IRC log of i18n on 2019-09-17

Timestamps are in UTC.

00:00:21 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #i18n
00:00:21 [RRSAgent]
logging to https://www.w3.org/2019/09/17-i18n-irc
00:00:39 [addison]
Meeting: 2019 TPAC Internationalization (I18N) WG
00:00:43 [addison]
Chair: Addison Phillips
00:00:46 [addison]
Agenda: https://www.w3.org/wiki/I18N_2019_TPAC
00:00:52 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/17-i18n-minutes.html addison
00:02:19 [addison]
present+
00:02:49 [addison]
present+ Richard
00:02:55 [addison]
present+ Martin
00:03:32 [addison]
Topic: Agenda
00:03:39 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/17-i18n-minutes.html addison
00:03:45 [DavidClarke]
DavidClarke has joined #i18n
00:06:27 [addison]
https://www.w3.org/wiki/I18N_2019_TPAC
00:06:30 [xfq]
xfq has joined #i18n
00:08:35 [DavidClarke_]
DavidClarke_ has joined #i18n
00:08:41 [duerst]
duerst has joined #i18n
00:08:56 [addison]
scribenick: duerst
00:09:39 [duerst]
This is a test.
00:09:48 [atsushi]
test
00:11:04 [duerst]
addison: 20 min before first item in agenda
00:11:08 [addison]
https://www.w3.org/wiki/I18N_2019_TPAC
00:11:13 [myles]
myles has joined #i18n
00:11:54 [duerst]
addison: will see CSS at 11:00, then lunch, then CSS again (text transform)
00:12:37 [xfq]
present+ xfq_irc_only
00:13:13 [DavidClarke]
present+
00:13:14 [dbaron]
dbaron has left #i18n
00:13:19 [duerst]
addison: 14:00 meet with publishing
00:13:31 [r12a-again]
r12a-again has joined #i18n
00:14:04 [r12a_]
r12a_ has joined #i18n
00:14:51 [r12a_]
r12a_ has joined #i18n
00:16:22 [duerst]
addison: backlog: document development planning
00:17:19 [duerst]
r12a: add to agenda: review of RtoL article
00:17:27 [duerst]
R12a
00:18:11 [duerst]
r12a: confirm 14:00 for meeting with publishing
00:18:35 [addison]
Topic: well-formed vs valid
00:18:35 [karl]
karl has joined #i18n
00:18:36 [addison]
https://github.com/w3c/bp-i18n-specdev
00:18:55 [addison]
https://github.com/w3c/bp-i18n-specdev/pull/37
00:19:26 [addison]
https://aphillips.github.io/bp-i18n-specdev/#sec_lang_values
00:20:01 [duerst]
addison: will tell you what changed
00:20:09 [addison]
https://aphillips.github.io/bp-i18n-specdev/#lang_values_specificity
00:22:28 [duerst]
addison: Purpose of change was to make distinction between well-formed and valid language tags more explicit. Also, recommend well-formed for specs, valid for content.
00:23:25 [r12a_]
each subtag can have specific length -> each subtag has a specific length
00:25:32 [duerst]
Bert: could we add some examples
00:25:59 [duerst]
duerst: examples can be misleading, people should read the spec (BCP 47)
00:26:13 [duerst]
r12a: We have an article, could point to it.
00:26:50 [duerst]
duerst: article may not be as stable as this spec.
00:27:23 [duerst]
addison: document will not be frozen, it is essentially our live checklist
00:28:14 [duerst]
duerst: you don't have any problems with other groups requesting it to be a rec?
