00:00:21 RRSAgent has joined #i18n 00:00:21 logging to https://www.w3.org/2019/09/17-i18n-irc 00:00:39 Meeting: 2019 TPAC Internationalization (I18N) WG 00:00:43 Chair: Addison Phillips 00:00:46 Agenda: https://www.w3.org/wiki/I18N_2019_TPAC 00:00:52 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/17-i18n-minutes.html addison 00:02:19 present+ 00:02:49 present+ Richard 00:02:55 present+ Martin 00:03:32 Topic: Agenda 00:03:39 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/17-i18n-minutes.html addison 00:03:45 DavidClarke has joined #i18n 00:06:27 https://www.w3.org/wiki/I18N_2019_TPAC 00:06:30 xfq has joined #i18n 00:08:35 DavidClarke_ has joined #i18n 00:08:41 duerst has joined #i18n 00:08:56 scribenick: duerst 00:09:39 This is a test. 00:09:48 test 00:11:04 addison: 20 min before first item in agenda 00:11:08 https://www.w3.org/wiki/I18N_2019_TPAC 00:11:13 myles has joined #i18n 00:11:54 addison: will see CSS at 11:00, then lunch, then CSS again (text transform) 00:12:37 present+ xfq_irc_only 00:13:13 present+ 00:13:14 dbaron has left #i18n 00:13:19 addison: 14:00 meet with publishing 00:13:31 r12a-again has joined #i18n 00:14:04 r12a_ has joined #i18n 00:14:51 r12a_ has joined #i18n 00:16:22 addison: backlog: document development planning 00:17:19 r12a: add to agenda: review of RtoL article 00:17:27 R12a 00:18:11 r12a: confirm 14:00 for meeting with publishing 00:18:35 Topic: well-formed vs valid 00:18:35 karl has joined #i18n 00:18:36 https://github.com/w3c/bp-i18n-specdev 00:18:55 https://github.com/w3c/bp-i18n-specdev/pull/37 00:19:26 https://aphillips.github.io/bp-i18n-specdev/#sec_lang_values 00:20:01 addison: will tell you what changed 00:20:09 https://aphillips.github.io/bp-i18n-specdev/#lang_values_specificity 00:22:28 addison: Purpose of change was to make distinction between well-formed and valid language tags more explicit. Also, recommend well-formed for specs, valid for content. 00:23:25 each subtag can have specific length -> each subtag has a specific length 00:25:32 Bert: could we add some examples 00:25:59 duerst: examples can be misleading, people should read the spec (BCP 47) 00:26:13 r12a: We have an article, could point to it. 00:26:50 duerst: article may not be as stable as this spec. 00:27:23 addison: document will not be frozen, it is essentially our live checklist 00:28:14 duerst: you don't have any problems with other groups requesting it to be a rec? 00:28:27 addison: we publish as WD from time to time 00:29:26 addision: article seems to discuss everything about language tags *except* well-formed or valid 00:29:26 marcosc has joined #i18n 00:30:18 article is https://www.w3.org/International/articles/language-tags/ 00:33:14 duerst: 'registry is frequently updated' vs. 'registry is updated sporadically' 00:34:07 karl has joined #i18n 00:36:01 discussion about meaning of 'sporadically', alternatives suggested, e.g. 'intermittently' 00:36:38 other alternatives: 'occasionally', 'wheneven necessary'; or don't qualify at all 00:37:25 addison: could mention registration process 00:37:58 addison: could take out whole sentence 00:38:20 addison: conclusion: remove word 'sporadically' 00:42:02 r12a: should say which extension we are talking about by using the singleton letter (-u) 00:43:19 duerst: suggest 'One solution is to normatively require "valid" language tags' -> 'One solution is to normatively require *that* "valid" language tags' 00:44:28 jay has left #i18n 00:44:31 r12a: We don't say why we don't require specs