IRC log of colorweb on 2019-09-17

Timestamps are in UTC.

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logging to https://www.w3.org/2019/09/17-colorweb-irc
06:23:44 [chris]
rrsagent, make logs public
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06:36:39 [cyril]
scribe: Cyril
06:36:53 [cyril]
Chair: Chris Lilley
06:37:20 [cyril]
Introductions
06:37:30 [cyril]
Chris, vice-chair of the ICC working group
06:37:37 [cyril]
ICC secretary
06:37:44 [cyril]
Francois Daoust, W3C staff
06:37:55 [cyril]
Chris Needham, BBC
06:38:01 [cyril]
Mark Watson, Netflix
06:38:08 [cyril]
Cyril Concolato, Netflix
06:38:15 [cyril]
Greg Freedman, Netflix
06:38:20 [cyril]
Chris Lilley, W3C
06:38:28 [cyril]
JEan-Yves Avenard, Mozilla
06:38:33 [cyril]
Jer Noble, Apple
06:38:45 [cyril]
Chris Cunningham, Google
06:38:59 [cyril]
Simon Fraser, Apple
06:39:07 [smfr]
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06:39:22 [cyril]
chris: 3 topics for discussion
06:39:32 [cyril]
... HDR on the web
06:39:35 [chcunningham]
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06:39:35 [cyril]
... Image format
06:39:47 [cyril]
... Working color space and CSS
06:39:57 [cyril]
simon: prefer to start with CSS
06:40:18 [cyril]
Topic: Working Color Space
06:40:20 [chris]
chris has changed the topic to: Working Colorspace in CSS Color 4
06:40:43 [cyril]
chris: in CSS, sRGB was used from the beginning
06:40:53 [cyril]
... nobody cared about that for a while
06:41:10 [cyril]
... then we added transparency with compatibility for Photoshop
06:41:24 [cyril]
... then in CSS Color 4 we added more color spaces
06:41:41 [cyril]
... but when you have 2 color spaces, there is a need to describe what happens
06:42:00 [cyril]
... and for compatibility we still used sRGB, which has problems
06:42:26 [cyril]
... to my mind, we need at least XYZ and Lab
06:42:35 [cyril]
but Apple uses linearized sRGB
06:42:46 [cyril]
... with negative vlues
06:42:55 [cyril]
markw: I think Microsoft also uses that
06:43:05 [cyril]
chris: I looked at scRGB
06:43:12 [cyril]
... but it seemed scene-refered
06:43:37 [cyril]
... linearized seems a reasonable option
06:43:46 [Riju]
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06:43:49 [cyril]
... but currently browsers store a triplet of RGB in 8 bits
06:43:58 [cyril]
... there's going to be an increase in space
06:44:05 [cyril]
... storage space
06:44:23 [cyril]
... maybe some parts of the page could still use sRGB and other the linearized space
06:44:39 [cyril]
simon: it seems that linear srGB is an option?
06:44:41 [cyril]
chris: yes
06:45:11 [cyril]
simon: having a compositing color space as a CSS property would be problematic
06:45:17 [cyril]
... with impact on the stacking context
06:45:34 [cyril]
... implementations often pop out elements into GPU textures
06:45:48 [cyril]
... on Apple platform, the architecture that we use does not allow the control of the color space
06:45:56 [cyril]
... we would only have control on a per page basis
06:46:08 [cyril]
chris: I can see advantages of that
06:46:22 [cyril]
... but we you switch it on, it changes the whole page
06:46:36 [cyril]
markw: the obvious question that bleeds into the next topic
06:46:46 [cyril]
... true sRGB are going to map to 0,1
06:47:05 [cyril]
... how do I specify luminance values that are outside the sRGB range
06:47:21 [cyril]
chris: sRGB says the luminance is 80nits, but it's not true
06:48:12 [cyril]
markw: [scribe lost]
06:48:33 [markw]
how do we get HDR colors into this sRGB linear space ?