00:28:27 [duerst]
addison: we publish as WD from time to time
00:29:26 [duerst]
addision: article seems to discuss everything about language tags *except* well-formed or valid
00:29:26 [marcosc]
marcosc has joined #i18n
00:30:18 [duerst]
article is https://www.w3.org/International/articles/language-tags/
00:33:14 [duerst]
duerst: 'registry is frequently updated' vs. 'registry is updated sporadically'
00:34:07 [karl]
karl has joined #i18n
00:36:01 [duerst]
discussion about meaning of 'sporadically', alternatives suggested, e.g. 'intermittently'
00:36:38 [duerst]
other alternatives: 'occasionally', 'wheneven necessary'; or don't qualify at all
00:37:25 [duerst]
addison: could mention registration process
00:37:58 [duerst]
addison: could take out whole sentence
00:38:20 [duerst]
addison: conclusion: remove word 'sporadically'
00:42:02 [duerst]
r12a: should say which extension we are talking about by using the singleton letter (-u)
00:43:19 [duerst]
duerst: suggest 'One solution is to normatively require "valid" language tags' -> 'One solution is to normatively require *that* "valid" language tags'
00:44:28 [jay]
jay has left #i18n
00:44:31 [duerst]
r12a: We don't say why we don't require specs to validate
00:44:45 [addison]
https://github.com/w3c/bp-i18n-specdev/issues/36
00:46:06 [duerst]
addison: have text in the issue that we could use
00:46:23 [addison]
https://github.com/w3c/bp-i18n-specdev/issues/36#issuecomment-531072094
00:49:36 [duerst]
[addison doing some editing]
00:50:15 [addison]
https://aphillips.github.io/bp-i18n-specdev/#lang_values_specificity
00:54:59 [duerst]
r12a: attribute names should be marked up
00:55:06 [Roy_]
Roy_ has joined #i18n
00:58:00 [duerst]
r12a: separate out 'fairly sizeable' sentence into own paragraph, and put it later
00:59:14 [duerst]
[r12a and addison doing further editing]
01:00:08 [bobbytung]
bobbytung has joined #i18n
01:01:22 [chaals]
chaals has joined #i18n
01:01:29 [karl]
karl has joined #i18n
01:07:36 [duerst]
duerst: 'mostly "not that interesting"' is too colloquial, may have been okay for issue, but not for spec
01:09:26 [Roy_]
Roy_ has joined #i18n
01:13:01 [duerst]
addison: done with editing
01:13:41 [duerst]
duerst: suggest 'such as spell check, tokenizers, fonts, etc.' → ’’such as spell check*ers*, tokenizers, fonts, etc.
01:14:06 [DavidClarke]
DavidClarke has joined #i18n
01:14:30 [addison]
Topic: review of article rtl non-rtl
01:14:31 [duerst]
addison: next topic: review of RtL article
01:14:32 [addison]
http://w3c.github.io/i18n-drafts/questions/qa-ltr-scripts-in-rtl.en.html
01:15:43 [Roy_]
Roy_ has left #i18n
01:20:16 [r12a_]
recast the first paragraph as 2 smaller sentences
01:20:19 [duerst]
discussion about whether Japanese imperial stamp is appropriate example
01:20:38 [duerst]
duerst: may need to check with people from China or Korea
01:20:48 [r12a_]
define LTR/RTL abbreviations
01:21:21 [duerst]
duerst: First sentence is long and difficult to parse; first mention of directionality is late
01:21:39 [duerst]
Bert: may give impression that Arabic was LtR at some time
01:22:11 [atsushi]
https://i1.wp.com/339design.net/ningyocho/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/DSC_0049.jpg?resize=768%2C512&ssl=1
01:23:31 [r12a]
r12a has joined #i18n
01:24:14 [Judy]
Judy has joined #i18n
01:24:21 [marcosc]
marcosc has joined #i18n
01:27:50 [duerst]
duerst: text color could be darker
01:27:51 [r12a]
fig 6, change word 'code'
01:28:09 [duerst]
duerst: starting to experience accessibility as a personal issue
01:28:23 [duerst]
others: text color lighter on windows than on mac
01:28:35 [duerst]
duerst: Fig. 9 mentions code, but there's no code
01:29:40 [duerst]
r12a: fig. 6
01:30:52 [bobbytung]
bobbytung has joined #i18n
01:38:19 [duerst]
duerst: markup should not say 'dir=ltr', because it's intended to be rtl.
