IRC log of pwg on 2019-09-16

Timestamps are in UTC.

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logging to https://www.w3.org/2019/09/16-pwg-irc
22:53:22 [ivan]
rrsagent, set log public
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Meeting: Publishing Working Group F2F in Fukuoka — Second day
22:53:22 [ivan]
Date: 2019-09-17
22:53:22 [ivan]
Agenda: http://tinyurl.com/y366u6u8
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Regrets+ ivan
22:53:23 [ivan]
Chair: wendy, garth
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present+
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present+ Jemma
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present+
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present+
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present+
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present+
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present+
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present+
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present+
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I'm logging. I don't understand 'the meeting spans midnight', wendyreid. Try /msg RRSAgent help
00:03:43 [bigbluehat]
present+
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Meeting: Publishing Working Group F2F Day 2
00:04:22 [wendyreid]
Chair: wendyreid
00:04:22 [ZoeBijl]
present+
00:04:23 [shu]
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00:04:25 [romain]
present+
00:04:29 [Avneesh]
present+
00:04:33 [Ralph]
scribe+
00:04:36 [wendyreid]
Date: 2019-09-17
00:04:46 [George]
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Agenda: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Q8PUjzMY04peuYZdTkA6A0BBoFea_BSK4ygJlphkzh8/edit#
00:05:29 [wendyreid]
https://global.gotomeeting.com/join/994278485
00:05:30 [Ralph]
present+ GeorgeK
00:05:41 [Yanni]
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00:05:42 [wendyreid]
present+
00:05:46 [George]
present+
00:05:46 [Ralph]
present+ MattG
00:05:52 [Yanni]
present+
00:06:01 [Ralph]
topic: ARIA WG meeting
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00:06:18 [Ralph]
Wendy: welcome ARIA friends!
00:06:43 [Ralph]
JoanieDiggs: myself and James Nurtham
00:06:53 [Ralph]
... you have a DPUB ARIA 2.0 deliverable in your charter
00:07:04 [Ralph]
... we're wondering about this
00:07:05 [joanie]
https://github.com/w3c/dpub-aria/issues/10
00:07:25 [Ralph]
... Aaron Leventhal (Google) filed this ^^ issue
00:07:29 [mck]
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00:07:31 [laurent]
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00:07:31 [Ralph]
... running headers on footers
00:07:39 [Ralph]
... a JAWS developer thinks this is a good idea
00:07:49 [Ralph]
.. the ARIA WG also thinks this is a good idea
00:07:55 [Ralph]
... but the ARIA WG doesn't own this spec
00:07:58 [mck]
present+ Matt-King
00:08:07 [Ralph]
Wendy: Pub WG isn't currently working on dpub-aria 2.0
00:08:21 [Ralph]
... Tzviya knows more about this
00:08:35 [duga]
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00:08:35 [Ralph]
MattG: we had started proposing that we'd do a 2.0
00:08:42 [duga]
present+
00:08:58 [Ralph]
... we've been working on the larger issue of semantics in publishing
00:09:08 [Ralph]
... early in this period we decided to scale back
00:09:18 [Ralph]
... and do a dpub-aria 1.1 to fix some of the issues in 1.0
00:09:29 [Ralph]
... focussing on owned elements and parent semantics
00:09:51 [jroque]
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00:09:51 [Ralph]
... we didn't want to add a lot more semantics before there is more implementation in AT
00:10:02 [Ralph]
... when Aaron proposed this I did understand his use case
00:10:07 [Ralph]
... I agree it would be useful
00:10:18 [ReinaldoFerraz]
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00:10:21 [Ralph]
... we've been consumed with Web Publications and Manifest
00:10:32 [Ralph]
... so we haven't reconvened the dpub-aria TF
00:10:48 [Ralph]
... I don't know if the group will still prefer to focus on a 1.1 rather than 2.0
00:10:49 [dauwhe]
q+
00:10:52 [Avneesh]
q+
00:10:53 [Rachel]
q+
00:10:56 [Ralph]
... it's probably time to reconvene that TF
00:11:02 [wendyreid]
ack dauwhe
00:11:20 [Ralph]
dauwhe: how are running headers and footers expressed in markup?
00:11:26 [JuanCorona]
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00:11:29 [romain]
q+
00:11:36 [JuanCorona]
present+
00:11:48 [Ralph]
... there are largely unimplemented CSS specs where this doesn't appear in markup so there's no place to attach a role
00:11:53 [Ralph]
Joanie: maybe
00:12:08 [Jemma]
ttps://github.com/w3c/dpub-aria/issues/10
00:12:10 [Ralph]
... would you comment in the issue with that question, so Aaron can answer?
00:12:11 [wendyreid]
ack Avneesh
00:12:19 [Ralph]
Avneesh: +1 to what Matt said
00:12:25 [bigbluehat]
https://github.com/w3c/dpub-aria/issues/10
00:12:42 [Ralph]
... we're looking for AT implementations before doing a lot more work
00:12:55 [joanie]
q+ To discuss the implementation/support in screen readers
00:13:04 [Ralph]
... one question was whether page numbering was being mixed with running headers/footers
00:13:12 [achraf]
present+
00:13:21 [Ralph]
... this has to be resolved in more discussion; there's not consensus yet
00:13:40 [Rachel]
q- Avneesh said everything I wanted to
00:13:42 [Ralph]
... another question: are there threats to this attribute? we need identities for extended descriptions
00:13:44 [Rachel]
q-
00:13:54 [Ralph]
Joanie: we're discussing this 1:30 to 2:30 today
00:14:12 [wendyreid]
ack romain
00:14:37 [wendyreid]
ack joanie
00:14:37 [Zakim]
joanie, you wanted to discuss the implementation/support in screen readers
00:14:39 [Ralph]
Romain: we also wanted to take a fresh look at ARIA in HTML before taking up dpub-aria again
00:14:54 [Ralph]
Joanie: on wanting to see more implementations, I'm curious
00:15:17 [Ralph]
... the way the mappings were done, many were done to landmarks and they work automatically in AT that does landmark navigation
00:15:31 [Ralph]
... so there is already support for roles that map to links, list items, etc.
00:15:38 [r12a_]
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00:15:46 [Ralph]
... the goal is to make ARIA work automatically in platforms
00:15:50 [romain]
q?
00:15:51 [bigbluehat]
q?
00:15:51 [dauwhe]
q?
00:15:54 [mattg]
q+
00:16:39 [ReinaldoFerraz]
present+
00:16:43 [Ralph]
Avneesh: aria-role=doctitle -- screen readers should know this is the title and should say "Title" then read the title
00:16:48 [Ralph]
Joanie: are you filing issues?
00:16:51 [Ralph]
Avneesh: yes
00:17:08 [Ralph]
Joanie: because the word "title" isn't spoken, are you saying this isn't implemented?
00:17:26 [Ralph]
MattKing: we don't tell AT what exactly to do
00:17:41 [Ralph]
... but I am working on a project to try to clearly define some level of expectations for screen readers
00:17:53 [Ralph]
... but this still won't define what word to use
00:18:12 [Ralph]
... if a screen reader uses the word "title" instead of "heading" consistently, that would be fine
00:18:21 [Ralph]
... its users become accustomed to that
00:18:33 [Ralph]
... does the spec have to say the word must be "title"?
00:18:46 [Ralph]
Avneesh: we can make some recommendations to screen readers
00:19:02 [laudrain]
q?
00:19:11 [Ralph]
... the purpose of the roles is to help the AT describe what sort of material it is reading
00:19:23 [ivan]
q+
00:19:25 [Ralph]
MattG: there's two parts to implementation issues
00:19:27 [wendyreid]
ack mattg
00:19:43 [Ralph]
... some bugs; e.g. in doc cover
00:20:03 [Ralph]
... on the publishing side we also want to understand what seantics are the most useful
00:20:20 [Ralph]
... what semantics actually improve reading ommprehension
00:20:22 [laudrain]
q+
00:20:33 [Ralph]
... what do we expect from the semantics?
00:20:34 [ivan]
q-
00:20:46 [Ralph]
... what publishers might want for internal workflows vs. what is useful for AT
00:20:52 [wendyreid]
ack laudrain
00:21:03 [Ralph]
Luc: as a publisher we rely on structure
00:21:15 [Ralph]
... we know the structure of the document and can derive roles from the structure
00:21:21 [Jemma]
thanks for clarifying the meaning of "lack of implementation", Matt.
00:21:31 [Ralph]
... in the EPUB world we had the issue that epub-type was only structural
00:21:45 [Ralph]
... with dpub-aria we can implement more structure
00:21:56 [Ralph]
... we know there are still needs for AT
00:22:02 [wendyreid]
q?
00:22:06 [mck]
+1 to Matt's point that it is critical to understand what is useful to end users of assistive technologies.