06:49:25 [leonardr]
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06:49:37 [chris]
ITU-R BT.2408-2 states "Graphics White is defined within the scope of this Report as the equivalent in the graphics domain of a 100% reflectance white card: the signal level of a flat, white element without any specular highlights within a graphic element. It therefore has the same signal level as HDR Reference White, and graphics should be inserted based on this level."
06:49:45 [cyril]
markw: there are a number of specs here and there that indicate what the peak value is
06:49:50 [chris]
For PQ this is defined as 58% and for HLG 75%. If you display those signals on a PQ monitor or a 1000cd/m^2 HLG monitor it comes out at 203 cd/m^2. On different brightness HLG monitors, the HLG adaptive system gamma implemented in the screen will maintain the perceptual contrast without any requirement of metadata.
06:49:59 [cyril]
... in windows you have 2 settings to control that
06:50:25 [cyril]
... the peak white of sRGB is whatever the user has selected what the paper white is
06:50:57 [cyril]
... the relation between SDR and HDR is not fixed and depends on the user settings
06:51:12 [markw]
if we have e.g. a PQ coded pixel what do we map that to ? There is no canonical way to match together SDR and HDR
06:51:12 [cyril]
... is there some reason why some of these have to be exposed to the web user?
06:51:31 [cyril]
chris: some people may prefer things brighter
06:51:45 [cyril]
jeanyves: can you have a generic SDR to HDR conversion?
06:51:57 [cyril]
chris: no you can have 2 for HLG and PQ
06:52:38 [cyril]
jeanyves: is there a point in defining a default that will never work>
06:52:47 [cyril]
chris: I'm optimistic that it can work
06:53:39 [cyril]
chris: sometimes the UI of some service on some TVs is really blinding
06:54:07 [cyril]
markw: it depends on how the TV does the SDR/HDR compositing
06:54:14 [cyril]
... we don't have the control
06:54:34 [cyril]
chris: the best we can do is define a mapping, that is the default mapping
06:54:51 [cyril]
... and then say that the user may adjust it for preferences, and the system also may adjust
06:55:03 [cyril]
markw: how can we specify that a color is in an HDR color
06:55:10 [cyril]
chris: CSS Color 4 has support
06:55:20 [cyril]
markw: for the gamut not the luminance
06:55:38 [cyril]
... how do I tell CSS that I want an HDR color not an SDR color
06:56:22 [cyril]
... we could use a boolean to indicate if a color is an HDR one
06:56:30 [cyril]
... and leave the relationship unspecified
06:56:32 [chris]
so it would be rec2020(r, g, b, bool)
06:56:49 [cyril]
markw: metadata is a different thing
06:57:00 [cyril]
chris: It could say SDR, PQ or HLG
06:57:19 [cyril]
markw: if it is a coded value yes
06:57:54 [chris]
chrisbao: so y are looking at this from media pov not display pov
06:58:12 [cyril]
... one of the ways we could define our objective is to say that I have an HDR video frame rendered in a video element and rendered side by side using CSS and they look the same
06:58:26 [cyril]
... not sure it's feasible
06:59:00 [cyril]
markw: you could also use capability detection to know that the browser does not support that
06:59:20 [cyril]
... but having the same rendering for the video pipeline and the graphics pipeline
07:00:51 [cyril]
cyril: in TTML, there is a way to specify a gain to apply to the subtitle compared to 80nits
07:01:21 [cyril]
chris: we moved from color space to HDR, and it's good, it should not work on SDR only
07:01:29 [cyril]
... but the question is control at element level or page level
07:01:49 [cyril]
simon: it's hard from an implementation perspective to have element control
07:02:21 [cyril]
chris: Google?
07:02:43 [cyril]
chris_c: I'll defer to the experts in the room
07:03:15 [cyril]
markw: for each video that is on the screen, we need the metadata to apply to each video
07:03:35 [cyril]
... so if we want the graphics to match the video, we need to adjust each graphics to the matchign video
07:03:59 [cyril]
... I don't know if this needs multiple working color spaces
07:04:11 [cyril]
chris: in PiP on TVs are they in separate planes?
