IRC log of i18n on 2019-09-17
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 00:00:21 [RRSAgent]
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- logging to https://www.w3.org/2019/09/17-i18n-irc
- 00:00:39 [addison]
- Meeting: 2019 TPAC Internationalization (I18N) WG
- 00:00:43 [addison]
- Chair: Addison Phillips
- 00:00:46 [addison]
- Agenda: https://www.w3.org/wiki/I18N_2019_TPAC
- 00:00:52 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/17-i18n-minutes.html addison
- 00:02:19 [addison]
- present+
- 00:02:49 [addison]
- present+ Richard
- 00:02:55 [addison]
- present+ Martin
- 00:03:32 [addison]
- Topic: Agenda
- 00:03:39 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/17-i18n-minutes.html addison
- 00:03:45 [DavidClarke]
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- 00:06:27 [addison]
- https://www.w3.org/wiki/I18N_2019_TPAC
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- 00:08:35 [DavidClarke_]
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- 00:08:41 [duerst]
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- 00:08:56 [addison]
- scribenick: duerst
- 00:09:39 [duerst]
- This is a test.
- 00:09:48 [atsushi]
- test
- 00:11:04 [duerst]
- addison: 20 min before first item in agenda
- 00:11:08 [addison]
- https://www.w3.org/wiki/I18N_2019_TPAC
- 00:11:13 [myles]
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- 00:11:54 [duerst]
- addison: will see CSS at 11:00, then lunch, then CSS again (text transform)
- 00:12:37 [xfq]
- present+ xfq_irc_only
- 00:13:13 [DavidClarke]
- present+
- 00:13:14 [dbaron]
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- 00:13:19 [duerst]
- addison: 14:00 meet with publishing
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- 00:16:22 [duerst]
- addison: backlog: document development planning
- 00:17:19 [duerst]
- r12a: add to agenda: review of RtoL article
- 00:17:27 [duerst]
- R12a
- 00:18:11 [duerst]
- r12a: confirm 14:00 for meeting with publishing
- 00:18:35 [addison]
- Topic: well-formed vs valid
- 00:18:35 [karl]
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- 00:18:36 [addison]
- https://github.com/w3c/bp-i18n-specdev
- 00:18:55 [addison]
- https://github.com/w3c/bp-i18n-specdev/pull/37
- 00:19:26 [addison]
- https://aphillips.github.io/bp-i18n-specdev/#sec_lang_values
- 00:20:01 [duerst]
- addison: will tell you what changed
- 00:20:09 [addison]
- https://aphillips.github.io/bp-i18n-specdev/#lang_values_specificity
- 00:22:28 [duerst]
- addison: Purpose of change was to make distinction between well-formed and valid language tags more explicit. Also, recommend well-formed for specs, valid for content.
- 00:23:25 [r12a_]
- each subtag can have specific length -> each subtag has a specific length
- 00:25:32 [duerst]
- Bert: could we add some examples
- 00:25:59 [duerst]
- duerst: examples can be misleading, people should read the spec (BCP 47)
- 00:26:13 [duerst]
- r12a: We have an article, could point to it.
- 00:26:50 [duerst]
- duerst: article may not be as stable as this spec.
- 00:27:23 [duerst]
- addison: document will not be frozen, it is essentially our live checklist
- 00:28:14 [duerst]
- duerst: you don't have any problems with other groups requesting it to be a rec?
- 00:28:27 [duerst]
- addison: we publish as WD from time to time
- 00:29:26 [duerst]
- addision: article seems to discuss everything about language tags *except* well-formed or valid
- 00:29:26 [marcosc]
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- 00:30:18 [duerst]
- article is https://www.w3.org/International/articles/language-tags/
- 00:33:14 [duerst]
- duerst: 'registry is frequently updated' vs. 'registry is updated sporadically'
- 00:34:07 [karl]
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- 00:36:01 [duerst]
- discussion about meaning of 'sporadically', alternatives suggested, e.g. 'intermittently'
- 00:36:38 [duerst]
- other alternatives: 'occasionally', 'wheneven necessary'; or don't qualify at all
- 00:37:25 [duerst]
- addison: could mention registration process
- 00:37:58 [duerst]
- addison: could take out whole sentence
- 00:38:20 [duerst]
- addison: conclusion: remove word 'sporadically'
- 00:42:02 [duerst]
- r12a: should say which extension we are talking about by using the singleton letter (-u)
- 00:43:19 [duerst]
- duerst: suggest 'One solution is to normatively require "valid" language tags' -> 'One solution is to normatively require *that* "valid" language tags'
- 00:44:28 [jay]
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- 00:44:31 [duerst]
- r12a: We don't say why we don't require specs to validate
- 00:44:45 [addison]
- https://github.com/w3c/bp-i18n-specdev/issues/36
- 00:46:06 [duerst]
- addison: have text in the issue that we could use
- 00:46:23 [addison]
- https://github.com/w3c/bp-i18n-specdev/issues/36#issuecomment-531072094
- 00:49:36 [duerst]
- [addison doing some editing]
- 00:50:15 [addison]
- https://aphillips.github.io/bp-i18n-specdev/#lang_values_specificity
- 00:54:59 [duerst]
- r12a: attribute names should be marked up
- 00:55:06 [Roy_]
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- 00:58:00 [duerst]
- r12a: separate out 'fairly sizeable' sentence into own paragraph, and put it later
- 00:59:14 [duerst]
- [r12a and addison doing further editing]
- 01:00:08 [bobbytung]
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- 01:07:36 [duerst]
- duerst: 'mostly "not that interesting"' is too colloquial, may have been okay for issue, but not for spec
- 01:09:26 [Roy_]
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- 01:13:01 [duerst]
- addison: done with editing
- 01:13:41 [duerst]
- duerst: suggest 'such as spell check, tokenizers, fonts, etc.' → ’’such as spell check*ers*, tokenizers, fonts, etc.