00:22:06 [joanie]
https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1044
00:22:21 [laudrain]
q+
00:22:21 [Ralph]
Joanie: we weren't sure of your plans
00:22:25 [Ralph]
.. we do recognize there are issues
00:22:35 [Ralph]
... but we do see a use case for what Aaron has cited
00:22:42 [Ralph]
... we see decorative things appear over and over again
00:22:59 [Ralph]
... so we're toying a new ARIA feature to mark something as repeated content
00:23:00 [laudrain]
q-
00:23:15 [joanie]
https://github.com/w3c/dpub-aria/issues/16
00:23:21 [Ralph]
... the ARIA issue ^^ mentions some DPUB-related use cases and I've also filed them in your repo
00:23:33 [Ralph]
... for the next time you update your spec
00:23:56 [Ralph]
... if the content is elsewhere; e.g. a pull quote, a screen reader probably should not repeat it
00:24:12 [Ralph]
... when proofreading a document you do probably want to hear the pull quote again
00:24:19 [Ralph]
... but not in general
00:24:43 [Ralph]
Joanie: if you do decide to work on running headers, these would map to this hypothetical repeated content issue
00:24:51 [Ralph]
... we have a broader need to address this
00:25:02 [Ralph]
... and we should come back to this if you update dpub-aria
00:25:17 [Ralph]
JamesN: we've also been working on an extenstion to ARIA: aria-annotations
00:25:22 [Ralph]
... not yet at FPWD
00:25:33 [Ralph]
... still early, to solve a limited Google DOcs annotation use case
00:25:37 [jamesn]
https://w3c.github.io/annotation-aria/
00:25:45 [CharlesL]
q+
00:25:50 [Ralph]
... not ready to discuss here in detail
00:26:06 [Ralph]
bigbluehat: this picks up ARAI details to point to annotations in content
00:26:14 [wendyreid]
s/ARAI/ARIA
00:26:22 [Ralph]
... we've tried to match Web Annotation terminology; "bodies" are the things annotations point to
00:26:27 [Ralph]
... and call out the purpose of the annotation
00:26:38 [Ralph]
... so AT can distinguish between commentary and descriptive content
00:26:42 [jamesn]
https://w3c.github.io/annotation-aria/#roles
00:26:43 [Ralph]
... see section 3.2.1
00:26:54 [Ralph]
... many of these are informed by Google Docs use cases
00:27:23 [Ralph]
... in 4.1 there's a mapping from existing Web Annotation purpose/motivation terminology to these new role vocabulary additions
00:27:31 [wendyreid]
ack CharlesL
00:28:10 [Ralph]
CharlesL: for conformance certification for EPUBS, we're finding dpub-aria roles in books from some large publishers
00:28:15 [Ralph]
... the data is getting out there
00:28:28 [Ralph]
... we need now a richer experience for screen reader users
00:28:32 [romain]
q+
00:28:44 [Ralph]
... so we should talk with the AT developers to expose this
00:28:58 [wendyreid]
ack romain
00:29:30 [Ralph]
Romain: the issue about the context roles should be remembered: some rules conflict with the ARIA roles
00:29:49 [romain]
https://github.com/w3c/dpub-aria/issues/15
00:29:50 [Ralph]
... some markup is broken as a result
00:30:03 [romain]
https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/748
00:30:15 [Ralph]
... there's both a dpub and an ARIA issue (#15 and #748)
00:30:30 [Ralph]
JamesN: yeah; not easy to solve with what we have today
00:30:35 [Ralph]
Romain: maybe some extension hooks
00:30:48 [Ralph]
JamesN: yes; it would be very useful to have a way to handle this
00:30:57 [Ralph]
Joanie: we'll figure something out and get back to you
00:30:57 [bigbluehat]
q?
00:30:59 [bigbluehat]
q+
00:31:03 [Ralph]
... thanks for the reminder
00:31:04 [wendyreid]
ack bigbluehat
00:31:28 [Ralph]
bigbluehat: should we work on dpub-aria 2.0 in the remaining term of our charter?
00:31:39 [laudrain]
q+
00:31:57 [Ralph]
Wendy: we should probably look into this
00:32:09 [George]
q+
00:32:13 [Ralph]
... I'll bring it up in the next chairs' call when Tzviya is back
00:32:14 [mattg]
q+
00:32:26 [Ralph]
bigbluehat: let's keep communication lines open
00:32:43 [wendyreid]
ack laudrain
00:32:47 [Ralph]
Joanie: yes
00:32:47 [bkardell_]
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00:32:51 [mattg]
q-
00:32:57 [JuanCorona]
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00:33:09 [Ralph]
Luc: it's very important as we're setting our tooling for accessible ebooks
00:33:19 [Ralph]
... we need the specs to be stabilized
00:33:39 [rkuroda]
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00:33:44 [Ralph]
... we are in a new era of publishers producing all new titles in accessible EPUB3
00:33:52 [joanie]
q+ to make humble suggestion
00:34:01 [Ralph]
... this is also a goal of the European Accessibility Act
00:34:03 [wendyreid]
ack George
00:34:12 [Ralph]
George: having the additional semantics is really, really good
00:34:26 [Ralph]
... knowing that an H1 is a Chapter or a Glossary is terrific
00:34:48 [Ralph]
... other functionality such as aria-details pointing to an element and being able to navigate there would be really terrific also
00:35:07 [Ralph]
... the additional concept of an ability activate/move/link-to the element that aria-details points to
00:35:12 [wendyreid]
ack joanie
00:35:13 [Zakim]
joanie, you wanted to make humble suggestion
00:35:15 [mck_]
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00:35:25 [Ralph]
... my screen reader says "it has details" but you can't do anything with it
00:35:47 [Ralph]
Jonie: right now a dpub-aria 1.1 seems quite reasonable
00:35:57 [Ralph]
... if you don't have enough for a 2.0
00:36:03 [Ralph]
... right now you're blocked on us
00:36:10 [Ralph]
... you poined out #748
00:36:27 [Ralph]
... we'll try to prioritize the issues that block you from doing a 1.1
00:36:39 [Ralph]
Wendy: thank you for bringing this again to our attention
00:36:48 [Ralph]
s/poined/pointed
00:38:33 [Ralph]
topic: MathML
00:38:33 [bkardell_]
https://bkardell.com/blog/Beyond.html
00:38:41 [bkardell_]
https://mathml.igalia.com/faq/
00:38:50 [Ralph]
brian: I brought some links
00:40:29 [romain]
s/brian/bkardell_/
00:41:02 [Ralph]
... I wanted to talk to you as you've faced difficulty getting things into browsers
00:41:24 [Ralph]
... this isn't necessarily political; browsers have a business too
00:41:34 [Ralph]
... [summarized on slides]
00:41:55 [Ralph]
... igalia was able to implement css-grid because things were open
00:42:03 [Ralph]
... we're working on MathML
00:42:08 [romain]
for remote attendees, Brian is showing us this slide deck: http://slides.com/briankardell/deck-22
00:42:14 [Ralph]
... because we think this is the right thing to do
00:42:25 [Ralph]
... the Web was created in order to share research
00:42:38 [Yanni]
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00:42:46 [Ralph]
... MathML layout is hard
00:42:50 [Ralph]
... MathML layout is text
00:42:57 [Ralph]
... MathML layout deserves to be solved
00:43:14 [Ralph]
... only Chrome lacks MathML support
00:43:30 [Ralph]
... if we land support in Chromium, this pretty much solves the problem
00:43:41 [Ralph]
... igalia is actively working on this
00:43:57 [joanie]
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00:44:00 [Ralph]
... we have what we think is a very achievable goal of 2020
00:44:07 [mck_]
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00:44:13 [Ralph]
s/ of / of August /
00:44:58 [Ralph]
... we're trying to fund this via a group of people with a common interest
00:45:20 [Ralph]
... we have a grant from NISO for this year and from APS physics
00:45:39 [Ralph]
... we're finalizing some stuff with Pearson
00:45:53 [Ralph]
... see our FAQ
00:46:04 [CharlesL]
q+
00:46:13 [Ralph]
... you're welcome to contribute code
00:46:26 [Ralph]
... and download our linux distro and file bugs
00:46:51 [Ralph]
... we're also working on normalizing the MathML spec
00:47:08 [Ralph]
... we have just about completing the normalization of the DOM in all three browser engines
00:47:57 [dauwhe]
q+
00:48:01 [Ralph]
... we're working on completing the required funding for 2019
00:48:25 [wendyreid]
ack CharlesL
00:48:27 [Ralph]
https://mathml.igalia.com/faq/
00:48:46 [Ralph]
CharlesL: what is the relationship to the new Microsoft browser?
00:48:53 [Ralph]
BrianK: they'd get it for free
00:48:56 [laurent]
q+
00:49:01 [Ralph]
... as would all the other chromium-based browsers
00:49:04 [wendyreid]
ack dauwhe
00:49:05 [Ralph]
... which is a lot of them
00:49:14 [Ralph]
... as well as embedded systems
00:49:30 [Ralph]
dauwhe: you are understated, Brian
00:49:36 [Ralph]
... this is a revolution in how we could work
00:49:47 [Ralph]
... it does place a lot of demands on us
00:49:56 [Ralph]
... historically we've been beggars
00:50:14 [Ralph]
... this presents the possibility of having a lot more control over our own fate, if we're willing to make business investements
00:50:22 [CharlesL]
q+
00:50:38 [Ralph]
... there's a way to get implementations into browsers that doesn't require convincing the browser developers that it will make money for them
00:50:51 [Ralph]
Brian: it's a compelling idea to think about how to do this together
00:50:55 [Ralph]
... we have common needs
00:51:02 [Ralph]
... this is W3C; we work together as a Commons
00:51:17 [Ralph]
... taking some ownership of this Commons and working together in this way could be really positive
00:51:26 [Ralph]
dauwhe: there's more than just writing a spec
00:51:29 [laudrain]
q+
00:51:33 [wendyreid]
ack laurent
00:51:39 [Ralph]
... writing the spec is just part of the journey
00:51:45 [Ralph]
Laurent: this is very exciting for us
00:51:56 [Ralph]
... EDRLab is an open-source development organization
00:52:09 [Ralph]
... we will happily use a native implementation
00:52:10 [mck__]
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00:52:24 [Ralph]
... do you have any recommendations for the publishing industry on presentation MathML vs content MathML?
00:52:30 [Ralph]
Brian: we do have a recommendation on that
00:53:02 [Ralph]
... MathML is an example of a specification that has a lot of theory that didn't get a lot of implementation
00:53:20 [Ralph]
... it defines 580 elements
00:53:21 [kaleeg]
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00:53:34 [Ralph]
... no browser ever implemented anything close to that number
00:53:55 [Ralph]
... we've done research on what are the commonly-implemented elements
00:54:02 [Ralph]
... we've found about 20 elements
00:54:08 [Ralph]
... all presentation MathML
00:54:28 [Ralph]
... we have 1800 WPT tests
00:54:43 [Ralph]
... chromium is passing about 60-70%
00:54:53 [dauwhe]
q?
00:54:58 [Ralph]
... we're filing bugs and seeing advancement
00:55:09 [wendyreid]
ack CharlesL
00:55:17 [dauwhe]
q+
00:55:26 [Ralph]
... we expect to see 400-500 new passes in webkit soon too
00:55:31 [romain]
MathML Core current implementation report: https://mathml-refresh.github.io/mathml-core/implementation-report.html
00:55:50 [Ralph]
CharlesL: MathML in chromium is crucial to textbooks
00:56:13 [Ralph]
... how is the MathML Refresh CG going to affect your development?