07:04:19 [cyril]
chrisbao: not every vendor can do that
07:04:32 [cyril]
... some do separately, different color gamuts, tone mapping
07:04:48 [cyril]
markw: the metadata drive tone mapping is an optimization
07:05:15 [cyril]
chris: if much of the web content to be composited is going to be SDR, we should signal
07:05:26 [cyril]
markw: there is no tone mapping issue for SDR, you don't care
07:05:35 [cyril]
... the peak is 80nits or 100nits
07:05:44 [cyril]
chris: Adobe RGB is 160nits
07:05:54 [cyril]
... and proPhoto is even more
07:06:00 [cyril]
markw: I scoped my comment to video
07:06:21 [cyril]
chris: but we have photographers who want to display their photos
07:06:53 [cyril]
cyril: where would the control at page or element level be specified?
07:06:55 [chcunningham]
Re: "but the question is control at element level or page level" - I'll source an opinion from compositing / color folks in Chromium
07:07:01 [cyril]
chris: it would be in the CSS Color 4 spec
07:07:32 [cyril]
... the problem is that you would have to opt-in for a slower path for the whole page?
07:07:53 [cyril]
markw: how does the current renderer deal with luminance differences between sRGB spaces?
07:08:03 [cyril]
chris: it is ignored
07:08:13 [cyril]
... some browsers will convert ICC profiles
07:08:47 [cyril]
chris: at this point, we will capture that as an issue with drawbacks
07:09:00 [cyril]
... I don't get a sense that there is a solution
07:09:17 [cyril]
... but it seems that people care about designing for HDR from the beginning
07:09:43 [markw]
s/we need the metadata to apply to each video/we need the metadata to apply the correct tone mapping to each video/
07:09:50 [cyril]
[]: I created an experiment using OpenCV.js, and Canvas is 8 bit so I have to tone map
07:09:59 [cyril]
... are we proposing to increase canvas bit depth?
07:10:07 [cyril]
chris: there is discussion going on
07:10:13 [cyril]
simon: I think it's generally accepted
07:10:20 [markw]
s/adjust each graphics to the matchign video/apply tone mapping to each graphics area to the match the video
07:10:46 [cyril]
chris: I think they used half floats
07:11:08 [cyril]
[]: what is the percentage of displays capable of doing HDR?
07:11:12 [markw]
s/the peak is 80nits or 100nits/the peak is 80nits or 100nits which is less than the display capability
07:12:05 [cyril]
chris: not known, but we can assume it is going to increase
07:12:24 [cyril]
... people consume even ordinary content in bright sunlight
07:12:34 [cyril]
... displays are having that capability
07:13:19 [cyril]
... PQ assumes a dark room, HLG too to some extent
07:13:58 [cyril]
riju: we are shipping some ambient light system for that
07:14:11 [cyril]
markw: ambient light system is going to happen
07:14:19 [cyril]
... there is no need for APIs to do that
07:14:32 [chris]
chris has changed the topic to: HDR color in CSS
07:14:46 [cyril]
Topic: HDR Color in CSS
07:14:47 [cyril]
simon: there is a desire for people to specify color in HDR
07:14:56 [cyril]
.. this is going to have an impact on the user experience
07:15:00 [cyril]
... like power usage
07:15:11 [cyril]
... we may want to limit the use of these colors
07:15:30 [cyril]
markw: the outer page could specify limits on the inner page
07:16:05 [cyril]
sushraja: feature policy may be a good way to restrict
07:16:08 [cyril]
chris: good point
07:16:26 [cyril]
... anything more on this topic?
07:16:45 [cyril]
phil: bgsRGB is another flavor of sRGB
07:16:55 [cyril]
... it's part of the IEC specification that includes sRGB
07:17:17 [cyril]
markw: are we in agreement in what is needed and what is the process?