- 01:14:06 [DavidClarke]
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- 01:14:30 [addison]
- Topic: review of article rtl non-rtl
- 01:14:31 [duerst]
- addison: next topic: review of RtL article
- 01:14:32 [addison]
- http://w3c.github.io/i18n-drafts/questions/qa-ltr-scripts-in-rtl.en.html
- 01:15:43 [Roy_]
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- 01:20:16 [r12a_]
- recast the first paragraph as 2 smaller sentences
- 01:20:19 [duerst]
- discussion about whether Japanese imperial stamp is appropriate example
- 01:20:38 [duerst]
- duerst: may need to check with people from China or Korea
- 01:20:48 [r12a_]
- define LTR/RTL abbreviations
- 01:21:21 [duerst]
- duerst: First sentence is long and difficult to parse; first mention of directionality is late
- 01:21:39 [duerst]
- Bert: may give impression that Arabic was LtR at some time
- 01:22:11 [atsushi]
- https://i1.wp.com/339design.net/ningyocho/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/DSC_0049.jpg?resize=768%2C512&ssl=1
- 01:23:31 [r12a]
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- 01:24:14 [Judy]
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- 01:24:21 [marcosc]
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- 01:27:50 [duerst]
- duerst: text color could be darker
- 01:27:51 [r12a]
- fig 6, change word 'code'
- 01:28:09 [duerst]
- duerst: starting to experience accessibility as a personal issue
- 01:28:23 [duerst]
- others: text color lighter on windows than on mac
- 01:28:35 [duerst]
- duerst: Fig. 9 mentions code, but there's no code
- 01:29:40 [duerst]
- r12a: fig. 6
- 01:30:52 [bobbytung]
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- 01:38:19 [duerst]
- duerst: markup should not say 'dir=ltr', because it's intended to be rtl.
- 01:39:00 [bobbytung]
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- 01:39:05 [duerst]
- CSS should include 'direction: ltr' because that works together with rotation
- 01:39:59 [duerst]
- r12a: element might be span rather than bdo
- 01:41:52 [duerst]
- duerst: markup shouldn't change depending on font. font issues should be absorbed by stylesheet when possible.
- 01:44:02 [duerst]
- adjourned for break, meet at 11:00 with CSS, room downstairs
- 01:44:11 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/17-i18n-minutes.html addison
- 01:44:31 [r12a]
- change code for fig 6 to use bdo dir=rtl and clarify that the css may not work
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- 02:09:23 [addison]
- NOTE: I18N is *not* meeting CSS currently. Fantasai will ping us if needed.
- 02:09:35 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/17-i18n-minutes.html addison
- 02:09:55 [fantasai]
- addison, best guess is 11:30
- 02:10:10 [fantasai]
- we only have two items on the agenda from CSS side, still waiting to hear from a11y where they're at
- 02:10:14 [duerst]
- scribenick: duerst
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- 02:12:38 [duerst]
- addison: met charles, he is interested in organizing something about JSON directionality tomorrow
- 02:13:11 [chaals]
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- 02:13:31 [tink]
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- 02:13:51 [r12a]
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- 02:14:30 [duerst]
- duerst: talked to Arnaud Le Hors (IBM AC rep) yesterday about XML 1.1
- 02:14:40 [r12a-again]
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- 02:15:23 [duerst]
- IBM may have input into XML 1.1 obsoletion because XML 1.1 allows NEL (EBCDIC linebreak) as line break, but not XML 1.0
- 02:16:27 [duerst]
- addison: talk about "Unicode in XML and other markup languages"
- 02:16:37 [DavidClarke]
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- 02:19:44 [duerst]
- duerst: looked at porting to respec or bikeshed at one point, but steep learning curve
- 02:20:46 [duerst]
- duerst: also, not sure about demand
- 02:22:08 [bobbytung]
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- 02:25:20 [addison]
- [discussion of unicode-xml]
- 02:25:47 [duerst]
- duerst: also, two organizations involved made things more difficult
- 02:25:57 [Zakim]
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- 02:26:02 [duerst]
- addison: Unicode Consortium no longer involved
- 02:26:08 [Zakim]
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- 02:26:27 [duerst]
- duerst: have questions that would be discussed in this document actually come up, e.g. in reviews?