00:56:16 [romain]
s/chromium is passing/WebKit is passing/
00:56:24 [Ralph]
... as they try to sreamline MathML
00:56:33 [Ralph]
BrianK: we're implementing MathML core
00:56:47 [Ralph]
... the streamlined MathML
00:56:59 [Ralph]
... we're working with the CG
00:57:11 [dauwhe]
q-
00:57:45 [Ralph]
... being more rigorous in the spec
00:58:08 [Ralph]
... there's no IDL for MathML, if you can believe it!
00:58:13 [Ralph]
... we're modernizing this
00:59:32 [Ralph]
... I think it's compelling to have a modern DOM that can fit into the modern world
01:00:08 [bobbytung]
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01:00:08 [Ralph]
... [with the streamlined spec] you can use shadow DOM
01:00:26 [wendyreid]
ack laudrain
01:00:53 [bigbluehat]
q+
01:00:54 [Ralph]
Luc: the Publishing Business Group can talk about this project
01:01:12 [Ralph]
... we've funded the ePubCheck work
01:01:22 [Ralph]
... perhaps we can look into supporting this
01:01:30 [dauwhe]
q+
01:01:45 [laurent]
q+
01:02:00 [wendyreid]
ack bigbluehat
01:02:07 [Ralph]
bigbluehat: thanks for coming
01:02:18 [Ralph]
... John Wiley and Sons ships a lot of math
01:02:37 [Ralph]
Brian: there's been a lot of good work in MathJax
01:02:57 [Ralph]
... we'd like to take some of the further work and learn from MathJax
01:03:01 [wendyreid]
ack dauwhe
01:03:02 [Ralph]
... e.g. interactive math
01:03:23 [Ralph]
dauwhe: can we sponsor individual elements? :)
01:03:23 [wendyreid]
ack laurent
01:03:26 [Ralph]
<laughter>
01:03:53 [Ralph]
Laurent: when you add the code to chromium, how can you be sure Chrome will pick it up?
01:05:04 [Ralph]
BrianK: I don't think the intent of the fork was to kill MathML
01:06:12 [Ralph]
... they wanted to change the architecture to improve performance and dropping the initial implementation of MathML was a side-effect
01:07:44 [dauwhe]
q?
01:08:25 [CharlesL]
q+
01:09:13 [wendyreid]
ack CharlesL
01:09:37 [Ralph]
CharlesL: I've heard some publishers say they can't put a lot of math in an EPUB because MathJax takes too long to render it
01:09:44 [Ralph]
Brian: yes, and this will really help with that proble
01:09:49 [Ralph]
s/ble/blem
01:10:06 [Ralph]
Wendy: are these publishers inlcuding MathJax or relying on the reading system?
01:10:16 [Ralph]
CharlesL: relying on the RS
01:10:38 [romain]
q+
01:10:39 [Ralph]
Brian: [shows a demo of rapid DOM updates]
01:10:49 [Ralph]
... this demo is slowed down so you can see it!
01:11:10 [Ralph]
... [demos reflowing math, responsive adjustments to the size]
01:11:40 [Ralph]
... here's a Custom Element that renders LaTeX
01:12:01 [Ralph]
Wendy: RS don't have lots of memory
01:12:12 [Ralph]
... how well will this work in those?
01:12:24 [Ralph]
... have you tested those scenarios?
01:12:32 [laudrain]
q+
01:12:34 [Ralph]
Brian: it should work as well as anything else in CSS that does text layout
01:12:36 [wendyreid]
ack romain
01:13:21 [Ralph]
Romain: I'm interested in your collaboration with ARIA
01:13:26 [mck]
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01:13:36 [wendyreid]
ack laudrain
01:13:50 [Ralph]
Brian: yes; we think there's good work there that we hope to evolve toward
01:14:17 [Ralph]
Luc: any idea what Amazon might do?
01:14:35 [duga]
q+
01:14:42 [Ralph]
Brian: I spoke with the Amazon participants in CSS WG in June, don't have answers yet
01:15:18 [Ralph]
dauwhe: it's possible that having Chrome support in the pipeline will help
01:15:43 [wendyreid]
ack duga
01:16:14 [bigbluehat]
q+
01:16:29 [Ralph]
Brady: caution that it will still take years for support to appear in RS once it's in chromium
01:17:19 [Ralph]
dauwhe: this will motivate some apps to add MathML support too
01:17:33 [wendyreid]
ack bigbluehat
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01:18:36 [Ralph]
bigbluehat: we'll have to continue to provide fallbaks
01:18:44 [laudrain]
q+
01:19:06 [Ralph]
Brian: it does simplify things
01:19:36 [wendyreid]
ack laudrain
01:19:40 [Ralph]
... the need for a polyfill will go down
01:21:13 [Ralph]
Wendy: thanks for coming and telling us about this!
01:21:26 [Yanni]
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01:21:39 [Ralph]
<break duration=19mins />
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02:06:31 [wendyreid]
https://w3c.github.io/test-results/annotation-protocol/all.html#test-file-0
02:06:38 [dauwhe_]
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02:06:46 [wendyreid]
https://w3c.github.io/test-results/annotation-model/all.html
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02:08:50 [wendyreid]
scribe+ romain
02:08:50 [romain]
scribenick: romain
02:08:51 [romain]
topic: implementation and testing
02:08:52 [romain]
wendyreid: what do we need to get to CR
02:08:53 [romain]
… we need to come up with a test plan and implementation guide
02:08:56 [romain]
… timCole shared the Web Annotations testing and implementation docs
02:08:59 [romain]
… we can probably do something very similar
02:09:26 [wendyreid]
https://w3c.github.io/test-results/annotation-protocol/all.html#test-file-0
02:09:31 [wendyreid]
https://w3c.github.io/test-results/annotation-model/all.html
02:09:33 [Ariel]
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02:09:43 [romain]
… the tests are pretty concise
02:09:43 [ivan]
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02:10:19 [romain]
… I would like our test suite to be as concise and comprehensive as possible
02:10:40 [romain]
… I've created a Google doc to compile the tests before we turn them into WPT material
02:10:50 [wendyreid]
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1nprN-8z2mRcmxkdWCN5Cz6-iNGl2BKCWQMxRZE2LbN4/edit?usp=sharing
02:11:08 [romain]
… I've already put high level tests for Pub Manifest
02:11:21 [romain]
… basically we should take all the MUST/SHOULD statements and turn them into tests
02:11:30 [bobbytung]
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02:11:31 [romain]
… the other part is to create excit criteria for the specs
02:11:37 [gpellegrino]
q+
02:11:41 [romain]
… so that we set the expectations
02:12:15 [romain]
… is there any advice from the other groups bigbluehat ?
02:12:20 [CharlesL]
q+
02:12:39 [romain]
bigbluehat: one of the things we did was to use the actual sentences out of the spec and pull out the MUST do / SHOULD do
02:13:11 [romain]
… the pass criteria is nice but hard to connect it to the spec
02:13:23 [romain]
… the pass criteria can be helpful to understand the test
02:13:36 [romain]
… but being able to find an exact quote from the spec is very useful
02:13:53 [romain]
… it also makes the tests very pretty and readable
02:14:02 [romain]
… a report is generated
02:14:12 [romain]
… (thanks to Greg Kellogs)
02:15:00 [romain]
wendyreid: currently I wrote a first couple tests, for the basic things (if a manifest is present, can you detect it? etc.)
02:15:12 [mattg]
q+
02:15:24 [romain]
bigbluehat: most of the manifest checks are probably JSON/JSON-LD based
02:15:25 [wendyreid]
ack gpellegrino
02:15:39 [romain]
gpellegrino: are the tests for the UA or the manifest itself?
02:15:42 [bigbluehat]
q+
02:15:47 [romain]
wendyreid: that would depend on the implementer?
02:15:56 [romain]
… we're testing the manifest format
02:16:09 [romain]
bigbluehat: we make no demand on UA, so there is nothing to test for them
02:16:27 [romain]
gpellegrino: testing the manifest is fine
02:16:47 [romain]
bigbluehat: a lot of the current tests look like what was in Web Pub, not in Web Manifest
02:16:53 [JuanCorona]
q+
02:17:15 [romain]
… the only thing we can test for Web Manifest is a manifest, the JSON document and the requirements around it
02:17:28 [romain]
… how you get that, how you feed it to the tests is a different issue
02:17:36 [romain]
… out of scope
02:17:49 [romain]
… package tests could exist which can leverage these tests
02:17:49 [wendyreid]
ack CharlesL
02:18:12 [romain]
CharlesL: if we take bigbluehat suggestion, things like "Process the manifest" are very vague
02:18:19 [George]
q+
02:18:20 [kaleeg]
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02:18:22 [romain]
… what does it mean? we need to clarify that
02:18:32 [romain]
wendyreid: right, this is just a start
02:18:36 [laurent]
q?
02:18:45 [romain]
… it's currently only high level, then we need to break it out
02:18:54 [wendyreid]
ack mattg
02:18:58 [romain]
s/break it out/break it down/
02:19:23 [romain]
mattg: what we have is a vocabulary in the manifest, and we're gonna have to show that we have publishers or others who're gonna implement it
02:19:37 [romain]
… and then Audiobooks is gonna be the actual implementation of the manifest
02:19:45 [romain]
… it's probably where we're gonna have more UA testing
02:20:12 [romain]
… we're gonna have to show commitments of implementation
02:20:26 [wendyreid]
ack Ralph
02:20:27 [romain]
… getting all the metadata approved is gonna take some work
02:20:31 [bigbluehat]
q-
02:20:41 [JuanCorona]
q-
02:20:51 [romain]
Ralph: part of the goal of this testing needs a certain mindset
02:20:57 [romain]
… usually we're testing an implementation
02:21:13 [romain]
… here we're also testing that the spec is interpreted in the same way by the implementers
02:21:34 [romain]
… the implementers need to say why the test fail, so that we can clarify the spec
02:21:47 [laurent]
q?