07:17:34 [cyril]
... the question of tone mapping and metadata, is it part of the problem?
07:17:56 [cyril]
... what is the next steps to gather the requirements and develop them further
07:18:05 [cyril]
chris: in this case, we need a requirements document
07:18:18 [cyril]
... because we don't collectively understand the same issues
07:18:30 [cyril]
phil: there are different views in the ICC org
07:18:43 [cyril]
... ICC is not going to be the answer for dynamic content
07:19:12 [cyril]
... we need to be realistic in where ICC can contribute
07:19:37 [cyril]
... we have practical implementations in 2 areas:
07:19:56 [cyril]
... Adobe have main profile for HLG and PQ display
07:20:42 [cyril]
s/HLG and PQ display/HLG scene and HLG display and PQ display
07:21:03 [cyril]
... it is LUT-based
07:21:28 [cyril]
... those are used in Adobe products
07:21:53 [cyril]
... in ICC version 4, we have a single white point
07:22:01 [cyril]
... that's worked very well, until HDR
07:22:11 [cyril]
... diffuse white/graphics white and display
07:22:17 [cyril]
chris: you have 3
07:22:45 [cyril]
phil: you map peak white to peak white using a variety of transforms
07:22:45 [chris]
diffuse white, ful screen peak white, small hilight peak white
07:23:36 [cyril]
... the Adobe implementation is based on mapping the diffuse whites
07:23:52 [cyril]
... and that's been quite successful
07:24:20 [cyril]
... we haven't decided which way we ant to go and we'd like to get feedback from this group
07:24:33 [cyril]
markw: it'd be good to have a document to send to our experts
07:25:47 [cyril]
s/[]/riju/
07:26:20 [markw]
scribe: markw
07:26:31 [chris]
scribenick: markw
07:27:00 [markw]
phil: v4 based ion mapping white point to white point - media white to media white
07:27:18 [chris]
s/v4/ICC v4/
07:27:22 [markw]
... however, with HDR need to decide on white point - media peak white can't be mapped to sdr peak
07:27:48 [markw]
.. as that would compress. One soln is to map graphics white to sdr peak white.
07:28:13 [markw]
... PCS white point is based on illuminant D50 - 100cd/m2
07:29:17 [markw]
chris: ICC working on better write up of the problem statement - how to deal with HDR in ICC profiles
07:29:50 [markw]
pal: not convinced that the solution based on ICC is necessary for HDR color on the web
07:30:01 [markw]
chris: what info do we need ?
07:30:15 [markw]
pal: enumerated color spaces - not that many
07:30:59 [markw]
... for entertainment media ITU-T etc. have enumerated the color spaces that are used
07:31:42 [markw]
phil: ICC is just a way of packaging those things
07:32:00 [markw]
pal: but it is very general. We should start with the ones people use
07:32:24 [markw]
phil: ICCmax has a reference encoding profile feature - instead of specifying a transform you point to it - e.g. with a URL
07:32:47 [markw]
chris: ICCmax also has calculator and floating point
07:32:57 [markw]
pal: what's the problem starting with something simple
07:33:17 [cyril]
-> CSS Color Level 4: https://www.w3.org/TR/css-color-4/
07:33:33 [markw]
chris: CSS Color 4 has enumerated set of color spaces. There is a proposal to have an Annex which maps those enumerated spaces to full ICC profile
07:34:00 [markw]
chris: also have @profile way to fetch a full ICC profile. At least Google don't want to fetch arbitrary profiles
07:34:08 [markw]
... publishing people want full profile support
07:34:23 [cyril]
CSS color space enumeration: https://www.w3.org/TR/css-color-4/#predefined
07:34:31 [markw]
... print formatting a rather different space
07:34:56 [markw]
pal: so why not expand that enumerated list with HDR >
07:35:09 [markw]
chris: which ones ?