01:39:00 [bobbytung]
bobbytung has joined #i18n
01:39:05 [duerst]
CSS should include 'direction: ltr' because that works together with rotation
01:39:59 [duerst]
r12a: element might be span rather than bdo
01:41:52 [duerst]
duerst: markup shouldn't change depending on font. font issues should be absorbed by stylesheet when possible.
01:44:02 [duerst]
adjourned for break, meet at 11:00 with CSS, room downstairs
01:44:11 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/17-i18n-minutes.html addison
01:44:31 [r12a]
change code for fig 6 to use bdo dir=rtl and clarify that the css may not work
01:45:33 [r12a]
r12a has joined #i18n
01:47:21 [r12a]
r12a has joined #i18n
02:02:42 [Judy]
Judy has joined #i18n
02:06:06 [xfq]
xfq has joined #i18n
02:09:02 [addison]
addison has joined #i18n
02:09:02 [Judy_alt]
Judy_alt has joined #i18n
02:09:02 [duerst]
duerst has joined #i18n
02:09:16 [DavidClarke]
DavidClarke has joined #i18n
02:09:23 [addison]
NOTE: I18N is *not* meeting CSS currently. Fantasai will ping us if needed.
02:09:35 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/17-i18n-minutes.html addison
02:09:55 [fantasai]
addison, best guess is 11:30
02:10:10 [fantasai]
we only have two items on the agenda from CSS side, still waiting to hear from a11y where they're at
02:10:14 [duerst]
scribenick: duerst
02:11:27 [marcosc]
marcosc has joined #i18n
02:11:30 [bobbytung]
bobbytung has joined #i18n
02:12:38 [duerst]
addison: met charles, he is interested in organizing something about JSON directionality tomorrow
02:13:11 [chaals]
chaals has joined #i18n
02:13:31 [tink]
tink has left #i18n
02:13:51 [r12a]
r12a has joined #i18n
02:14:30 [duerst]
duerst: talked to Arnaud Le Hors (IBM AC rep) yesterday about XML 1.1
02:14:40 [r12a-again]
r12a-again has joined #i18n
02:15:23 [duerst]
IBM may have input into XML 1.1 obsoletion because XML 1.1 allows NEL (EBCDIC linebreak) as line break, but not XML 1.0
02:16:27 [duerst]
addison: talk about "Unicode in XML and other markup languages"
02:16:37 [DavidClarke]
DavidClarke has joined #i18n
02:19:44 [duerst]
duerst: looked at porting to respec or bikeshed at one point, but steep learning curve
02:20:46 [duerst]
duerst: also, not sure about demand
02:22:08 [bobbytung]
bobbytung has joined #i18n
02:25:20 [addison]
[discussion of unicode-xml]
02:25:47 [duerst]
duerst: also, two organizations involved made things more difficult
02:25:57 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #i18n
02:26:02 [duerst]
addison: Unicode Consortium no longer involved
02:26:08 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #i18n
02:26:27 [duerst]
duerst: have questions that would be discussed in this document actually come up, e.g. in reviews?
02:26:30 [atsushi]
atsushi has joined #i18n
02:26:37 [addison]
present+ bobbytung
02:26:39 [duerst]
addison: not really
02:27:02 [addison]
Topic: Document Development
02:27:05 [DavidClarke]
present+
02:27:05 [duerst]
present+ duerst
02:27:07 [Bert]
present+
02:27:47 [addison]
present+
02:27:47 [duerst]
present+ r12a
02:27:57 [r12a]
r12a has joined #i18n
02:28:23 [addison]
http://w3c.github.io/i18n-activity/projects/
02:29:16 [duerst]
addison: looking at backlog
02:32:47 [duerst]
addison: would like to get to language tags and locale identifiers document at some time
02:33:08 [addison]
www.org/TR/ltli
02:33:57 [dsinger]
dsinger has joined #i18n
02:38:03 [duerst]
r12a: ruby content model document may no longer be needed
02:40:24 [bobbytung]
bobbytung has joined #i18n
02:40:57 [addison]
need to add: https://w3c.github.io/string-search/
02:44:15 [duerst]
addison: this document contains some pieces that were not ready for publication when charmod-norm was published.