02:21:52 [romain]
… we're not just testing implementations, we're testing whether the spec is clear enough
02:21:53 [wendyreid]
ack George
02:22:04 [romain]
George: do we produce tests that are expecting to fail?
02:22:08 [bobbytung]
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02:22:17 [romain]
wendyreid: good question, which came up yesterday
02:22:27 [romain]
… when we were discussing validation errors
02:22:45 [romain]
… should the spec be clearer about what we consider a failure vs. a recoverable error, etc
02:22:56 [romain]
… there's some work we can do to clarify that
02:23:15 [romain]
… tests can tackle some of these validation problems
02:23:16 [mattg]
q+
02:23:20 [CharlesL]
q+
02:23:22 [wendyreid]
ack mattg
02:23:46 [romain]
mattg: you can do tests that verify that a warning is properly issued, or an error raised
02:23:59 [romain]
… you're testing a requirement of the specification
02:24:00 [wendyreid]
ack CharlesL
02:24:22 [romain]
CharlesL: you're expecting the algo to fail, in which case the test passes
02:24:29 [Ralph]
[may be related to -> https://github.com/w3c/pub-manifest/issues/62 #62 ]
02:24:39 [bigbluehat]
q+
02:24:57 [wendyreid]
ack bigbluehat
02:25:01 [laurent]
q+
02:25:14 [romain]
bigbluehat: the processing steps are really the only thing that go beyond pure json validation
02:25:36 [romain]
… the MUST in the spec that I'm finding are mostly "must have a context" and "must have a type"
02:25:44 [romain]
… and then datatype requirements
02:26:02 [romain]
… the processing section is something that is gonna be interesting all the way around
02:26:27 [romain]
… as it results in an internal object (or API?) and we don't really have a way to test those things
02:26:46 [romain]
… the way WPT works is that they have hooks in the browser so they can test that
02:26:55 [romain]
… I'm not sure what we can do in that case
02:27:23 [wendyreid]
ack laurent
02:27:39 [romain]
laurent: I agree that there are two sections in the tests, one about the structure and one about the processing
02:27:50 [romain]
… I propose to separate the testing document in two parts
02:28:37 [romain]
wendyreid: the Pub Manifest is really about structure, the structural tests are around the manifest
02:28:59 [romain]
… we could move the processing tests to the Audiobooks, as they will have to implement the processing part
02:29:07 [romain]
… Ralph, is it an OK approach?
02:29:23 [JuanCorona]
q+
02:29:28 [romain]
Ralph: yes, that's where they're gonna be implemented
02:29:30 [wendyreid]
ack JuanCorona
02:29:43 [romain]
JuanCorona: are we seeking implementations for the Pub Manifest without any profiles?
02:30:03 [romain]
wendyreid: no clear promises about Pub Manifest outside of Audiobooks
02:30:32 [romain]
… but we can expect something that is not an Audiobook to verify that it can apply to something else
02:30:44 [romain]
Ralph: ???
02:30:58 [duga]
q+
02:31:23 [romain]
bigbluehat: by testing an Audiobook implementation can we use these tests to validate the Manifest spec?
02:31:45 [romain]
Ralph: there are pieces of the Manifest spec that may not be covered by the Audiobook profile
02:32:03 [romain]
wendyreid: for instance, one of the requirement of Audiobooks is that the reading order only contains audio files
02:32:09 [bigbluehat]
q+ to ask about testing errors/warnings required in processing; see note https://w3c.github.io/pub-manifest/#h-note-19
02:32:14 [romain]
… however Manifest doesn't require that
02:32:45 [romain]
… when we're testing the processing part for Audiobooks, does it suffice or do we need to create a publication with non-audio files too?
02:32:59 [wendyreid]
ack duga
02:33:01 [romain]
Ralph: I expect the Audiobook implementations to be sufficient
02:33:27 [romain]
duga: what is an implementation of the Pub Manifest? it's not a thing, we're always supposed to create profiles
02:33:45 [romain]
… there cannot be implementations of it outside of a profile context
02:33:57 [dsinger]
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02:33:59 [wendyreid]
ack bigbluehat
02:33:59 [Zakim]
bigbluehat, you wanted to ask about testing errors/warnings required in processing; see note https://w3c.github.io/pub-manifest/#h-note-19
02:34:02 [romain]
bigbluehat: right, it's just an abstract interface
02:34:34 [romain]
… the processing step currently in Pub Manifest talks about issuing warnings and errors, and says that how UA do it is UA-dependent
02:34:39 [romain]
… how do we test that?
02:34:58 [romain]
… we would need some needs of systems recording they do that
02:35:39 [romain]
… WPT would have solutions for JS/browser implementations, but we can't test console loggers
02:35:42 [jeff]
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02:35:43 [laurent]
q?
02:35:45 [laurent]
q+
02:35:49 [wendyreid]
ack laurent
02:35:49 [jeff]
present+ jeff
02:36:10 [romain]
laurent: for example, an Audiobook must contain only audio files. if it doesn't, what should the UA do?
02:36:14 [bigbluehat]
q+
02:36:16 [romain]
… I don't think we spec'ed that
02:36:32 [romain]
wendyreid: right, we may need to clarify that
02:37:22 [romain]
… for Audiobooks 1.0 we decided to accept only audio, but if the market wants a way to render complementary content, we can add that
02:37:44 [CharlesL]
q+
02:37:50 [romain]
laurent: I think the UA should not reject such books, we're Web oriented and we should be as permissive as possible
02:38:00 [romain]
Ralph: yes, it should be captured as an issue
02:38:01 [wendyreid]
ack bigbluehat
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02:38:32 [romain]
bigbluehat: this question about which spec we test, whether or not tests are inherited, needs to be pinned down
02:38:51 [romain]
… does the processing section need to be moved to the Audiobook?
02:39:26 [romain]
… we don't have a generic mediatype that declares support for Pub Manifest
02:39:38 [romain]
… it's a big question
02:40:04 [romain]
wendyreid: when we decided on the profil model, the idea wasn't to declare media types for everything but to add specific requirements
02:40:17 [romain]
… a valid Audiobook needs a valid manifest, the other way isn't true
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02:40:33 [romain]
bigbluehat: ???
02:40:56 [wendyreid]
ack CharlesL
02:41:43 [romain]
CharlesL: for the reading order we may want to consider use cases where each chapter has images associated to audio
02:41:52 [George]
q+
02:41:53 [bigbluehat]
s/???/then both specs should probably go to rec, and no profile should include any additional processing steps
02:41:58 [romain]
Ralph: sounds close to sync media
02:42:32 [romain]
wendyreid: the other challenge with that is that we have a cover image, so we'd need to come up with rel values for declaring that the image is related to chapter n…
02:42:42 [romain]
… the discussion is valuable, but it's potentially version 2
02:42:48 [wendyreid]
ack George
02:43:18 [romain]
George: this is related to ToC which can present a series of headings, images
02:43:36 [mattg]
q+
02:43:37 [romain]
… an audio reader which supports the presentation of images is gonna ??? the table of content
02:44:17 [romain]
wendyreid: in Audiobooks we don't strongly defined expectations for UA
02:44:38 [romain]
… implementors might use the manifest or not, it's for them to decide
02:44:42 [wendyreid]
ack mattg
02:45:11 [bigbluehat]
q+
02:45:17 [romain]
George: don't we have to specify what triggers the switch between the chapter images when it starts to play?
02:45:27 [romain]
mattg: stepping back a little.
02:45:56 [romain]
… with the Pub Manifest processing model is inherited and extended
02:46:14 [romain]
… the actual implemention is the Audiobook and it's the one we need to use
02:46:35 [romain]
… in that way we're able to test what was defined in the Pub Manifest specification
02:46:46 [wendyreid]
ack bigbluehat
02:46:46 [romain]
… we don't want every profile spec to define its own processing model
02:46:52 [romain]
bigbluehat: yes, completely agree
02:46:53 [Avneesh]
+1 Matt
02:47:11 [romain]
… to be safe, whatever we define in the profiles need to fit in the upstream processing steps
02:47:24 [romain]
… we need to define things that do not require changes to the Manifes processing model
02:47:46 [romain]
… and make sure that the extensibility model accomodates profiles to be added to version 2 of the manifest
02:48:32 [romain]
… if we add additional terms, it still needs to be a Pub Manifest, and UA requirements come on top of them
02:48:40 [romain]
… so we can avoid media types ad nauseum
02:48:53 [inamori_]
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02:49:18 [romain]
… I think it's testable, if we test the JSON validation thing with schema, test the processing part of the manifest, and test audiobook specific things as UA tests
02:49:36 [romain]
mattg: makes sense
02:50:07 [romain]
… we may need to say more about the inheritence/exstensibility
02:50:46 [romain]
wendyreid: the testing may need to be structured so that the processing tests are about the Manifest processing model
02:51:06 [romain]
… and let UA decide what the behavior is when producing a warning or error
02:51:29 [romain]
… and when testing Audiobooks, all the processing tests apply, and then you have expectations on UA behavior
02:52:05 [George]
q+
02:52:10 [wendyreid]
ack George
02:52:31 [romain]
George: I don't understand how the toc relates to the play order
02:52:51 [romain]
… I understand how UA can take the toc, go to an mp3 file and start playing it
02:53:12 [romain]
… but how an app can walk from one mp3 file to the next, and how would the toc know that you just moved from ch2 to ch3?
02:53:32 [romain]
… what data is in the files that is gonna allow a UA to know that?
02:53:35 [jeff_]
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02:53:42 [romain]
wendyreid: the time stamps depend on the structure of the file
02:53:57 [romain]
… if each chapter has its own audio file we know that
02:53:58 [Rachel]
q+ to ask if this comes down to a best practice?