07:35:22 [markw]
pal: basically there are two: HLG and PQ
07:35:36 [markw]
pal: typically used with 2020
07:35:46 [markw]
markw: not just typically, universally
07:36:59 [markw]
chris: so we could have those two - mark had suggested a boolean
07:37:33 [markw]
markw: that was for color specified in linear space: need to say which linear space. Agree with enumeration for PQ and HLG when the data is coded with the TF
07:37:54 [markw]
cyril: TTML has a way to specify the gain applied for PQ and there is a default way to do that for HLG
07:38:06 [markw]
... so why not do the same here ?
07:38:31 [markw]
pal: you need to specify whether the =pixels are coded u HLG or PQ. Is there any downside to that path ?
07:38:37 [smfr]
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07:38:51 [cyril]
s/=pixels/pixels
07:39:08 [markw]
... suppose I am creating a professional authoring application for images - just can't do that in canvas today
07:39:15 [markw]
chris: why not
07:39:26 [markw]
pal: no way to specify HDR text / colors in CSS
07:40:46 [markw]
markw: new enumeration vbalues for 2020pg and 2020hlg would be great, as long as it is understood that what you get after converting to linear is in a different scale than sRGB
07:40:59 [markw]
chris: great, but will anyone implement it ?
07:41:22 [markw]
jer: for Apple have to check with Dean Jackson and Simon Fasier
07:43:13 [markw]
chris(c): problem has been lack on consensus to date
07:43:42 [markw]
jean-yves: interest in HDR so far has been for video
07:43:43 [chris]
topic: HDR image format
07:44:08 [markw]
chris: w3c would like there to be an image format that everyone can use
07:44:19 [markw]
... don't want fragmentation, like we have today
07:44:36 [markw]
... SVG requires PNG and JPEG
07:44:47 [markw]
... W3C does not want to develop a new image format from scratc
07:45:04 [markw]
... if there is something that exists that is open and RF we would prefer that
07:45:32 [markw]
pal: not just format, but full image codec ? target >
07:46:04 [markw]
cyril: at least one candidate: AVIF
07:46:07 [markw]
chris: HEIF ?
07:46:21 [markw]
cyril: HEIF is the file structure, but you can put any codec in it: HEVC, AV-1 etc.
07:46:39 [markw]
pal: HT J2K
07:46:57 [markw]
... It's J2K with lower computational complexity
07:47:26 [markw]
s/HEVC, AV-1 etc./HEVC, AV-1 etc. (AVIF is the name for AV-1 in the same codec)
07:48:12 [markw]
markw: many people unhappy about the licensing uncertainty associated with HEVC
07:48:46 [markw]
pal: HT J2K format is called JPH
07:50:01 [markw]
markw: HEIF is a container, when used with AV-1 it's called AVIF
07:50:29 [markw]
cyril: HEIF is a container specification, MIAF is a restriction that provides context for different codecs
07:50:49 [markw]
... AVIF further restricts MIAF for AV-1 codec
07:50:57 [pal]
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07:51:27 [cyril]
-> ISO/IEC 23008-12: https://www.iso.org/standard/66067.html
07:51:29 [markw]
jer: HEIF on Apple platforms is usually HEVC. Also supports live photos (short video)
07:52:24 [cyril]
-> ISO/IEC 23000-22: https://www.iso.org/standard/74417.html
07:52:38 [markw]
chris: are the libraries that can be picke dup and used, that are widely deployed ?
07:52:43 [cyril]
-> AV1 Image Format: https://aomediacodec.github.io/av1-avif/
07:53:08 [markw]
markw: AV-1 has open source RF library - not yet widely deployed because it is new
07:53:13 [markw]
pal: same for HT J2K
07:53:32 [markw]
cyril: is it lossless or lossy ? compression ratio
07:53:35 [markw]
... ?