to validate 00:44:45 https://github.com/w3c/bp-i18n-specdev/issues/36 00:46:06 addison: have text in the issue that we could use 00:46:23 https://github.com/w3c/bp-i18n-specdev/issues/36#issuecomment-531072094 00:49:36 [addison doing some editing] 00:50:15 https://aphillips.github.io/bp-i18n-specdev/#lang_values_specificity 00:54:59 r12a: attribute names should be marked up 00:55:06 Roy_ has joined #i18n 00:58:00 r12a: separate out 'fairly sizeable' sentence into own paragraph, and put it later 00:59:14 [r12a and addison doing further editing] 01:00:08 bobbytung has joined #i18n 01:01:22 chaals has joined #i18n 01:01:29 karl has joined #i18n 01:07:36 duerst: 'mostly "not that interesting"' is too colloquial, may have been okay for issue, but not for spec 01:09:26 Roy_ has joined #i18n 01:13:01 addison: done with editing 01:13:41 duerst: suggest 'such as spell check, tokenizers, fonts, etc.' → ’’such as spell check*ers*, tokenizers, fonts, etc. 01:14:06 DavidClarke has joined #i18n 01:14:30 Topic: review of article rtl non-rtl 01:14:31 addison: next topic: review of RtL article 01:14:32 http://w3c.github.io/i18n-drafts/questions/qa-ltr-scripts-in-rtl.en.html 01:15:43 Roy_ has left #i18n 01:20:16 recast the first paragraph as 2 smaller sentences 01:20:19 discussion about whether Japanese imperial stamp is appropriate example 01:20:38 duerst: may need to check with people from China or Korea 01:20:48 define LTR/RTL abbreviations 01:21:21 duerst: First sentence is long and difficult to parse; first mention of directionality is late 01:21:39 Bert: may give impression that Arabic was LtR at some time 01:22:11 https://i1.wp.com/339design.net/ningyocho/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/DSC_0049.jpg?resize=768%2C512&ssl=1 01:23:31 r12a has joined #i18n 01:24:14 Judy has joined #i18n 01:24:21 marcosc has joined #i18n 01:27:50 duerst: text color could be darker 01:27:51 fig 6, change word 'code' 01:28:09 duerst: starting to experience accessibility as a personal issue 01:28:23 others: text color lighter on windows than on mac 01:28:35 duerst: Fig. 9 mentions code, but there's no code 01:29:40 r12a: fig. 6 01:30:52 bobbytung has joined #i18n 01:38:19 duerst: markup should not say 'dir=ltr', because it's intended to be rtl. 01:39:00 bobbytung has joined #i18n 01:39:05 CSS should include 'direction: ltr' because that works together with rotation 01:39:59 r12a: element might be span rather than bdo 01:41:52 duerst: markup shouldn't change depending on font. font issues should be absorbed by stylesheet when possible. 01:44:02 adjourned for break, meet at 11:00 with CSS, room downstairs 01:44:11 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/17-i18n-minutes.html addison 01:44:31 change code for fig 6 to use bdo dir=rtl and clarify that the css may not work 01:45:33 r12a has joined #i18n 01:47:21 r12a has joined #i18n 02:02:42 Judy has joined #i18n 02:06:06 xfq has joined #i18n 02:09:02 addison has joined #i18n 02:09:02 Judy_alt has joined #i18n 02:09:02 duerst has joined #i18n 02:09:16 DavidClarke has joined #i18n 02:09:23 NOTE: I18N is *not* meeting CSS currently. Fantasai will ping us if needed. 