02:54:13 [romain]
… but Audiobook also allow media fragments
02:54:26 [romain]
… that really comes down to the UA to know how to map this information
02:54:30 [duga]
q+
02:54:38 [dauwhe]
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02:54:47 [romain]
… that's a UA thing, we cannot specify how to do it, just that they have to
02:54:51 [wendyreid]
ack Rachel
02:54:51 [Zakim]
Rachel, you wanted to ask if this comes down to a best practice?
02:55:07 [romain]
Rachel: if this comes down to a best practice?
02:55:39 [romain]
wendyreid: we have a section in the UCR devoted to what the users know about the current location in the publication
02:55:46 [duga]
q-
02:55:50 [romain]
… it's in the UCR, not a best practice
02:55:51 [marisa]
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02:55:55 [bigbluehat]
q+
02:56:00 [wendyreid]
ack bigbluehat
02:56:20 [romain]
bigbluehat: the UCR are hopes or aspirations, I don't think they can be tested on the machinery
02:56:49 [mattg]
q+
02:56:50 [romain]
… if we need to demand things on UA, we need tests
02:57:00 [dauwhe_]
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02:57:43 [wendyreid]
ack mattg
02:57:45 [romain]
… we've avoided UA declarations in Pub Manifest, but the profiles can specify that
02:58:03 [romain]
mattg: I'm wondering who's gonna take responsbility for this? there's lot of issues
02:58:13 [romain]
… how are we gonna break up this work?
02:58:30 [romain]
… I have a lot of logistics questions
02:58:42 [bigbluehat]
q+
02:58:51 [wendyreid]
ack bigbluehat
02:58:56 [romain]
wendyreid: should we need a TF? this is our work for the next 8 months, so I think we're all responsible
02:59:23 [romain]
bigbluehat: the only thing I regret with web annotations is to not having started the testing effor from day 0
02:59:50 [romain]
… it is really a thing the group should be doing
03:00:10 [romain]
… it will potentially reshape what we write in the specs, and how we write it
03:00:25 [romain]
wendyreid: yes, it needs to be done before we lock down the documents
03:00:34 [laurent]
present+
03:00:40 [romain]
… bigbluehat, how did you do it with the Web Annotation group?
03:01:03 [romain]
bigbluehat: in our case, one of the person writing the tests was also an editor, which was very helpful
03:01:41 [romain]
… a potential way forward is for anyone interested in writing tests to extract the MUST and the SHOULD, writing pseudo code to describe what the test is expected to do
03:02:20 [romain]
… it's gonna help a lot in identifying what is testable
03:02:35 [romain]
… once you write tests, the vision clears
03:03:36 [romain]
wendyreid: we should al lbe resonsible, but we need people to write tests, scour documents, and who're not Matt :-)
03:03:42 [romain]
… is anyone interested?
03:03:47 [duga]
q+
03:04:10 [romain]
bigbluehat: I'm happy to help whoever wants to write JS and JSON schema to operationalize the tests
03:04:30 [romain]
… we did do a lot of effort to get in running in WPT
03:04:35 [mattg]
q+
03:04:58 [romain]
… I would start with that, UA tests is probably someone else's job
03:05:00 [wendyreid]
ack duga
03:05:09 [romain]
duga: I'm still confused what these tests look like
03:05:15 [mattg]
q-
03:05:15 [romain]
… how do you check a data format?
03:05:19 [bigbluehat]
q+
03:05:27 [wendyreid]
ack bigbluehat
03:05:32 [romain]
… if I had to sit down and write tests, I wouldn't know how to start
03:05:43 [romain]
bigbluehat: yes we have some examples in Web Annotations
03:05:44 [bigbluehat]
https://github.com/w3c/web-annotation-tests/
03:06:05 [romain]
… most of these tests a JSON schemas
03:06:36 [jeff__]
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03:06:44 [romain]
… JSON schema was not flexible enough for some of our requirements, so we created a bunch of schemas which mapped to our MUST and run them in sequence
03:06:55 [wendyreid]
https://github.com/w3c/web-annotation-tests/blob/master/annotations/3.1-annotationContextValidated.json
03:07:10 [romain]
… we're testing the same concepts in multiple ways, with micro schemas
03:07:28 [romain]
… the test runner code is intersting as well
03:07:55 [romain]
… in tools and samples, there are "correct" and "incorrect" annotations which we used to test tests
03:08:16 [romain]
… then we made an npm package
03:08:49 [romain]
wendyreid: it looks like we could pretty easily create a spreadsheet of the requirements and then turn that into little schemas
03:08:53 [mattg]
q+
03:08:58 [laurent]
q+
03:09:08 [romain]
… so we can get everyone to participate, coders or not
03:09:26 [wendyreid]
ack mattg
03:09:29 [romain]
bigbluehat: we also used section numbers from the spec, which is easier to reference
03:09:42 [romain]
mattg: I like your idea of getting everyone involved
03:10:10 [romain]
… we may want to chunk the spec in groups to distribute the assigments, like we did for the EPUB spec review
03:10:10 [bigbluehat]
q+
03:10:10 [wendyreid]
ack laurent
03:10:34 [romain]
laurent: I still wonder why you've split unit schemas what we have as a global schema
03:10:56 [romain]
… e.g. the different shapes that contributors can take are already part of the schema
03:11:27 [romain]
… what's the point of having micro schemas when we can have a larger super schema that could be also be used by implementors
03:12:04 [romain]
bigbluehat: at the time we couldn't find a validator that said what part of the schema worked or not, or failed or not. that's why we broke it in smaller per-feature schemas
03:12:35 [romain]
… we couldn't get the tools to tell us the precise info without breaking up the schema
03:13:02 [romain]
laurent: when I write a schema I get a report
03:13:14 [romain]
bigbluehat: it was 3 years ago, tooling may have improved
03:13:41 [wendyreid]
ack bigbluehat
03:13:46 [romain]
wendyreid: you want the tests to be granular; you can have one super schema as long as the tests are granular
03:13:57 [romain]
bigbluehat: for implementation reporting, we need the info feature by feature
03:14:02 [bigbluehat]
this is the code from Apache Annotator that does validation https://github.com/apache/incubator-annotator/blob/master/test/data-model.js
03:14:20 [romain]
… the implementation is 94 lines of code
03:14:43 [romain]
… it pulls in Web Annotations JSON schemas and run it against the annotation
03:14:57 [romain]
… this is the kind of thing I can setup for the Pub Manifest files
03:15:14 [romain]
… that doesn't touch the processing sections, but can be used for the schemas
03:15:33 [romain]
… we had Web Annotations implementors if they were creators or consumers of them
03:16:19 [romain]
… it helped to test round tripping
03:16:40 [romain]
… for Pub Manifest, someone else need to look at how to test the internal representation
03:17:04 [laurent]
q+
03:17:32 [wendyreid]
ack laurent
03:17:48 [romain]
laurent: to test content we need some sort of schema
03:18:02 [romain]
… to test UAs, we need a set of samples, with various shapes or features
03:18:32 [romain]
… it's totally separate; we should start creating samples soon
03:18:32 [romain]
… the actual content isn't important
03:18:59 [romain]
wendyreid: we have a good collection of samples with the various shapes of Audiobooks, we can use whatever public domain content
03:19:25 [romain]
laurent: right, the size of the chapter is not relevant, we can use short chapters
03:19:51 [romain]
wendyreid: to tackle all the testing, it sounds we need a little bit of research to see if we need to chunk the schema like Web Annotations did
03:20:37 [romain]
… and then we need people to take the MUST/SHOULD out, I like the idea of splitting the work in spec chunks
03:20:47 [mattg]
q+
03:20:51 [wendyreid]
ack mattg
03:20:52 [romain]
… then another group has to work on how to test UA behavior
03:21:10 [romain]
mattg: where does CR fit into this? do we need the tests before going to CR?
03:21:27 [dauwhe_]
q+
03:21:35 [dauwhe_]
q-
03:21:38 [romain]
… we may discover issues with the spec, are we concerned about finding significant issues after CR?
03:22:16 [romain]
dauwhe_: you write tests for CRs, then change the CR. the quality of the spec is the most important thing, that's why CR is for
03:22:41 [romain]
Ralph: it's considered a good thing if implementations get you to update the spec
03:22:49 [romain]
… depending on the kind of changes to the spec
03:23:03 [romain]
… editorial changes are always easy to do
03:23:17 [romain]
… substantial changes are supposed to require approval
03:23:26 [romain]
… but CR is definitely for improving the spec
03:24:28 [romain]
wendyreid: after lunch, we're gonna talk about the Pub CG, then talk about a plan to get started with these tests
03:24:52 [romain]
… we'll reconvene at 1:30
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04:35:47 [garth]
present+ Garth
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04:37:37 [marisa]
scribe+
04:37:45 [marisa]
topic: publishing cg
04:38:06 [marisa]
wendyreid: the pub cg has been formed, please join it
04:38:25 [JuanCorona]
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04:39:01 [marisa]
... as mentioned yesterday, we want to spend more time on incubation. this is the point of the pub cg, and they want to hear your ideas
04:39:02 [jroque]
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04:39:36 [marisa]
... things may go to pub cg and then move on to other WGs (not necessarily pwg)
04:39:45 [rkuroda]
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04:39:46 [marisa]
s/may go to/start in
04:39:59 [marisa]
... let's brainstorm topics for pub cg
04:40:06 [JuanCorona]
q+
04:40:10 [wendyreid]
ack JuanCorona
04:40:57 [marisa]
JuanCorona: lower-level features that browsers could support (e.g. bigbluehat talked about iframe use cases; dauwhe talked about the challenges of large doms)
04:41:47 [dauwhe__]
q+
04:42:23 [wendyreid]
ack dauwhe__
04:43:48 [marisa]
dauwhe__: iframes are interesting, lots of discussion across w3c; feels like the role of this group might be to describe the problems we have when using iframes for the type of content we're trying to create as something to bring to whatwg or wicg or whomever is getting closer to the bare metal. we have possibly unique use cases, so conveying them to the people who could advice re feasibility would be a valuable task for this group
04:44:05 [garth]
q?