07:53:55 [markw]
pal: either lossless or lossy, range of compression ratios as you would expect
07:54:30 [markw]
... just a lot more computationally efficient as it changes the arithmetic codec
07:54:42 [markw]
s/arithmetic codec/arithmetic coder/
07:55:20 [markw]
chris: how should we proceed ? got some candidates. Should we put together a doc with pros & cons etc. with an object of defining one winner ?
07:55:37 [markw]
... could have more than one but one would be ideal
07:56:05 [markw]
chris: I assume there are test images ?
07:56:35 [markw]
cyril: colorist tool (made by a Netflix engineer) can generate synthetic images and do ICC conversions
07:56:36 [pal]
pal: HTJ2K is defined in ISO/IEC 15444-15 | ITU T.814 ("Information technology - JPEG 2000 image coding system: High-throughput JPEG 2000") https://www.itu.int/rec/T-REC-T.814-201906-I
07:57:01 [cyril]
-> Colorist: https://github.com/joedrago/colorist
07:58:24 [markw]
markw: there are evaluations of AVIF on JPEG test set from their last CfC
07:58:49 [markw]
chris: sounds like a document on this would a good idea. I'll start something.
07:59:10 [markw]
chris(n): I had started a document already that was for internal use but could be a basis for a CG report
07:59:24 [markw]
chris: can we put that in the W3C giuthub ?
07:59:36 [markw]
chris(n): sure - I already converted it to Respec
07:59:50 [cyril]
-> HEIF, freely available spec : https://standards.iso.org/ittf/PubliclyAvailableStandards/c066067_ISO_IEC_23008-12_2017.zip
07:59:54 [markw]
pal: who was asking for image format ?
08:00:02 [markw]
chris: came up last year
08:00:11 [sushrajaMSFT]
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08:00:29 [markw]
chris: content creators would probably like some guidance
08:00:48 [markw]
... and if there is consensus that browsers more likely to support
08:00:56 [chcunningham]
https://bugs.chromium.org/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=960620#c1
08:01:06 [markw]
... do browsers already support these things ?
08:01:08 [chcunningham]
^^ chrome
08:01:32 [markw]
jer: we disabled a few because we didn't want to expose them to the web due to security
08:01:41 [markw]
chris(c): we have a bug for AVIF support in Chrome
08:01:53 [markw]
jean-yves: pushing WebP
08:02:18 [Zakim]
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08:02:37 [markw]
chris: anything else on image formats ? sounds like formats exist and we need to choose
08:03:09 [markw]
markw: next steps ?
08:03:38 [markw]
chris: I will take on chris n's document and get it into the GitHub and then we can work in the GitHub repo
08:04:01 [markw]
s/get it into/get it or something based on it/
08:05:43 [markw]
cyril:
08:06:22 [markw]
... breakout session tomorrow at 5.30 on images on the web, not specifically HDR. Question of MIME types, use of video vs image for sequences
08:06:58 [markw]
... AVIF has an Annex defining two media types, one for still images and one for sequences, but Mozilla ask why have two if everyone supports both
08:07:17 [cyril]
-> Proposed break out on images tomorrow: https://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC/2019/SessionIdeas#Images_on_the_Web
08:07:31 [markw]
chris: similar discussions on PNG, but it still doesn't have a media type ... ideological video vs image debate has derailed things in the past
08:07:53 [markw]
markw: shall we have a call in a couple of months ?
08:09:04 [markw]
chfris: suggest early december or january
08:09:40 [markw]
... consensus for december ...
08:09:46 [markw]
chris: I'll do a doodle
08:09:57 [markw]
chris(n): where's the mailing list /
08:10:04 [chris]
public-colorweb@w3.org
08:10:51 [markw]
https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-colorweb/
08:10:59 [cyril]
RRSAgent, make minutes
08:10:59 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/17-colorweb-minutes.html cyril
08:11:14 [markw]
https://github.com/w3c/ColorWeb-CG
08:11:21 [markw]
RSSAgent, make minutess
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smfr has left #colorweb
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pal has joined #colorweb
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pal has joined #colorweb
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pal has joined #colorweb