 08:45:20 <marcosc> marcosc has joined #i18n 08:46:40 <marcosc> marcosc has joined #i18n 08:56:08 <marcosc> marcosc has joined #i18n 08:56:59 <yoshiroy> yoshiroy has joined #i18n 08:57:38 <yoshiroy> yoshiroy has left #i18n 08:58:03 <marcosc_> marcosc_ has joined #i18n 09:46:46 <r12a> r12a has joined #i18n 10:58:38 <marcosc> marcosc has joined #i18n 11:52:00 <r12a> r12a has joined #i18n 11:55:06 <marcosc> marcosc has joined #i18n 11:56:26 <marcosc_> marcosc_ has joined #i18n 11:57:32 <marcosc> marcosc has joined #i18n 11:58:44 <marcosc_> marcosc_ has joined #i18n 12:06:13 <marcosc> marcosc has joined #i18n 12:21:50 <marcosc> marcosc has joined #i18n 12:59:49 <karl> karl has joined #i18n 13:32:13 <r12a> r12a has joined #i18n 13:36:56 <marcosc_> marcosc_ has joined #i18n 13:52:38 <xfq> xfq has joined #i18n 13:54:28 <xfq> xfq has joined #i18n 14:38:15 <stpeter> stpeter has joined #i18n 19:19:35 <atsushi> atsushi has joined #i18n