04:44:08 [marisa]
wendyreid: the ideas submitted to pubcg could also be problems that you're having
04:44:37 [dauwhe__]
q+
04:44:41 [marisa]
... e.g. how do publications and renderers do a better job with footnotes and endnotes
04:44:48 [bobbytung]
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04:44:59 [marisa]
... rather than leave it entirely up to footnotes
04:45:08 [marisa]
s/to footnotes/to UAs
04:45:14 [wendyreid]
ack dauwhe__
04:45:51 [marisa]
dauwhe__: you can make anything happen on the web today - we have this view that we should be able to use some declarative markup that implies a processing model
04:46:30 [marisa]
... we want to come closer to the web, not further away. no complex rendering pathways.
04:46:47 [marisa]
... we haven't identified the causes of the problems we see with the current solution
04:46:56 [duga]
q+
04:47:04 [wendyreid]
ack duga
04:47:08 [marisa]
... fragmentation of footnote experience in UAs, for example, feels like a prob with the UAs
04:47:17 [marisa]
duga: you're wrong
04:47:24 [marisa]
s/you're wrong/there were issues
04:47:51 [marisa]
... UAs use wacky logic to find out if something is a footnote
04:48:50 [garth]
q?
04:49:24 [garth]
q+
04:49:28 [marisa]
... due to loss of epub:type
04:49:52 [wendyreid]
ack garth
04:50:00 [ivan]
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04:50:13 [marisa]
garth: (yelling) i think we ought to look at something like footnotes
04:50:17 [marisa]
s/(yelling)//
04:50:47 [marisa]
... what goes to pub cg vs epub cg - footnotes might go to epub cg
04:51:16 [romain]
q+
04:51:18 [JuanCorona]
q+
04:51:20 [wendyreid]
ack romain
04:51:30 [marisa]
romain: experiment with creating an API for the manifest
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04:52:00 [wendyreid]
ack JuanCorona
04:52:21 [marisa]
... define an API via web idl and then polyfill it
04:52:27 [gpellegrino]
q+
04:52:39 [marisa]
JuanCorona: what ideas are they working on in pub cg already?
04:52:42 [dauwhe__]
q+
04:54:26 [JuanCorona]
https://github.com/w3c/publishingcg/
04:55:20 [marisa]
wendyreid: iframes is one thing they're looking at
04:55:25 [marisa]
... accessibility
04:55:26 [dauwhe__]
q?
04:56:36 [wendyreid]
ack gpellegrino
04:56:36 [marisa]
JuanCorona: addressability
04:56:45 [marisa]
gpellegrino: multicol layout
04:56:59 [marisa]
... pagination
04:57:14 [wendyreid]
ack dauwhe__
04:58:16 [marisa]
dauwhe__: many ideas are related to behaviors - we have expectations - what about custom elements with the desired behavior
04:58:18 [marisa]
q+
04:59:08 [marisa]
q/
04:59:18 [marisa]
s/q////
04:59:21 [marisa]
q+
04:59:32 [marisa]
q?
05:00:09 [marisa]
marisa: current state of custom elements and accessibility?
05:00:11 [wendyreid]
ack mar
05:00:23 [wendyreid]
marisa: Who knows about the current state of custom elements and accessibility?
05:00:41 [marisa]
... in practice
05:00:46 [wendyreid]
... I understand the practice, shadow DOMs and accessibility trees
05:02:04 [marisa]
wendyreid: we have an opportunity to take advantage of our position in the web world
05:02:44 [laurent]
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05:05:12 [marisa]
topic: internationalization
05:05:23 [marisa]
[we are joined by people from internationalization]
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05:08:30 [DavidClarke]
present+
05:08:47 [dauwhe__]
zakim, who is here?
05:08:49 [Zakim]
Present: MasakazuKitahara, Jemma, laudrain, Ralph, JunGamo, CharlesL, Rachel, gpellegrino, toshiakikoike, bigbluehat, ZoeBijl, romain, Avneesh, GeorgeK, wendyreid, George, MattG,
05:08:49 [Zakim]
... Yanni, Matt-King, duga, JuanCorona, achraf, ReinaldoFerraz, jeff, laurent, Garth, DavidClarke
05:08:49 [Zakim]
On IRC I see Yanni, duerst_, DavidClarke, atsushi_, r12a-again, addison_, Bert, Makoto_, laurent, inamori_, ivan, rkuroda, jroque, JuanCorona, toshiakikoike, gpellegrino, JunGamo,
05:08:53 [Zakim]
... garth, duga, marisa, romain, MasakazuKitahara, dauwhe__, Ariel, bkardell_, ZoeBijl, wendyreid, jamesn, Ralph, achraf, Rachel, skk, RRSAgent, Zakim, plinss_, sangwhan, Travis,
05:08:53 [Zakim]
... bigbluehat, astearns, jyasskin
05:08:56 [addison_]
present+
05:09:14 [duerst_]
present+
05:09:45 [Makoto_]
present+
05:09:50 [Bert]
present+
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05:11:06 [marisa]
r12a-again: we've been working with you all and esp ivan - working on some issues related to pub-manifest
05:11:24 [marisa]
... it has features related to language declarations
05:11:51 [marisa]
... your self-review found some issues so you've rewritten some pieces but we haven't had a lot of time to discuss your rewrites
05:11:54 [inamori_]
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05:12:06 [marisa]
... i had a look and perhaps some things need clarification
05:12:29 [marisa]
... the spec doesn't have a lot about language - maybe we can go through it
05:12:30 [laurent]
present+
05:12:44 [NJ]
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05:13:08 [marisa]
... our worldview includes 3 different aspects of declaring lang: 1. you are declaring the actual language of the text in the element on which the lang declaration is placed. this affords for example lang-specific spellcheck
05:13:28 [bobbytung]
present+
05:13:58 [marisa]
... 2. who are the people who are intended users of this text (could be an entire document) - there could be more than one lang value here, e.g. french and english in quebec
05:14:07 [marisa]
... in the same document
05:14:28 [marisa]
... and each lang section is then declared within that doc
05:15:07 [marisa]
... 3. if you are referring to external resources (speech, images, more text), those resources can be said to be for a particular audience (or in a particular language, but that is not as common as indicating audience)
05:15:25 [Yanni]
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05:15:38 [marisa]
... audience vs text processing
05:15:53 [wendyreid]
https://www.w3.org/TR/pub-manifest/#manifest-lang-dir
05:15:53 [romain]
https://w3c.github.io/pub-manifest/#manifest-lang-dir
05:16:52 [marisa]
dauwhe__: pub-manifest is a meta container for actual artifacts
05:17:12 [marisa]
... manifest itself is json, can have metadata about itself as well as about the artifacts it refers to
05:17:14 [romain]
our self review (made by ivan): https://github.com/w3c/pub-manifest/issues/38
05:17:52 [marisa]
r12a-again: i see global and local lang settings
05:18:10 [marisa]
... global is the default lang
05:18:27 [marisa]
... for items within the scope of this context
05:20:32 [marisa]
addison_: i see an inLanguage property that can talk about lang or audience
05:21:09 [marisa]
q+
05:22:22 [dsinger]
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05:22:39 [romain]
q+
05:22:55 [garth]
q?
05:23:02 [wendyreid]
ack marisa
05:23:11 [wendyreid]
ack romain
05:23:14 [dauwhe__]
q?
05:23:39 [marisa]
romain: we want to allow names to be specifiable in multiple scripts - can we use the lang tag for this?
05:23:44 [marisa]
addison_: yes
05:25:08 [marisa]
addison_: "und" subtag can carry script info but no one really looks for that tag
05:25:33 [inamori_]
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05:26:17 [dauwhe__]
q+
05:26:50 [marisa]
r12a-again: intended audience and language may not be 1-1. example of taiwanese-german dictionary, both lang groups won't use it. just one will.
05:26:56 [Makoto_]
+Q
05:26:58 [marisa]
... how does inLanguage work in this case?
05:27:10 [gpellegrino]
q+
05:27:20 [marisa]
wendyreid: primary lang is german and each item in the resource list could have both (assuming it contains both langs)
05:27:27 [marisa]
... inLanguage can be an array
05:29:53 [wendyreid]
ack dauwhe__
05:29:58 [wendyreid]
ack marisa
05:30:01 [wendyreid]
ack Makoto_
05:30:05 [addison_]
q?
05:30:10 [addison_]
q+
05:30:21 [marisa]
Makoto_: is it possible to specify both idiographic representation and hiragana representation for japanese author names and titles, in a compact way
05:30:35 [marisa]
wendyreid: it depends on the field
05:30:49 [marisa]
Makoto_: want to avoid repetition of id and type
05:31:13 [wendyreid]
ack gpellegrino
05:31:17 [marisa]
... e.g. array of title values rather than multiple titles
05:31:31 [marisa]
gpellegrino: schema.org has an audience object
05:31:54 [marisa]
.. the lang metadata in epub - every lang that appears in the document ends up in the OCF
05:32:14 [marisa]
dauwhe__: we're deferring to authoring tools rather than defining behaviors
05:32:34 [marisa]
gpellegrino: assistive tech may want to have a list of all the languages
05:32:38 [wendyreid]
ack addison_
05:32:45 [r12a-again]
q?
05:32:52 [dauwhe__]
q+
05:33:14 [marisa]
addison_: direction - there is a default dir attribute - not sure that auto is going to be that helpful as a value since youre trying to communicate a base direction
05:33:24 [marisa]
... we don't have an item-level direction solution yet
05:33:39 [dauwhe__]
https://w3c.github.io/pub-manifest/#manifest-lang-dir-global
05:34:36 [marisa]
... is there a provision to provide pronunciation fields, to sort things for example for langs like japanese
05:36:33 [Makoto_]
q
05:36:36 [Makoto_]
+q
05:36:43 [wendyreid]
ack Makoto_
05:36:43 [dauwhe__]
q-
05:37:05 [marisa]
Makoto_: for tts of title or author info, we might want to have both SSML and recorded voice for each piece of information. TTS is unreliable in some languages.