02:09:35 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/17-i18n-minutes.html addison 02:09:55 addison, best guess is 11:30 02:10:10 we only have two items on the agenda from CSS side, still waiting to hear from a11y where they're at 02:10:14 scribenick: duerst 02:11:27 marcosc has joined #i18n 02:11:30 bobbytung has joined #i18n 02:12:38 addison: met charles, he is interested in organizing something about JSON directionality tomorrow 02:13:11 chaals has joined #i18n 02:13:31 tink has left #i18n 02:13:51 r12a has joined #i18n 02:14:30 duerst: talked to Arnaud Le Hors (IBM AC rep) yesterday about XML 1.1 02:14:40 r12a-again has joined #i18n 02:15:23 IBM may have input into XML 1.1 obsoletion because XML 1.1 allows NEL (EBCDIC linebreak) as line break, but not XML 1.0 02:16:27 addison: talk about "Unicode in XML and other markup languages" 02:16:37 DavidClarke has joined #i18n 02:19:44 duerst: looked at porting to respec or bikeshed at one point, but steep learning curve 02:20:46 duerst: also, not sure about demand 02:22:08 bobbytung has joined #i18n 02:25:20 [discussion of unicode-xml] 02:25:47 duerst: also, two organizations involved made things more difficult 02:25:57 Zakim has left #i18n 02:26:02 addison: Unicode Consortium no longer involved 02:26:08 Zakim has joined #i18n 02:26:27 duerst: have questions that would be discussed in this document actually come up, e.g. in reviews? 02:26:30 atsushi has joined #i18n 02:26:37 present+ bobbytung 02:26:39 addison: not really 02:27:02 Topic: Document Development 02:27:05 present+ 02:27:05 present+ duerst 02:27:07 present+ 02:27:47 present+ 02:27:47 present+ r12a 02:27:57 r12a has joined #i18n 02:28:23 http://w3c.github.io/i18n-activity/projects/ 02:29:16 addison: looking at backlog 02:32:47 addison: would like to get to language tags and locale identifiers document at some time 02:33:08 www.org/TR/ltli 02:33:57 dsinger has joined #i18n 02:38:03 r12a: ruby content model document may no longer be needed 02:40:24 bobbytung has joined #i18n 02:40:57 need to add: https://w3c.github.io/string-search/ 02:44:15 addison: this document contains some pieces that were not ready for publication when charmod-norm was published. 02:44:30 maybe these pieces will never be ready. 02:44:48 there is not yet a first public WD 02:45:17 r12a: one main reason for FPWD is to get feedback 02:47:37 https://www.w3.org/TR/timezone/ 02:48:20 DavidClarke has joined #i18n 02:49:11 a document about time in the IETF: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-touch-time-05 02:49:15 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/17-i18n-minutes.html addison 02:53:21 chaals has joined #i18n 02:54:24 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/17-i18n-minutes.html addison 02:54:30 Topic: Lunch 03:02:25 marcosc has joined #i18n 03:04:23 r12a has joined #i18n 03:46:29 r12a has joined #i18n 03:51:10 r12a-again has joined #i18n 03:52:14 myles has joined #i18n 03:54:33 r12a has joined #i18n 04:01:16 DavidClarke has joined #i18n 04:02:10 present+ 04:03:23 addison has joined #i18n 04:03:59 Topic: CSS+I18N 04:04:05 scribenick: addison 04:04:27 NOTE: we're meeting with CSS from 1300 to 1400 in their room. IRC is #css 04:04:33 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/17-i18n-minutes.html addison 04:06:03 duerst has joined #i18n 04:06:35 dsinger has joined #i18n 04:06:59 bobbytung has joined #i18n 04:11:22 atsushi has joined #i18n 04:15:33 xfq has joined #i18n 04:23:35 xfq has joined #i18n 04:25:46 yoshiroy has joined #i18n 04:25:49 marcosc has joined #i18n 04:32:13 Judy has joined #i18n 04:33:53 dsinger has joined #i18n 04:44:48 bobbytung has joined #i18n 04:54:24 marcosc has joined #i18n 04:55:07 marcosc has joined #i18n 05:01:58 r12a has joined #i18n 05:02:23 r12a, porbably all the issues in https://wiki.csswg.org/planning/tpac-2019 under text