02:44:30 [duerst]
maybe these pieces will never be ready.
02:44:48 [duerst]
there is not yet a first public WD
02:45:17 [duerst]
r12a: one main reason for FPWD is to get feedback
02:47:37 [addison]
https://www.w3.org/TR/timezone/
02:48:20 [DavidClarke]
DavidClarke has joined #i18n
02:49:11 [duerst]
a document about time in the IETF: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-touch-time-05
02:49:15 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/17-i18n-minutes.html addison
02:53:21 [chaals]
chaals has joined #i18n
02:54:24 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/17-i18n-minutes.html addison
02:54:30 [addison]
Topic: Lunch
03:02:25 [marcosc]
marcosc has joined #i18n
03:04:23 [r12a]
r12a has joined #i18n
03:46:29 [r12a]
r12a has joined #i18n
03:51:10 [r12a-again]
r12a-again has joined #i18n
03:52:14 [myles]
myles has joined #i18n
03:54:33 [r12a]
r12a has joined #i18n
04:01:16 [DavidClarke]
DavidClarke has joined #i18n
04:02:10 [DavidClarke]
present+
04:03:23 [addison]
addison has joined #i18n
04:03:59 [addison]
Topic: CSS+I18N
04:04:05 [addison]
scribenick: addison
04:04:27 [addison]
NOTE: we're meeting with CSS from 1300 to 1400 in their room. IRC is #css
04:04:33 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/17-i18n-minutes.html addison
04:06:03 [duerst]
duerst has joined #i18n
04:06:35 [dsinger]
dsinger has joined #i18n
04:06:59 [bobbytung]
bobbytung has joined #i18n
04:11:22 [atsushi]
atsushi has joined #i18n
04:15:33 [xfq]
xfq has joined #i18n
04:23:35 [xfq]
xfq has joined #i18n
04:25:46 [yoshiroy]
yoshiroy has joined #i18n
04:25:49 [marcosc]
marcosc has joined #i18n
04:32:13 [Judy]
Judy has joined #i18n
04:33:53 [dsinger]
dsinger has joined #i18n
04:44:48 [bobbytung]
bobbytung has joined #i18n
04:54:24 [marcosc]
marcosc has joined #i18n
04:55:07 [marcosc]
marcosc has joined #i18n
05:01:58 [r12a]
r12a has joined #i18n
05:02:23 [fantasai]
r12a, porbably all the issues in https://wiki.csswg.org/planning/tpac-2019 under text could use i18n feedback
05:04:07 [xfq]
especially the part under "Internationalization joint meeting"
05:06:15 [marcosc]
marcosc has joined #i18n
05:06:32 [r12a-again]
r12a-again has joined #i18n
05:06:37 [addison_]
addison_ has joined #i18n
05:06:43 [atsushi_]
atsushi_ has joined #i18n
05:06:50 [addison_]
Topic: Meeting with Publishing (PWG)
05:07:20 [DavidClarke]
DavidClarke has joined #i18n
05:07:29 [duerst_]
duerst_ has joined #i18n
05:08:48 [DavidClarke]
present+
05:10:55 [bobbytung]
bobbytung has joined #i18n
05:22:22 [dsinger]
dsinger has joined #i18n
05:31:21 [karl]
karl has joined #i18n
05:39:02 [bobbytung]
bobbytung has joined #i18n
05:57:37 [marcosc]
marcosc has joined #i18n
06:03:01 [dsinger]
dsinger has joined #i18n
06:03:10 [dsinger]
dsinger has left #i18n
06:10:38 [chaals]
chaals has joined #i18n
06:22:44 [r12a]
r12a has joined #i18n
06:48:07 [addison]
addison has joined #i18n
06:48:16 [DavidClarke]
DavidClarke has joined #i18n
06:48:16 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/17-i18n-minutes.html addison
06:53:44 [r12a]
r12a has joined #i18n
06:55:04 [r12a]
r12a has joined #i18n
06:55:25 [atsushi]
atsushi has joined #i18n
06:55:55 [r12a-again]
r12a-again has joined #i18n
06:56:23 [r12a]
r12a has joined #i18n
06:57:16 [duerst]
duerst has joined #i18n
06:57:24 [duerst]
present+
07:02:38 [addison]
zakim, who is here?