05:37:22 [marisa]
... epub3 recently introduced a property for specifying a bit of audio file for the title and author
05:38:13 [marisa]
wendyreid: this came up in audiobooks, we don't have anything for it though
05:38:14 [r12a-again]
q+
05:39:02 [bobbytung]
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05:39:42 [wendyreid]
ack r12a-again
05:40:03 [marisa]
r12a-again: section 2.7.2.9
05:40:17 [marisa]
... publication lang
05:40:42 [marisa]
... seems that you're trying to provide a list of all the langs in the resource
05:41:36 [marisa]
dauwhe__: this was metadata for an intended audience; UAs want to create the environment to display the content before they parse the content themselves; this is a hint that, if this book is for a german speaking audience, having the UA preload the german dictionary might not be a bad idea
05:42:29 [marisa]
r12a-again: maybe make it more clear in the text
05:42:46 [marisa]
addison_: you're using this as information about this book so it should be process-able before opening the book
05:43:00 [marisa]
r12a-again: you could also use it for searching
05:43:14 [marisa]
addison_: a few disjoint use cases - some bound to the content - some bound to the audience metadata
05:43:24 [wendyreid]
q?
05:44:56 [Yanni]
Yanni has joined #pwg
05:46:00 [marisa]
wendyreid: scholarly publications may have a requirement to list all the langs
05:46:02 [dauwhe__]
q+
05:46:13 [bigbluehat]
q+
05:46:27 [marisa]
... profiles can clarify if they need a strict usage
05:46:45 [wendyreid]
ack dauwhe__
05:47:00 [marisa]
dauwhe__: we should prob further clarify this; schema.org not helpful here
05:47:02 [r12a-again]
q+
05:47:07 [wendyreid]
ack bigbluehat
05:47:44 [marisa]
bigbluehat: a wiley use case - we will publish research in english but with multilang titles so it can be found by audiences that speak many languages and want to read english stuff
05:47:57 [marisa]
... i think this use case is taken care of
05:48:53 [wendyreid]
ack r12a-again
05:49:19 [marisa]
r12a-again: do you infer one from the other - language vs inLanguage
05:49:39 [marisa]
wendyreid: see section 2.7.2.9
05:50:17 [marisa]
dauwhe__: let's have a stronger statement here
05:50:31 [laudrain]
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05:50:55 [marisa]
r12a-again: reading progression direction
05:51:27 [marisa]
addison_: binding direction
05:51:48 [dauwhe__]
q+
05:51:50 [marisa]
... vertical text is a difficult case
05:52:10 [bigbluehat]
q+ to mention Ralph mentioned leaving this open to other directionality
05:52:21 [DavidClarke]
q+
05:52:29 [JuanCorona]
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05:52:30 [marisa]
dauwhe__: ereaders give additional complications - top to bottom, bottom to top - individual html resources may be paginated in diff directions
05:52:58 [marisa]
addison_: recommend setting overall page progression direction, tied to default dir of book, tells you things about cover image
05:54:04 [romain]
q?
05:54:07 [marisa]
dauwhe__: must avoid a situation where we have unreachable content
05:54:21 [bigbluehat]
q-
05:54:24 [marisa]
r12a-again: one book could be bound in both directions, e.g. in flight magazines
05:54:28 [inamori_]
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05:54:31 [dauwhe__]
ack dau
05:54:36 [wendyreid]
ack DavidClarke
05:54:50 [marisa]
DavidClarke: ltr, rtl - consider top- and bottom-bound as well
05:54:52 [wendyreid]
q+
05:54:57 [dauwhe__]
q+
05:55:00 [wendyreid]
ack wendyreid
05:55:12 [marisa]
wendyreid: we have an open issue for this
05:55:17 [bigbluehat]
q+
05:55:56 [marisa]
... UAs might render as a scrolling experience rather than paginated ltr/rtl
05:56:11 [marisa]
... UAs might be unable to render in the specified modality
05:56:26 [marisa]
addison_: do you describe the writing mode of the book? or infer it?
05:56:32 [marisa]
dauwhe__: historically no
05:57:20 [laurent]
q+
05:57:34 [wendyreid]
ack dauwhe__
05:57:54 [wendyreid]
ack bigbluehat
05:59:04 [wendyreid]
ack laurent
06:01:00 [laurent]
https://github.com/readium/readium-css/wiki/Internationalization,-pagination-and-user-settings
06:03:01 [dsinger]
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06:03:06 [dsinger]
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06:03:23 [r12a-again]
q+
06:03:26 [laurent]
in this document, we describe how the primary language inLanguage is used by usar agents
06:03:34 [wendyreid]
ack r12a-again
06:07:20 [marisa]
r12a-again: seems like you're ok
06:07:36 [marisa]
... a couple ambiguities
06:07:55 [marisa]
wendyreid: we will clarify a few things - primary lang, default direction, spoken alternatives
06:08:23 [CharlesL]
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06:08:25 [marisa]
addison_: asking wider community to support, e.g. adding direction metadata to JSON
06:09:16 [marisa]
[i18n leaves]
06:10:04 [bigbluehat]
scribenick: bigbluehat
06:10:09 [bigbluehat]
Topic: TAG Time!
06:10:34 [Yanni]
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06:10:41 [bigbluehat]
sangwhan: you may have heard of the TAG. We review all the specs here at the W3C
06:10:59 [bigbluehat]
...we reviewed these, and we had some concern about these specs not connecting to the rest of the Web
06:11:18 [bigbluehat]
...it didn't seem that audiobooks was connected to the rest of the Web
06:11:26 [bigbluehat]
...the media group had a similar situation
06:11:36 [bigbluehat]
...and didn't seem to connect with the rest of the Web
06:11:40 [bigbluehat]
q+
06:11:50 [dauwhe__]
scribe+ dauwhe
06:11:50 [bigbluehat]
...it would be great to have a general chapter and playlist format
06:12:00 [bigbluehat]
...and talking to the media group would be a great way to accomplish that
06:12:12 [bigbluehat]
...the media group is meeting on thursday and friday, so maybe you all can sync up
06:12:20 [bigbluehat]
...the other topic is packaging
06:12:23 [marisa]
q+
06:12:29 [bigbluehat]
...google recently released something called bundled exchanges
06:12:44 [bigbluehat]
...which is better for this group than signed exchanges
06:12:58 [bigbluehat]
...because of the absolutely pointless 7 day certificate expiration
06:13:06 [bigbluehat]
...at least for this group's use case that doesn't make sense
06:13:11 [romain]
spec ref: https://wicg.github.io/webpackage/draft-yasskin-wpack-bundled-exchanges.html
06:13:15 [bigbluehat]
dauwhe__: no, we want people to pay use every 7 days
06:13:18 [bigbluehat]
room: <laughter>
06:13:27 [jyasskin]
romain: Oh hai. What's up?
06:13:31 [bigbluehat]
sangwhan: we'd love to help you all work with google on bundled exchanges
06:13:43 [bigbluehat]
...as we'd like to see how these things progress and get your help to file issues, etc.
06:14:08 [bigbluehat]
...if you have questions about what the TAG is or in particular this topic of bundled exchanges
06:14:11 [bigbluehat]
...I'm happy to answer
06:14:18 [wendyreid]
ack bigbluehat
06:14:28 [dauwhe__]
bigbluehat: one general ask... you mention the rest of the web
06:14:39 [dauwhe__]
... does the tag have a definition of the web? what the boundaries are?
06:14:48 [dauwhe__]
... we have things that use http, hypermedia etc
06:14:53 [dauwhe__]
... like rest APIs
06:15:08 [dauwhe__]
... but sometimes these things are not part of the web, according to some browserfolks
06:15:18 [dauwhe__]
... web of things is not a browser thing, but is a web thing
06:15:23 [dauwhe__]
... and publishing is a similar opportunity
06:15:31 [bigbluehat]
sangwhan: that's a tricky question I'd say
06:15:36 [dauwhe__]
q+
06:15:44 [bigbluehat]
...we don't have a hard line about what is the Web and what is not the Web
06:15:50 [bigbluehat]
...for publishing that line is fuzzy
06:16:00 [romain]
another very good read for this group, the report on the ESCAP workshop held in July: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-thomson-escape-report
06:16:05 [bigbluehat]
...you can't load ebook's in browsers
06:16:13 [romain]
s/ESCAP/ESCAPE/
06:16:16 [bigbluehat]
...unless it's in a weird extension thing
06:16:23 [bigbluehat]
...it would be nicer to bridge these things together
06:16:33 [bigbluehat]
...I believe it opens a new window
06:16:43 [bigbluehat]
laurent: it does. others don't
06:16:49 [bigbluehat]
sangwhan: I want interoperability
06:17:01 [bigbluehat]
...if it can't interop with the rest of the Web, then I don't consider it part of the Web
06:17:02 [bigbluehat]
q?
06:17:08 [wendyreid]
ack marisa
06:17:09 [laurent]
q+
06:17:16 [bigbluehat]
marisa: so you mentioned going to the media group
06:17:23 [bigbluehat]
...I've been working on synchronized media
06:17:30 [bigbluehat]
...we're sort of a variant of audiobooks that sync text and audio
06:17:47 [bigbluehat]
...I've gone on many wild goose chases in other groups only to find what we're doing is unique
06:17:59 [bigbluehat]
...so if there are specific things you see overlap, that would help us target our work
06:18:10 [bigbluehat]
sangwhan: chapter and section metadata would be something to collaborate on
06:18:16 [bigbluehat]
...timing is also a key concern
06:18:25 [bigbluehat]
...audiobooks are also interested in that
06:18:28 [wendyreid]
ack dauwhe__
06:18:33 [bigbluehat]
...there is overlap which is why I'm here
06:18:40 [bigbluehat]
dauwhe__: we sort of have short term goals and long term goals
06:18:54 [jyasskin]
q+
06:18:58 [bigbluehat]
...all of us are here because we see the power of the web
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06:19:07 [bigbluehat]
...and we see publications being linkable and publishable across the web
06:19:18 [bigbluehat]
...we also have short term business cases for audiobooks
06:19:26 [bigbluehat]
...we'd like to stop emailing files and shipping hard drives
06:19:40 [bigbluehat]
...and having loads of middle-folks converting files and remaking formats
06:19:52 [bigbluehat]
...there is indeed value in keeping long term goals in mind while we address the short term needs
06:20:00 [bigbluehat]
...that's why I hope we can take something from what the TAG is telling us
06:20:15 [bigbluehat]
...and even if we don't get there immediately, I don't want us to road block our future work "on the Web"
06:20:22 [bigbluehat]
...even if these are not accessed via HTTP
06:20:30 [bigbluehat]
...we don't want to start over when we get here
06:20:56 [wendyreid]
ack laurent
06:21:06 [bigbluehat]
laurent: before we discuss with the media entertainment group
06:21:18 [bigbluehat]
...I would like more details about why the TAG thinks what we're doing not on or for the Web
06:21:22 [bigbluehat]
...the model can work on and off the Web
06:21:23 [inamori_]
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06:21:33 [bigbluehat]
...on the Web, you've got a link to an HTML page which can include a polyfill
06:21:45 [bigbluehat]
...it loads a JSON manifest, it then creates the menu, and plays the contents
06:21:51 [bigbluehat]
...show table of contents, etc.