could use i18n feedback 05:04:07 especially the part under "Internationalization joint meeting" 05:06:15 marcosc has joined #i18n 05:06:32 r12a-again has joined #i18n 05:06:37 addison_ has joined #i18n 05:06:43 atsushi_ has joined #i18n 05:06:50 Topic: Meeting with Publishing (PWG) 05:07:20 DavidClarke has joined #i18n 05:07:29 duerst_ has joined #i18n 05:08:48 present+ 05:10:55 bobbytung has joined #i18n 05:22:22 dsinger has joined #i18n 05:31:21 karl has joined #i18n 05:39:02 bobbytung has joined #i18n 05:57:37 marcosc has joined #i18n 06:03:01 dsinger has joined #i18n 06:03:10 dsinger has left #i18n 06:10:38 chaals has joined #i18n 06:22:44 r12a has joined #i18n 06:48:07 addison has joined #i18n 06:48:16 DavidClarke has joined #i18n 06:48:16 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/17-i18n-minutes.html addison 06:53:44 r12a has joined #i18n 06:55:04 r12a has joined #i18n 06:55:25 atsushi has joined #i18n 06:55:55 r12a-again has joined #i18n 06:56:23 r12a has joined #i18n 06:57:16 duerst has joined #i18n 06:57:24 present+ 07:02:38 zakim, who is here? 07:02:38 Present: bobbytung, DavidClarke, duerst, Bert, addison, r12a 07:02:40 On IRC I see duerst, r12a, r12a-again, atsushi, addison, chaals, karl, yoshiroy, myles, Zakim, RRSAgent, hadleybeeman, cwilso, weiler, wseltzer, hober, Mek, fantasai, Bert, 07:02:40 ... sangwhan, florian, bigbluehat, littledan, koji, trackbot 07:06:02 xfq has joined #i18n 07:06:17 DavidClarke has joined #i18n 07:06:30 marcosc has joined #i18n 07:06:35 r12a has joined #i18n 07:15:35 https://tools.ietf.org/html/bcp47#page-1-66 07:22:31 xfq has joined #i18n 07:23:40 -> https://drafts.csswg.org/selectors-4/ selectors 4 07:27:39 -> https://storage.himor.in/20190917-i18n.jpg group photo (no 360deg) 07:29:42 https://drafts.csswg.org/css-text-3/#content-language 07:29:55 r12a-again has joined #i18n 07:32:55 r12a_ has joined #i18n 07:33:13 zh-* vs. yue-XX, two selectors :lang(zh) and :lang(yue) both match yue-XX----can't separate 07:41:00 marcosc has joined #i18n 07:42:41 chaals has joined #i18n 07:59:36 marcosc has joined #i18n 08:03:25 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/17-i18n-minutes.html addison 08:05:04 r12a has joined #i18n 08:05:53 zakim, bye 08:05:53 leaving. As of this point the attendees have been bobbytung, DavidClarke, duerst, Bert, addison, r12a 08:05:53 Zakim has left #i18n 08:06:29 Topic: Adjourning to work our evil individually 08:06:34 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/17-i18n-minutes.html addison 08:07:27 rrsagent, draft minutes 08:07:27 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/17-i18n-minutes.html addison 08:16:18 r12a has joined #i18n 08:16:33 addison? 08:17:01 anyone ? 08:17:30 r12a has joined #i18n 08:39:30 chaals has joined #i18n 08:45:20 marcosc has joined #i18n 08:46:40 marcosc has joined #i18n 08:56:08 marcosc has joined #i18n 08:56:59 yoshiroy has joined #i18n 08:57:38 yoshiroy has left #i18n 08:58:03 marcosc_ has joined #i18n 09:46:46 r12a has joined #i18n 10:58:38 marcosc has joined #i18n 11:52:00 r12a has joined #i18n 11:55:06 marcosc has joined #i18n 11:56:26 marcosc_ has joined #i18n 11:57:32 marcosc has joined #i18n 11:58:44 marcosc_ has joined #i18n 12:06:13 marcosc has joined #i18n 12:21:50 marcosc has joined #i18n 12:59:49 karl has joined #i18n 13:32:13 r12a has joined #i18n 13:36:56 marcosc_ has joined #i18n 13:52:38 xfq has joined #i18n 13:54:28 xfq has joined #i18n 14:38:15 stpeter has joined #i18n 19:19:35 atsushi has joined #i18n