07:02:38 [Zakim]
Present: bobbytung, DavidClarke, duerst, Bert, addison, r12a
07:02:40 [Zakim]
On IRC I see duerst, r12a, r12a-again, atsushi, addison, chaals, karl, yoshiroy, myles, Zakim, RRSAgent, hadleybeeman, cwilso, weiler, wseltzer, hober, Mek, fantasai, Bert,
07:02:40 [Zakim]
... sangwhan, florian, bigbluehat, littledan, koji, trackbot
07:06:02 [xfq]
xfq has joined #i18n
07:06:17 [DavidClarke]
DavidClarke has joined #i18n
07:06:30 [marcosc]
marcosc has joined #i18n
07:06:35 [r12a]
r12a has joined #i18n
07:15:35 [addison]
https://tools.ietf.org/html/bcp47#page-1-66
07:22:31 [xfq]
xfq has joined #i18n
07:23:40 [Bert]
-> https://drafts.csswg.org/selectors-4/ selectors 4
07:27:39 [atsushi]
-> https://storage.himor.in/20190917-i18n.jpg group photo (no 360deg)
07:29:42 [addison]
https://drafts.csswg.org/css-text-3/#content-language
07:29:55 [r12a-again]
r12a-again has joined #i18n
07:32:55 [r12a_]
r12a_ has joined #i18n
07:33:13 [addison]
zh-* vs. yue-XX, two selectors :lang(zh) and :lang(yue) both match yue-XX----can't separate
07:41:00 [marcosc]
marcosc has joined #i18n
07:42:41 [chaals]
chaals has joined #i18n
07:59:36 [marcosc]
marcosc has joined #i18n
08:03:25 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/17-i18n-minutes.html addison
08:05:04 [r12a]
r12a has joined #i18n
08:05:53 [addison]
zakim, bye
08:05:53 [Zakim]
leaving. As of this point the attendees have been bobbytung, DavidClarke, duerst, Bert, addison, r12a
08:05:53 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #i18n
08:06:29 [addison]
Topic: Adjourning to work our evil individually
08:06:34 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/17-i18n-minutes.html addison
08:07:27 [addison]
rrsagent, draft minutes
08:07:27 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/17-i18n-minutes.html addison
08:16:18 [r12a]
r12a has joined #i18n
08:16:33 [r12a]
addison?
08:17:01 [r12a]
anyone ?
08:17:30 [r12a]
r12a has joined #i18n
08:39:30 [chaals]
chaals has joined #i18n
08:45:20 [marcosc]
marcosc has joined #i18n
08:46:40 [marcosc]
marcosc has joined #i18n
08:56:08 [marcosc]
marcosc has joined #i18n
08:56:59 [yoshiroy]
yoshiroy has joined #i18n
08:57:38 [yoshiroy]
yoshiroy has left #i18n
08:58:03 [marcosc_]
marcosc_ has joined #i18n
09:46:46 [r12a]
r12a has joined #i18n
10:58:38 [marcosc]
marcosc has joined #i18n
11:52:00 [r12a]
r12a has joined #i18n
11:55:06 [marcosc]
marcosc has joined #i18n
11:56:26 [marcosc_]
marcosc_ has joined #i18n
11:57:32 [marcosc]
marcosc has joined #i18n
11:58:44 [marcosc_]
marcosc_ has joined #i18n
12:06:13 [marcosc]
marcosc has joined #i18n
12:21:50 [marcosc]
marcosc has joined #i18n
12:59:49 [karl]
karl has joined #i18n
13:32:13 [r12a]
r12a has joined #i18n
13:36:56 [marcosc_]
marcosc_ has joined #i18n
13:52:38 [xfq]
xfq has joined #i18n
13:54:28 [xfq]
xfq has joined #i18n
14:38:15 [stpeter]
stpeter has joined #i18n
19:19:35 [atsushi]
atsushi has joined #i18n