06:21:58 [bigbluehat]
...how is this not on the Web
06:22:13 [bigbluehat]
sangwhan: I'm not trying to invalidate what the group has done
06:22:25 [bigbluehat]
...the plumbing conversation is one of them
06:22:33 [bigbluehat]
...the media group is about playing
06:22:45 [bigbluehat]
...and I don't see how this content and those APIs will be bound together
06:22:48 [dauwhe__]
q?
06:22:52 [bigbluehat]
wendyreid: one thing I'll point out
06:23:03 [bigbluehat]
...turns out I've been talking to them about MediaSessions with them for awhile
06:23:16 [bigbluehat]
...we have been in touch with them, and we will certainly find out where they don't align
06:23:25 [bigbluehat]
...I've already asked if we're colliding or aligning
06:23:37 [bigbluehat]
...I do plan to check in this week also
06:23:44 [bigbluehat]
...obviously we want that work to align with ours
06:23:52 [wendyreid]
ack jyasskin
06:24:11 [bigbluehat]
jyasskin: we're from the team that is specing and building the Web Packaging work
06:24:28 [bigbluehat]
...so I wanted to let you know I'm here to be available for questions etc
06:24:39 [bigbluehat]
sangwhan: file bugs while things are in the works
06:24:59 [bigbluehat]
jyasskin: we're designing it to be proposed to the IETF in November
06:25:07 [bigbluehat]
...and they'll certainly be changing it when they begin work in the next year
06:25:19 [wendyreid]
3:13 PM <romain> spec ref: https://wicg.github.io/webpackage/draft-yasskin-wpack-bundled-exchanges.html
06:25:21 [bigbluehat]
...the integration with fetch() is not written down yet
06:25:22 [bigbluehat]
q+
06:25:24 [CharlesL]
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06:25:36 [bigbluehat]
kumiko: we are also trying to make it easier
06:25:41 [wendyreid]
ack bigbluehat
06:25:54 [jyasskin]
s/kumiko/kinuko/
06:26:25 [romain]
links to the sister specs (signed exchanges) and explainer are in the gh repo readme: https://github.com/WICG/webpackage
06:28:13 [wendyreid]
bigbluehat: [super smart questions I forgot to scribe]
06:28:52 [bigbluehat]
s/[super smart questions I forgot to scribe]/ can these bundles (or signed exchanges) be loaded directly without using fetch()?
06:28:59 [bigbluehat]
jyasskin: yes. that's something we're working on
06:29:10 [bigbluehat]
dauwhe__: [super smart questions that dauwhe__ needs to write here]
06:30:04 [bigbluehat]
wendyreid: come tomorrow the Web Packaging breakout for more!
06:30:07 [bigbluehat]
sangwhan: yes. be there.
06:30:16 [bigbluehat]
wendyreid: we need things to last longer than 7 days
06:30:53 [bigbluehat]
jyasskin: yes. you can do that with bundling, and we're working on making APIs available in a special security context (possibly)
06:30:58 [bigbluehat]
dauwhe__: we do need storage access
06:31:01 [bigbluehat]
jyasskin: because?
06:31:15 [bigbluehat]
dauwhe__: we do have books where one fills out quizes or adds content to customize the book
06:31:26 [bigbluehat]
...and in epub readers now that doesn't stick or work at all really
06:31:32 [bigbluehat]
...so we'd like to have that available
06:31:54 [bigbluehat]
wendyreid: thanks to sangwhan (TAG) and jyasskin and kinuko (Web Packaging) for joining!
06:32:18 [duga]
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07:10:20 [romain]
scribe+
07:10:40 [MasakazuKitahara]
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07:11:48 [romain]
topic: testing and implementation
07:12:07 [marisa]
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07:12:12 [romain]
wendyreid: I think we nailed down what we need to do, now we need people to do it
07:12:18 [romain]
… 3 main groups of people
07:12:25 [JuanCorona]
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07:12:44 [romain]
… 1. people to investigate whether we need smaller schemas or if we can use one super schema
07:12:53 [romain]
laurent: I can
07:12:57 [romain]
bigbluehat: I'll help
07:13:33 [romain]
wendyreid: 2. people who can break down the specs into MUST/SHOULD statements
07:13:52 [romain]
… /me it's bullshould
07:13:56 [jroque]
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07:14:09 [romain]
s$… /me it's bullshould$$
07:14:33 [romain]
… we're probably gonna do it in Google Docs
07:14:41 [bigbluehat]
q+
07:14:42 [romain]
JuanCorona: I can help
07:14:56 [wendyreid]
ack bigbluehat
07:15:09 [romain]
bigbluehat: it's nothing harder than copy/pasting those in a doc, initially
07:15:27 [romain]
… the hardest part is keeping it up to date with the specs
07:15:52 [romain]
JuanCorona: I'm volunteering to write a bot for it
07:16:17 [Makoto_]
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07:16:34 [romain]
q+
07:16:38 [wendyreid]
ack romain
07:16:54 [Makoto_]
<dinner>Is somebody interested in sashimi and Japanese sake today?</dinner>
07:16:57 [romain]
romain: what about Matt's idea of splitting the spec into chunks to distribute the work
07:17:12 [romain]
wendyreid: sure, we don't expect 1 people to work on everything
07:17:52 [romain]
… 3. people who can deal with the UA specific use case testing (behavior testing?)
07:18:09 [romain]
duga: I volunteer to find MUST/SHOULD in a section of the specs
07:18:22 [romain]
romain: me too
07:20:49 [gpellegrino]
q+
07:21:23 [romain]
gpellegrino: we made some Web Pub a month ago, maybe I can turn it in a test file
07:21:27 [wendyreid]
ack gpellegrino
07:21:35 [bigbluehat]
q+
07:21:40 [romain]
… I already tested it with VivlioStyle reader
07:21:41 [wendyreid]
ack bigbluehat
07:21:57 [romain]
bigbluehat: we do need publications to test on the JSON side *and* the UA side
07:22:12 [romain]
gpellegrino: the Web Pub profile or the JSON only?
07:22:24 [romain]
bigbluehat: the JSON is all we need for the manifest tests
07:23:55 [Makoto_]
<dinner>These restaurants look nice. https://retty.me/area/PRE40/ARE130/SUB13001/100001245639/ and https://retty.me/area/PRE40/ARE130/SUB13001/100000920767/
07:25:28 [romain]
[discussion about URL having to dereference to a resource, and how it's wrong]
07:25:47 [gpellegrino]
q+
07:26:03 [wendyreid]
ack gpellegrino
07:26:05 [romain]
[in section 2.7.1.5 https://w3c.github.io/pub-manifest/#value-url]
07:26:14 [romain]
gpellegrino: what is the timeline for this work?
07:26:45 [romain]
wendyreid: need to double check with Ivan, but we want to transition to CR at the end of this month
07:26:53 [romain]
… but we can write tests during CR
07:27:12 [romain]
… we'd like to have tests in the next 1.5 month, to have implementors looking at these tests
07:27:34 [romain]
s$<dinner>These restaurants look nice. https://retty.me/area/PRE40/ARE130/SUB13001/100001245639/ and https://retty.me/area/PRE40/ARE130/SUB13001/100000920767/$$
07:28:19 [romain]
bigbluehat: I really don't see how we can have testable spec without UA guidance in Audiobooks
07:28:35 [romain]
wendyreid: right, we'll need to address that
07:29:18 [romain]
Makoto_: what's the status of the current spec?
07:29:27 [romain]
wendyreid: it's a public working draft
07:29:35 [romain]
Makoto_: did the director approve it?
07:29:49 [romain]
dauwhe_: we got it for the FPWD, don't need it for other PWD
07:31:24 [romain]
wendyreid: we did a lot of work over these past two days
07:31:38 [romain]
… I want to thank everyone!
07:31:59 [romain]
… we have an approach for testing, we'll get everything we need for CR by the end of the month
07:32:13 [urata__]
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07:32:15 [romain]
… I'll make sure we can get started with the tests
07:32:17 [dauwhe_]
FOR THE MINUTES WENDY IS AN AWESOME CHAIR
07:32:28 [romain]
… thanks to everyone who volunteered to help
07:32:39 [romain]
@dauwhe_ +1000!!
07:33:13 [romain]
wendyreid: interesting discussion with i18n, awesome and exciting progress and demo on sync media (thx marisa!)
07:33:33 [romain]
… unless anyone has anything else, meeting adjourned
07:33:43 [romain]
[cue general kumbaya]
07:34:01 [romain]
[round of applause for our awesome chair]
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07:38:28 [ivan]
rrsagent, draft minutes
07:38:28 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/16-pwg-minutes.html ivan
07:38:28 [ivan]
zakim, bye
07:38:28 [ivan]
rrsagent, bye
07:38:28 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items
07:38:28 [Zakim]
leaving. As of this point the attendees have been MasakazuKitahara, Jemma, laudrain, Ralph, JunGamo, CharlesL, Rachel, gpellegrino, toshiakikoike, bigbluehat, ZoeBijl, romain,
07:38:28 [Zakim]
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