- 02:26:30 [atsushi]
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- 02:26:37 [addison]
- present+ bobbytung
- 02:26:39 [duerst]
- addison: not really
- 02:27:02 [addison]
- Topic: Document Development
- 02:27:05 [DavidClarke]
- present+
- 02:27:05 [duerst]
- present+ duerst
- 02:27:07 [Bert]
- present+
- 02:27:47 [addison]
- present+
- 02:27:47 [duerst]
- present+ r12a
- 02:27:57 [r12a]
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- 02:28:23 [addison]
- http://w3c.github.io/i18n-activity/projects/
- 02:29:16 [duerst]
- addison: looking at backlog
- 02:32:47 [duerst]
- addison: would like to get to language tags and locale identifiers document at some time
- 02:33:08 [addison]
- www.org/TR/ltli
- 02:33:57 [dsinger]
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- 02:38:03 [duerst]
- r12a: ruby content model document may no longer be needed
- 02:40:24 [bobbytung]
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- 02:40:57 [addison]
- need to add: https://w3c.github.io/string-search/
- 02:44:15 [duerst]
- addison: this document contains some pieces that were not ready for publication when charmod-norm was published.
- 02:44:30 [duerst]
- maybe these pieces will never be ready.
- 02:44:48 [duerst]
- there is not yet a first public WD
- 02:45:17 [duerst]
- r12a: one main reason for FPWD is to get feedback
- 02:47:37 [addison]
- https://www.w3.org/TR/timezone/
- 02:48:20 [DavidClarke]
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- 02:49:11 [duerst]
- a document about time in the IETF: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-touch-time-05
- 02:49:15 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/17-i18n-minutes.html addison
- 02:53:21 [chaals]
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- 02:54:24 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/17-i18n-minutes.html addison
- 02:54:30 [addison]
- Topic: Lunch
- 03:02:25 [marcosc]
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- present+
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- Topic: CSS+I18N
- 04:04:05 [addison]
- scribenick: addison
- 04:04:27 [addison]
- NOTE: we're meeting with CSS from 1300 to 1400 in their room. IRC is #css
- 04:04:33 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/17-i18n-minutes.html addison
- 04:06:03 [duerst]
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- 05:01:58 [r12a]
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- 05:02:23 [fantasai]
- r12a, porbably all the issues in https://wiki.csswg.org/planning/tpac-2019 under text could use i18n feedback
- 05:04:07 [xfq]
- especially the part under "Internationalization joint meeting"
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- 05:06:50 [addison_]
- Topic: Meeting with Publishing (PWG)
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- present+
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- 06:48:16 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/17-i18n-minutes.html addison
- 06:53:44 [r12a]
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- present+
- 07:02:38 [addison]
- zakim, who is here?
- 07:02:38 [Zakim]
- Present: bobbytung, DavidClarke, duerst, Bert, addison, r12a
- 07:02:40 [Zakim]
- On IRC I see duerst, r12a, r12a-again, atsushi, addison, chaals, karl, yoshiroy, myles, Zakim, RRSAgent, hadleybeeman, cwilso, weiler, wseltzer, hober, Mek, fantasai, Bert,
- 07:02:40 [Zakim]
- ... sangwhan, florian, bigbluehat, littledan, koji, trackbot
- 07:06:02 [xfq]
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- 07:06:30 [marcosc]
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- 07:06:35 [r12a]
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- 07:15:35 [addison]
- https://tools.ietf.org/html/bcp47#page-1-66
- 07:22:31 [xfq]
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- 07:23:40 [Bert]
- -> https://drafts.csswg.org/selectors-4/ selectors 4
- 07:27:39 [atsushi]
- -> https://storage.himor.in/20190917-i18n.jpg group photo (no 360deg)
- 07:29:42 [addison]
- https://drafts.csswg.org/css-text-3/#content-language
- 07:29:55 [r12a-again]
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- 07:33:13 [addison]
- zh-* vs. yue-XX, two selectors :lang(zh) and :lang(yue) both match yue-XX----can't separate
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- 08:03:25 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/17-i18n-minutes.html addison
- 08:05:04 [r12a]
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- 08:05:53 [addison]
- zakim, bye
- 08:05:53 [Zakim]
- leaving. As of this point the attendees have been bobbytung, DavidClarke, duerst, Bert, addison, r12a
- 08:05:53 [Zakim]
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- 08:06:29 [addison]
- Topic: Adjourning to work our evil individually
- 08:06:34 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/17-i18n-minutes.html addison
- 08:07:27 [addison]
- rrsagent, draft minutes
- 08:07:27 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/17-i18n-minutes.html addison
- 08:16:18 [r12a]
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- addison?
- 08:17:01 [r12a]
- anyone ?
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